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#41
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What you buy to listen to music on....
In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote: Most classical CDs have (on an absolute basis) poor sound, because they were recorded and mastered with the same "attitudes" that controlled the LPs, cassettes, etc. More crap. -- *Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#42
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What you buy to listen to music on....
In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote: I'll say it again... Once multi-track recording became commonplace, any lingering belief that recordings should sound like a live performance went out the window. The introduction of CD, which removed the limitations of LP and CC, should have "reset" the industry to Living Stereo and Living Presence, but it didn't -- presumably because recording engineers "knew" that multi-tracking made a "better" recording. It's interesting to listen to the Solti Ring in the order the operas were recorded -- R, S, G, W -- because "Reingold" has the best sound. As Decca's recording equipment got more complex, the sound became subtly less-natural. The superb sound of the best SACD and BD recordings is partly due to the improvement in recording equipment over the past 20 years, but is mostly the deliberate result of engineers making recordings they know will be most-often played on good equipment -- that do not need to be compromised for listening on compromised equipment. The reasons that made multi-tracking 'the way to go' many years ago haven't changed today. Nor have the disadvantages. It's a total red herring. -- *Eschew obfuscation * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#43
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What you buy to listen to music on....
William Sommerwerck wrote:
I'll throw this at all of you... For those of you who //don't// listen to or record classical and jazz -- what, exactly, is it that you use as your standard for a "good" recording? That's not a rhetorical question. That's a good question. I'd say I listen for arrangement, with the recording supporting that. My musical perception was trained around radio, so whatever would work on radio works for me. I'll say it again... Once multi-track recording became commonplace, any lingering belief that recordings should sound like a live performance went out the window. It was a new toy. People tried to do things that could not easily be done in live performance. I was not around, but I imagine that Les Paul & Mary Ford's "How High The Moon" caused quite a stir. And I think it sounds marvelous. Records by Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra used relatively close-micing "crooner" vocals. This has been going on for a while. The introduction of CD, which removed the limitations of LP and CC, should have "reset" the industry to Living Stereo and Living Presence, but it didn't -- presumably because recording engineers "knew" that multi-tracking made a "better" recording. Should have? Not after people because accustomed to nonlive methods of arrangement and production. I'd say that CD eventually brought back live performance as a revenue generator*. And that there are certainly DVDs of live performance where the sound is of high caliber. *CD plus home CD burners with the Innernets thrown in... It's interesting to listen to the Solti Ring in the order the operas were recorded -- R, S, G, W -- because "Reingold" has the best sound. As Decca's recording equipment got more complex, the sound became subtly less-natural. The superb sound of the best SACD and BD recordings is partly due to the improvement in recording equipment over the past 20 years, but is mostly the deliberate result of engineers making recordings they know will be most-often played on good equipment -- that do not need to be compromised for listening on compromised equipment. I have no way of evaluating the truth or falsity of that. The title of this thread is "What you buy to listen to music on... [affects the way the recording is made]". This has /always/ been true. The recording industry (with a few exceptions -- mostly smaller labels) has /always/ pandered to the lowest common denominator of playback equipment. Right. And I have no problem with that myself. -- Les Cargill |
#44
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What you buy to listen to music on....
My whole premise is that if people start buying "real" equipment again - stereo/surround components with 50-150 watts/channel and full-sized speakers, demand for squashed music could be offset by demand for higher fidelity material.
It won't happen overnight, but it will. |
#45
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What you buy to listen to music on....
"Les Cargill" wrote in message ...
The superb sound of the best SACD and BD recordings is partly due to the improvement in recording equipment over the past 20 years, but is mostly the deliberate result of engineers making recordings they know will be most-often played on good equipment -- that do not need to be compromised for listening on compromised equipment. I have no way of evaluating the truth or falsity of that. And I admit I'm speculating. I just find it "interesting" that, since the introduction of SACD and BD Audio, the number of really fine-sounding recordings has significantly increased. The title of this thread is "What you buy to listen to music on... [affects the way the recording is made]". This has /always/ been true. The recording industry (with a few exceptions -- mostly smaller labels) has /always/ pandered to the lowest common denominator of playback equipment. Right. And I have no problem with that myself. And I acknowledge that it has often been a necessity. I'm bothered, though, when necessities aren't abandoned because they are no longer needed. |
#46
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What you buy to listen to music on....
wrote in message ...
My whole premise is that if people start buying "real" equipment again - stereo/surround components with 50-150 watts/channel and full-sized speakers, demand for squashed music could be offset by demand for higher fidelity material. It won't happen overnight, but it will. Hard to say. Like many audiophiles, my system does double duty -- it's primarily a six-channel audiophile surround system for music that handles video as well. (There's an inexpensive KLH Audio subwoofer for N.1 recordings.) Most people are set up the other way. Listening to music is secondary. Most listeners refuse to spend more than a few hundred dollars for speakers, and miss out on the major improvements they'd get from $2K to $4K worth of speakers. When someone says to me "Why should I spend $15K on an audio system, I say "How much did you spend on your car?" |
#47
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What you buy to listen to music on....
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#48
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What you buy to listen to music on....
wrote:
My whole premise is that if people start buying "real" equipment again - stereo/surround components with 50-150 watts/channel and full-sized speakers, demand for squashed music could be offset by demand for higher fidelity material. Not really, because you're missing whay people aren't buying full-sized systems anymore. The way most people listen to music has changed, and that is a consequence of what most people consider music as being for. And that is a change that has been taking place since the phonograph came out. I don't think it's a good one, but it is what it is, and Erik Satie predicted it with his description of "music as furniture" a century ago. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#49
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What you buy to listen to music on....
William Sommerwerck wrote:
This lasted until multi-track recording arrived, at which point the sound of the orchestra was dissected and reassembled to produce an "idealized" sound that lacked a strong relationship to to the original. This happened long before multitrack recording. The notion of spotmiking orchestras to allow additional tonal control and to create a closer and larger than life sound dates back to Toscanini. Of course, the phonograph record itself had limited dynamic range, and the mastering engineer would often pull up the quieter passages. (Bud Fried told me on several occasions that the original masterings of the Solti "Ring" had a dynamic range of barely 20dB.) If you've never heard a dbx II encoded LP, you're in for a surprise. Not just the mastering engineer, often the recording engineer would be doing some very aggressive gainriding. But more than that, it was common especially in the early days of the LP for orchestras to perform differently, with restricted dynamic range, just for the recording. The Compact Disk ought to have brought these musical "perversions" to an end, but it didn't. The CD was a mass-market replacement for the LP and Compact Cassette, so these atrocities continued. It wasn't until the SACD and BD-Audio disk arrived that recording engineers started taking absolute fidelity seriously * -- because they knew these recordings would be played on very good equipment. What happened was that in the 1950s we start getting some attention to deliberately realistic recordings, with the work of Bert Whyte and Bob Fine and those crew. But, these recordings were always a very limited item, made for a very limited market. That continued throughout the CD era; even as DG was making horribly multimiked recordings, there were cleaner and more realistic recordings from labels like Telarc and Pope Music and M-A and Sheffield Labs....and some of those labels changed as they grew and some didn't. "A worrying trend: there is no place for neutrality and fidelity in today's music business. Discuss." I think there is a place for neutrality and fidelity, but I don't think it is a huge place and I don't think it has ever been. I think it will remain the domain of small labels and while I think that's a shame (since it pays my salary, I'd like to see it become as popular as possible), I don't see it changing. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#50
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What you buy to listen to music on....
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#51
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 2/09/2014 7:42 a.m., Frank Stearns wrote:
Underlying all of this is musical aesthetics (or a lack thereof). I've really seen this contrasted in the new area where I've moved -- it's 70%+ LDS (Mormon). I've gained an entirely new respect for these folks because music is so interwoven with their culture. I've worked with several of the high school and college kids here and they always surprise me in their musicallity. Most seem to understand tempo and pitch, so much so that they can then deliver good, engaging performances. It's been a breath of fresh air in that regard. Music here is almost as woven into the daily cultural fabric as it is in Europe. Makes a difference all the way around, in my estimation -- what you listen to and how you listen to it. Pity it has to be linked to a rather whacky take on a fairy-story rather than something rational. However the musicality of pretty much all the Pacifica people I deal with is fantastic, and though usually with religious overtones as well as general culture, still better than nothing. I do find it galling when I deliver gear to my local mormons, who are mostly Pacifica people, and see pictures of a european hippy on the walls. geoff |
#52
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What you buy to listen to music on....
Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to?
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#53
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What you buy to listen to music on....
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#54
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 02/09/2014 13:26, Jeff Henig wrote:
geoff wrote: On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote: Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. geoff Jesus was a Jew and not a hippie (though certainly counter cultural), but I guess a lot of people aren't all that interested in accuracy. I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. What was the local fashion of the decade? -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#55
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What you buy to listen to music on....
In article ,
John Williamson wrote: I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. What was the local fashion of the decade? Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk to him. -- *Work is for people who don't know how to fish. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#56
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What you buy to listen to music on....
geoff wrote: "On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote:
Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. geoff " Oh. Seriously I thought you meant Pacifica Radio - of which I am a loyal listener. lol! |
#57
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What you buy to listen to music on....
Guys: 86 the religion & faith derail right now. Refer to Subject header for topic of this thread and let's keep it that way.
I'll start a separate "What God looked like" thread for those of you to go argue about it there. THANK YOU |
#58
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What you buy to listen to music on....
geoff wrote:
On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote: Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. Don't be putting down European hippies. Why, some of my best friends.. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#59
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 02/09/2014 15:08, Jeff Henig wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , John Williamson wrote: I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. What was the local fashion of the decade? Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk to him. I think anyone can speak to Him, but I doubt that many people are getting a direct audible answer. I'm sure the right microphones, cables and preamps will be able to help. Plus a compressor with a lot of make up gain. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#60
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 9/2/2014 10:08 AM, Jeff Henig wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , John Williamson wrote: I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. What was the local fashion of the decade? Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk to him. I think anyone can speak to Him, but I doubt that many people are getting a direct audible answer. Hmm, don't know about "Him" but I have, at times, gotten direct audible answers when talking to myself. :-) :-) == Later... Ron Capik -- |
#61
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What you buy to listen to music on....
"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
... Scott Dorsey wrote: geoff wrote: On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote: Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. Don't be putting down European hippies. Why, some of my best friends.. --scott You owe me a keyboard, Scott. Coffee is a great drink, but it doesn't play well with electronics. He's been known to do that. Sean |
#62
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 3/09/2014 5:43 a.m., Ron C wrote:
On 9/2/2014 10:08 AM, Jeff Henig wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , John Williamson wrote: I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. What was the local fashion of the decade? Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk to him. I think anyone can speak to Him, but I doubt that many people are getting a direct audible answer. Hmm, don't know about "Him" but I have, at times, gotten direct audible answers when talking to myself. :-) :-) Don't know about "him" either, but I know about "Hum". In the various interest groups regarding The Hum, some people claim it is god. But others also claim it is government mind-control beams, chem-trails, parallel universes etc. FWIW it is a LF form of tinnitus, and can have you chasing power transformers, ground-loops, phantom diesel generators, a/c, etc, if you are unfortunate enough to suffer. geoff |
#63
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 3/09/2014 2:08 a.m., Jeff Henig wrote:
Were I a betting man, I'd wager on John The Baptizer as the one with the beard and long hair, He did in the movie ! geoff |
#64
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 3/09/2014 2:13 a.m., Jeff Henig wrote:
wrote: geoff wrote: "On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote: Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. geoff " Oh. Seriously I thought you meant Pacifica Radio - of which I am a loyal listener. lol! My initial thought was a town close to the San Francisco Bay Area. Generalised description of people of the Pacific Ocean islands. geoff |
#65
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 3/09/2014 5:04 a.m., Jeff Henig wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: geoff wrote: On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote: Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. Don't be putting down European hippies. Why, some of my best friends.. --scott You owe me a keyboard, Scott. Coffee is a great drink, but it doesn't play well with electronics. Hot Chocolate is pretty bad too. And the drink ... geoff |
#66
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What you buy to listen to music on....
kretin krissie trollerkoaster @gmail.com wrote in message
... Guys: 86 the religion & faith derail right now. Refer to Subject header for topic of this thread and let's keep it that way. LOL! You think you're in charge of Usenet? I'll start a separate "What God looked like" thread for those of you to go argue about it there. Aren't you special! (In the short-bus sense.) |
#67
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What you buy to listen to music on....
Jeff Henig wrote:
John Williamson wrote: On 02/09/2014 13:26, Jeff Henig wrote: geoff wrote: On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote: Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. geoff Jesus was a Jew and not a hippie (though certainly counter cultural), but I guess a lot of people aren't all that interested in accuracy. I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. What was the local fashion of the decade? The apostle Paul was a former Pharisee who wrote that men should keep their hair short because long hair was feminine fashion at that time--though there were certain exceptions to the standard fashions of the time, such as for Nazerite vows. I wouldn't absolutely rule out Jesus having had long hair--but Scripture has little to say about the matter. Were I a betting man, I'd wager on John The Baptizer as the one with the beard and long hair, being the wild man that he was. Now that I think of it though, it's all relative anyway: we don't really have a standard of what would be considered long hair, because even Paul didn't mention anything about specific measurements. We have lots of marble busts from the period, and they all have short hair. -- Les Cargill |
#68
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 12:26:52 +0000 (UTC), Jeff Henig
wrote: geoff wrote: On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote: Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. geoff Jesus was a Jew and not a hippie (though certainly counter cultural), but I guess a lot of people aren't all that interested in accuracy. I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult. Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem. d |
#69
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 2/09/2014 11:35 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article
, John Williamson wrote: On 3/09/2014 12:06 AM, wrote: I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. What was the local fashion of the decade? Surely someone has a pic? After all plenty claim to be able to talk to him. Many think they can talk to GOD (not Jesus) but I don't know any who claim they have taken a photo of him. Guys: 86 the religion & faith derail right now. Refer to Subject header for topic of this thread and let's keep it that way. I'll start a separate "What God looked like" thread for those of you to go argue about it there. Most Christians who believe that crap don't think God and Jesus are the same person, they think Jesus was the son of God. Trevor. |
#70
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 04/09/2014 06:19, Don Pearce wrote:
Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult. Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem. Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long as it didn't cause them any problems. The rest is either a confabulation or true, depending on your oown belief system. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#71
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 4/09/2014 8:02 p.m., John Williamson wrote:
On 04/09/2014 06:19, Don Pearce wrote: Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult. Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem. Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long as it didn't cause them any problems. Yeah - they didn't like commies though, so they killed him off. geoff |
#72
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On 04/09/2014 09:57, geoff wrote:
On 4/09/2014 8:02 p.m., John Williamson wrote: On 04/09/2014 06:19, Don Pearce wrote: Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult. Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem. Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long as it didn't cause them any problems. Yeah - they didn't like commies though, so they killed him off. At the request of the locals, according to at least one source. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#73
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What you buy to listen to music on....
"John Williamson" wrote in message
... Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher. It's not a question of believing the "good documentary evidence". It's more a question of whether any such evidence exists. If you know of such documentation, you've got new information that would be important historical evidence. But you don't actually know of it; it doesn't exist. Josephus is about the closest you'll find, and that's not much info, with dubious veracity, likely sourced from cult believers anyway. |
#74
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What you buy to listen to music on....
geoff wrote:
On 4/09/2014 8:02 p.m., John Williamson wrote: Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long as it didn't cause them any problems. Yeah - they didn't like commies though, so they killed him off. I hate to add to the religious debate here, and my personal beliefs are really not relevant to this discussion anyway. However, I can say that Kris Kristofferson played this and it is just a great, great song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK8TSJuBMgM Sadly the studio version doesn't do justice to his live performances, but that IS relevant here. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#75
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What you buy to listen to music on....
Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 12:26:52 +0000 (UTC), Jeff Henig wrote: geoff wrote: On 2/09/2014 11:01 p.m., wrote: Geoff: just curious. What 'Pacifica' people do you refer to? Mostly Samoans, but also Cook Islanders, Fijians, Tongans, and Kiribatis. None of which look vaguely like European hippies, as neither would have Jesus. geoff Jesus was a Jew and not a hippie (though certainly counter cultural), but I guess a lot of people aren't all that interested in accuracy. I've read the Gospels more times than I can count, and I never saw anything about long hair or a beard. Then again, He was a construction worker and an artist, so anything's possible. Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult. Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem. d Clearly, your grasp of fantasy is questionable. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#76
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On Thu, 04 Sep 2014 09:02:22 +0100, John Williamson
wrote: On 04/09/2014 06:19, Don Pearce wrote: Well, of course if we're talking accuracy, there isn't a shred of evidence that he is anything but a made-up character in a cult. Made-up characters can dress any way you like, no problem. Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher. Being polytheistic, they didn't care what he was preaching, as they were pretty tolerant of any form of religion as long as it didn't cause them any problems. The rest is either a confabulation or true, depending on your oown belief system. No, there is no such writing by anyone contemporary with events. I don't know who told you this, but they are simply wrong. d |
#77
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What you buy to listen to music on....
On Thu, 4 Sep 2014 07:29:01 -0400, "None" wrote:
"John Williamson" wrote in message ... Depending on whether you want to believe it, there is good documentary evidence written down by the Roman authorities who were in charge of the area at the time of a person called Jesus of Nazareth who was an itinerant preacher. It's not a question of believing the "good documentary evidence". It's more a question of whether any such evidence exists. If you know of such documentation, you've got new information that would be important historical evidence. But you don't actually know of it; it doesn't exist. Josephus is about the closest you'll find, and that's not much info, with dubious veracity, likely sourced from cult believers anyway. Most of the claimed Josephus writings were revealed to be fake some time around the 17th century. The one remaining document contains nothing of relevance but the name Jeshua. Of course Josephus was no more contemporary than any other source. There is literally nothing.l It is a story entirely without foundation. d |
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