[voxguy]

Hi, I still use a couple of SV-3700 DAT decks on a semi-regular basis
- when I want to roll
an analog back-up DAT of a DAW session... I also have tons of stuff
from the late-90s thru
mid 2000s that was saved as dubs/archives of various mixed spots...in
addition to data-DAT
backup tapes. Brands vary - Ampex/Quantegy, Sony, BASF... 3Ms,
cheaper-grades.

Recently I had to send both decks out for service as each was
consistently eating tapes--
both 'archived' tapes as well as new ones that I was using for backups
of sessions this year.

After getting the decks back, i put one of them back in the rack and
had to run a backup
so I pulled a new/shrink-wrapped Quantegy tape off the shelf and used
it for the session...
Upon playback the deck went into cleaning mode with the familiar sound
of digital-hashy
distortion until it 'stabilized...' and intermittently it happened
again. No tape-eating but
into 'cleaning mode' -

Suggestion from repair guy is to use a cleaning tape in the machine
and try recording something new with a new tape to see if it happens
again. I haven't gotten to this yet but generally speaking, are
we talking the same kind of deterioration issues with DATs as that of
analog tapes that sit around
for more than a couple of years - i.e., shedding, oxide -- Am I
'gunking' the DAT heads every time
I (try to) play one of these older archival material DATs...and
likewise, is there an age issue even
with "new" dats that are maybe 5 or more years old - wherein i'm
potentially causing damage or
creating a problem with the freshly serviced DAT decks? I know there
are a lot of variables here
but generally is this kind of thing something to be expected with DAT
shelf-life?

Thanks for any thoughts

MikeE

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

voxguy wrote:

Hi, I still use a couple of SV-3700 DAT decks on a semi-regular basis
- when I want to roll
an analog back-up DAT of a DAW session...

Their mechanism is awfully crude, possibly LADA oem, and needs annual or
biannual qualified service.

I also have tons of stuff
from the late-90s thru
mid 2000s that was saved as dubs/archives of various mixed spots...in
addition to data-DAT
backup tapes. Brands vary - Ampex/Quantegy, Sony, BASF... 3Ms,
cheaper-grades.

Recently I had to send both decks out for service as each was
consistently eating tapes--
both 'archived' tapes as well as new ones that I was using for backups
of sessions this year.

After getting the decks back, i put one of them back in the rack and
had to run a backup
so I pulled a new/shrink-wrapped Quantegy tape off the shelf and used
it for the session...
Upon playback the deck went into cleaning mode with the familiar sound
of digital-hashy
distortion until it 'stabilized...' and intermittently it happened
again. No tape-eating but
into 'cleaning mode' -

What cleaning mode?

Suggestion from repair guy is to use a cleaning tape in the machine
and try recording something new with a new tape to see if it happens
again.

This is not a bad suggestion, they are very sensitive to loose debris flakes
and all new DAT tapes seem to come with such, that at least was my
experience with my SV3800 and my reason for changing to using a harddisk
recorder.

I haven't gotten to this yet but generally speaking, are
we talking the same kind of deterioration issues with DATs as that of
analog tapes that sit around

Tape manufacturing machinery has to run 24/365 to produce a stable quality.

for more than a couple of years - i.e., shedding, oxide -- Am I
'gunking' the DAT heads every time
I (try to) play one of these older archival material DATs...and
likewise, is there an age issue even

Look for a Sony DAT 77 or 2000, their mechanisms are very good and seemingly
immune to contamination. I would not want to play a precious tape in my
SV3800 and if I had to I would play it end to end with no stops. Error count
is likely to be lower if you first wind and rewind it ... but doing it is
also a risk.

I don't know it for a fact, but it is my guess that the mechanism of at
least the 2000 is the one from the computer DAT drives that are spec'ed to
handle extremely thin tape ....also it has about a few moving parts as
possible. The SV-family drives are more like smaller versions of the Beocord
2000 mechanism ... O;-)

with "new" dats that are maybe 5 or more years old - wherein i'm
potentially causing damage or
creating a problem with the freshly serviced DAT decks? I know there
are a lot of variables here
but generally is this kind of thing something to be expected with DAT
shelf-life?

DAT tapes have been deteriorating for quite some time.

Thanks for any thoughts

You mileage may vary wildly.

MikeE

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

voxguy wrote:
Hi, I still use a couple of SV-3700 DAT decks on a semi-regular basis
- when I want to roll
an analog back-up DAT of a DAW session... I also have tons of stuff
from the late-90s thru
mid 2000s that was saved as dubs/archives of various mixed spots...in
addition to data-DAT
backup tapes. Brands vary - Ampex/Quantegy, Sony, BASF... 3Ms,
cheaper-grades.

That's all fine. For the most part, the tapes are all made in the same
two or three factories anyway.

Just avoid DIC brand tapes and avoid 90 meter and longer data grade tapes
(60m ones are fine) and you'll be okay.

Recently I had to send both decks out for service as each was
consistently eating tapes--
both 'archived' tapes as well as new ones that I was using for backups
of sessions this year.

After getting the decks back, i put one of them back in the rack and
had to run a backup
so I pulled a new/shrink-wrapped Quantegy tape off the shelf and used
it for the session...
Upon playback the deck went into cleaning mode with the familiar sound
of digital-hashy
distortion until it 'stabilized...' and intermittently it happened
again. No tape-eating but
into 'cleaning mode' -

This is characteristic of a transport problem. Send it back! Send it
back and tell them not to return it until the thing can go five minutes
without an error on the counter.

Could be all kinds of things, but if it's at the beginning of the tape
it's more apt to be a tensioning problem.

Suggestion from repair guy is to use a cleaning tape in the machine
and try recording something new with a new tape to see if it happens
again. I haven't gotten to this yet but generally speaking, are
we talking the same kind of deterioration issues with DATs as that of
analog tapes that sit around

It wouldn't HURT to do that, but it won't work. Do it, then call him
back and get the machine fixed.

for more than a couple of years - i.e., shedding, oxide -- Am I
'gunking' the DAT heads every time
I (try to) play one of these older archival material DATs...and
likewise, is there an age issue even
with "new" dats that are maybe 5 or more years old - wherein i'm
potentially causing damage or
creating a problem with the freshly serviced DAT decks? I know there
are a lot of variables here
but generally is this kind of thing something to be expected with DAT
shelf-life?

I have seen some DATs fail with age, mostly older Sony ones, but this
is probably not your problem.

Helical scan machines are mechanical monstrosities at best, and DAT
machines are teeny tiny helical scan machines that require a lot of
precision. You need to have a full lubrication done, belts, idlers,
and pinch rollers checked, and the full alignment done annually. If
a machine has gone for more than a couple years without an annual PM,
there are often a lot of things wrong that need to be cleaned up at
the same time, and it can be no fun for the tech to isolate them all.

There is a set of acceptance tests in the service manual that should be
run every time the machine is serviced. If it passes all those tests,
it won't do what you describe.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Sep 20, 3:37*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
voxguy wrote:
Hi, I still use a couple of SV-3700 DAT decks on a semi-regular basis
- when I want to roll
an analog back-up DAT of a DAW session... *I also have tons of stuff
from the late-90s thru
mid 2000s that was saved as dubs/archives of various mixed spots...in
addition to data-DAT
backup tapes. *Brands vary - Ampex/Quantegy, Sony, BASF... 3Ms,
cheaper-grades.

That's all fine. *For the most part, the tapes are all made in the same
two or three factories anyway.

Just avoid DIC brand tapes and avoid 90 meter and longer data grade tapes
(60m ones are fine) and you'll be okay.

Recently I had to send both decks out for service as each was
consistently eating tapes--
both 'archived' tapes as well as new ones that I was using for backups
of sessions this year.

After getting the decks back, i put one of them back in the rack and
had to run a backup
so I pulled a new/shrink-wrapped Quantegy tape off the shelf and used
it for the session...
Upon playback the deck went into cleaning mode with the familiar sound
of digital-hashy
distortion until it 'stabilized...' and intermittently it happened
again. *No tape-eating but
into 'cleaning mode' -

This is characteristic of a transport problem. *Send it back! *Send it
back and tell them not to return it until the thing can go five minutes
without an error on the counter.

Could be all kinds of things, but if it's at the beginning of the tape
it's more apt to be a tensioning problem.

Suggestion from repair guy is to use a cleaning tape in the machine
and try recording something new with a new tape to see if it happens
again. *I haven't gotten to this yet but generally speaking, are
we talking the same kind of deterioration issues with DATs as that of
analog tapes that sit around

It wouldn't HURT to do that, but it won't work. *Do it, then call him
back and get the machine fixed.

for more than a couple of years - i.e., shedding, oxide -- *Am I
'gunking' the DAT heads every time
I (try to) play one of these older archival material DATs...and
likewise, is there an age issue even
with "new" dats that are maybe 5 or more years old - wherein i'm
potentially causing damage or
creating a problem with the freshly serviced DAT decks? * I know there
are a lot of variables here
but generally is this kind of thing something to be expected with DAT
shelf-life?

I have seen some DATs fail with age, mostly older Sony ones, but this
is probably not your problem.

Helical scan machines are mechanical monstrosities at best, and DAT
machines are teeny tiny helical scan machines that require a lot of
precision. *You need to have a full lubrication done, belts, idlers,
and pinch rollers checked, and the full alignment done annually. *If
a machine has gone for more than a couple years without an annual PM,
there are often a lot of things wrong that need to be cleaned up at
the same time, and it can be no fun for the tech to isolate them all.

There is a set of acceptance tests in the service manual that should be
run every time the machine is serviced. *If it passes all those tests,
it won't do what you describe.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I have had several trials with dat machines and analog tape.1. I have
a Sony dat machine that was out of alignment, but would play back it's
own out of aligned recordings back. Once the machine was fixed the
tapes would not play right. 2. I was hired to transfer 12 hours of a
movie soundtrack recorded on a bad dat machine. Total loss. Would not
play material on any machine. 3. This might sound crazy, but I have a
lot of analog reels of tape(maxell,Sony) from the 70's that still play
fine. I also have tapes from the 80's and 90's that went sticky. They
needed to be baked. I never thought of baking dat tapes.
Glenn

[[email protected]]

On Sep 20, 9:15*pm, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"voxguy" wrote in message

...
[snip[

I (try to) play one of these older archival material DATs...and
likewise, is there an age issue even
with "new" dats that are maybe 5 or more years old - wherein i'm
potentially causing damage or
creating a problem with the freshly serviced DAT decks? * I know there
are a lot of variables here
but generally is this kind of thing something to be expected with DAT
shelf-life?

Thanks for any thoughts

MikeE

I had an issue that occurred with DATs only two years old. The tapes were
recorded with an HHB PortaDAT, arguably the most robust DAT machine ever
made. According to HHB, head replacement was virtually unheard of, due to
the extremely tight tolerance of tension provided by the all-motor
clutchless mechanism. This was the workhorse machine of production sound
until the advent of hard disk recording.

I recorded around a dozen DATs in the hot, humid conditions of summertime
Vineland, New Jersey. The tapes were transferred to computer without
incident, *archived on CDR, and then stored in a cool, dry basement. *Two
years later, I had some reason to search the tapes, using the same PortaDAT
that had been used for recording. *ALL the tapes were unreadable.

In this case, I suspect the problem was a change in the physical length of
the tape caused by the atmospheric conditions in the basement. The tapes
were recorded in hot, humid conditions, and stored in cool, dry conditions.
I think the HHB transport was unable to compensate for the stretch. I have
no answer for it.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511

Well let's see. Either the dat machines are bad or the dat tapes are
bad. Not both. Or much less likely. If you play a tape in a 3rd dat
machine . Such as a friends. It might tell you if the dat is bad.
Baking tape is tricky. I have never heard of baking dat tape. I have
baked 2" 1" 1/2" and cassette tapes. You are just drying them out.120
deg to 130. Too hot will melt the plastic, but again I have never
heard of baking dat tapes. I wonder if my old dats are any good?
Glenn.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
I have had several trials with dat machines and analog tape.1. I have
a Sony dat machine that was out of alignment, but would play back it's
own out of aligned recordings back. Once the machine was fixed the
tapes would not play right.

Right. This is what happens when you don't do regular alignment. The
machine drifts and you never notice that you're making tapes with incorrect
alignment until you try and interchange tapes.

People think "oh, it's digital, I don't have to do maintenance" but it's
mechanical and it needs regular PM.

2. I was hired to transfer 12 hours of a
movie soundtrack recorded on a bad dat machine. Total loss. Would not
play material on any machine.

Send it to Eddie Ciletti. He has a machine instrumented so he can
deliberately misalign it to match a tape made on a misaligned machine.

3. This might sound crazy, but I have a
lot of analog reels of tape(maxell,Sony) from the 70's that still play
fine. I also have tapes from the 80's and 90's that went sticky. They
needed to be baked. I never thought of baking dat tapes.

Baking DAT tapes will ruin them. Sticky shed is a problem that ONLY
happens with a few tape formulations from a very short time period.
Problem is that a lot of audio engineers used those formulations when
they were available.

For the most part, analogue tape is a reliable archive medium. I have
tapes from the mid-1930s that play back fine, with perhaps a bit of
shedding because the latex binder isn't the strongest thing ever.

But, being able to play something back after fifty years is NORMAL
and EXPECTED. If you can't do that, what's the sense of the recording
medium anyway?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Sep 20, 10:08*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
wrote:
I have had several trials with dat machines and analog tape.1. *I have
a Sony dat machine that was out of alignment, but would play back it's
own out of aligned recordings back. Once the machine was fixed the
tapes would not play right.

Right. *This is what happens when you don't do regular alignment. *The
machine drifts and you never notice that you're making tapes with incorrect
alignment until you try and interchange tapes.

People think "oh, it's digital, I don't have to do maintenance" but it's
mechanical and it needs regular PM.

2. I was hired to transfer 12 hours of a
movie soundtrack recorded on a bad dat machine. Total loss. Would not
play material on any machine.

Send it to Eddie Ciletti. *He has a machine instrumented so he can
deliberately misalign it to match a tape made on a misaligned machine.

3. This might sound crazy, but I have a
lot of analog reels of tape(maxell,Sony) from the 70's that still play
fine. I also have tapes from the 80's and 90's that went sticky. They
needed to be baked. I never thought of baking dat tapes.

Baking DAT tapes will ruin them. *Sticky shed is a problem that ONLY
happens with a few tape formulations from a very short time period.
Problem is that a lot of audio engineers used those formulations when
they were available.

For the most part, analogue tape is a reliable archive medium. *I have
tapes from the mid-1930s that play back fine, with perhaps a bit of
shedding because the latex binder isn't the strongest thing ever.

But, being able to play something back after fifty years is NORMAL
and EXPECTED. *If you can't do that, what's the sense of the recording
medium anyway?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Yes as to the lost 12 hours of remote recording.
If I would have known about Eddie 4 years ago I would have called him.
My client has already paid the actors to dub all their parts over
again up in LA. He was mad. The engineer had just come back from
Africa and his portable dat machine was shot. I can't believe he
didn't check his work.
Glenn.

[david correia]

In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

3. This might sound crazy, but I have a
lot of analog reels of tape(maxell,Sony) from the 70's that still play
fine. I also have tapes from the 80's and 90's that went sticky. They
needed to be baked. I never thought of baking dat tapes.

Baking DAT tapes will ruin them. Sticky shed is a problem that ONLY
happens with a few tape formulations from a very short time period.
Problem is that a lot of audio engineers used those formulations when
they were available.

For the most part, analogue tape is a reliable archive medium. I have
tapes from the mid-1930s that play back fine, with perhaps a bit of
shedding because the latex binder isn't the strongest thing ever.



Few years ago I had a guy come in to transfer a ratty, cheapass cassette
of him speaking that he'd sent to his parents from Vietnam. The fricken
thing played perfectly.

Nice surprise.





David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
If I would have known about Eddie 4 years ago I would have called him.
My client has already paid the actors to dub all their parts over
again up in LA. He was mad. The engineer had just come back from
Africa and his portable dat machine was shot. I can't believe he
didn't check his work.

That's the thing about alignment issues.... they are insidious because
the tape will often play fine on the original machine. Which means
getting the engineer's original machine might have been a fix if it
hadn't been realigned afterward.

A couple of the professional portables have 4-head drums with confidence
monitoring, but even those can get out of alignment in ways that they will
play back their own tapes but nobody else can.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[voxguy]

OP with thanks to contributors on this as always. The only regret is
having to ship two machines back to
an out of town repair facility. I seem to remember the tech asking,
when I first sent them in due to constant
tape 'eating' -- whether the tapes in question were, in fact recorded
on the SAME deck(s). I suspect that'll
also be a question with regard to some of these older archival tapes
that I'm seeing the digital errors with
after having paid for the service/alignment.

Back when DATs were a regular part of the studio routine, I don't ever
recall having to be concerned about whether a
given DAT would perform properly if it was being played back on the
same deck that the original material was recorded
on. Hell I used to get DAT dubs from other studios for spots or
whatever -- and obviously stuff I tracked on my DAT
was sent out regularly to be played in other machines. I don't get
how that's a legitimate excuse as to why the decks
can't be realigned properly to read any DATs that were recorded in ANY
machines, be it the one that's having the problems
or not...

Even I could at least bring him a bunch of these DATs that were
getting munched or showing errors, why should it
matter whether they were made on the machine being serviced when it
comes to bringing them back to whatever normal
specs are. I have a little over $400 into the service on these this
time around - not including shipping... i don't expect
to have to use a Cleaning Tape when I get them back and use one of em
the first time out of the box.



On Sep 21, 7:22 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
wrote:
If I would have known about Eddie 4 years ago I would have called him.
My client has already paid the actors to dub all their parts over
again up in LA. He was mad. The engineer had just come back from
Africa and his portable dat machine was shot. I can't believe he
didn't check his work.

That's the thing about alignment issues.... they are insidious because
the tape will often play fine on the original machine. Which means
getting the engineer's original machine might have been a fix if it
hadn't been realigned afterward.

A couple of the professional portables have 4-head drums with confidence
monitoring, but even those can get out of alignment in ways that they will
play back their own tapes but nobody else can.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

voxguy wrote:
OP with thanks to contributors on this as always. The only regret is
having to ship two machines back to
an out of town repair facility. I seem to remember the tech asking,
when I first sent them in due to constant
tape 'eating' -- whether the tapes in question were, in fact recorded
on the SAME deck(s). I suspect that'll
also be a question with regard to some of these older archival tapes
that I'm seeing the digital errors with
after having paid for the service/alignment.

Could be. That's what happens when you put off doing regular maintenance.

Back when DATs were a regular part of the studio routine, I don't ever
recall having to be concerned about whether a
given DAT would perform properly if it was being played back on the
same deck that the original material was recorded
on. Hell I used to get DAT dubs from other studios for spots or
whatever -- and obviously stuff I tracked on my DAT
was sent out regularly to be played in other machines.

That's because the machines were being kept regularly maintained, so all
of the tapes that were being made were being made on properly aligned
machines, and they were being played back on properly aligned machines.

If you let your machines get out of alignment, you find yourself making
bad tapes. And you don't know they are bad until you try and play them
on another machine.

I don't get
how that's a legitimate excuse as to why the decks
can't be realigned properly to read any DATs that were recorded in ANY
machines, be it the one that's having the problems
or not...

For the same reason your analogue machine can't play back tapes with
incorrect azimuth unless the machine is set up for equivalently incorrect
azimuth.

If the tracks are in the wrong physical place on the tape because the
machine is mechanically misaligned, the playback deck does not know where
to look for them.

Even I could at least bring him a bunch of these DATs that were
getting munched or showing errors, why should it
matter whether they were made on the machine being serviced when it
comes to bringing them back to whatever normal
specs are.

Because your machine has probably been out of spec for years without your
noticing it. If you don't get it aligned every year or so, things go wrong.
These are delicate devices. They need regular maintenance JUST like analogue
machines do.

I have a little over $400 into the service on these this
time around - not including shipping... i don't expect
to have to use a Cleaning Tape when I get them back and use one of em
the first time out of the box.

The "cleaning tape" light comes on when the error rate goes through the
roof. When you see that light on, it can be for dozens of different reasons
unrelated to the heads being dirty. If you record a new tape and play it
back and the light comes on, it is because your machine is broken. Send it
back to the tech (or dump him and get a better tech) and get it fixed.

THEN, send it back every year for alignment so that it stays fixed. And
yes, it will cost a couple hundred bucks to have that done, which is not
a lot of money for a machine that cost a couple thousand dollars.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[voxguy]

Thanks Scott. Point well taken and I appreciate your helping
me keep this in perspective.

Mike

On Sep 21, 2:47 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
voxguy wrote:
OP with thanks to contributors on this as always. The only regret is
having to ship two machines back to
an out of town repair facility. I seem to remember the tech asking,
when I first sent them in due to constant
tape 'eating' -- whether the tapes in question were, in fact recorded
on the SAME deck(s). I suspect that'll
also be a question with regard to some of these older archival tapes
that I'm seeing the digital errors with
after having paid for the service/alignment.

Could be. That's what happens when you put off doing regular maintenance.

Back when DATs were a regular part of the studio routine, I don't ever
recall having to be concerned about whether a
givenDATwould perform properly if it was being played back on the
same deck that the original material was recorded
on. Hell I used to getDATdubs from other studios for spots or
whatever -- and obviously stuff I tracked on myDAT
was sent out regularly to be played in other machines.

That's because the machines were being kept regularly maintained, so all
of the tapes that were being made were being made on properly aligned
machines, and they were being played back on properly aligned machines.

If you let your machines get out of alignment, you find yourself making
bad tapes. And you don't know they are bad until you try and play them
on another machine.

I don't get
how that's a legitimate excuse as to why the decks
can't be realigned properly to read any DATs that were recorded in ANY
machines, be it the one that's having the problems
or not...

For the same reason your analogue machine can't play back tapes with
incorrect azimuth unless the machine is set up for equivalently incorrect
azimuth.

If the tracks are in the wrong physical place on the tape because the
machine is mechanically misaligned, the playback deck does not know where
to look for them.

Even I could at least bring him a bunch of these DATs that were
getting munched or showing errors, why should it
matter whether they were made on the machine being serviced when it
comes to bringing them back to whatever normal
specs are.

Because your machine has probably been out of spec for years without your
noticing it. If you don't get it aligned every year or so, things go wrong.
These are delicate devices. They need regular maintenance JUST like analogue
machines do.

I have a little over $400 into the service on these this
time around - not including shipping... i don't expect
to have to use a Cleaning Tape when I get them back and use one of em
the first time out of the box.

The "cleaning tape" light comes on when the error rate goes through the
roof. When you see that light on, it can be for dozens of different reasons
unrelated to the heads being dirty. If you record a new tape and play it
back and the light comes on, it is because your machine is broken. Send it
back to the tech (or dump him and get a better tech) and get it fixed.

THEN, send it back every year for alignment so that it stays fixed. And
yes, it will cost a couple hundred bucks to have that done, which is not
a lot of money for a machine that cost a couple thousand dollars.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."