I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If
so, how?

Thanks

SM

GoPack wrote:

I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If
so, how?

Neither are really suitable.

I suppose if you had 4 video cables going somewhere useful you could use the
screens as + and - for 2 channels.

Graham

"GoPack" wrote in message
...
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network cables.
Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If so, how?

I would think that both can. The Cat5 is better. It has 8 wires in it.
Choose two for left +, two for left -, two for right +, and two for right -,
so that for each of the 4 wires you actually need, you are using 2 wires in
parallel. This is not ideal speaker wire for extremely high-power speakers,
but it may well meet your needs.

The video coax can also be used as speaker cable (one speaker).

GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If
so, how?

Thanks

SM

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do
to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar
with it.

see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5.

for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors ..
then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color
pair.

that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left -
and so on.

this type of solid wire wont take many flexes before it breaks. i suppose if
you connect regular speaker wire to it at the box on the wall sound should
come out OK when you hook up the speakers and amps.

TimPerry wrote:

GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If
so, how?

Thanks

SM

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do
to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar
with it.

see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5.

for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors ..
then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color
pair.

that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left -
and so on.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker
cable.

Graham

Pooh Bear wrote:
TimPerry wrote:

GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables?
If so, how?

Thanks

SM

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i
guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer
guys familiar with it.

see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through
cat 5.

for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8
conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and
repeat for each color pair.

that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for
left - and so on.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as
speaker cable.

Graham

even a single strand of 24GA isnt that much different in size then the wire
that comes with most small home stereo systems.

TimPerry wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
TimPerry wrote:

GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables?
If so, how?

Thanks

SM

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i
guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and computer
guys familiar with it.

see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through
cat 5.

for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8
conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and
repeat for each color pair.

that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for
left - and so on.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as
speaker cable.

Graham

even a single strand of 24GA isnt that much different in size then the wire
that comes with most small home stereo systems.

Not true actually but in any event hardly the point.

Graham

GoPack wrote:

I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If
so, how?

Sure it's easy: go buy some 12 gauge speaker cable of the appropriate
length, use electrical tape to attach it to the installed video cable,
then pull the coax until the 12 gauge speaker appears. You've now
converted it to suitable speaker cable.

Seriously, neither wire appropriate for speaker level signals. It might
be passible for very low level background level, but not for any kind of
foreground application. However, the cat 5 cable is usable for
distributing line level audio signals, so you could buy self powered
speakers and use the cat5 to get the signal to them if you don't want to
run new wires through the walls.

//Walt

In article , "TimPerry" wrote:
GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If
so, how?

Thanks

SM

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess do
to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar
with it.

see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through cat 5.

for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8 conductors ..
then twist blue/white and white/blue together and repeat for each color
pair.

that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for left -
and so on.

this type of solid wire wont take many flexes before it breaks. i suppose if
you connect regular speaker wire to it at the box on the wall sound should
come out OK when you hook up the speakers and amps.

That gives 21 gauge wire. It is much better when you just connect
one speaker to one cable, giving 18 gauge, however I have reservations
about the CAT3 or 5 or whatever, connectors, having low enough resistance.
Twisting the raw cable eliminates this, but solid wire breaks easily.

greg

In , on 06/05/06
at 12:38 AM, GoPack said:



I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5 network
cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker cables? If
so, how?

Neither of these wires make particularly effective speaker wires, but
you could "make do" (at reduced performance levels) with either.

By switching from a traditional central amplifier based technology to a
newer, computer networked approach, you can use the cat-5 wire to
connect individual room systems back to a central music server. With
this approach each room has its own amplifier and speaker wire is
almost eliminated.

One such approach can be found at sonos.com. Another fairly well
developed system is available from Yamaha. In my opinion this is the
wave of the future for whole house audio. You can get on the wagon now
or later.

Very different, but still appropriate for cat-5 is the "A-bus" system.
(Cat-5 is on the edge for A-bus -- use a home run of cat-5 for each
room.)

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

In , on 06/05/06
at 02:03 PM, (GregS) said:

[ ... ]

but solid wire breaks easily

It is no more likely to break than a single strand of wire in a pack.
True, larger gauge wire has a larger bending radius if one wants to
avoid too much stress, but stranded wire made up of these same larger
strands will have similar issues. Stranded wire does have a slight
added advantage that flexing might allow the strands to twist and roll
over each other rather than bend in a tight radius.

The trick is -- don't knick the wire (solid or otherwise) as you strip
the insulation.

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess
do
to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar
with it.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker
cable.

Well, maybe.

The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up.
The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's
using them doubled up. But each speaker needs 2 such pairs (+ and -), so
the total resistance is indeed 25 ohms per 1000 feet.

So with reasonable distances from room to room, the resistance is generally
going to be a few ohms. That's no problem at all for intercoms or
background music systems, but indeed, if you go more than 10 or 20 feet, it
may well have a noticeable effect on a hi-fi system.

mc wrote:

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess
do
to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar
with it.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker
cable.

Well, maybe.

The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up.
The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's
using them doubled up. But each speaker needs 2 such pairs (+ and -), so
the total resistance is indeed 25 ohms per 1000 feet.

So with reasonable distances from room to room, the resistance is generally
going to be a few ohms. That's no problem at all for intercoms or
background music systems, but indeed, if you go more than 10 or 20 feet, it
may well have a noticeable effect on a hi-fi system.

A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any more than say
100 milliohms.

Graham

Pooh Bear spake thus:

mc wrote:

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess
do
to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar
with it.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker
cable.

Well, maybe.

The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up.
The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's
using them doubled up. But each speaker needs 2 such pairs (+ and -), so
the total resistance is indeed 25 ohms per 1000 feet.

So with reasonable distances from room to room, the resistance is generally
going to be a few ohms. That's no problem at all for intercoms or
background music systems, but indeed, if you go more than 10 or 20 feet, it
may well have a noticeable effect on a hi-fi system.

A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any more than say
100 milliohms.

Maybe a few ohms are "shocking" to you, but what say we drop the Usenet
alarmism for now and answer this question: what would be the effect of
such resistance? What bad things would happen?

My guess: you'd have to turn up the volume a notch or two. BFD.


--
Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order
of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary
and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa.
This is an inviolable rule.

- Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site
(http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any
more than say
100 milliohms.

Maybe a few ohms are "shocking" to you, but what say we drop the Usenet
alarmism for now and answer this question: what would be the effect of
such resistance? What bad things would happen?

My guess: you'd have to turn up the volume a notch or two. BFD.

I believe it depends to some extent on the speaker in question.

For a speaker with a near-constant impedance, what you suggest is
probably true. You'd need to turn up the volume a bit to compensate
for the loss of signal in the wire's resistance, but that'd be about it.

For a speaker with a highly variable impedance-vs.-frequency curve,
the effects could be more significant. The wire's impedance could
reduce the output significantly at those frequencies where the
speaker's impedance is near its minimum, while having very little
effect on the output at frequencies where the impedance is at a
maximum. This could, in some cases, result in an audible change in
the speaker's frequency response.

Consider the effect of adding, say, 2 ohms of wire resistance, in loop
with a speaker whose impedance drops as low as 4 ohms at some
frequencies and rises as high as 20 ohms at others.

Whether this change in frequency response will be significant,
audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be
a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not...
but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very
well make the difference between an acceptable install and an
unacceptable one.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Dave Platt spake thus:

Whether this change in frequency response will be significant,
audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be
a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not...
but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very
well make the difference between an acceptable install and an
unacceptable one.

Well, I didn't address that point, because it's moot anyhow: if this
were an anal audio-fool's installation, they'd have 1-gauge copper bus
connectors throughout the house, running inside industrial
noble-gas-filled conduit, for their speaker wiring. (Or maybe
superconducters.)

For anyone else, it makes practically NO difference.


--
Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order
of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary
and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa.
This is an inviolable rule.

- Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site
(http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Pooh Bear spake thus:

mc wrote:

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i guess
do
to low price and the availability of telephone and computer guys familiar
with it.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as speaker
cable.

Well, maybe.

The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them doubled up.
The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather half that, since he's
using them doubled up. But each speaker needs 2 such pairs (+ and -), so
the total resistance is indeed 25 ohms per 1000 feet.

So with reasonable distances from room to room, the resistance is generally
going to be a few ohms. That's no problem at all for intercoms or
background music systems, but indeed, if you go more than 10 or 20 feet, it
may well have a noticeable effect on a hi-fi system.

A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any more than say
100 milliohms.

Maybe a few ohms are "shocking" to you, but what say we drop the Usenet
alarmism for now and answer this question: what would be the effect of
such resistance? What bad things would happen?

My guess: you'd have to turn up the volume a notch or two. BFD.

2 things happen you haven't considered.

1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate sound.
2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance ( not constant with frequency
) form a frequency dependent potential divider resulting in colouration.

Graham

Dave Platt wrote:

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

A few ohms is shocking for hi-fi speaker leads. You don't want any
more than say
100 milliohms.

Maybe a few ohms are "shocking" to you, but what say we drop the Usenet
alarmism for now and answer this question: what would be the effect of
such resistance? What bad things would happen?

My guess: you'd have to turn up the volume a notch or two. BFD.

I believe it depends to some extent on the speaker in question.

For a speaker with a near-constant impedance, what you suggest is
probably true. You'd need to turn up the volume a bit to compensate
for the loss of signal in the wire's resistance, but that'd be about it.

For a speaker with a highly variable impedance-vs.-frequency curve,
the effects could be more significant. The wire's impedance could
reduce the output significantly at those frequencies where the
speaker's impedance is near its minimum, while having very little
effect on the output at frequencies where the impedance is at a
maximum. This could, in some cases, result in an audible change in
the speaker's frequency response.

Consider the effect of adding, say, 2 ohms of wire resistance, in loop
with a speaker whose impedance drops as low as 4 ohms at some
frequencies and rises as high as 20 ohms at others.

Whether this change in frequency response will be significant,
audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be
a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not...
but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very
well make the difference between an acceptable install and an
unacceptable one.

You are quite correct.

Whatever the merits of Cat5 it sure isn't capable of being a hi-fi speaker
cable.

Graham

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Dave Platt spake thus:

Whether this change in frequency response will be significant,
audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be
a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not...
but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very
well make the difference between an acceptable install and an
unacceptable one.

Well, I didn't address that point, because it's moot anyhow: if this
were an anal audio-fool's installation, they'd have 1-gauge copper bus
connectors throughout the house, running inside industrial
noble-gas-filled conduit, for their speaker wiring. (Or maybe
superconducters.)

For anyone else, it makes practically NO difference.

You really do talk out of your ass you know.

Graham

Pooh Bear spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Dave Platt spake thus:

Whether this change in frequency response will be significant,
audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be
a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not...
but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very
well make the difference between an acceptable install and an
unacceptable one.

Well, I didn't address that point, because it's moot anyhow: if this
were an anal audio-fool's installation, they'd have 1-gauge copper bus
connectors throughout the house, running inside industrial
noble-gas-filled conduit, for their speaker wiring. (Or maybe
superconducters.)

For anyone else, it makes practically NO difference.

You really do talk out of your ass you know.

Well, you know, "Pooh Bear", it really depends on what one's using the
wiring for, correct? So why don't we ask the O.P., OK.

So, O.P., tell us: what quality of speakers and other equipment were you
planning on hooking up in your house? How big an issue is sound quality
to you? And how about this: have you considering experimenting, trying
the wiring first to see how it works? As long as you keep the volume to
a reasonable level, you needn't worry about burning up the wiring.

Let's let him (or her) tell us whether it might be adequate.


--
Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order
of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary
and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa.
This is an inviolable rule.

- Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site
(http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Pooh Bear wrote:
TimPerry wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
TimPerry wrote:

GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5
network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker
cables? If so, how?

Thanks

SM

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i
guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and
computer guys familiar with it.

see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through
cat 5.

for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8
conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and
repeat for each color pair.

that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for
left - and so on.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as
speaker cable.

Graham

even a single strand of 24GA isnt that much different in size then
the wire that comes with most small home stereo systems.

Not true actually but in any event hardly the point.

Graham

there is a wonderful system known as 70 volt (somtimes 100 volt or an older
type 25 volt audio.

this involve step up and step down transformers at each end of the wire. the
advantage is you can parallel all the wires in the house together and put
speakers in every room of the house all on the same audio amplifier. AND it
eliminates most or all the issues that Graham is concerned about.

'course if wont be true hifi to a purest... the the PO only said
"speakers"....

On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 22:42:16 +0200, Peter Larsen
wrote:

mc wrote:

The conductors are .020 inch in diameter and he's using them
doubled up. The resistance is 25 ohms per 1000 feet, or rather
half that, since he's using them doubled up.

It goes to the loudspeaker and back.

Had you read on, you'd have noticed that he said you need two wires,
so you're back to 25 ohms.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:37:23 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

Dave Platt spake thus:

Whether this change in frequency response will be significant,
audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be
a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not...
but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very
well make the difference between an acceptable install and an
unacceptable one.

Well, I didn't address that point, because it's moot anyhow: if this
were an anal audio-fool's installation, they'd have 1-gauge copper bus
connectors throughout the house, running inside industrial
noble-gas-filled conduit, for their speaker wiring. (Or maybe
superconducters.)

Typical childish hyperbole - you have to run 400 feet of 1 gauge to
get to 100 milliohms loop resistance.

For anyone else, it makes practically NO difference.

Bull****. Variations of 3 to 20 ohms are quite common in modern
speakers, which will give a highly audible 5dB variation in level with
a 3 ohm cable. As someone else already noted, you don't want much more
than 100 milliohms in the loop. That's about ten or fifteen feet of
the kind of cheap speaker wire they give away when you buy speakers.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Sure it's easy: go buy some 12 gauge speaker cable of the appropriate
length, use electrical tape to attach it to the installed video cable,
then pull the coax until the 12 gauge speaker appears. You've now
converted it to suitable speaker cable.

Seriously, neither wire appropriate for speaker level signals. It might
be passible for very low level background level, but not for any kind of
foreground application. However, the cat 5 cable is usable for
distributing line level audio signals, so you could buy self powered
speakers and use the cat5 to get the signal to them if you don't want to
run new wires through the walls.

So you think a long length of unshielded wire is OK for line level signals?
Probably close to power cables as well!
I'd go with pulling some new wire or use what's there as speaker cable
instead.
Maybe you could use the cat5 or coax to distribute digital signals though,
and use D-A converters at the other end, if cost is not an issue.

MrT.

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Consider the effect of adding, say, 2 ohms of wire resistance, in loop
with a speaker whose impedance drops as low as 4 ohms at some
frequencies and rises as high as 20 ohms at others.

Only a couple of dB at worst, unlikely to hear it without a direct
comparison.
However the speaker Q can also be affected which *may* be more audible.

Whether this change in frequency response will be significant,
audible, or objectionable in a particular installation is likely to be
a subjective issue. For medium-fi remote speakers, probably not...
but for critical listing with high-fidelity speakers it might very
well make the difference between an acceptable install and an
unacceptable one.

And we still don't know why he doesn't just try it and decide that for
himself!

MrT.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
Bull****. Variations of 3 to 20 ohms are quite common in modern
speakers, which will give a highly audible 5dB variation in level with
a 3 ohm cable. As someone else already noted, you don't want much more
than 100 milliohms in the loop. That's about ten or fifteen feet of
the kind of cheap speaker wire they give away when you buy speakers.

That's going from one extreme to the other! To say that 3 ohms (quite high
for just about any house run) *may* give a couple of dB variation and thus
be audible, is one thing, but to claim you HAVE to go as low as 100 milliohm
is stretching your credibility.
Zero ohms is lovely and all that, but you're not likely to pick much less
than one ohm without an A/B direct comparison, in the *majority* of cases.
And less than one ohm is not hard to achieve. Also I doubt he has perfect
speakers to start with, extra resistance will even improve some of them!

MrT.

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
2 things happen you haven't considered.

1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate
sound.

No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. You mean slightly
reduced.

2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance ( not constant
with frequency
) form a frequency dependent potential divider resulting in colouration.

Yep can happen if the resistance is too high, more than likely in this case.
Of course since the speaker is unlikely to be perfect to begin with, it's
hard to say whether it will be worse anyway. I wonder whether he is really
going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that cat 5 :-)

MrT.

TimPerry wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
TimPerry wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:
TimPerry wrote:

GoPack wrote:
I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and Cat5
network cables. Can either of these be adapted to use as speaker
cables? If so, how?

Thanks

SM

cat 5 is becoming more popular for use in fixed audio installs, i
guess do to low price and the availability of telephone and
computer guys familiar with it.

see http://www.studiohub.com/ for running audio and stuff through
cat 5.

for small bookshelf type speakers you could strip back all 8
conductors .. then twist blue/white and white/blue together and
repeat for each color pair.

that gives you 4 conductors. select a color for left + another for
left - and so on.

The wire's cross-sectional area is far too small to be any good as
speaker cable.

Graham

even a single strand of 24GA isnt that much different in size then
the wire that comes with most small home stereo systems.

Not true actually but in any event hardly the point.

Graham

there is a wonderful system known as 70 volt (somtimes 100 volt or an older
type 25 volt audio.

this involve step up and step down transformers at each end of the wire. the
advantage is you can parallel all the wires in the house together and put
speakers in every room of the house all on the same audio amplifier. AND it
eliminates most or all the issues that Graham is concerned about.

'course if wont be true hifi to a purest... the the PO only said
"speakers"....

70 or 100 volt lines are shockingly poor quality on account of the transformers.

Graham

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
Bull****. Variations of 3 to 20 ohms are quite common in modern
speakers, which will give a highly audible 5dB variation in level with
a 3 ohm cable. As someone else already noted, you don't want much more
than 100 milliohms in the loop. That's about ten or fifteen feet of
the kind of cheap speaker wire they give away when you buy speakers.

That's going from one extreme to the other! To say that 3 ohms (quite high
for just about any house run) *may* give a couple of dB variation and thus
be audible, is one thing, but to claim you HAVE to go as low as 100 milliohm
is stretching your credibility.

100 milliohms is simply good practice.

Graham

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
2 things happen you haven't considered.

1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate
sound.

No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates.

A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the amplifier's feedback
is taken from.

You mean slightly reduced.

More than slightly.

2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance ( not constant
with frequency
) form a frequency dependent potential divider resulting in colouration.

Yep can happen if the resistance is too high, more than likely in this case.
Of course since the speaker is unlikely to be perfect to begin with, it's
hard to say whether it will be worse anyway.

Speakers are *not* designed to be driven from severalohms !

I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of
that cat 5 :-)

You can never tell.

Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
100 milliohms is simply good practice.

Not what was claimed. And whose arse was that figure plucked from any way?

MrT.

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate
sound.

No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates.

A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the amplifier's
feedback
is taken from.

Neither the speaker wire or speaker resistance is included in the amplifier
feedback loop. They could be of course if you want to design it that way.

You mean slightly reduced.

More than slightly.

Define "radically" then, and provide some actual figures!

Speakers are *not* designed to be driven from severalohms !

Never said they were. We are just arguing over how much affect there will
be.

I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end
of
that cat 5 :-)

You can never tell.

Of course you can, *IF* the OP tells us.
I'm betting he will never own such a pair, let alone wire them with cat5.
Which way are you betting?

MrT.

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
100 milliohms is simply good practice.

Not what was claimed.

Pardon ? Can you elaborate ?

And whose arse was that figure plucked from any way?

I chose it thank you very much.

Graham

"Mr.T" wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a less accurate
sound.

No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates.

A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the amplifier's
feedback
is taken from.

Neither the speaker wire or speaker resistance is included in the amplifier
feedback loop. They could be of course if you want to design it that way.

I do hope you're not making a classic mistake here of thinking you can simply
lump in the cable resistance with the speaker impedance.


You mean slightly reduced.

More than slightly.

Define "radically" then, and provide some actual figures!

Even with only 100 milliohms of cable the damping factor might be easily halved.
Probably more.

Speakers are *not* designed to be driven from severalohms !

Never said they were. We are just arguing over how much affect there will
be.

Ok. Let's take 3 ohms of cable and a nominal 8 ohm speaker with impedance that
varies from 5 ohms to 40 ohms for example. That adds about +/- 2dB which isn't
insignificant.

I wonder whether he is really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of

that cat 5 :-)

You can never tell.

Of course you can, *IF* the OP tells us.
I'm betting he will never own such a pair, let alone wire them with cat5.
Which way are you betting?

I assumed you were just 'making a point'. A decent pair of $400 dollar speakers
will be affected just as much.

Graham

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates.

A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where the
amplifier's
feedback
is taken from.

Neither the speaker wire or speaker resistance is included in the
amplifier
feedback loop. They could be of course if you want to design it that
way.

I do hope you're not making a classic mistake here of thinking you can
simply
lump in the cable resistance with the speaker impedance.

Care to explain exactly what it is you are claiming, and a reference of any
sort.


You mean slightly reduced.

More than slightly.

Define "radically" then, and provide some actual figures!

Even with only 100 milliohms of cable the damping factor might be easily
halved.
Probably more.

Care to give us the formula you used to calculate that, or a reference of
any sort?


Ok. Let's take 3 ohms of cable and a nominal 8 ohm speaker with impedance
that
varies from 5 ohms to 40 ohms for example. That adds about +/- 2dB which
isn't
insignificant.

But is much less than most speaker frequency response variations. Even the
$100,000 ones.

I assumed you were just 'making a point'. A decent pair of $400 dollar
speakers
will be affected just as much.

Is there any such thing as a decent pair of $400 speakers? There are
certainly none with less than +/- 2dB frequency response variation!

MrT.

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
100 milliohms is simply good practice.

Not what was claimed.

Pardon ? Can you elaborate ?

Which word are you unsure about?

And whose arse was that figure plucked from any way?

I chose it thank you very much.

That explains it then.

MrT.

"GoPack" wrote in message


I have a house heavily wired with Video Coax cable and
Cat5 network cables. Can either of these be adapted to
use as speaker cables? If so, how?

There is such a thing as RG6 Coax with an 18 gauge solid copper center core.
The shield usually has a similar or lower resistance. 18 gauge speaker wire
is kinda crappy, but it beats nothing. Trouble is that a lot of RG 6 does
not have a solid copper center core. The copperweld (copper over steel)
cored RG6 is more like 24 gauge, which is very, very crappy speaker wire.

If you know what you are doing, one can tell the difference between
copperweld and solid copper by its stiffness. If you want to be sure, sand
the end of the wire on an angle, and you will be able to see the steel core
if it is there.

If you tie all 8 24 gauge wires in a piece of CAT5 cable together, you have
roughly the equivalent of a 13 gauge copper wire. Two of these make a pretty
fair piece of speaker cable.

If you tie the 24 gauge wires in CAT5 into two groups, you have roughly the
equivalent of a 18 gauge copper cable. Not real good, but again way ahead
of nothing. The cable will have higher capacitance than normal speaker
wire.

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Pooh Bear"
wrote in message ...
2 things happen you haven't considered.

1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a
less accurate sound.

No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. You
mean slightly reduced.

Agreed. This is one reason why the term "damping factor" is such a crock.
Typical speakers are highly inefficient which among other things means that
the mechanical parts of the speaker work pretty much the same regardless of
the source impedance for the voice coil. IOW, the Q of the mechanical
resonance of a woofer is pretty much the same no matter how you drive its
voice coil. The voice coil is only loosly coupled to the woofer cone by the
magnetic field. This is implicit in most means that are used to estimate the
mechanical and electrical Q of a driver for measurements of Thiel-Small
parameters. If you measure the impedance curve of a woofer with a constant
current source or a low impedance source, the results are very similar.


2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance
( not constant with frequency ) form a frequency
dependent potential divider resulting in colouration.

Yep can happen if the resistance is too high, more than
likely in this case. Of course since the speaker is
unlikely to be perfect to begin with, it's hard to say
whether it will be worse anyway. I wonder whether he is
really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that
cat 5 :-)

Agreed. The frequency response differences observed with low damping factor
amplifiers are mostly due to the impedance curve of the speaker interacting
with the high output impedance of the amplifier. The impedance curve of the
speaker is relatively unchanged. IOW differences are on the order of like
1%.

"Pooh Bear" wrote
in message
"Mr.T" wrote:

"Pooh Bear"
wrote in message ...
1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting
in a less accurate sound.

No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates.

A classic misunderstanding.You need to understand where
the amplifier's feedback is taken from.

Neither the speaker wire or speaker resistance is
included in the amplifier feedback loop. They could be
of course if you want to design it that way.

I do hope you're not making a classic mistake here of
thinking you can simply lump in the cable resistance with
the speaker impedance.

Ken Kantor made that *mistake* when he designed his NHTPro speakers a few
years back.

My friend Dave Clark has made the same *mistake* in some of his system
designs.

Of course, it is no mistake!

Ken Kantor and Dave Clark have literally forgotten more about speakers
than... ;-)

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Pooh Bear"
wrote in message ...
2 things happen you haven't considered.

1. Damping factor is radically reduced resulting in a
less accurate sound.
No it's not, the speaker resistance still dominates. You
mean slightly reduced.

Agreed. This is one reason why the term "damping factor" is such a crock.
Typical speakers are highly inefficient which among other things means that
the mechanical parts of the speaker work pretty much the same regardless of
the source impedance for the voice coil. IOW, the Q of the mechanical
resonance of a woofer is pretty much the same no matter how you drive its
voice coil. The voice coil is only loosly coupled to the woofer cone by the
magnetic field.

Do you really mean this a stated? In all the 'speakers I've seen, the
voice coil is glued to the coil former, and the former is rigidly
attached to the cone, consequently, any movement of the voice coil is
transmitted directly to the cone.

This is implicit in most means that are used to estimate the
mechanical and electrical Q of a driver for measurements of Thiel-Small
parameters. If you measure the impedance curve of a woofer with a constant
current source or a low impedance source, the results are very similar.

Of course, as you are measuring the impedance curve of the woofer, so
the method of drive is irrelevant as long as it is taken into
consideration in the calculation.


2. The cable resistance and the loudspeaker impedance
( not constant with frequency ) form a frequency
dependent potential divider resulting in colouration.
Yep can happen if the resistance is too high, more than
likely in this case. Of course since the speaker is
unlikely to be perfect to begin with, it's hard to say
whether it will be worse anyway. I wonder whether he is
really going to use $100,000 speakers at the end of that
cat 5 :-)

Agreed. The frequency response differences observed with low damping factor
amplifiers are mostly due to the impedance curve of the speaker interacting
with the high output impedance of the amplifier. The impedance curve of the
speaker is relatively unchanged. IOW differences are on the order of like
1%.
Why as much as 1%? The frequency response of the 'speaker can vary
considerably if driven from a high source impedance, but the impedance
of the 'speaker, I think, should be unchanged regardless of how driven.

S.