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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Most classical CDs have (on an absolute basis) poor sound, because they
were recorded and mastered with the same "attitudes" that controlled
the LPs, cassettes, etc.


More crap.

--
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In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote:
I'll say it again... Once multi-track recording became commonplace, any
lingering belief that recordings should sound like a live performance
went out the window. The introduction of CD, which removed the
limitations of LP and CC, should have "reset" the industry to Living
Stereo and Living Presence, but it didn't -- presumably because
recording engineers "knew" that multi-tracking made a "better"
recording.


It's interesting to listen to the Solti Ring in the order the operas
were recorded -- R, S, G, W -- because "Reingold" has the best sound.
As Decca's recording equipment got more complex, the sound became
subtly less-natural.


The superb sound of the best SACD and BD recordings is partly due to the
improvement in recording equipment over the past 20 years, but is
mostly the deliberate result of engineers making recordings they know
will be most-often played on good equipment -- that do not need to be
compromised for listening on compromised equipment.


The reasons that made multi-tracking 'the way to go' many years ago
haven't changed today. Nor have the disadvantages. It's a total red
herring.

--
*Eschew obfuscation *

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William Sommerwerck wrote:
I'll throw this at all of you...

For those of you who //don't// listen to or record classical and jazz --
what, exactly, is it that you use as your standard for a "good"
recording? That's not a rhetorical question.



That's a good question. I'd say I listen for arrangement, with the
recording supporting that.

My musical perception was trained around radio, so whatever would work
on radio works for me.

I'll say it again... Once multi-track recording became commonplace, any
lingering belief that recordings should sound like a live performance
went out the window.


It was a new toy. People tried to do things that could not easily be
done in live performance.

I was not around, but I imagine that Les Paul & Mary Ford's "How High
The Moon" caused quite a stir. And I think it sounds marvelous.

Records by Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra used relatively close-micing
"crooner" vocals.

This has been going on for a while.

The introduction of CD, which removed the
limitations of LP and CC, should have "reset" the industry to Living
Stereo and Living Presence, but it didn't -- presumably because
recording engineers "knew" that multi-tracking made a "better" recording.


Should have? Not after people because accustomed to nonlive methods of
arrangement and production.

I'd say that CD eventually brought back live performance as a revenue
generator*. And that there are certainly DVDs of live performance where
the sound is of high caliber.

*CD plus home CD burners with the Innernets thrown in...

It's interesting to listen to the Solti Ring in the order the operas
were recorded -- R, S, G, W -- because "Reingold" has the best sound. As
Decca's recording equipment got more complex, the sound became subtly
less-natural.

The superb sound of the best SACD and BD recordings is partly due to the
improvement in recording equipment over the past 20 years, but is mostly
the deliberate result of engineers making recordings they know will be
most-often played on good equipment -- that do not need to be
compromised for listening on compromised equipment.


I have no way of evaluating the truth or falsity of that.

The title of this thread is "What you buy to listen to music on...
[affects the way the recording is made]". This has /always/ been true.
The recording industry (with a few exceptions -- mostly smaller labels)
has /always/ pandered to the lowest common denominator of playback
equipment.



Right. And I have no problem with that myself.

--
Les Cargill
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My whole premise is that if people start buying "real" equipment again - stereo/surround components with 50-150 watts/channel and full-sized speakers, demand for squashed music could be offset by demand for higher fidelity material.

It won't happen overnight, but it will.
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"Les Cargill" wrote in message ...

The superb sound of the best SACD and BD recordings is partly due to the
improvement in recording equipment over the past 20 years, but is mostly
the deliberate result of engineers making recordings they know will be
most-often played on good equipment -- that do not need to be
compromised for listening on compromised equipment.


I have no way of evaluating the truth or falsity of that.


And I admit I'm speculating. I just find it "interesting" that, since the
introduction of SACD and BD Audio, the number of really fine-sounding
recordings has significantly increased.


The title of this thread is "What you buy to listen to music on...
[affects the way the recording is made]". This has /always/ been true.
The recording industry (with a few exceptions -- mostly smaller labels)
has /always/ pandered to the lowest common denominator of playback
equipment.


Right. And I have no problem with that myself.


And I acknowledge that it has often been a necessity. I'm bothered, though,
when necessities aren't abandoned because they are no longer needed.



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wrote in message ...

My whole premise is that if people start buying "real" equipment
again - stereo/surround components with 50-150 watts/channel
and full-sized speakers, demand for squashed music could be offset
by demand for higher fidelity material.


It won't happen overnight, but it will.


Hard to say. Like many audiophiles, my system does double duty -- it's
primarily a six-channel audiophile surround system for music that handles
video as well. (There's an inexpensive KLH Audio subwoofer for N.1
recordings.)

Most people are set up the other way. Listening to music is secondary. Most
listeners refuse to spend more than a few hundred dollars for speakers, and
miss out on the major improvements they'd get from $2K to $4K worth of
speakers.

When someone says to me "Why should I spend $15K on an audio system, I say
"How much did you spend on your car?"


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wrote:
My whole premise is that if people start buying "real" equipment
again - stereo/surround components with 50-150 watts/channel and
full-sized speakers, demand for squashed music could be offset by
demand for higher fidelity material.

It won't happen overnight, but it will.



This will not happen.

1) The media vector for "hifi" outside hobbyists was... Playboy, which
is generally accepted as not just a skin mag, but also a magazine which
taught the farm kids who went into the military and into urban-center
jobs which fork to use, which suit to buy...

2) Eventually, magazines like Stereo Review spun out of Playboy ( I
don't know if this was direct or not; doesn't matter ). Are there
magazines like this now? I doubt it. I doubt any of my nephews know
what "total harmonics distortion" means at all. Well, one does, but
he's a pro.

3) If you had a wife and a pair of 10" stereo speakers on the TV, as the
TV got thinner you lost the place to put the 10" speakers. So here comes
the Bose Acoustimass.... please note that Direct TV is pushing the "no
wires" thing heavily in an ad campaign. I don't think guys mind wires
and when you see a mass ad campaign like that, there's survey
data under it.

4) People no longer think of electronics as being in a form factor
larger than a cell phone. There's a small backlash amongst the kids
with the invigoration of interest in vinyl, but we'll see if it
lasts. They buy "USB turntables". There are also guitar amp sims in
cell phone apps...

5) It could be that electronics will follow the pattern of transistor
radios becoming "stereos" ( with cell phones being the modern
"transistor radio" ) but that remains to be seen. 30 year olds
don't have the real estate consumption habits of people who want 15"
woofers.

6) If you hear what's on jukeboxes & radio these days, better
reproduction would not be a positive. You can reproduce obnoxious
triangle-wave Autotune vocals with anything. Next: dentist's drill
solos...

7) It remains to be seen what the Beats sale to Apple means. Probably,
it means more and different headphone offerings under the Apple brand,
but it could also mean the content catalog. Or both.

--
Les Cargill



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wrote:
My whole premise is that if people start buying "real" equipment again - stereo/surround components with 50-150 watts/channel and full-sized speakers, demand for squashed music could be offset by demand for higher fidelity material.


Not really, because you're missing whay people aren't buying full-sized systems
anymore. The way most people listen to music has changed, and that is a
consequence of what most people consider music as being for.

And that is a change that has been taking place since the phonograph came out.
I don't think it's a good one, but it is what it is, and Erik Satie predicted
it with his description of "music as furniture" a century ago.
--scott

--
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William Sommerwerck wrote:

This lasted until multi-track recording arrived, at which point the sound of
the orchestra was dissected and reassembled to produce an "idealized" sound
that lacked a strong relationship to to the original.


This happened long before multitrack recording. The notion of spotmiking
orchestras to allow additional tonal control and to create a closer and
larger than life sound dates back to Toscanini.

Of course, the phonograph record itself had limited dynamic range, and the
mastering engineer would often pull up the quieter passages. (Bud Fried told
me on several occasions that the original masterings of the Solti "Ring" had a
dynamic range of barely 20dB.) If you've never heard a dbx II encoded LP,
you're in for a surprise.


Not just the mastering engineer, often the recording engineer would be
doing some very aggressive gainriding.

But more than that, it was common especially in the early days of the LP
for orchestras to perform differently, with restricted dynamic range, just
for the recording.

The Compact Disk ought to have brought these musical "perversions" to an end,
but it didn't. The CD was a mass-market replacement for the LP and Compact
Cassette, so these atrocities continued. It wasn't until the SACD and BD-Audio
disk arrived that recording engineers started taking absolute fidelity
seriously * -- because they knew these recordings would be played on very good
equipment.


What happened was that in the 1950s we start getting some attention to
deliberately realistic recordings, with the work of Bert Whyte and Bob Fine
and those crew. But, these recordings were always a very limited item,
made for a very limited market. That continued throughout the CD era;
even as DG was making horribly multimiked recordings, there were cleaner
and more realistic recordings from labels like Telarc and Pope Music and
M-A and Sheffield Labs....and some of those labels changed as they grew and
some didn't.

"A worrying trend: there is no place for neutrality and fidelity in today's
music business. Discuss."


I think there is a place for neutrality and fidelity, but I don't think it is
a huge place and I don't think it has ever been. I think it will remain the
domain of small labels and while I think that's a shame (since it pays my
salary, I'd like to see it become as popular as possible), I don't see it
changing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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(Scott Dorsey) writes:

wrote:
My whole premise is that if people start buying "real" equipment again - stereo/surround components with 50-150 watts/channel and full-sized speakers, demand for squashed music could be offset by demand for higher fidelity material.


Not really, because you're missing whay people aren't buying full-sized systems
anymore. The way most people listen to music has changed, and that is a
consequence of what most people consider music as being for.


And that is a change that has been taking place since the phonograph came out.
I don't think it's a good one, but it is what it is, and Erik Satie predicted
it with his description of "music as furniture" a century ago.
--scott


+1 many times over.

Underlying all of this is musical aesthetics (or a lack thereof). I've really seen
this contrasted in the new area where I've moved -- it's 70%+ LDS (Mormon).

I've gained an entirely new respect for these folks because music is so interwoven
with their culture. I've worked with several of the high school and college kids
here and they always surprise me in their musicallity. Most seem to understand tempo
and pitch, so much so that they can then deliver good, engaging performances. It's
been a breath of fresh air in that regard.

Music here is almost as woven into the daily cultural fabric as it is in Europe.
Makes a difference all the way around, in my estimation -- what you listen to and
how you listen to it.

Frank
Mobile Audio

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On 2/09/2014 7:42 a.m., Frank Stearns wrote:


Underlying all of this is musical aesthetics (or a lack thereof). I've really seen
this contrasted in the new area where I've moved -- it's 70%+ LDS (Mormon).

I've gained an entirely new respect for these folks because music is so interwoven
with their culture. I've worked with several of the high school and college kids
here and they always surprise me in their musicallity. Most seem to understand tempo
and pitch, so much so that they can then deliver good, engaging performances. It's
been a breath of fresh air in that regard.

Music here is almost as woven into the daily cultural fabric as it is in Europe.
Makes a difference all the way around, in my estimation -- what you listen to and
how you listen to it.


Pity it has to be linked to a rather whacky take on a fairy-story rather
than something rational.

However the musicality of pretty much all the Pacifica people I deal
with is fantastic, and though usually with religious overtones as well
as general culture, still better than nothing.

I do find it galling when I deliver gear to my local mormons, who are
mostly Pacifica people, and see pictures of a european hippy on the walls.

geoff
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Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to?
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In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw
anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction
worker and an artist, so anything's possible.

What was the local fashion of the decade?


Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk to him.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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geoff wrote: "On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote:
Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to?



Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis.

None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have
Jesus.

geoff "

Oh. Seriously I thought you meant Pacifica Radio - of which I am a loyal listener. lol!
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Guys: 86 the religion & faith derail right now. Refer to Subject header for topic of this thread and let's keep it that way.

I'll start a separate "What God looked like" thread for those of you to go argue about it there.

THANK YOU
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On 02/09/2014 15:08, Jeff Henig wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw
anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction
worker and an artist, so anything's possible.

What was the local fashion of the decade?


Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk to him.



I think anyone can speak to Him, but I doubt that many people are getting a
direct audible answer.

I'm sure the right microphones, cables and preamps will be able to help.
Plus a compressor with a lot of make up gain.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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On 9/2/2014 10:08 AM, Jeff Henig wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw
anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction
worker and an artist, so anything's possible.

What was the local fashion of the decade?


Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk to him.



I think anyone can speak to Him, but I doubt that many people are getting a
direct audible answer.

Hmm, don't know about "Him" but I have, at times, gotten direct
audible answers when talking to myself. :-) :-)

==
Later...
Ron Capik
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On 3/09/2014 5:43 a.m., Ron C wrote:
On 9/2/2014 10:08 AM, Jeff Henig wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw
anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction
worker and an artist, so anything's possible.

What was the local fashion of the decade?

Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk
to him.



I think anyone can speak to Him, but I doubt that many people are
getting a
direct audible answer.

Hmm, don't know about "Him" but I have, at times, gotten direct
audible answers when talking to myself. :-) :-)


Don't know about "him" either, but I know about "Hum".

In the various interest groups regarding The Hum, some people claim it
is god. But others also claim it is government mind-control beams,
chem-trails, parallel universes etc.

FWIW it is a LF form of tinnitus, and can have you chasing power
transformers, ground-loops, phantom diesel generators, a/c, etc, if you
are unfortunate enough to suffer.

geoff
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On 3/09/2014 2:08 a.m., Jeff Henig wrote:


Were I a betting man, I'd wager on John The Baptizer as the one with the
beard and long hair,


He did in the movie !

geoff

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On 3/09/2014 2:13 a.m., Jeff Henig wrote:
wrote:
geoff wrote: "On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote:
Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to?



Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis.

None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have
Jesus.

geoff "

Oh. Seriously I thought you meant Pacifica Radio - of which I am a loyal listener. lol!


My initial thought was a town close to the San Francisco Bay Area.


Generalised description of people of the Pacific Ocean islands.


geoff
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kretin krissie trollerkoaster @gmail.com wrote in message
...
Guys: 86 the religion & faith derail right now. Refer to Subject
header for topic of this thread and let's keep it that way.


LOL! You think you're in charge of Usenet?

I'll start a separate "What God looked like" thread for those of you
to go argue about it there.


Aren't you special! (In the short-bus sense.)


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Jeff Henig wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
On 02/09/2014 13:26, Jeff Henig wrote:
geoff wrote:
On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote:
Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to?



Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis.

None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus.

geoff

Jesus was a Jew and not a hippie (though certainly counter cultural), but I
guess a lot of people aren't all that interested in accuracy.

I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything
about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an
artist, so anything's possible.

What was the local fashion of the decade?



The apostle Paul was a former Pharisee who wrote that men should keep their
hair short because long hair was feminine fashion at that time--though
there were certain exceptions to the standard fashions of the time, such as
for Nazerite vows.

I wouldn't absolutely rule out Jesus having had long hair--but Scripture
has little to say about the matter.

Were I a betting man, I'd wager on John The Baptizer as the one with the
beard and long hair, being the wild man that he was.

Now that I think of it though, it's all relative anyway: we don't really
have a standard of what would be considered long hair, because even Paul
didn't mention anything about specific measurements.



We have lots of marble busts from the period, and they all have short
hair.

--
Les Cargill

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On 04/09/2014 06:19, Don Pearce wrote:

Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of
evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult.
Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem.


Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary
evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the
area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an
itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was
preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long
as it didn't cause them any problems.

The rest is either a confabulation or true, depending on your oown
belief system.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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On 4/09/2014 8:02 p.m., John Williamson wrote:
On 04/09/2014 06:19, Don Pearce wrote:

Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of
evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult.
Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem.


Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary
evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the
area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an
itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was
preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long
as it didn't cause them any problems.



Yeah - they didn't like commies though, so they killed him off.


geoff
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On 04/09/2014 09:57, geoff wrote:
On 4/09/2014 8:02 p.m., John Williamson wrote:
On 04/09/2014 06:19, Don Pearce wrote:

Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of
evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult.
Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem.


Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary
evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the
area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an
itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was
preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long
as it didn't cause them any problems.



Yeah - they didn't like commies though, so they killed him off.

At the request of the locals, according to at least one source.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good
documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were
in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of
Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher.


It's not a question of believing the "good documentary evidence". It's
more a question of whether any such evidence exists. If you know of
such documentation, you've got new information that would be important
historical evidence. But you don't actually know of it; it doesn't
exist. Josephus is about the closest you'll find, and that's not much
info, with dubious veracity, likely sourced from cult believers
anyway.



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geoff wrote:
On 4/09/2014 8:02 p.m., John Williamson wrote:

Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary
evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the
area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an
itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was
preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long
as it didn't cause them any problems.


Yeah - they didn't like commies though, so they killed him off.


I hate to add to the religious debate here, and my personal beliefs are
really not relevant to this discussion anyway.

However, I can say that Kris Kristofferson played this and it is just a
great, great song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK8TSJuBMgM

Sadly the studio version doesn't do justice to his live performances, but
that IS relevant here.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default What you buy to listen to music on....

On Thu, 04 Sep 2014 09:02:22 +0100, John Williamson
wrote:

On 04/09/2014 06:19, Don Pearce wrote:

Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of
evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult.
Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem.


Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary
evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the
area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an
itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was
preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long
as it didn't cause them any problems.

The rest is either a confabulation or true, depending on your oown
belief system.


No, there is no such writing by anyone contemporary with events. I
don't know who told you this, but they are simply wrong.

d
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On Thu, 4 Sep 2014 07:29:01 -0400, "None" wrote:

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good
documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were
in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of
Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher.


It's not a question of believing the "good documentary evidence". It's
more a question of whether any such evidence exists. If you know of
such documentation, you've got new information that would be important
historical evidence. But you don't actually know of it; it doesn't
exist. Josephus is about the closest you'll find, and that's not much
info, with dubious veracity, likely sourced from cult believers
anyway.


Most of the claimed Josephus writings were revealed to be fake some
time around the 17th century. The one remaining document contains
nothing of relevance but the name Jeshua.

Of course Josephus was no more contemporary than any other source.
There is literally nothing.l It is a story entirely without
foundation.

d
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