I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
for my ourboard devices
Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
ports and ext devices
connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF
Is the hot swappable claim of firewire just ad copy ? what other
firewire devices forbid hot swapping?
thanks
George

On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
I think all the FW units are a little different.

George wrote:
I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
for my ourboard devices
Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
ports and ext devices
connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF
Is the hot swappable claim of firewire just ad copy ? what other
firewire devices forbid hot swapping?
thanks
George

In article writes:

I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
for my ourboard devices
Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
ports and ext devices
connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF

I think it depends on how powering is handled. Data is hot-swappable,
and because they push the technology heavily for disk drives and video
cameras, I suppose those are designed so they can be yanked and
plugged without damage.

Something like an audio interface generally has no compelling need to
be hot-swapped, so maybe they just didn't bother with taking care of
that end of the business in hardware, but dealt with it in software
(the documentation).

I'd trust what the manual for the Firewire M-410 says.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article , Danny
wrote:

On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
I think all the FW units are a little different.

IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
hardware.

HTH

Marc

--
Marc Heusser
(remove the obvious: CHEERS and MERICAL...until end to reply via email)

Marc Heusser wrote:



IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
hardware.

HTH

Marc


Thanks for that. I thought so but you know I always swallow a rock when
I unplug.

I thought so but you know I always swallow a rock when
I unplug.

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
will.

Scott Fraser

In article ,
lid says...
IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
hardware.

Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives that
can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

In article writes:

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
will.

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article znr1093804170k@trad, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

In article
writes:

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
will.

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."


I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
regardless of if I am warned or not
Thanks guys
G

Mike rivers expressed:

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
BRBR

The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.

Mac

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny wrote:

On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
I think all the FW units are a little different.

Does it say physical damage might be done? Or that data buffers might
be lost?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny wrote:


On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
I think all the FW units are a little different.


Does it say physical damage might be done? Or that data buffers might
be lost?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
It says data might be lost... but it never is.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny wrote:

On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
I think all the FW units are a little different.

I've not used the external Firewire interfaces on my Mac G4 (yet) but, I just
got an external DVD combo drive for my PC. The manual states, "you can unplug
without fear as long as your not writing to, or reading from the drive." Really
has no pressing to your question, I just wanted to throw in some PC info just
for the heck of it.

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that
the
FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
will.

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."


It's a Mac thing. The way you unmount a drive or eject a disk is to drag its
icon to the trash. Also, any data item sitting in the trash can be retrieved up
until you intentionally empty the trash. It's a Mac thing.


Scott Fraser

I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
regardless of if I am warned or not

But they are. I do it all the time. Dragging to the trash is just the Mac
method of unmounting a drive.

Scott Fraser

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes:


With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
will.


I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."


That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.

In article ost writes:

The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
out either.

Where do people learn this stuff?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article znr1093827829k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:

In article ost writes:

The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
out either.

On the Xerox Star, the first commercial machine with a GUI and the place
where Apple got the notion of the trashcan, there is also a Jesus icon which
can be used to resurrect dead files.

I think the whole thing is very counterintuitive, but this isn't really
the place to point out why I hate GUIs so much.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."

That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.

Or maybe Mac users have a better imagination. When I want to get rid
of something physical, I put it in the trash. I have (more often than
I'd like to admit) occasionally rooted through the trash can to
retrieve something, usually a piece of paper. But I can't count on
anything being there or being retrievable. Ever try to read through a
cup full of coffee grounds?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives that
can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.


There have been lots of documented cases of blown FW controllers on
Mac G4's when "Hot Plugging". Some were probably ESD though.

c'mon, guys,

Windows took a cue from Mac years ago and created the Eco-Friendly Recycle
Bin. Now, we have the same basic thing as the MacTrashcan. Adding Norton
SystemWorks gives another layer of protection, as NSW can 'protect' the
RecycleBin so even after you empty the RB, NSW holds on to it for a
user-specified period of time before actually deleting it- kinda like taking
the recycling to the curb, you need to wait for the trash men to come pick
it up.

As far as the 1394 thing with PCs, it's all HotSwap, too. Some devices,
like harddrives, use Delayed Write or write buffering, which can give an
error if you unplug while it's still waiting to dump to the disk, but other
than that, it's all good.

and, yes, i have had to read through grinds- it's lame and I hate it.

Be well



"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1093871818k@trad...

In article writes:

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."

That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.

Or maybe Mac users have a better imagination. When I want to get rid
of something physical, I put it in the trash. I have (more often than
I'd like to admit) occasionally rooted through the trash can to
retrieve something, usually a piece of paper. But I can't count on
anything being there or being retrievable. Ever try to read through a
cup full of coffee grounds?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

George wrote:

(Mike Rivers) wrote:

dy writes:

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so
that the FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After
that, unplug at will.

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."

To Mike: I/we am/are telling you differently.

I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
regardless of if I am warned or not

It doesn't not mean under Mac OS what Mike is thinking it means from his
Wintel viewpoint. It means dismount the drive or device in question, so
that the system knows not to expect it there next time the sys looks
around to see what's hooked up.

You may do this with total impunity; it does not erase anything at all
from your drive. If you do not do this your Mac may become confused, and
shortly thereafter, you, too, may become confused. This will lead to a
reboot.

--
ha

Jay Levitt wrote:

Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives that
can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.

There was a string of Mac laptops, including TiBooks like mine, that
suffered from a FW defect, and that was the source of the blown busses.
It wasn't th fault of the drive, it was Apple's fault. Beyond a certain
date of manufacture one needn't worry about this, as eventually the
bitching got to Apple's brain, even as the warranty fixes impacted
Apple's bottom line, and action was taken to fix the buss. I waited to
buy my TiBook until the last "still boots OS9" 'books were near their
end-of-(sales)-life.

--
ha

(ScotFraser) wrote in message ...

SNIP

It's a Mac thing.


Scott Fraser

Sort of like Volkswagens, right?

My keyboard player has this theory that there is a high rate of
corollation between people that buy Macs and Volkswagen Jettas and
GTi's.

Analogeezer

Ever try to read through a
cup full of coffee grounds?

I can attest that magnetic tape is playable through a large qualtity of coffee
grounds & old stale milk.



Scott Fraser

Mike Rivers wrote:

But I can't count on anything being there or being retrievable. Ever
try to read through a cup full of coffee grounds?


Heck, haven't you ever retrieved the grounds *and* the newspaper because
you were out of coffee?



-- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the
spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked
from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret
decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

I can attest that magnetic tape is playable through a large qualtity of coffee
grounds & old stale milk.

Oh, so you've eaten breakfast over an open box of tape, too?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Analogeezer posited:

Sort of like Volkswagens, right?

My keyboard player has this theory that there is a high rate of
corollation between people that buy Macs and Volkswagen Jettas and
GTi's.

Analogeezer BRBR

As the owner at various times of 3 VW's and 2 Audi's and 6 Macs I can't
disagree.

Mac Kerr

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article
writes:

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that
the FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that,
unplug at will.

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."

Yeah, it's a little conter-intuitive at first. But certainly not worst
than selecting a "Start" menu to shut down a computer

-- Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

Oh, so you've eaten breakfast over an open box of tape, too?


"What do mean where's the reel? Those were out takes, weren't they? Oh ****..."



Scott Fraser

Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:10:41 GMT, suggested:
: Mike Rivers wrote:
:
: In article
: writes:
:
: With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that
: the FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that,
: unplug at will.
:
: I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
: imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
:
: Yeah, it's a little conter-intuitive at first. But certainly not worst
: than selecting a "Start" menu to shut down a computer

Yeah, and it's moot once you get to MacOS 10. The Trash Can helpfully
turns into the universal symbol for 'eject' if you are dragging a volume.

--
agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article ost writes:


The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.


Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
out either.

Where do people learn this stuff?


From Lieber and Stoller, via the Coasters ( yakkety yak - don't
talk back )

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

--
Les Cargill

In article writes:

Yeah, and it's moot once you get to MacOS 10. The Trash Can helpfully
turns into the universal symbol for 'eject' if you are dragging a volume.

Does it know that you're _dragging_ a drive (volume), changing its
shape once the drive icon is on the way to somewhere? Or does it not
change until you actually put the drive icon on the trash can icon?

If the former, that's pretty cool (as long as you know to look for
it). If the latter, then you need to have the guts to let go of the
mouse button the first time and gain confidence that it unmonuts the
drive and doesn't delete its contents.

Human interfaces are so tricky, because humans come with different
perceptions and concepts.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article znr1093947630k@trad, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

In article writes:

Yeah, and it's moot once you get to MacOS 10. The Trash Can helpfully
turns into the universal symbol for 'eject' if you are dragging a volume.

Does it know that you're _dragging_ a drive (volume), changing its
shape once the drive icon is on the way to somewhere? Or does it not
change until you actually put the drive icon on the trash can icon?

If the former, that's pretty cool (as long as you know to look for
it). If the latter, then you need to have the guts to let go of the
mouse button the first time and gain confidence that it unmonuts the
drive and doesn't delete its contents.

the icon changes, the trash can disappears and the eject symbol replaces
it
you also use it to eject CD's from a drive
George

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes:


Yeah, and it's moot once you get to MacOS 10. The Trash Can helpfully
turns into the universal symbol for 'eject' if you are dragging a volume.


Does it know that you're _dragging_ a drive (volume), changing its
shape once the drive icon is on the way to somewhere? Or does it not
change until you actually put the drive icon on the trash can icon?

If the former, that's pretty cool (as long as you know to look for
it). If the latter, then you need to have the guts to let go of the
mouse button the first time and gain confidence that it unmonuts the
drive and doesn't delete its contents.


Yes, it's the former. As soon as the icon starts to move, the eject
symbol replaces the trash can, even if the drive icon is clear across
the desktop.

If the latter, then you need to have the guts to let go of the
mouse button the first time and gain confidence that it unmonuts the
drive and doesn't delete its contents.


It's not guts, it's just familiarity with Mac commands. To delete the contents
of a drive on a Mac you drag the files out of the drive into the trash, & then
it still asks you if you are sure you want to delete the items when you go to
empty the trash. It's designed so that you have to be pretty determined to
delete stuff.


Scott Fraser

Does it know that you're _dragging_ a drive (volume), changing its
shape once the drive icon is on the way to somewhere? Or does it not
change until you actually put the drive icon on the trash can icon?

In article writes:

the icon changes, the trash can disappears and the eject symbol replaces
it

But WHEN does it change? As soon as you start dragging a drive icon,
or not until you actually drag the drive icon on top of the trash can.
That's what I asked.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

It's not guts, it's just familiarity with Mac commands.

But when learning the conventions, sometimes you have to just do
something and see what happens.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Mike Rivers wrote:
Does it know that you're _dragging_ a drive (volume), changing its
shape once the drive icon is on the way to somewhere? Or does it not
change until you actually put the drive icon on the trash can icon?


In article writes:


the icon changes, the trash can disappears and the eject symbol replaces
it


But WHEN does it change? As soon as you start dragging a drive icon,
or not until you actually drag the drive icon on top of the trash can.
That's what I asked.


The very instant you start to drag the icon. As soon as it knows you're
doing a click-and-drag operation. Before your eyes can move down to the
trash icon, it's too fast to tell exactly. Before you can even start
say "I wonder why Bill doesn't think of this stuff".

In article writes:

But WHEN does it change?

The very instant you start to drag the icon. As soon as it knows you're
doing a click-and-drag operation. Before your eyes can move down to the
trash icon, it's too fast to tell exactly.

That's good enough for me. But I wonder how long it would take me to
actually notice that. Or, when given the instructions "Before
un-plugging the Firewire drive, drag its icon over to the trash can."
I'd start doing that, then look all over the damn screen wondering
what happened to the trash can icon.

Before you can even start
say "I wonder why Bill doesn't think of this stuff".

I don't think Bill ever wants you to unmount a disk volume.

I guess I'll just never be a very good Mac user.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo