[William Sommerwerck]

"hank alrich" wrote in message ...

I get them to do the right thing as I see and hear it, routinely.

First thing Jerry Tubb asked me was how much was I going to
force him to crush it. He took well to the idea that we weren't
going to do that, and the result often pops out of the car stereo
louder than the crushed stuff.

This suggests that impact depends more on the "local dynamics" of the sound,
rather than the "loudness".

One very astute engineer who used to post here regularly has
several times sent me messages talking about the sound of the
album as it's one he reaches for when he's put together a new
playback system, of speakers, or of cans. I suspect he is among
the few who has a sense of that stereo pair while listening.

If this is "Carry Me Home!", I've put it on my want list.

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"hank alrich" wrote in message ...

I get them to do the right thing as I see and hear it, routinely.

First thing Jerry Tubb asked me was how much was I going to
force him to crush it. He took well to the idea that we weren't
going to do that, and the result often pops out of the car stereo
louder than the crushed stuff.

This suggests that impact depends more on the "local dynamics" of the sound,
rather than the "loudness".

Right. If you bring all the levels up to a uniform flat line, the end user
adjusts the volume so that flat line is at a comfortable listening level.

Once that is done, the impact of dynamics is gone because there is never
anything any louder than that baseline level.

The argument in favor of crushing is merely that everybody else does it so
when your song is played in rotation, it will be quieter than the comfortable
listening level unless the user adjusts the volume. This is true, although
how much of a problem it is depends a lot on who the end user is and what
they are listening for.

The problem is not the crushing per se: the problem is that a lot of people
have music playing unattended without paying careful attention to it, and
music that is designed for that style of listening has to be devoid of
dynamics because such dynamics will call attention to the music. A track
that is softer than the others calls attention to itself as much as a track
that is louder than the others, and the same goes for a verse or chorus.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ralph Barone[_2_]]

wrote:
On Friday, September 5, 2014 9:31:51 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article m,



Scott Dorsey wrote



"The horse is dead here. It's time to stop it.

- show quoted text -"



So Scott Dorsey here is denying that this:



http://www.audiostream.com/content/h...oads-nevermind

even happened!



No, what I am denying is that it has anything to do with your personal

obsession and that we are all tired of hearing about your personal obsession

and that your incessant and moronic attempts to bring up the loudness wars

in an attempt to disrupt unrelated conversations is doing nothing but damage

to your own cause.



But according to Dorsey, it's not really happening. Neither is the
loudness race itself. Scott: I'm sure Rupert Murdoch has a job just for you.



No, I never said any of that. You are putting words in my mouth, just as

you have put words into the mouths of so many other people here. And your

abusive and heavy-handed tactics are going to make people ignore the loudness

issues that you claim to want to prevent.



You used to impress me as highly intelligent, informative, and helpful
Scott - but I'm beginning to think otherwise.



I don't care what you think about me, I only want you to stop with the abusive

hijacking of threads so you can inject irrelevant garbage. And the reason why

I want you to stop this is because I actually care about loudness problems

and your actions are making people believe that the entire anti-loudness camp

is a bunch of lunatics.



You are like the person on the subway who sits down next to people and grabs

their lapels and screams at them about Jesus at the top of their lungs. This

sort of behaviour does not get religious converts, it only offends potential

converts.

--scott





--

"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


Scott:


HOW is the concept that 'mastering contributes more to the outcome of the
sound than does the format' not relevant here?? I could see if I started
posting advice for owners of Honda 2-cycle engines in this thread, you
would be more than justified to call me out!


In the O.P.'s test, few people could discern the difference between the
same file played back as lossy and various lossless formats.


All I interjected, with links of sources to prove it, was that mastering
can, and often does, make the difference between the sound of the same
album on red book vs a high-res version of it. I then added that there
were commercial reasons for applying processing to the high-res release
that were not applied to the original release on CD.


How is that not relevant Scott?!


You just want to squelch the truth, that's your game! Deny any of it is
happening. State that someone is trolling or is irrelevant.


Well now I've got you in the same boat as Ian Shepherd("Dynamic Range
Day" my ass - as long as it's DR8 it's dynamic enough) - all talk but
then denial & hypocrisy.

OK, you most definitely jumped the shark with that post.

[Gray_Wolf]

On Fri, 5 Sep 2014 10:33:46 -0700 (PDT), PStamler
wrote:

[Snip]

If you want to organized a boycott of crunched music among consumers, good luck with it. I suspect you'll run up against militant apathy, as most music consumers these days view it as background wallpaper rather than a sensual experience to be enjoyed. Most of the experienced people here, by the way, reject *that* attitude too, but that's where the culture is right now. The late folksinger Dave Van Ronk, when he put on a record for visitors to listen to, would insist that they shut up and listen. For him, music was never background wallpaper. His attitude, unfortunately, has pretty much vanished.


A good friend once told me that I expect too much out of people. I
asked what he meant. He said "Have you ever seen a mule run in the
Kentucky Derby?" I quit betting on mules and being ****ed 'cause he
didn't win.

It seems to me that very few people I meet have much of a deep
appreciation for anything. Music, art, photography and so on. Someone
suggested that maybe they could be educated. Another person answered
with "How do you educate a brick?"

To me, It's much more enjoyable to spend time with people who share a
common interest that tilting with windmills. :-) The loudness wars
don't affect me as I don't listen much to that crap to begin with.

Cheers,
GW

[Trevor]

On 7/09/2014 1:54 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Trevor" wrote in message ...
I always prefer good mono to bad stereo, but the simple fact is stereo
is not really much harder than mono to get right these days, so nobody
would bother producing mono because they might "cock up" stereo. If
that were the case you could bet they would cock up mono as well!

I disagree.

Your prerogative.


As I said or suggested elsewhere in this thread, mono is
harder to get right than stereo.

Naturally you are entitled to your opinion.


The brain is "wired" to hear "space",
so stereo has the "home-court advantage". It's more difficult to achieve
a plausible, pleasing sense of space in mono.

No argument there, it's very hard to achieve a sense of space in mono.
Pleasing, plausible or otherwise. :-) But many mono recordings sounded,
and still sound just fine without a sense of space.

Trevor.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Gray_Wolf" wrote in message
...

It seems to me that very few people I meet have much of a deep
appreciation for anything. Music, art, photography and so on.
Someone suggested that maybe they could be educated. Another
person answered with "How do you educate a brick?"

To me, It's much more enjoyable to spend time with people who
share a common interest that tilting with windmills. :-) The loudness
wars don't affect me as I don't listen much to that crap to begin with.

The problem is that the bad tends to drive out the good. When people hear good
recording and playback, at some will have an earwakening.

[[email protected]]

Gray_Wolf wrote: "To me, It's much more enjoyable to spend time with people who share a
common interest that tilting with windmills. :-) The loudness wars
don't affect me as I don't listen much to that crap to begin with. "


But in a sense the loudness war already has affected what you listen to or buy to listen to. Mid-1990s early examples of super loud CDs(IE What's the story Morning Glory) triggered a wave of remastering of CDs of legacy artists(pre1990) in response to consumer complaints that discs they'd bought up to that point were "quiet" compared to the new, louder, ones.


That "remastering" trend continues, even though it consists of little more than clipping off 4-8dB of the loudest portions of those older and certainly more dynamic songs, and then applying make-up gain to bring what's left up to 0 full-scale.


And before anyone chimes in with "but the remasters are 24-bit", or, "but original source tapes" were used, let me add: WTF does it matter if better technology or sources were used if the f__ing thing gets half of its dynamic range compressed or brick-walled away, just to compete volume-wise with Imagine Dragons or Jay-Z in someone's playlist?!

I can accomplish that, along with fancy EQ, right at home with Audacity!


So Gray_Wolf, if you want a CD of an artist you like from 1975, you're forced to buy the remaster at the store or even online, unless you scour the second-hand sites, or travel to grass & pavement flea markets on weekends.

[[email protected]]

9:00 AMme
Gray_Wolf wrote: "To me, It's much more enjoyable to spend time with people who share a
common interest that tilting with windmills. :-) The loudness wars
don't affect me as I don't listen much to that crap to begin with. "


But in a sense the loudness war already has affected what you listen to or buy to listen to. Mid-1990s early examples of super loud CDs(IE What's the story Morning Glory) triggered a wave of remastering of CDs of legacy artists(pre1990) in response to consumer complaints that discs they'd bought up to that point were "quiet" compared to the new, louder, ones.


That "remastering" trend continues, even though it consists of little more than clipping off 4-8dB of the loudest portions of those older and certainly more dynamic songs, and then applying make-up gain to bring what's left up to 0 full-scale.


And before anyone chimes in with "but the remasters are 24-bit", or, "but original source tapes" were used, let me add: WTF does it matter if better technology or sources were used if the f__ing thing gets half of its dynamic range compressed or brick-walled away, just to compete volume-wise with Imagine Dragons or Jay-Z in someone's playlist?!

I can accomplish that, along with fancy EQ, right at home with Audacity!


So Gray_Wolf, if you want a CD of an artist you like from 1975, you're forced to buy the remaster at the store or even online, unless you scour the second-hand sites, or travel to grass & pavement flea markets on weekends to find the first-release on CD.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Trevor wrote:

No argument there, it's very hard to achieve a sense of space in mono.
Pleasing, plausible or otherwise. :-) But many mono recordings sounded,
and still sound just fine without a sense of space.

What you have available to you is a sense of depth. Listen to "Enlloro"
by Carmen Cavallero, there are several different planes although there is
no sense of localization.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

Mike Rivers wrote: "I've listened to surround at trade shows and most of the time, just
didn't "get" it. I don't want to be up there with the band, I want to be "


I think the best application of surround in music would be to replicate venue ambience(spectator applause, echo of the mains off the back wall of enclosed spaces, etc.) in recordings of live events. Simulate realistically a location in the audience, not the perspective of the drummer or a keyboardist.

Surround reissues of studio recordings, while exciting in their novelty, are mere 'pan-pot' surround in comparison.

[hank alrich]

Ralph Barone wrote:


OK, you most definitely jumped the shark with that post.

He dies in my kill file. Trolling is the whole gig for him. The sooner
he gets no response the sonner he will put his weenie back in his pants
and go haunt another venue.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

Gray_Wolf wrote:

A good friend once told me that I expect too much out of people. I
asked what he meant. He said "Have you ever seen a mule run in the
Kentucky Derby?"

That's a keeper. Thanks.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

"Gray_Wolf" wrote in message
...

It seems to me that very few people I meet have much of a deep
appreciation for anything. Music, art, photography and so on.
Someone suggested that maybe they could be educated. Another
person answered with "How do you educate a brick?"

To me, It's much more enjoyable to spend time with people who
share a common interest that tilting with windmills. :-) The loudness
wars don't affect me as I don't listen much to that crap to begin with.

The problem is that the bad tends to drive out the good. When people hear good
recording and playback, at some will have an earwakening.

Yes. I have seen that happen with folks who'd not heard decent playback.

I have also seen wonder in people who had never heard a live instrument
played directly in their immediate presence without any ampliication.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[William Sommerwerck]

wrote in message ...

Surround reissues of studio recordings, while exciting in
their novelty, are mere 'pan-pot' surround in comparison.

I depends on how you use the tools available to you.

[William Sommerwerck]

"hank alrich" wrote in message ...

I have also seen wonder in people who had never heard
a live instrument played directly in their immediate presence
without any ampliication.

Live sound has presence and "texture" you rarely hear in recordings.

[S. King]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:45:31 -0700, hank alrich wrote:

Ralph Barone wrote:


OK, you most definitely jumped the shark with that post.

He dies in my kill file. Trolling is the whole gig for him. The sooner
he gets no response the sonner he will put his weenie back in his pants
and go haunt another venue.

Since I plonked him I have avoided about 50 of his postings. Ahhhh! Maybe
a little sip of that great Tequila a shooter friend gave me to celebrate.

Steve King

[Gray_Wolf]

On Mon, 8 Sep 2014 08:45:32 -0700, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Gray_Wolf wrote:

A good friend once told me that I expect too much out of people. I
asked what he meant. He said "Have you ever seen a mule run in the
Kentucky Derby?"

That's a keeper. Thanks.


Another one I like came from an old biker friend.
"If you are gonna be stupid you better be tough."

Cheers

[hank alrich]

S. King wrote:

On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:45:31 -0700, hank alrich wrote:

Ralph Barone wrote:


OK, you most definitely jumped the shark with that post.

He dies in my kill file. Trolling is the whole gig for him. The sooner
he gets no response the sonner he will put his weenie back in his pants
and go haunt another venue.

Since I plonked him I have avoided about 50 of his postings. Ahhhh! Maybe
a little sip of that great Tequila a shooter friend gave me to celebrate.

Steve King

Right on!

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[jason]

On Mon, 8 Sep 2014 08:45:33 -0700 "hank alrich" wrote
in article
-snip-
Yes. I have seen that happen with folks who'd not heard decent playback.

I have also seen wonder in people who had never heard a live instrument
played directly in their immediate presence without any ampliication.

Isn't that a hoot!? I make location recordings of local chamber ensembles
and am always surprised and gratified when members of the audience
exclaim their gratitude at having "finally" heard live musicians. (Of
course, my recordings have nothing to do with this reaction - I'm just
glad people are willing to spend a little to hear real musicians
performing real music. Live. My friends who play the music pocket a
little for that experience and they appreciate the appreciation.)

Jason