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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default AKG headphones K240 & K44

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...
On 8/22/2014 7:27 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on
the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend
to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"?


They do?


Of course. Supra-aural phones sit /on/ the pinna, while circum-aural phones
/surround/ the pinna. Neither maintains the pinna's full effect in modifying
the sound.


Every headphone manufacturer thinks his sounds like it's supposed to "sound
like."


No, there are ways of rationally judging the subjective response of a
headphone. This has been understood for many years.

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On 8/22/2014 2:39 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on
the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend
to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"?


They do?


Of course. Supra-aural phones sit /on/ the pinna, while circum-aural
phones /surround/ the pinna. Neither maintains the pinna's full effect
in modifying the sound.


"They do?" referred to the statement that people tend to agree on what a
given pair of headphones sounds like. Not about how the headphones
interaction with the pinnae affects the sound.

There's a design for a standard headphone test fixture somewhere, and
most manufacturers use that when testing their own products (and the
competition). You can probably find it on the web if you look, and care.


--
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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geoff wrote:

'm pretty sure that's what Scott was referring to, as they are useful
for picking out high-mid and treble problems.


I.e., sometimes veryuseful for editing.

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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

I doubt that most people who rate things on Amazon (or just about
any other "ratings" web site) don't have a standard for comparison.
If they like it, they'll rate it high. If they don't like it or it feels
flimsy
or they broke it when getting it out of the box, they'll rate it low.


One "don't" too many, there.

I'm a Vine reviewer, and am generally surprised at the high quality of the
reviewing. Most of the people who grab expensive items actually give them
thoughtful reviews.

"Shill" reviews are fairly easy to spot. Most are inane gushes.

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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default AKG headphones K240 & K44

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

On 8/22/2014 2:39 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on
the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend
to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"?


They do?


Of course.

[paragraph break should have been inserted here by YT]
Supra-aural phones sit /on/ the pinna, while circum-aural
phones /surround/ the pinna. Neither maintains the pinna's full effect
in modifying the sound.


"They do?" referred to the statement that people tend to agree on what
a given pair of headphones sounds like. Not about how the headphones
interaction with the pinnae affects the sound.


Which is the point -- this agreement /shouldn't/ occur.

There's a design for a standard headphone test fixture somewhere, and most
manufacturers use that when testing their own products (and the
competition). You can probably find it on the web if you look, and care.


Just because the coupler is a standard, doesn't mean it gives subjectively
useful results.

The issue of headphone response is further confused by the difference between
free-field and diffuse-field response. Shall we go into that? It's only 1PM,
and I'm running out of energy.

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Adrian Tuddenham[_2_] Adrian Tuddenham[_2_] is offline
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Default AKG headphones K240 & K44

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 8/22/2014 2:39 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Most headphones alter (or remove) the effect of the pinna on
the sound entering the ear canal. So how is it that people tend
to agree on what a given pair of headphones "sound like"?


They do?


Of course. Supra-aural phones sit /on/ the pinna, while circum-aural
phones /surround/ the pinna. Neither maintains the pinna's full effect
in modifying the sound.


"They do?" referred to the statement that people tend to agree on what a
given pair of headphones sounds like. Not about how the headphones
interaction with the pinnae affects the sound.

There's a design for a standard headphone test fixture somewhere, and
most manufacturers use that when testing their own products (and the
competition). You can probably find it on the web if you look, and care.


....but will you ever find the results of the tests on the Web?

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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Default AKG headphones K240 & K44

On 8/22/2014 3:47 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Just because the coupler is a standard, doesn't mean it gives
subjectively useful results.


Maybe so, maybe not, but at least it's a way to compare measurements, or
at least determine if a particular headset is working the way it was
designed (that is, measures within tolerance to the manufacturer's gold
standard)


The issue of headphone response is further confused by the difference
between free-field and diffuse-field response. Shall we go into that?
It's only 1PM, and I'm running out of energy.


No, because if you're talking about subjective results, all subjects are
different. If you don't like 'em, try something different.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com


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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
All though I dislike using headphones for 'professional' listening,
there are times when the need arises. I bought a secondhand pair of AKG
K240 MkII headphones, thinking they would be the best headphones that
would ever fall within my budget and might be adequate for occasional
monitoring use. They turned out to be a big disappointment.

There is a 16dB dip in the response just below 4 Kc/s and a sharp 8dB
peak at 6.5 Kc/s. Both sides are similar, so it isn't a fault in one
earpiece. Before buying, I had read some of the 'independent' reviews;
they were utter bull****, not one of them even noticed those two glaring
faults.

For comparison I bought a pair of AKG K44s, they suffer from far more
minor ripples in the response, including a peak at HF, but overall they
sound better than the K240. They also have much better isolation, being
semi-closed back, and they are only 1/10th of the price.


I would still recommend the Koss PRO35A for over-the-ear (open) phones.
Nearly no isolation, but they don't fatigue, don't hurt and sound pretty
smooth. They're excellent for bass-checking mixes, too - they
have quite a bit of bass.

They're not ideal for tracking - click bleed is a problem, even
at low volumes. I've taken to using a pair of plug-phones I like for
tracking acoustic instruments when a click is in play.

--
Les Cargill
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Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

On 21/08/2014 22:31, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

On 21/08/2014 21:34, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
I did consider using a cushion, but decided that something well-damped
but solid, like a pile of books, would give more realistic result
because it was acoustically more like my head (although I do feel a
little woolly-headed at times).


Did you drill a hole to simulate the ear cavity?

No, my old copies of Wireless World are far too valuable a resource for
that. I was only trying to get confirmation of what I heard and some
rough measurement of its magnitude. If my measurements had been 50% in
error, it would have made little difference to my point that a so-called
'monitoring quality' pair of headphones shouldn't have sharp humps and
dips like that in the response curve.


Fair enough. I wasn't sure how exact you were being. I suppose the
ultimate test stand for headphones and ear buds would be a firm, not
hard, dummy head with microphones at the eardrum position and head
surface with dummy ear cavities.


Or put it on my own head with tiny mics near my ear holes. (Jokes about
dummies now anticipated.)



Heck, just shove an omni measurement mic up yer nose!

(Warning: don't try this at home kids! )

--
Les Cargill

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On 23/08/2014 12:36 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
I think what Dorsey meant was that perfectly flat headphones do not translate too well to how we(humans) hear.


No, I mean that headphones are a tool that engineers use, and sometimes you
do not want them to be flat or accurate. The MD-7506 is popular because it
is so exaggerated on top and bottom that it becomes a useful tool for editing
and field recording work.

You can't judge EQ accurately on a 7506, but it's not _for_ that. That's a
job for a different tool. It's not pleasant to listen to or accurate, but it
isn't supposed to be. It's not for that either.
--scott



When I got mine pair (soon after they were first out) I was listening to
some music at home late at night, and had a sudden panic-attack that my
loudspeaker had inadvertently come on, and was waking the house. The
illusionary effect was such that I could have sworn that my trousers
were flapping !


geoff
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On 23/08/2014 12:54 a.m., William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...

William Sommerwerck wrote:

This has puzzled me for years. Most headphones alter (or remove)
the effect of the pinna on the sound entering the ear canal. So how
is it that people tend to agree on what a given pair of headphones
"sound like"?


They often don't!


What about Sennheisers? Almost everybody agrees that most of their
products are basically neutral.



I find my HD280s are great for iso, but rather thin and tizzy at the top.

geoff
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Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Or put it on my own head with tiny mics near my ear holes. (Jokes about
dummies now anticipated.)


This is, in fact, the correct way of doing it. You're blocking the ear
canal so you're missing the main canal resonance but everything else should
be good.

The tiny Beyer lav mikes were used in one study and seemed to be a good
choice because they were small enough not to block the ear canal.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Scott Dorsey wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Or put it on my own head with tiny mics near my ear holes. (Jokes about
dummies now anticipated.)


This is, in fact, the correct way of doing it. You're blocking the ear
canal so you're missing the main canal resonance but everything else should
be good.

The tiny Beyer lav mikes were used in one study and seemed to be a good
choice because they were small enough not to block the ear canal.


I was using some naked pressure capsules about 5mm diameter. Their S/N
ratio isn't wonderful, but their response is inherently flat because
there is nothing in their construction big enough to interfere with the
sound.


--
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www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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William Sommerwerck wrote:

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

I doubt that most people who rate things on Amazon (or just about
any other "ratings" web site) don't have a standard for comparison.
If they like it, they'll rate it high. If they don't like it or it feels
flimsy
or they broke it when getting it out of the box, they'll rate it low.


One "don't" too many, there.

I'm a Vine reviewer, and am generally surprised at the high quality of the
reviewing. Most of the people who grab expensive items actually give them
thoughtful reviews.

"Shill" reviews are fairly easy to spot. Most are inane gushes.


That depends on the skill of the pro writer.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
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Gray_Wolf wrote: "Scott, What's your opinion on the Sony MDR-V600? What could I replace them with for stunningly superior performance? :-) "

The only things the V600s share in common with the V6 or 7506 is their manufacturer. If the 7506 is "not neutral" then the V600 is the Swiss Alps, response-wise! They were, at the time, Sony's 'Beats', LOL. All boom & sizzle, not much in between. Big stiff plasticky cheap ear muffs that made my ears sweat. I should know: I bought one back when I didn't know better.

My personal picks are the Shure SRH440 or the Beyer DT-880 Pro(250ohm version).
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Gray_Wolf wrote:

The MDR-7506 is useful because it's not neutral.


Scott, What's your opinion on the Sony MDR-V600? What could I replace
them with for stunningly superior performance? :-)


I have no idea! I remember trying them out when they came out and being
surprised they were diffeernt than the MDR-V6 (which is like the MDR-7506),
but how they were different I don't remember.

Personally I like the MDR-V6 for editing, the Grado SR-80 for casual
listening, the Etymotic in-ears for field recording, and I have to admit
I'm still using the Beyer DT-100s for tracking. I have a pair of Stax
but they fall off when I move my head...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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"Gray_Wolf" wrote in message
news
Thanks for the reply, I'll check around. Is that the Stax
electrostatics you have?


I've had Lambda Signature phones for a long time (along with the diffuse-field
equalizer). I used them occasionally when making live recordings, but I
most-often used the MDR-CD6, because it could block a full orchestra when I
was standing right behind the conductor.

I can't recommend STAX headphones for anything other than strictly acoustic
music.



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On 25-08-2014 15:30, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Gray_Wolf" wrote in message


I can't recommend STAX headphones for anything other than strictly
acoustic music.


My SR3's used to be good for anything where open headphones would do the
job, until an earth loop caused the resistors in the powering box to
burn open.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen




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Jeff Henig wrote:
Scott, which model of the Etymotic in-ears are you using?


I have the ER-4s... not the binaural ones, the stereo ones. I have custom
ear-molds that were done by a local audiologist and then wear a Peltor
hearing protector over top of the whole thing for additional isolation.

I'm taking a look at all of the headsets mentioned in this thread for
future use.

I currently own a set of AKG 270Ss and I had a set of AT M40s (they broke
when I got stupid and didn't watch the kiddos closely enough). The
isolation is WONDERFUL for tracking, but the sound is boxy, shallow, and
upper mid-heavy for listening. The same thing was happening with the M40s.


Yes!

Is that the kind of sound the AT M50s have? And if so, is there much in
that price range that will allow for un-boxy neutrality?


I don't know.

You might really like the cheap Grados... they aren't boxy at all, and they
are great for casual listening, but they tend to make bad recordings sound
good.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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