On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:27:28 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

7v gives you less distortion at higher volts from head unit.cleaner
power...less stess on the unit.
afew others also if i thunk hard .example, you can run ya unit at 70% of
power n get 4.9volts from 7v. weeee

Bzzt - wrong answer. First, the preouts provide virtually no "stress"
on a head unit, regardless of the voltage They provide almost no
current to the amplifiers because of the extremely high input
impedence on the amplifier.

As for the benefits of 7V preouts, there are pretty much none. Let's
say that your head unit has 2V preouts, and the EQ bumps that up to
7V. Whatever noise is present in the signal from the head unit is
going to be amplified as well. But even if the EQ could amplify the
signal 3.5 times (7V divided by 2V) without amplifying the noise, or
adding any noise of its own, the only benefit would be a *theoretical*
increase of 5.4 dB in the signal-to-noise ratio. (10 * log(3.5)).

The problem is, almost any modern head unit already has a
signal-to-noise ratio of 90 dB or higher. 90 dB is equivalent to one
part noise in one BILLION parts music. If you managed to bump the S/N
ratio up to 95.4 dB, that would be about one part noise per 3.5
billion parts music. Do you think you can tell the difference between
a S/N ratio of 90 and a S/N ratio of 95.4 dB? Guess what, you can't.

About the only thing that having 7V preouts is going to mean to you is
that you're going to have to turn the gains way down on your amplifier
to keep them from clipping anytime you have the head unit volume above
20% or so. Your amps won't play any louder or any cleaner with the
higher input voltage.

All this silliness with ultra-high voltage preouts is almost strictly
a car-audio marketing phenomenon. That's why home and professional
audio gear (even the very best stuff) is still standardized on the old
0.7V preouts. In case you hadn't ever though about it, that's why you
don't have gain controls on home amplifiers - the amplifier knows that
the CD player, tape deck, or DVD player connected to it will have the
standard 0.7V preamp-level signal coming out of it, so the gain
doesn't have to be adjustable.



--
Scott Gardner

"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's sometimes hard to remember that your original mission was to drain the swamp."

30band...lol
thats funny...thats too much...and yes you can change your sound but
your reciever, tuner, power supply, wiring and 10 other things can screw
you up. so just because you have that means NOTHING........


Guess you don't know how to EQ do you. You set up a RTA with a
calibrated flat response mic and EQ the actual audio heard by your ears.
Compensates for your wire, speakers etc. within reason. But if you are
using noisy garbage HU, Amps etc. nothing will fix that.

Bah! You don't need an RTA. In fact, don't use an RTA. It'll only bias
matters for you.

In an ideal world, a 30-band (or more) EQ is a very good thing to have.
It'll compensate for any global frequency response dips and peaks your
system exhibits due to the speakers, car, or listener positioning. If you
can get one that can store presets, even better. Your EQ adjustments will
often be radically different based on ambient conditions (eg. windows
up/down, AC full blast or off, even people in the passenger seat...).

However, *in addition* to the 30-band EQ, I also recommend an in-dash EQ for
fine-tune adjustment of the various music one may listen to. Let's be real
here - not all music sounds the same or is mixed and mastered the same.
It's obscene not to be able to control certain aspects of the music, unless
the person listens to the same CD all the time. Bass and treble controls in
most head units are not enough. The number of bands of in-dash equalization
that one should use should basically be the maximum you can realistically
adjust when driving [it's hard as hell to adjust 30 bands while driving -
yes, I've done it].

Jim Savery
Global Customer Support Manager
BEHRINGER The Americas
BEHRINGER USA, Inc
Tel: +01-425-672-0816 x 111
Direct Dial: +01-425-939-3216
Fax: +01-425-673-7647
IP Phone Ext: 5024




"MZ" wrote in message
...
I haven't had any failures in the feild. As for comm syncing check to
be sure you have the latest firmware, I THINK there may be a revision
to correct that.

Yep, latest firmware.

The static issue drives me crazy. At one point, I tried putting new
silicone down to hold the ribbon cable in place a bit better, which seemed
to do the trick at first but then it started doing it again. I checked
the
silicone and it's still holding.

You don't happen to have an email or phone number for Jim Savery, do you?

tapes.....god i miss them..chrome tapes are close to cd quality..thats
all i used was chrome..i do have afrew metal tapes.....
It too me many years to make all those tapes i have......

Ha shows you know nothing about car audio jethro..my Sherwood xat-3000
over 11 yrs old was 1 of the first 1ohm stabe amps on this planet....oh
is rf-kicker-hifonics 1ohm stable yet??? hAHAhAHAhA........
I think Sherwood stop making them..too expensive to mass produce......

scott bbbbuuzzz wrong.....wear n stress doesnt provide stress on every
part of a unit that carries electricity....hmmm
I should call nasa n inform them......they have it all wrong..lol
Nothing is the same from home to car audio....
too....jsyk

scott..i went up from 3.5v to 5v out puts..It changed my life.......
You can get a $500, 3v unit offer a trade to my $139, jensen 5v
unit..ill tell you some thing i decided not to type here...but it ends
in go ____ yourself.... lol. wwweeeeee

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 06:13:36 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

scott..i went up from 3.5v to 5v out puts..It changed my life.......
You can get a $500, 3v unit offer a trade to my $139, jensen 5v
unit..ill tell you some thing i decided not to type here...but it ends
in go ____ yourself.... lol. wwweeeeee

Unless you can compare two head units that are identical in every way
except for pre-out voltage, you have no idea why the 5V unit sounded
better. If everything else about the head units is the same, the only
advantage of the 5V unit is that the S/N ratio will **theoretically**
be 1.5 dB higher when compared to the 3.5V unit..

A lot of this foolishness started with the Alpine 7909. It had 4V
preouts, making it one of the first high-voltage car head units. It
was also widely considered to be a great-sounding unit. But it wasn't
a good-sounding unit *becuase* it had high-voltage preouts, it was a
good sounding unit that *also* had high-voltage preouts.

But since then, the "more-is-better" mentality has taken over, and
consumers blindly accept that if 2V preouts are good, then 4V, 5V or
8V simply *must* be better,right?
--
Scott Gardner

"If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains."

scott i know all that..i know other things count too. but 5-8v is
great...i myself would only use 5v-6v tops.not to damage the 8 amps i
have already......alot of amps have trouble with over 5v.
but jensen i dont think is in the top 5 headunits with overal specs.So
the increase in volts had to make it better....
But it does sound awsome over all....
go ((((JENSENNNNNNN)))))

also lets say ya battery wears down alil if you got 7v outs.youll at
least get 5v....weeeeee
if you got 4v then youll get 3v....something like that....

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:55:19 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

also lets say ya battery wears down alil if you got 7v outs.youll at
least get 5v....weeeeee
if you got 4v then youll get 3v....something like that....

This is wrong for so many reasons, I literally don't know were to
start...

--
Scott Gardner

"Question _your own_ authority."

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:34:53 -0400, Scott Gardner
wrote:

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:55:19 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

also lets say ya battery wears down alil if you got 7v outs.youll at
least get 5v....weeeeee
if you got 4v then youll get 3v....something like that....

This is wrong for so many reasons, I literally don't know were to
start...

Damn typos. should be "where to start", obviously.


--
Scott Gardner

"A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five."

so scott you get 100% of specs from stereo no matter what your battery
is doing..Boy Scott you are amazing......

What's so special about being stable down to one ohm?

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, bob wald wrote:

Ha shows you know nothing about car audio jethro..my Sherwood xat-3000
over 11 yrs old was 1 of the first 1ohm stabe amps on this planet....oh
is rf-kicker-hifonics 1ohm stable yet??? hAHAhAHAhA........
I think Sherwood stop making them..too expensive to mass produce......

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, bob wald wrote:
also lets say ya battery wears down alil if you got 7v outs.youll at
least get 5v....weeeeee
if you got 4v then youll get 3v....something like that....

If your battery "wears down", it won't change the output voltage of the
unit. The gain is independent of the supply voltage.

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:34:46 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

so scott you get 100% of specs from stereo no matter what your battery
is doing..Boy Scott you are amazing......

No, the points I was going to make we

1) We don't know how the preout voltage is regulated. It's entirely
possible that you could still get full output from them right up to
the moment that the head unit shuts down from undervoltage.

2) Having a higher preout voltage isn't going to help you maintain a
particular volume level longer, because the battery voltage to the
amplifier is going to be dropping as well. Plus, don't forget that
you had to lower the gain on the amp when you installed the
higher-preout-voltage head unit in the first place.

3) If your battery voltage is dropping to the point that you're
losing a third or more of the voltage on your preouts, you should turn
the frickin' stereo off anyway!


--
Scott Gardner

"The war isn't the war between the blacks and the whites, the liberals and the conservatives, or the Federation and the Romulans. It's between the clueful and the clueless." (an anonymous poster on cypherpunks list)

Man, I think something went wrong... DC on pin one? Pin one should be
tied to the 3rd prong of the AC inlet. Often times all I/O grounds are
buffered thru a low ohmage, low wattage resistor to chasis ground.
This is done on many pro devices especially in cases where there could
be a lifted neutral on distro (power feed) This could turn the sheild
of drive cables into the neutral, especially since opposite stage feeds
are typically balanced between phases to leep the load proper. the
resistor simply fails.

Is the 3rd pin of your inverter chasis ground? Does it drive 60 volts
above and below chasis groiund or 120V down to chasis? Did you do some
grounding changes after the processor install? Is it (inverter)
Isolated to the point where you could drive the neutral into ground (of
car) Don't want to float the chasis up to 60V or higher. Expierienced
that in a non-staked (earth grounded) tour bus wille holding onto the
door and stepping into a puddle (drunk). "I became the true ground!"

Lets say that pin 3 is tied to ground on the unbalanced in/out. This
will try to drive UP ungrounded devices, even worse, biases the op-amps
high. That would cause some big-time static, having DC floating around
the unit. I suspect the DC on pin one is the root of all problems.
Start at the AC input and go from there....... People using the early
homebrew DC/DC converters were expierinncing the same problems and had
to use trannys all over the ins and outs (very expensive!) I think
there's an easier solutuion. I really wish I was at that point of my
install to be able to assist. (I have just CHOSEN speakers, and the
amp, finally)

Get that chasis ground down to the car chasis and if it still floats,
then somehow those buffer resistors could be shot.

Man, I'm beat.. Please read thru the spelling and gram errors. I've
pulled 2 acres of cattle fence out and can barely think and move.

I'll try to re-read and try to shoot you an e-mail early this week,
work has been rough, no monkeys, just professors

Chad

Man, I think something went wrong... DC on pin one? Pin one should be
tied to the 3rd prong of the AC inlet. Often times all I/O grounds are
buffered thru a low ohmage, low wattage resistor to chasis ground.
This is done on many pro devices especially in cases where there could
be a lifted neutral on distro (power feed) This could turn the sheild
of drive cables into the neutral, especially since opposite stage feeds
are typically balanced between phases to leep the load proper. the
resistor simply fails.

Is the 3rd pin of your inverter chasis ground?

Yes, it's grounded. It doesn't make much sense to me either, because one
afternoon I did the following tests:

1. check resistance between chassis ground and third prong = 0 ohms.
2. verify that third prong on rackmount outlet strip is tied to ground with
a meter (it's physically tied to ground too - oh yeah, and the surge
suppressor crap is removed from the strip).
3. check resistance between rack rails and ground = 0 ohms (also tied
directly to ground).

But the DC offset problem appears when I either remove the rack rails from
the ground or when I remove the processor from the rack. The other
processor doesn't show any of these symptoms.

I haven't had a chance to look closer, but the lack of logic screams loose
connection somewhere.


Does it drive 60 volts
above and below chasis groiund or 120V down to chasis?

Don't know.

Did you do some
grounding changes after the processor install?

Nope.

Is it (inverter)
Isolated to the point where you could drive the neutral into ground (of
car) Don't want to float the chasis up to 60V or higher. Expierienced
that in a non-staked (earth grounded) tour bus wille holding onto the
door and stepping into a puddle (drunk). "I became the true ground!"

What do you mean? All ground points meet at a distro block directly tied to
the battery negative.

Lets say that pin 3 is tied to ground on the unbalanced in/out. This
will try to drive UP ungrounded devices, even worse, biases the op-amps
high. That would cause some big-time static, having DC floating around
the unit. I suspect the DC on pin one is the root of all problems.

I don't think so. For two reasons: 1) I can eliminate the DC bias and the
problem still persists; 2) Both units are exhibiting static whereas only one
is showing a DC issue. Also, when I got into one of the units, I could
cause the problem and eliminate it simply by tapping or slightly moving the
ribbon cable carrying analog information to the outputs board. Whether the
cable itself is shot or the connectors, I don't know. Obviously, since it's
still under warranty, I'm not going to try to figure that out.

Start at the AC input and go from there....... People using the early
homebrew DC/DC converters were expierinncing the same problems and had
to use trannys all over the ins and outs (very expensive!) I think
there's an easier solutuion. I really wish I was at that point of my
install to be able to assist. (I have just CHOSEN speakers, and the
amp, finally)

What'd you choose?

By the way, I've decided to homebrew two amplifiers - not kits, my own
designs. Of course, various elements will be borrowed from the audio
literature (eg. Wireless World, jAES, as well as that Randy Slone book I
really like - even though it contrasts with Doug Self's book which I
recently finished). So nothing groundbreaking or exotic really.


Get that chasis ground down to the car chasis and if it still floats,
then somehow those buffer resistors could be shot.

Man, I'm beat.. Please read thru the spelling and gram errors. I've
pulled 2 acres of cattle fence out and can barely think and move.

I'll try to re-read and try to shoot you an e-mail early this week,
work has been rough, no monkeys, just professors

What's the difference?

scott i never said a third....nice try to over state what i said..i said
like 19% power loss...

"MZ" wrote in message
news
I don't think so. For two reasons: 1) I can eliminate the DC bias and the
problem still persists; 2) Both units are exhibiting static whereas only
one
is showing a DC issue. Also, when I got into one of the units, I could
cause the problem and eliminate it simply by tapping or slightly moving
the
ribbon cable carrying analog information to the outputs board. Whether
the
cable itself is shot or the connectors, I don't know. Obviously, since
it's
still under warranty, I'm not going to try to figure that out.


Yeah, I would just get ahold of Behringer, there are different failure
modes, seems strange!

.. (I have just CHOSEN speakers, and the
amp, finally)

What'd you choose?

Morel MDT12 tweets (flanges lathed down to fit stock pod)

Seas CA18RNX mids (7")

Peerless XLS or Dayton Reference sub (Dayton is a little cheaper but brand
spanking new)

Phoenix Gold XS6600 amp, older unit, will do internal banpass crossovers
(very few do!) until I can figure out processing. Can be had new in box for
cheap now.


By the way, I've decided to homebrew two amplifiers - not kits, my own
designs. Of course, various elements will be borrowed from the audio
literature (eg. Wireless World, jAES, as well as that Randy Slone book I
really like - even though it contrasts with Doug Self's book which I
recently finished). So nothing groundbreaking or exotic really.


You have bigger balls than I do.... Well I have a kid, concentration gets
broken often I enjoy amp building but now that I'm older I like playing
with tubes, Dunno, maybe I don't like keeping up on the cutting edge
semiconductors...... Or maybe i have spent soooo long repairing them that I
am burnt out. Seems the market is reforming, AF AND RF transistors are
being discontinued and re-invented at an alarming rate. Some very popular
Toshiba devices are being phased out and I have 2 racks full of amps that
utilize this family of devices. I am in the process of buying as many as I
feel I will need for rebuilds in the future


work has been rough, no monkeys, just professors

What's the difference?

We expect Professors to be able to operate A/V equipment

Chad

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 04:31:47 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

scott i never said a third....nice try to over state what i said..i said
like 19% power loss...

The two examples you gave (7V dropping to 5V and 4V dropping to 3V)
are reductions of 28.5% and 25%, respectively. So maybe I should have
rounded down to "a quarter" instead up to "a third", but my point is
still valid. If you're losing that much voltage because of battery
problems, your stereo is the LEAST of your worries.

--
Scott Gardner

"One tentacle, one vote."

every battery ever made after about 50days use doesnt hold 100%
charge.....i dout 93%...

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:13:22 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

every battery ever made after about 50days use doesnt hold 100%
charge.....i dout 93%...


There you go with your bull****, overly-precise statistics. Why "50
days"?? Why not an even 60 or 90 days? And how the hell do you
figure exactly 93%? I'd love to see the math behind that one. I'm
not going to hold my breath though, since I know you just pulled those
numbers out of your ass anyway. Don't you know that
excessively-precise statistics are almost a dead giveaway that someone
is full of ****?

But just for grins, I dare you to show us any kind of reasonable
mathematical calculations that leads you to predict a 7% capacity loss
after 50 days.

Besides, you're confusing the point. A battery that loses a little
bit of its capacity over time is NEVER going to cause the kind of
voltage drops that you described in your post. As you already know,
it's the alternator and voltage regulator that determine the
electrical system voltage anyway. Having a battery that's a few
months old isn't going to change your electrical system voltage one
bit, much less enough to drop your preout voltages more than 25%, to
use the numbers from your earlier post.

You're full of ****, and now you're squirming. Stop it.



--
Scott Gardner

"I was an hour late to work today, but I'll leave an hour early to make up for it."

It may not hold the power for as long.. But if it doesnt hold the same
voltage, somethings terrbily wrong with that battery.


"bob wald" wrote in message
...
every battery ever made after about 50days use doesnt hold 100%
charge.....i dout 93%...

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:41:11 GMT, "Kirby"
wrote:

It may not hold the power for as long.. But if it doesnt hold the same
voltage, somethings terrbily wrong with that battery.



True, and different car batteries have different capacities to begin
with anyway. It's not uncommon to see capacities ranging from 25 to
75 amp-hours, but that doesn't affect the battery voltage or the
alternator/regulator voltage one bit.

Bob is just grasping at straws, trying to find a situation that would
cause the big drops in head unit preout voltage that he predicted in
an earlier post. And trying to come up with an example of dropping
preout voltages in the first place was just a misguided, desperate
attempt to demonstrate the "advantages" of 7-volt preouts.

As you can tell, he doesn't have a strong technical background in
mathematics, physics, or electronics, so he's just flopping about like
a fish out of water, trying to come up with situations that justify
his statements, and using super-precise statistics to try to bluff us.


--
Scott Gardner

"It's not necessary to lose your soul in this business, but a certain amount of damage will be done to it"

ok 60days.....i'm trying to tell you a fact.every1 knows after 90days
batterys dont hold 100% or like it was new...but its more like 50-60days
i think...

scott you are getting stuck of numbers to much....okk is getting a 15%
drop in power ok ? 25%,29% whatever...its all the same principal.

scott. i am right.you WRONG again.....batterys dont stay the same though
use....
just admit it..i am the car gear guy.... hAHahAHAHahaHa......
you remind me of those brainless kids at sd board.....
bask in my greatness.....that is i. the car gear guy.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:03:49 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

ok 60days.....i'm trying to tell you a fact.every1 knows after 90days
batterys dont hold 100% or like it was new...but its more like 50-60days
i think...

How about settling it once and for all and showing us some empirical
evidence or reasonable mathematical estimations that would explain
this?

It's true that batteries lose some of their capacity over time, and
it's also true that if frogs had machine guns, snakes wouldn't ****
with them. It's true, but it's not relevant to the conversation.

A slight loss in battery capacity over time, no matter how many days
it takes or what the exact percent loss is, will NOT change the
voltage in your car's electrical system, and it will not even BEGIN to
affect the preout voltages from your head unit, which is what started
this whole "weak battery lowering your voltage" bull**** in the first
place.



--
Scott Gardner

"Tis an ill wind that blows no minds."

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:19:00 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

scott you are getting stuck of numbers to much....okk is getting a 15%
drop in power ok ? 25%,29% whatever...its all the same principal.

Except that the actual number is almost exactly ZERO, and there's a
big ****ing difference between 25% and 0%.

The simple truth is, an aging battery won't lower the voltage of your
car's electrical system unless the battery's failed completely, and
it certainly won't lower your head unit's preout voltage - not 15%,
not 25%, and not 29%.

And even if the preamp voltage DID drop, having higher-voltage preamp
outputs isn't going to help anyway, because when you switched to the
higher-voltage preamp, you had to reduce the amplifier input gain to
match.

The overall gain between the laser pickup or radio receiver in the
head unit and the amplification stage of the amp will always be the
same, regardless of whether you use 2V, 4V, or 7V preamp outputs.
Increasing the gain of the preamp just means that you'll have to
reduce the gain of the amplifier input stage.


--
Scott Gardner

"I don't delude myself - my job is to kill people and break their stuff."

bob wald Wrote:
scott. i am right.you WRONG again.....batterys dont stay the same
though
use....
just admit it..i am the car gear guy.... hAHahAHAHahaHa......
you remind me of those brainless kids at sd board.....
bask in my greatness.....that is i. the car gear guy.

bob, you are a waste of bandwidth...


--
Jethro

[(Vas/Vbox)+1]^.5 * Qts or Fs
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scott 0 n 15% n 25% isnt alike..meaning a noticable loss of power from
your battery but not enough for the battery to stop working....

what i said was 7v was better than a 4v.especially with a weaker
battery....

jethro i know you wanna be like me so bad....

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:31:42 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

scott. i am right.you WRONG again.....batterys dont stay the same though
use....
just admit it..i am the car gear guy.... hAHahAHAHahaHa......
you remind me of those brainless kids at sd board.....
bask in my greatness.....that is i. the car gear guy.


Bob, I've said *several times* that batteries lose a small amount of
their capacity over time - where are you getting that I'm saying they
"stay the same" throughout their lifetime?

But again, a battery that has lost some of its capacity STILL won't
affect the voltage in your car's electrical system.


--
Scott Gardner

"A billion hours ago, human life appeared on earth. A billion minutes ago, Christianity emerged. A billion Coca Colas ago was yesterday morning. " (from a Coca-Cola report)

bob wald Wrote:
jethro i know you wanna be like me so bad....

Been there done that... in about 1989... except I didn't troll
online...


--
Jethro

[(Vas/Vbox)+1]^.5 * Qts or Fs
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:32:01 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

scott 0 n 15% n 25% isnt alike..meaning a noticable loss of power from
your battery but not enough for the battery to stop working....

Again, nothing that happens to the battery as it ages will affect your
car's electrical system voltage AT ALL, until the battery fails
completely. Where are you getting this idea that it will make a
difference?

System voltage is determined solely by the alternator and the voltage
regulator. After all, that's why it's called a "voltage regulator".

--
Scott Gardner

"Freedom defined is freedom denied." (Illuminatus)

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:33:34 -0500, (bob wald)
wrote:

what i said was 7v was better than a 4v.especially with a weaker
battery....

And that statement is completely, totally, 100-percent wrong. What
makes you think that a weak battery will affect system voltage once
the car's running?

--
Scott Gardner

"After things go from bad to worse, the cycle will repeat itself."

scott once again ill explain to you.your stereo is hooked directly to
your battery.so your stereo takes only from your battery n your
altinator replaces it..doh........weeeeeee

"bob wald the retard" wrote in message
...
scott once again ill explain to you.your stereo is hooked directly to
your battery.so your stereo takes only from your battery n your
altinator replaces it..doh........weeeeeee


Then start your engine and disconnect your battery.
If your assumption is correct, your stereo will not work. ****en retard.
Your altenator supplies, and your voltage REGULATOR "REGULATES" the
electricity supply to your electrical system. ****en retard.
doh.......weeeeeeeeeee - ****en retard.
Greg.