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#161
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Damn it, there are those pesky expectation effects again. Indeed - that's why the tests are done blind........... Another idiotic conclusion. It's no harder to convince yourself that 2 components sound exactly the same in DBT than it is to convince yourself that they sound different in sighted testing. |
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#162
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Switched between two players at a time, (normally the Pioneer and any 'audiophile contender' nowadays, but the Meridian's been compared against both Pioneer and Sony), using identical CD-Rs synchronised as closely as possible, and with levels set to be the same +/- 0.1dB at the speaker terminals, using -20dB test tones at 20Hz, 1kHz and 10kHz. Since no statistically significant identification was possible, it seems that the synch was adequate! Or, more likely, the ears were not. |
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#163
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:05:32 +0800, "TT"
wrote: Seconded, Ruff. I feel like I've been dragged back down into that nightmare hell-hole known as RAO after only lately escaping it. Names I'm still trying to forget keep appearing before my startled gaze like phantoms of the underworld. Please make it stop. Paul and Ruff, how is this for a Utopian ideal "When the RAO gang leave perhaps they could take one or two more with them that wish to carry on like this all the time" ;-) It would be an excellent idea in that the persons you have in mind would be instantly pulverised on RAO, which is why of course they stay away. And unfortunately the RAO regulars are too shrewd to invite them over as their reputations preceed them. |
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#164
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:19:28 -0400, "Clyde Slick"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:48:10 -0400, "Clyde Slick" wrote: And the abx test removes our expectations, yet leaves their expectations in. It is a more biased test than subjective listening!!! ABX is hideously flawed. Bull****. What you mean is that ABX doesn't support your absolute knowledge that 'high-end' designer label gear *must* sound better than 'Chinky cheapies'. -- It doesn't support it because it is inherently designed to purposefully support the opposite conclusion. It is NOT a neutral test. It does not remove the expectation effects of those who have preconceived notions that there are no differences. Clearly you have no idea that these tests are used every day by major audio manufacturers, for the precise purpose of *revealing* small but real audible differences made by their R&D guys. Cretin. And who are the subjects taking such tests? The R&D engineers, and for final judgements, selected panels of listeners. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#165
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It's probably worth noting that jeffc is the same guy who claims that the
human ear is a more sensitive and more accurate measurement device than any man-made instrument. To wit: http://tinyurl.com/dapzq http://tinyurl.com/djtfg "jeffc" wrote in message m... "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Like most of the 'subjectivists', you're ignoring reality to push your own prejudices, and bitching about ABX because it doesn't support your fantasising about the sound of 'high-end' equipment. Like most "objectivists" you're ignoring reality to push your own prejudices, and bitching about listening to music because it doesn't support your fantasizing about measuring equipment. What is it exactly that makes you think perfectly normal people can't simply hear things? What are you SO afraid of exactly? |
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#166
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:39:43 +0200, Sander deWaal
wrote: "Arny Krueger" said: ** You're paying for what you get. Not at all. A lot of the $kilobuck players have the same operational guts as the $200 players. Examples please? The Mark Levinson 31.5 'Reference' transport cost $10,000, but at its heart is a standard Philips CDM 12 CD-ROM mechanism, OEM cost less than $50 including all associated electronics. Similarly, the original Meridian 800 series used about $20 worth of cheap plastic CD-ROM drive, without even a fancy casing, at the heart of a $15,000 unit. Why? Because as the Meridian engineers pointed out, that's all you need! Of course, their marketing boys kicked in, and you can now buy an 800 series DVD unit in beautiful alloy and glass casework for $20,000, or a 'dedicated' G98 CD transport for $6,500. Doesn't work any better than the old plastic CD-ROM, but sure looks pretty................... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#167
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:35:14 +0200, Sander deWaal
wrote: "Arny Krueger" said: Not at all. A lot of the $kilobuck players have the same operational guts as the $200 players. Examples please? Theta-Digital http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...2653a388212cc9 McCormack http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...73dd41bd672652 DVD players.........interesting. With CD players, the only 2 examples I know of are the Rega Planet (earlier versions) and the Ah Tjoeb 99, which was in fact a lower-end Marantz with an added tube stage. Both weren't kilobuck players, BTW. Krell and Mark Levinson players all used standard Philips transport mechanisms, buried under lots of fancy alloy casework. I believe that Krell switched to Sony when supplies of the old 'swing arm' Philips CDM9 ran out, the remaining stocks having been bought up by Naim. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#169
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#170
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:37:46 GMT, "jeffc" wrote:
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .. . In level-matched blind listening tests, these three players sound identical - as any reasonable person would expect. It's true - any reasonable person would expect that you can't hear the difference between any audio components. No they wouldn't, if they were also a knowledgeable person. Several of the multi-kilobuck 'high-end' players are seriously broken, and really do sound different. The YBA 'blue laser' and Audio Note DAC spring to mind. Similarly for SET amps. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#171
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:40:07 GMT, "jeffc" wrote:
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .. . Like most of the 'subjectivists', you're ignoring reality to push your own prejudices, and bitching about ABX because it doesn't support your fantasising about the sound of 'high-end' equipment. Like most "objectivists" you're ignoring reality to push your own prejudices, and bitching about listening to music because it doesn't support your fantasizing about measuring equipment. ABX is a *listening* test, moron. What is it exactly that makes you think perfectly normal people can't simply hear things? What are you SO afraid of exactly? DBTs are *listening* tests, and perfectly normal people do hear perfectly normal things. What they *don't *hear is any differences among decently designed gear at all prices - because no such differences exist. It takes *really* expensive 'high-end' gear to be so *badly* designed as to actually produce *adudible* differences! :-) Why are *you* so afraid to *really* trust your ears when you don't already *know* what's playing? You're just the same deluded and cretinous Art Sackman that you always were. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#172
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:40:07 GMT, "jeffc" wrote:
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .. . Like most of the 'subjectivists', you're ignoring reality to push your own prejudices, and bitching about ABX because it doesn't support your fantasising about the sound of 'high-end' equipment. Like most "objectivists" you're ignoring reality to push your own prejudices, and bitching about listening to music because it doesn't support your fantasizing about measuring equipment. ABX is a *listening* test, moron. What is it exactly that makes you think perfectly normal people can't simply hear things? What are you SO afraid of exactly? DBTs are *listening* tests, and perfectly normal people do hear perfectly normal things. What they *don't *hear is any differences among decently designed gear at all prices - because no such differences exist. It takes *really* expensive 'high-end' gear to be so *badly* designed as to actually produce *adudible* differences! :-) Why are *you* so afraid to *really* trust your ears when you don't already *know* what's playing? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#173
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:42:16 GMT, "jeffc" wrote:
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .. . Damn it, there are those pesky expectation effects again. Indeed - that's why the tests are done blind........... Another idiotic conclusion. It's no harder to convince yourself that 2 components sound exactly the same in DBT than it is to convince yourself that they sound different in sighted testing. Sure it is, you idiot. If there *is* a difference, then you'll hear it. If there isn't, then you won't. This cretinous argument of yours remains the same brain-dead strawman it always was. Compare and contrast with the 'false sighted' test, where the audience is told that A is a cheap SS amp, and B is a 'designer label' tube amp. Several pieces are played with changeover switches being thrown to indicate tube or SS, and the audience duly notes the liquid treble and added inner detail of the tube amp. Of course, the switch isn't actually connected....................... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#174
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" Dean, the price is $200USD, not $2000USD. Arny had said for the price of replacing the laser in the XA7ES (less than $200USD), I could get a new one which sounds as good. So I asked him to name some player for under $200USD, which he did. Althought I'm not entirely convinced that it will sound as good though. ** In that case, I can tell you that wont be able to find anything as good as XA7ES for $200USD. I don't read Audio magazines or online reviews but I do trust my ears and cheapo CD players is no where near as good as flagship models players like XA7ES. Even with DVD players ( though I am not into home theatre that much ) the difference in picture &sound between a cheap DVD players and top range DVD players are apparent. One of my friends bought a pair of Acoustic Image from the "White Van Scam" gang awhile ago. Even though I told him that those speakers consist of cheap drivers and probably don't have cross-over networks and they sounded *horrible* comparing many other budget speakers ( Dali, Jamo ). He did not believe me and total convinced that they were as good as Dynaudio Contour series which he have heard in the HiFi shop. Until I have found an article about the scam and shown him and ever since then they have been used as seats. This shows you how convinced people can be until......... Cheers Dean |
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#175
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Arny Krueger wrote:
Fella, like your leader Middius, you have a wonderful command of the obvious. Is that supposed to be an insult? Pray do tell, how is George my "leader"? That follows from the fact that you have shown yourself to be highly unfamiliar with a certain high end integrated amp whose name you just dropped. I didn't drop that amp. I had it over for two weeks, it had the tube gain stage in there, btw... I listened, decided that it sounded too larger-than-life for my tastes and returned it. Looking for something to replace my densen (Sander is still supposed send me one of his samples). Hence the comeback to the group, btw. You are actually dumb enough to really not understand what I meant with my comeback about that BAT amp. You _*are*_ actually _*that*_ dumb man, hard to say this but you are a 5 year old 60 year old. PS: I know you are dumb and all that, ok, but try to get somebody to do something about this newsreader of yours..... And before you go shooting your mouth off with that "my newsreader reads the news fellaaa, it sends my posts fellaaa, it will show no difference in a abx against a high-end newsreader fellaaa" kind of **** just *look* at how it messes up the quotes with everything all over the place. PS2: Checked a bit of history, the great debate, hahaa, you mouse-voiced keyboard warrior you.  So you couldn't present your powerpointpresentation, imagine a power point presentation... Hahaaa. You havethe voice of a mouse, the brains of a mouse, the heart, soul, the purpose in life of a mouse. Hahaa. |
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#176
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"jeffc" wrote in message
m "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Like most of the 'subjectivists', you're ignoring reality to push your own prejudices, and bitching about ABX because it doesn't support your fantasising about the sound of 'high-end' equipment. Like most "objectivists" you're ignoring reality to push your own prejudices, and bitching about listening to music because it doesn't support your fantasizing about measuring equipment. This is just a poor paraphrase of what Pinkerton said with a few words changed. Aren't you capable of origional thought? Yup, we've got another live one who thinks that listening tests somehow don't involve listening. What is it exactly that makes you think perfectly normal people can't simply hear things? Because of 30 years of experience with people who are mislead by the golden eared press and their friendly neighborhood high end audio salesdroid. What are you SO afraid of exactly? Come on Jeff, your post is fairly dripping with fear, anger and hostility. Stop externalizing and get in touch with yourself for a change. |
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#177
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"jeffc" wrote in message
m "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Damn it, there are those pesky expectation effects again. Indeed - that's why the tests are done blind........... Another idiotic conclusion. As if your ignorant false claims that ears are more sensitive than any test equipment indicate any special smarts on your part, Jeff. It's no harder to convince yourself that 2 components sound exactly the same in DBT than it is to convince yourself that they sound different in sighted testing. You're wrong on many counts, Jeff. First off, its harder to convince yourself of anything in a DBT simply because DBTs take a lot more work - far more work than idlers like you or high end audiophile press are willing to do. Secondly, most audiophiles, even those who have done dozens of DBTs still seem to nurture some hope that they will be able to hear the difference this time. Thirdly Jeff, DBTs put the listener into a position where they know for sure that the only way they have to go is to actually hear a difference. In the bogus non-level-matched, non-time-synched, sighted evaluations you've done and that you base your decisions on, people can generally easily hear differences based on the non-existent level-matching, the non-existent synchonization of the music, and of course the evidence of their eyes. |
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#178
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:58:40 +0300, Fella wrote: Most modern R&D in amps and CD players is biased towards cost reduction. That's why my 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer DV-575A will play any kind of silver disc while providing sound quality identical to that of a SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player. I've tried to dissect this little statement of yours up there. Just made no sense to me. So modern r&d amps (what's an "r&d" amp? Research and development amp? What is that?) and CD players *"is"* biased towards cost reduction and this gives your pioneer dvd player exactly the same sound as a naim, for instance.. Hmm... How does that work out? It also plays movies! Well hardy har har! Congrats there old boy! If you've really been there and done that, you'll know that they really do work. If your sense of "work" means that they curtain enough detail, where real consequential differences lie, plus the "test" situation, and make everything sound the same, then yes, they do work. This *is* about envy with you low-income nerd types, isn't it? You imagine your yamaha metallic sound $120 receiver as sounding the same as some $5000 BAT integrated amp, yes? That's how you are able to consume that edgy, glaringly digital, transistor sound you get from your piece of **** gear. You really are a prat, aren't you? Pace, rhythm and timing? Yes, when done correctly, always a good thing. See my page he http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/ Wouv! I am impressed. But wait a sec.. You say: "Interconnects are home-brewed unshielded twisted pair made from 0.6mm solid-core Teflon-coated silver-clad OFHC copper (just standard MIL-spec hookup wire), while connectors are either Neutrik XLR or Deltron Teflon/alloy RCA jacks." What's that? Solid core silver clad-OFHC-copper-teflon-bla-bla bla??! WIRE IS WIRE!! As dumbmika would put it. And what? "Sony CDP715E – a curious player, not a ‘flagship’ by any means, but it brought together all Sony’s best CD chips in a way not really improved" bla bla.. So just *how* does a CD player become "flagship" ? That yours is not a flagship? Don't they all sound the same? No but seriously, you should think more about speaker placement, your "rack" seems to get in the way. You should get yourself a decentrack, too, btw. And.. Yes, you owe yourself this audition: http://www.bladelius.com/freja.html Just get this (though dunno if you _can_ where you live, wherever that might be, who cares! if not get a Linn univesal player) and hook it up. You *will* hear an abundance of all kinds of differences... ALL for the better! Don't mess with any DBT sessions to verify this though. JUST TRUST YOUR FRIGGIN EARS FERCHRISSAKES! Do you do a DBT when you eat some better tasting meal at a gourmet restaurant? NO! You sit there and eat it. Piece of **** gear? I don't think so................ So why don't you use some $200 yamaha integrated amp (or whatever the **** they might cost arny!) as an amp? Level matched and fixed volume and all that they all sound the same? What's with that "exotic" amp? "krell" ?? Ain't never heard of no "kkrelll" in circuitcity, haha! (or wherever the **** you should be getting your electronics from).. |
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#179
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"jeffc" wrote in message
m "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... In level-matched blind listening tests, these three players sound identical - as any reasonable person would expect. It's true - any reasonable person would expect that you can't hear the difference between any audio components. Well then Jeff, that makes you an unreasonable person by your own words because you obviously expect to hear differences between most if not all audio components. Looks like Pinkerton tricked you into hanging yourself with your own tongue, Jeff. ;-) |
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#180
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"Fella" wrote in message .. . Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:58:40 +0300, Fella wrote: Most modern R&D in amps and CD players is biased towards cost reduction. That's why my 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer DV-575A will play any kind of silver disc while providing sound quality identical to that of a SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player. I've tried to dissect this little statement of yours up there. Just made no sense to me. Maybe you should have tried a little harder. So modern r&d amps (what's an "r&d" amp? Research and development amp? What is that?) Yes Research and development *IN* amps... (Maybe your glasses need replacing?) Pace, rhythm and timing? Yes, when done correctly, always a good thing. Only the musicians control that. MrT. |
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#181
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"Fella" wrote in message
Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:58:40 +0300, Fella wrote: Most modern R&D in amps and CD players is biased towards cost reduction. That's why my 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer DV-575A will play any kind of silver disc while providing sound quality identical to that of a SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player. I've tried to dissect this little statement of yours up there. Just made no sense to me. So modern r&d amps (what's an "r&d" amp? Research and development amp? Obviously Fella you are out of your mind because your purported quotes from Pinkerton are dropping words all over the place. Pinkerton didn't say "r&d amps", that's something you made up. What Pinkerton did say is "r&d in amps", IOW research and development in amplifiers. What is that?) and CD players *"is"* biased towards cost reduction and this gives your pioneer dvd player exactly the same sound as a naim, for instance.. Hmm... How does that work out? The way it works out is that most modern CD players preform very well, and you don't have to spend kilobucks to get a good one. If you've really been there and done that, you'll know that they really do work. If your sense of "work" means that they curtain enough detail,where real consequential differences lie, plus the "test" situation, and make everything sound the same, then yes, they do work. Fella, if you believe that a good optical player like the one that Pinkerton mentions has an audible fault where it will "curtain enough detail", then you haven't been listening very closely. This *is* about envy with you low-income nerd types, isn't it? You imagine your yamaha metallic sound $120 receiver as sounding the same as some $5000 BAT integrated amp, yes? That's how you are able to consume that edgy, glaringly digital, transistor sound you get from your piece of **** gear. Pace, rhythm and timing? Yes, when done correctly, always a good thing. Pace, rhythm and timing is what musicans do, and what recording engineers sometimes modify. It's not a property of amplifiers or CD players. See my page he http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/ But wait a sec.. You say: "Interconnects are home-brewed unshielded twisted pair made from 0.6mm solid-core Teflon-coated silver-clad OFHC copper (just standard MIL-spec hookup wire), while connectors are either Neutrik XLR or Deltron Teflon/alloy RCA jacks." What's that? Solid core silver clad-OFHC-copper-teflon-bla-bla bla??! WIRE IS WIRE!! As dumbmika would put it. Wire is wire as Pinkerton would say it. Thing is, he has this stuff in his system, and he freely admits that it has no magic properties. And what? "Sony CDP715E – a curious player, not a ‘flagship’ by any means, but it brought together all Sony’s best CD chips in a way not really improved" bla bla.. And with that player in hand, Pinkerton tells one and all that a low cost player works as well. No but seriously, you should think more about speaker placement, your "rack" seems to get in the way. Youshould get yourself a decent rack, too, btw. And.. Yes, you owe yourself this audition: http://www.bladelius.com/freja.html Given that low cost players can provide facsimile reproduction of CDs, based on comparison of CD playback on a good low cost player as compared to the digital file used to make the CD being played, exactly what is one supposed to do that would be better? Just get this (though dunno if you _can_ where you live, wherever that might be, who cares! if not get a Linn univesal player) and hook it up. You *will* hear an abundance of all kinds of differences... ALL for the better! Tell us about your level-matched, time-synched, blind listening tests, Fella. Don't mess with any DBT sessions to verify this though. IOW Fella you want us to check our brains at the door and act like the kind of fool you are here? JUST TRUST YOUR FRIGGIN EARS FERCHRISSAKES! So Fella you don't get the fact that DBTs are exactly about trusting our ears? Do you do a DBT when you eat some better tasting meal at a gourmet restaurant? NO! You sit there and eat it. There is no controversy over the idea that different foods in different resturants taste different. There is a controversy over whether or not CD players sound different. Do you get the difference? Piece of **** gear? I don't think so................ So why don't you use some $200 yamaha integrated amp (or whatever the **** they might cost arny!) as an amp? Level matched and fixed volume and all that they all sound the same? Fact of the matter is that I do a fair amount of listening to a $80 Pioneer SX205 receiver. What's with that "exotic" amp? "krell" ?? Ain't never heard of no "kkrelll" in circuitcity, haha! (or wherever the **** you should be getting your electronics from).. I also have a number of so-called *better* amps, and you are right - they all pretty much sound the same. |
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#182
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:10:06 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote: Actually, the reason that many of us unsubscribed from RAO is that it's 'regulars' are gullible idiots like Art Sackman, and pointless no-life cripples like Hiddius Gorge. If you unsubscribed from RAO, Stewart, why are you cross-posting from there? |
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#183
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote EddieM wrote: Stewart Pinkerton wrote EddieM wrote: Stewart Pinkerton wrote calcerise wrote: Arny isn't too keen on actually listening to audio products, since they should all sound the same according to tests. And indeed the good ones *do*, if we're talking about *listening* tests. I have a Sony CDP-715E, one of the best-performing players Sony ever made, although lacking the 'battleship' build of the XA7ES, I have access to a Meridian 588, probably the finest 'high tech' SOTA CD player on the planet, and I also own a Pioneer DV-575A 'universal' player that cost less than the quoted price of a new laser assembly for the XA7ES. In level-matched blind listening tests, these three players sound identical - as any reasonable person would expect. Any reasonable person would most likely also ask that ... when you were performing a level-matched blind listening test among your three cd players namely: 1. Sony CDP-715E 2. Meridian 588 3. Pioneer DV-575A Were you also comparing their sounds from each other? I have no idea what that means. I was wondering what exactly were you talking about when you said you did a *listening* test as you had mentioned above. You said that you did a *level-matched* blind listening test among the 3 players and that towards the end, you concluded that all 3 sounded the same. So I wonder how you carried out your test. Did you listen separately or did you made an active comparison using a switch during the test? Switched between two players at a time, (normally the Pioneer and any 'audiophile contender' nowadays, but the Meridian's been compared against both Pioneer and Sony), using identical CD-Rs synchronised as closely as possible, and with levels set to be the same +/- 0.1dB at the speaker terminals, using -20dB test tones at 20Hz, 1kHz and 10kHz. Since no statistically significant identification was possible, it seems that the synch was adequate! And how would a person go about concluding with reasonable expectation that all three players will sound identical without having made an active comparison Irrelevant, given the existence of an 'active' comparison (whatever that's supposed to mean). [...] All I meant by that is whether you were actively making comparison between the two or three player through a switching device during your test in order to determine presence of subtle differences that may exist. Why is that irrelevant for me to ask ? [...] OTOH, anyone with any understanding of the optics and electronics involved, would indeed expect that they would most likely sound identical, unless one had a serious problem. Here's a handy hint - many so-called 'high end' players *do* have serious design problems, for which you are charged a stratospheric price! As you're saying above, assuming your good understanding of the optics and electronics involved influences you to reasonably conclude that the three players would sound identical, how would you prevent yourself from reasonably expecting that the three players would sound different when performing a listening test without doing such thing as active comparison using a switch during the test ? How does using a switching device prevent you from the influences that the three unit would not sound identical -- ? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#184
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"paul packer" wrote in message
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:10:06 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton wrote: Actually, the reason that many of us unsubscribed from RAO is that it's 'regulars' are gullible idiots like Art Sackman, and pointless no-life cripples like Hiddius Gorge. If you unsubscribed from RAO, Stewart, why are you cross-posting from there? Inability to notice the crosspost from rec.audio.tech noted. |
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#185
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Actually, the reason that many of us unsubscribed from RAO is that it's 'regulars' are gullible idiots like Art Sackman, and pointless no-life cripples like Hiddius Gorge. Well, no. It appeared to be your inability to explain why such a world class engineering talent who was so chummy with the leading audio personalities of the day and yesterday wasn't recognized by any of them. Furthermore, your claims of having invented the radar and telephone were met with some reasonable doubts you could not erase. :-) It was a classic case of digging one's own hole. I have no idea who the rest of you are. Cheers, Margaret |
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#186
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Arny Krueger wrote Arny Krueger wrote EddieM wrote Clyde Slick wrote Stewart Pinkerton wrote calcerise wrote: Arny isn't too keen on actually listening to audio products, since they should all sound the same according to tests. In level-matched blind listening tests, these three players sound identical - as any reasonable person would expect. Damn it, there are those pesky expectation effects again. Good point. There's an equal danger in missing an audible difference because you expect it to not be there, as there is a danger in falsely perceiving a difference because the listening test was done naively. So Eddie, what to do? Note that a day later, Eddie has posted to other threads but has no answer for my simple question. Are you actually asking me how to properly perform your test so as to not do it "naively" ? **** You. |
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#187
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Mr.T wrote:
Yes Research and development *IN* amps... (Maybe your glasses need replacing?) Maybe, yes. My mistake. |
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#188
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Arny Krueger wrote:
Pace, rhythm and timing is what musicans do, and what recording engineers sometimes modify. It's not a property of amplifiers or CD players. ...... Given that low cost players can provide facsimile reproduction of CDs, You don't even have a clue as to what you are missing out on. Wire is wire as Pinkerton would say it. So now you are putting words into pinkertons mouth? If wire is wire and some el-cheapo radioshack wire would do the *same* thing then why in the hell did pinkerton go to all that trouble "home brew"ing all the exotic teflon silver bla bla? What the f.ck is wrong with you people? Fact of the matter is that I do a fair amount of listening to a $80 Pioneer SX205 receiver. Yea, you listen to it? What does it say? |
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#189
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"EddieM" wrote in message m... Arny Krueger wrote Arny Krueger wrote EddieM wrote Clyde Slick wrote Stewart Pinkerton wrote calcerise wrote: Arny isn't too keen on actually listening to audio products, since they should all sound the same according to tests. In level-matched blind listening tests, these three players sound identical - as any reasonable person would expect. Damn it, there are those pesky expectation effects again. Good point. There's an equal danger in missing an audible difference because you expect it to not be there, as there is a danger in falsely perceiving a difference because the listening test was done naively. So Eddie, what to do? Note that a day later, Eddie has posted to other threads but has no answer for my simple question. Are you actually asking me how to properly perform your test so as to not do it "naively" ? **** You. He gets Christmas greetings like that too! LOL! Cheers, Margaret PS. Look for a response where Arny asserts how comfortable he is with that. |
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#190
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"Margaret von B." wrote
in message "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... Actually, the reason that many of us unsubscribed from RAO is that it's 'regulars' are gullible idiots like Art Sackman, and pointless no-life cripples like Hiddius Gorge. Yup, Atkinson's biggest supporters around here are also some of the biggest idiots in the history of RAO. Zippie as technically backward as he was, was a bloomin' technical genius compared to the Middius clique. Well, no. It appeared to be your inability to explain why such a world class engineering talent who was so chummy with the leading audio personalities of the day and yesterday wasn't recognized by any of them. What are you talking about Maggie? Furthermore, your claims of having invented the radar and telephone were met with some reasonable doubts you could not erase. :-) It was a classic case of digging one's own hole. I have no idea who the rest of you are. Figures given that you obviously don't know who you are, Maggie-man! ;-) |
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#191
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Clyde Slick wrote:
Debating trade trick no 28. Purposefully misinterpret and misrepresent waht I say, and then prove the misinterpreted misrepresentation is wrong. I thought that was his trick numero uno. He tries it all the time. |
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#192
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"EddieM" wrote in message
m **** You. Clearly posted in a moment of total clarity - Eddie style! ;-) |
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#193
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"Fella" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: Pace, rhythm and timing is what musicans do, and what recording engineers sometimes modify. It's not a property of amplifiers or CD players. ..... Given that low cost players can provide facsimile reproduction of CDs, You don't even have a clue as to what you are missing out on You're just posturing. Wire is wire as Pinkerton would say it. So now you are putting words into pinkertons mouth? Where? If wire is wire and some el-cheapo radioshack wire would do the *same* thing then why in the hell did pinkerton go to all that trouble "home brew"ing all the exotic teflon silver bla bla? I think the story goes that he had a ton of the teflon silver stuff on hand, and wanted to use it up. What the f.ck is wrong with you people? Why does anything have to be wrong with us? Fact of the matter is that I do a fair amount of listening to a $80 Pioneer SX205 receiver. Yea, you listen to it? What does it say? Depends what I'm playing through it. |
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#194
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"Fella" wrote in message
Clyde Slick wrote: Debating trade trick no 28. Purposefully misinterpret and misrepresent waht I say, and then prove the misinterpreted misrepresentation is wrong. I thought that was his trick numero uno. He tries it all the time. After the butcher job you did on Pinkerton's post, Fella? How long ago did they remove your self-awareness? |
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#195
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"Fella" wrote in message .. . Arny Krueger wrote: Pace, rhythm and timing is what musicans do, and what recording engineers sometimes modify. It's not a property of amplifiers or CD players. ..... Given that low cost players can provide facsimile reproduction of CDs, You don't even have a clue as to what you are missing out on. Wire is wire as Pinkerton would say it. So now you are putting words into pinkertons mouth? If wire is wire and some el-cheapo radioshack wire would do the *same* thing then why in the hell did pinkerton go to all that trouble "home brew"ing all the exotic teflon silver bla bla? What the f.ck is wrong with you people? That "people" part is open to debate in his case... Fact of the matter is that I do a fair amount of listening to a $80 Pioneer SX205 receiver. Yea, you listen to it? What does it say? Based on his history, my money is on "**** you!" Cheers, Margaret |
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#196
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"Margaret von B." wrote
in message Yea, you listen to it? What does it say? Based on his history, my money is on "**** you!" Obviously, Maggie is feeling the pressure, too. |
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#197
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message news  "Margaret von B." wrote in message Yea, you listen to it? What does it say? Based on his history, my money is on "**** you!" Obviously, Maggie is feeling the pressure, too. Quit whining, Arny! Margaret |
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#198
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:47:17 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote: Nowadays, they mostly don't. Most modern R&D in amps and CD players is biased towards cost reduction. That's why my 'Chinky cheapy' Pioneer DV-575A will play any kind of silver disc while providing sound quality identical to that of a SOTA 'audiophile brand' CD player Care to provide the dbt details that supports your statement? |
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#199
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Drunkie is snarling and loaded again. Actually, the reason that many of us unsubscribed from RAO is that it's 'regulars' are gullible idiots like Art Sackman, and pointless no-life cripples like Hiddius Gorge. So you admit I scared you off. I'm so proud. |
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#200
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:22:09 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: If you unsubscribed from RAO, Stewart, why are you cross-posting from there? Inability to notice the crosspost from rec.audio.tech noted. Well, here's a better question: if you unsubscribed from RAO why are you still taking part in the kind of futile and endlessly repeating debate that presumably caused you to unsubscribe from RAO in the first place? |
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