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#41
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...
On 8/22/2014 7:27 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote: Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"? They do? Of course. Supra-aural phones sit /on/ the pinna, while circum-aural phones /surround/ the pinna. Neither maintains the pinna's full effect in modifying the sound. Every headphone manufacturer thinks his sounds like it's supposed to "sound like." No, there are ways of rationally judging the subjective response of a headphone. This has been understood for many years. |
#43
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
On 8/22/2014 2:39 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote: Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"? They do? Of course. Supra-aural phones sit /on/ the pinna, while circum-aural phones /surround/ the pinna. Neither maintains the pinna's full effect in modifying the sound. "They do?" referred to the statement that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones sounds like. Not about how the headphones interaction with the pinnae affects the sound. There's a design for a standard headphone test fixture somewhere, and most manufacturers use that when testing their own products (and the competition). You can probably find it on the web if you look, and care. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#44
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
geoff wrote:
'm pretty sure that's what Scott was referring to, as they are useful for picking out high-mid and treble problems. I.e., sometimes veryuseful for editing. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#45
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 8/22/2014 12:58 PM, wrote: So let's break this down another way: Ratings. On Amazon, for instance, the HD-280 Pro, MDR-V6 & 7506, Shure SRH-440, and even the Grado SR-60 and 80, average 4.5 out of 5 stars. What explains that - people not knowing what to listen for, or what sounds good in a can? One possibility: "This was a really expensive set of headphones and they sound a lot better than the ones that came with my iPod." Another possibility: "Free shipping." I doubt that most people who rate things on Amazon (or just about any other "ratings" web site) don't have a standard for comparison. If they like it, they'll rate it high. If they don't like it or it feels flimsy or they broke it when getting it out of the box, they'll rate it low. Research has indicated that in many cases many of the reviews were written by paid company shills. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#46
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
hank alrich wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote: On 8/22/2014 12:58 PM, wrote: So let's break this down another way: Ratings. On Amazon, for instance, the HD-280 Pro, MDR-V6 & 7506, Shure SRH-440, and even the Grado SR-60 and 80, average 4.5 out of 5 stars. What explains that - people not knowing what to listen for, or what sounds good in a can? One possibility: "This was a really expensive set of headphones and they sound a lot better than the ones that came with my iPod." Another possibility: "Free shipping." I doubt that most people who rate things on Amazon (or just about any other "ratings" web site) don't have a standard for comparison. If they like it, they'll rate it high. If they don't like it or it feels flimsy or they broke it when getting it out of the box, they'll rate it low. Research has indicated that in many cases many of the reviews were written by paid company shills. MANISCHEVITZ RATED 79 BY WINE SPECTATOR! --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#47
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...
I doubt that most people who rate things on Amazon (or just about any other "ratings" web site) don't have a standard for comparison. If they like it, they'll rate it high. If they don't like it or it feels flimsy or they broke it when getting it out of the box, they'll rate it low. One "don't" too many, there. I'm a Vine reviewer, and am generally surprised at the high quality of the reviewing. Most of the people who grab expensive items actually give them thoughtful reviews. "Shill" reviews are fairly easy to spot. Most are inane gushes. |
#48
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...
On 8/22/2014 2:39 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote: Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"? They do? Of course. [paragraph break should have been inserted here by YT] Supra-aural phones sit /on/ the pinna, while circum-aural phones /surround/ the pinna. Neither maintains the pinna's full effect in modifying the sound. "They do?" referred to the statement that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones sounds like. Not about how the headphones interaction with the pinnae affects the sound. Which is the point -- this agreement /shouldn't/ occur. There's a design for a standard headphone test fixture somewhere, and most manufacturers use that when testing their own products (and the competition). You can probably find it on the web if you look, and care. Just because the coupler is a standard, doesn't mean it gives subjectively useful results. The issue of headphone response is further confused by the difference between free-field and diffuse-field response. Shall we go into that? It's only 1PM, and I'm running out of energy. |
#49
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 8/22/2014 2:39 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote: Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"? They do? Of course. Supra-aural phones sit /on/ the pinna, while circum-aural phones /surround/ the pinna. Neither maintains the pinna's full effect in modifying the sound. "They do?" referred to the statement that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones sounds like. Not about how the headphones interaction with the pinnae affects the sound. There's a design for a standard headphone test fixture somewhere, and most manufacturers use that when testing their own products (and the competition). You can probably find it on the web if you look, and care. ....but will you ever find the results of the tests on the Web? -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#50
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
On 8/22/2014 3:47 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Just because the coupler is a standard, doesn't mean it gives subjectively useful results. Maybe so, maybe not, but at least it's a way to compare measurements, or at least determine if a particular headset is working the way it was designed (that is, measures within tolerance to the manufacturer's gold standard) The issue of headphone response is further confused by the difference between free-field and diffuse-field response. Shall we go into that? It's only 1PM, and I'm running out of energy. No, because if you're talking about subjective results, all subjects are different. If you don't like 'em, try something different. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#51
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
All though I dislike using headphones for 'professional' listening, there are times when the need arises. I bought a secondhand pair of AKG K240 MkII headphones, thinking they would be the best headphones that would ever fall within my budget and might be adequate for occasional monitoring use. They turned out to be a big disappointment. There is a 16dB dip in the response just below 4 Kc/s and a sharp 8dB peak at 6.5 Kc/s. Both sides are similar, so it isn't a fault in one earpiece. Before buying, I had read some of the 'independent' reviews; they were utter bull****, not one of them even noticed those two glaring faults. For comparison I bought a pair of AKG K44s, they suffer from far more minor ripples in the response, including a peak at HF, but overall they sound better than the K240. They also have much better isolation, being semi-closed back, and they are only 1/10th of the price. I would still recommend the Koss PRO35A for over-the-ear (open) phones. Nearly no isolation, but they don't fatigue, don't hurt and sound pretty smooth. They're excellent for bass-checking mixes, too - they have quite a bit of bass. They're not ideal for tracking - click bleed is a problem, even at low volumes. I've taken to using a pair of plug-phones I like for tracking acoustic instruments when a click is in play. -- Les Cargill |
#52
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
John Williamson wrote: On 21/08/2014 22:31, Adrian Tuddenham wrote: John Williamson wrote: On 21/08/2014 21:34, Adrian Tuddenham wrote: I did consider using a cushion, but decided that something well-damped but solid, like a pile of books, would give more realistic result because it was acoustically more like my head (although I do feel a little woolly-headed at times). Did you drill a hole to simulate the ear cavity? No, my old copies of Wireless World are far too valuable a resource for that. I was only trying to get confirmation of what I heard and some rough measurement of its magnitude. If my measurements had been 50% in error, it would have made little difference to my point that a so-called 'monitoring quality' pair of headphones shouldn't have sharp humps and dips like that in the response curve. Fair enough. I wasn't sure how exact you were being. I suppose the ultimate test stand for headphones and ear buds would be a firm, not hard, dummy head with microphones at the eardrum position and head surface with dummy ear cavities. Or put it on my own head with tiny mics near my ear holes. (Jokes about dummies now anticipated.) Heck, just shove an omni measurement mic up yer nose! (Warning: don't try this at home kids! ) -- Les Cargill |
#53
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
On 23/08/2014 12:36 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote: I think what Dorsey meant was that perfectly flat headphones do not translate too well to how we(humans) hear. No, I mean that headphones are a tool that engineers use, and sometimes you do not want them to be flat or accurate. The MD-7506 is popular because it is so exaggerated on top and bottom that it becomes a useful tool for editing and field recording work. You can't judge EQ accurately on a 7506, but it's not _for_ that. That's a job for a different tool. It's not pleasant to listen to or accurate, but it isn't supposed to be. It's not for that either. --scott When I got mine pair (soon after they were first out) I was listening to some music at home late at night, and had a sudden panic-attack that my loudspeaker had inadvertently come on, and was waking the house. The illusionary effect was such that I could have sworn that my trousers were flapping ! geoff |
#54
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
On 23/08/2014 12:54 a.m., William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... William Sommerwerck wrote: This has puzzled me for years. Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"? They often don't! What about Sennheisers? Almost everybody agrees that most of their products are basically neutral. I find my HD280s are great for iso, but rather thin and tizzy at the top. geoff |
#55
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Or put it on my own head with tiny mics near my ear holes. (Jokes about dummies now anticipated.) This is, in fact, the correct way of doing it. You're blocking the ear canal so you're missing the main canal resonance but everything else should be good. The tiny Beyer lav mikes were used in one study and seemed to be a good choice because they were small enough not to block the ear canal. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#56
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote: Or put it on my own head with tiny mics near my ear holes. (Jokes about dummies now anticipated.) This is, in fact, the correct way of doing it. You're blocking the ear canal so you're missing the main canal resonance but everything else should be good. The tiny Beyer lav mikes were used in one study and seemed to be a good choice because they were small enough not to block the ear canal. I was using some naked pressure capsules about 5mm diameter. Their S/N ratio isn't wonderful, but their response is inherently flat because there is nothing in their construction big enough to interfere with the sound. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#57
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... I doubt that most people who rate things on Amazon (or just about any other "ratings" web site) don't have a standard for comparison. If they like it, they'll rate it high. If they don't like it or it feels flimsy or they broke it when getting it out of the box, they'll rate it low. One "don't" too many, there. I'm a Vine reviewer, and am generally surprised at the high quality of the reviewing. Most of the people who grab expensive items actually give them thoughtful reviews. "Shill" reviews are fairly easy to spot. Most are inane gushes. That depends on the skill of the pro writer. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#58
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
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#59
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Gray_Wolf wrote: "Scott, What's your opinion on the Sony MDR-V600? What could I replace them with for stunningly superior performance? :-) "
The only things the V600s share in common with the V6 or 7506 is their manufacturer. If the 7506 is "not neutral" then the V600 is the Swiss Alps, response-wise! They were, at the time, Sony's 'Beats', LOL. All boom & sizzle, not much in between. Big stiff plasticky cheap ear muffs that made my ears sweat. I should know: I bought one back when I didn't know better. My personal picks are the Shure SRH440 or the Beyer DT-880 Pro(250ohm version). |
#60
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Gray_Wolf wrote:
The MDR-7506 is useful because it's not neutral. Scott, What's your opinion on the Sony MDR-V600? What could I replace them with for stunningly superior performance? :-) I have no idea! I remember trying them out when they came out and being surprised they were diffeernt than the MDR-V6 (which is like the MDR-7506), but how they were different I don't remember. Personally I like the MDR-V6 for editing, the Grado SR-80 for casual listening, the Etymotic in-ears for field recording, and I have to admit I'm still using the Beyer DT-100s for tracking. I have a pair of Stax but they fall off when I move my head... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#61
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
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#62
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
"Gray_Wolf" wrote in message
news Thanks for the reply, I'll check around. Is that the Stax electrostatics you have? I've had Lambda Signature phones for a long time (along with the diffuse-field equalizer). I used them occasionally when making live recordings, but I most-often used the MDR-CD6, because it could block a full orchestra when I was standing right behind the conductor. I can't recommend STAX headphones for anything other than strictly acoustic music. |
#63
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
On 25-08-2014 15:30, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Gray_Wolf" wrote in message I can't recommend STAX headphones for anything other than strictly acoustic music. My SR3's used to be good for anything where open headphones would do the job, until an earth loop caused the resistors in the powering box to burn open. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#64
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AKG headphones K240 & K44
Jeff Henig wrote:
Scott, which model of the Etymotic in-ears are you using? I have the ER-4s... not the binaural ones, the stereo ones. I have custom ear-molds that were done by a local audiologist and then wear a Peltor hearing protector over top of the whole thing for additional isolation. I'm taking a look at all of the headsets mentioned in this thread for future use. I currently own a set of AKG 270Ss and I had a set of AT M40s (they broke when I got stupid and didn't watch the kiddos closely enough). The isolation is WONDERFUL for tracking, but the sound is boxy, shallow, and upper mid-heavy for listening. The same thing was happening with the M40s. Yes! Is that the kind of sound the AT M50s have? And if so, is there much in that price range that will allow for un-boxy neutrality? I don't know. You might really like the cheap Grados... they aren't boxy at all, and they are great for casual listening, but they tend to make bad recordings sound good. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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