(Lars Farm) wrote in message news:1ggq8pw.1jqcjez7n1n0bN%mail.addr.can.be.foun ...
mr c deckard wrote:

/L, i think you missed my point, which is that the line between
legitimacy and "cheating" seems to be arbitrary. i.e., in a way, the
equal tempered scale is cheating.

Yes, arbitrary.




no, no, no. what i mean is this: if one would accuse someone who
uses autotune of "cheating", you could then go a few more logical
steps and accuse one who uses a fretted instrument of cheating.

my point is that where you draw the line is a matter of opinion. in
10 years, we might have polyphonic autotune, and it might not be
uncommon for a mixer to insert autotune on all the mix channels in the
DAW -- kinda like compression is today.

i don't think it's cheating. sometimes i like, other instances, i
don't. besides, autotune is so last week. pitch following will be
next. but right now, i'm curious about genetic reverbs. . .

cheers,
chris deckard
saint louis, mo

(Lars Farm) wrote in message news:1ggq8pw.1jqcjez7n1n0bN%mail.addr.can.be.foun ...
mr c deckard wrote:

/L, i think you missed my point, which is that the line between
legitimacy and "cheating" seems to be arbitrary. i.e., in a way, the
equal tempered scale is cheating.

Yes, arbitrary.




no, no, no. what i mean is this: if one would accuse someone who
uses autotune of "cheating", you could then go a few more logical
steps and accuse one who uses a fretted instrument of cheating.

my point is that where you draw the line is a matter of opinion. in
10 years, we might have polyphonic autotune, and it might not be
uncommon for a mixer to insert autotune on all the mix channels in the
DAW -- kinda like compression is today.

i don't think it's cheating. sometimes i like, other instances, i
don't. besides, autotune is so last week. pitch following will be
next. but right now, i'm curious about genetic reverbs. . .

cheers,
chris deckard
saint louis, mo

mr c deckard wrote:

my point is that where you draw the line is a matter of opinion. in

Who is the artist, the singer or the audio engineer? Is the CD the work
of art or is the recorded performance the actual work of art? Where is
the music, in the performance or in the technology?

/Lars


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se

mr c deckard wrote:

my point is that where you draw the line is a matter of opinion. in

Who is the artist, the singer or the audio engineer? Is the CD the work
of art or is the recorded performance the actual work of art? Where is
the music, in the performance or in the technology?

/Lars


--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se

Lars Farm wrote:
mr c deckard wrote:

my point is that where you draw the line is a matter of opinion. in

Who is the artist, the singer or the audio engineer? Is the CD the work
of art or is the recorded performance the actual work of art? Where is
the music, in the performance or in the technology?

I've been trying to find the answer to those three questions for most of
my life. But, I'll say that the answers are very different in the pop
music and classical music worlds, whatever they are.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Lars Farm wrote:
mr c deckard wrote:

my point is that where you draw the line is a matter of opinion. in

Who is the artist, the singer or the audio engineer? Is the CD the work
of art or is the recorded performance the actual work of art? Where is
the music, in the performance or in the technology?

I've been trying to find the answer to those three questions for most of
my life. But, I'll say that the answers are very different in the pop
music and classical music worlds, whatever they are.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Who is the artist, the singer or the audio engineer? Is the CD the work
of art or is the recorded performance the actual work of art? Where is
the music, in the performance or in the technology?

/Lars

i think the distinction in all these cases is getting more and more
blurred.

what if i patch autotune into the headphone mix, and the singer starts
working off of what the autotuner is doing to their voice?

cheers,
chris deckard
saint louis mo

Who is the artist, the singer or the audio engineer? Is the CD the work
of art or is the recorded performance the actual work of art? Where is
the music, in the performance or in the technology?

/Lars

i think the distinction in all these cases is getting more and more
blurred.

what if i patch autotune into the headphone mix, and the singer starts
working off of what the autotuner is doing to their voice?

cheers,
chris deckard
saint louis mo

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:17:45 -0500, "Romeo Rondeau"
wrote:

Here the one doing the postprocessing with autotune is abusing his power
by arbitrarily applying autotune and fixing things that might not need
fixing.

Whether or not it needs fixing is a matter of opinion.


Often it is the opinion of the guy with the wallet that it needs
fixing. If there is no wallet involved, then it is your own opinion
and (probably) your own project.





Kurt Riemann

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:17:45 -0500, "Romeo Rondeau"
wrote:

Here the one doing the postprocessing with autotune is abusing his power
by arbitrarily applying autotune and fixing things that might not need
fixing.

Whether or not it needs fixing is a matter of opinion.


Often it is the opinion of the guy with the wallet that it needs
fixing. If there is no wallet involved, then it is your own opinion
and (probably) your own project.





Kurt Riemann

"mr c deckard" wrote in message

what if i patch autotune into the headphone mix, and the singer starts
working off of what the autotuner is doing to their voice?

You would be eliminated. ;-)

DM

"mr c deckard" wrote in message

what if i patch autotune into the headphone mix, and the singer starts
working off of what the autotuner is doing to their voice?

You would be eliminated. ;-)

DM

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:15:27 GMT,
(Lars Farm) wrote:

Who is the artist, the singer or the audio engineer? Is the CD the work
of art or is the recorded performance the actual work of art? Where is
the music, in the performance or in the technology?

I hope we all struggle with this as much as it deserves.
I try to assess the needs and desire of the client as to whether we
are documenting a performance, this is usually the case with folkies,
jazz and classical players, or if we are creating art together, or if
I am the tool as much as the rest of the technology to help someone
realize there personal vision, without my input of ideas, my least
favourite unless the artist is so thoughtful that I learn a ton and
never feel undervalued.
This needs to be defined early on in the process. Since I produce and
engineer I need to know if they want a producer before I start trying
to arrange and orchestrate. And if they do, in what capacity?

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:15:27 GMT,
(Lars Farm) wrote:

Who is the artist, the singer or the audio engineer? Is the CD the work
of art or is the recorded performance the actual work of art? Where is
the music, in the performance or in the technology?

I hope we all struggle with this as much as it deserves.
I try to assess the needs and desire of the client as to whether we
are documenting a performance, this is usually the case with folkies,
jazz and classical players, or if we are creating art together, or if
I am the tool as much as the rest of the technology to help someone
realize there personal vision, without my input of ideas, my least
favourite unless the artist is so thoughtful that I learn a ton and
never feel undervalued.
This needs to be defined early on in the process. Since I produce and
engineer I need to know if they want a producer before I start trying
to arrange and orchestrate. And if they do, in what capacity?

I've been trying to find the answer to those three questions for most of
my life. But, I'll say that the answers are very different in the pop
music and classical music worlds, whatever they are.

After my last ever * hour HipHop session I would say that in this case the
artist is me.
Concentrating, balancing, arranging, cutting, pasting, doubling parts, adding
"appropriate" effects, keeping 14 guys
(all under 20) focused and not smoking in the studio, keeping track of
everything when everyone refuses to write anything down or even listen to
reasons why the should write things down...yeah..it was me.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

I've been trying to find the answer to those three questions for most of
my life. But, I'll say that the answers are very different in the pop
music and classical music worlds, whatever they are.

After my last ever * hour HipHop session I would say that in this case the
artist is me.
Concentrating, balancing, arranging, cutting, pasting, doubling parts, adding
"appropriate" effects, keeping 14 guys
(all under 20) focused and not smoking in the studio, keeping track of
everything when everyone refuses to write anything down or even listen to
reasons why the should write things down...yeah..it was me.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

(Blind Joni) wrote in message ...

After my last ever * hour HipHop session I would say that in this case the
artist is me.
Concentrating, balancing, arranging, cutting, pasting, doubling parts, adding
"appropriate" effects, keeping 14 guys
(all under 20) focused and not smoking in the studio, keeping track of
everything when everyone refuses to write anything down or even listen to
reasons why the should write things down...yeah..it was me.



hey john, you're giving me flashbacks. been there. all of that and
the 25% show rate (i'd rather not deal with no shows than ask for a
security deposit) led me to the same conclusion.

cheers,
chris deckard
saintlouismo

(Blind Joni) wrote in message ...

After my last ever * hour HipHop session I would say that in this case the
artist is me.
Concentrating, balancing, arranging, cutting, pasting, doubling parts, adding
"appropriate" effects, keeping 14 guys
(all under 20) focused and not smoking in the studio, keeping track of
everything when everyone refuses to write anything down or even listen to
reasons why the should write things down...yeah..it was me.



hey john, you're giving me flashbacks. been there. all of that and
the 25% show rate (i'd rather not deal with no shows than ask for a
security deposit) led me to the same conclusion.

cheers,
chris deckard
saintlouismo

Late to the party, but that was hilarious.


On 2004-07-08 12:15:50 -0400, Danny Taddei said:

I found this a while back and thought it funny -

Beyond the Bass Clef: The Life and Art of Bass Playing
-- by Tony Levin

In the beginning there was a bass. It was a Fender, probably a
Precision,but it could have been a Jazz -- nobody knows.
Anyway, it was very old...
definitely pre-C.B.S.

And God looked down upon it and saw that it was
good. He saw that it was
very good in fact, and couldn't be improved on at
all (though men would
later try.) And so He let it be and He created a man
to play the bass.

And lo the man looked upon the bass, which was a
beautiful 'sunburst' red,
and he loved it. He played upon the open E string
and the note rang through
the earth and reverberated throughout the firmaments
(thus reverb came to
be.) And it was good. And God heard that it was good
and He smiled at his
handiwork.

Then in the course of time, the man came to slap
upon the bass. And lo it
was funky.

And God heard this funkiness and He said, "Go man,
go." And it was good.

And more time passed, and, having little else to
do, the man came to
practice upon the bass. And lo, the man came to have
upon him a great set of
chops. And he did play faster and faster until the
notes rippled like a
breeze through the heavens.

And God heard this sound which sounded something
like the wind, which He
had created earlier. It also sounded something like
the movement of
furniture, which He hadn't even created yet, and He
was not so pleased. And
He spoke to the man, saying "Don't do that!"

Now the man heard the voice of God, but he was so
excited about his new
ability that he slapped upon the bass a blizzard of
funky notes. And the
heavens shook with the sound, and the Angels ran
about in confusion.
(Some of the Angels started to dance, but that's
another story.)

And God heard this -- how could He miss it -- and
lo He became Bugged. And
He spoke to the man, and He said, "Listen man, if I
wanted Jimi Hendrix I
would have created the guitar. Stick to the bass
parts."

And the man heard the voice of God, and he knew not
to mess with it. But
now he had upon him a passion for playing fast and
high. The man took the
frets off of the bass which God had created. And the
man did slide his
fingers upon the fretless fingerboard and play
melodies high upon the neck.
And, in his excitement, the man did forget the
commandment of the Lord, and
he played a frenzy of high melodies and blindingly
fast licks. And the
heavens rocked with the assault and the earth shook,
rattled and rolled.

Now God's wrath was great. And His voice was
thunder as He spoke to the
man.

And He said, "O.K. for you, pal. You have not
heeded My word. Lo, I shall
create a soprano saxophone and it shall play higher
than you can even think
of."

"And from out of the chaos I shall bring forth the
drums. And they shall
play so many notes thine head shall ache, and I
shall make you to always
stand next to the drummer."

"You think you're loud? I shall create a stack of
Marshall guitar amps to
make thine ears bleed. And I shall send down upon
the earth other
instruments, and lo, they shall all be able to play
higher and faster than
the bass."

"And for all the days of man, your curse shall be
this; that all the other
musicians shall look to you, the bass player, for
the low notes. And if you
play too high or fast all the other musicians shall
say "Wow" but really
they shall hate it. And they shall tell you you're
ready for your solo
career, and find other bass players for their bands.
And for all your days
if you want to play your fancy licks you shall have
to sneak them in like a
thief in the night."

"And if you finally do get to play a solo, everyone
shall leave the
bandstand and go to the bar for a drink."

And it was so.


Geetar Dave wrote:

Kurt Riemann wrote in message
. ..

Maybe having a two-month-old AND a three year old have turned my brain
to jelly, but I was reading a thread on autotune and out plopped this
rant from my keyboard. -------------------------------------

Autotune?

So what?

We lie about practically everything else on an album.

- their tempo sucks so they play to a click
- they have no dynamic sense so I use a compressor - they forget the
words so I punch them in - the bassist is drunk so I overdub him later
- neither take was perfect so I edit them together
- they record in a studio so I add a Hall reverb
- his timing was off so I shift the track
- the piano is sampled, so it's not out of tune
- the sequencer is locked to SMPTE so the notes are spot-on

I EQ and change mikes and move people around and rent other drum kits
and use Amp Farm. I get on the talkback and say "That was Great." I'm
a liar just like the rest of you freaks.



I find this all hits rather close to home, except that the bassists I
know are sober, and I never use amp farm (though I DO use a SansAmp
sometimes).

-dave
www.themoodrings.com

Late to the party, but that was hilarious.


On 2004-07-08 12:15:50 -0400, Danny Taddei said:

I found this a while back and thought it funny -

Beyond the Bass Clef: The Life and Art of Bass Playing
-- by Tony Levin

In the beginning there was a bass. It was a Fender, probably a
Precision,but it could have been a Jazz -- nobody knows.
Anyway, it was very old...
definitely pre-C.B.S.

And God looked down upon it and saw that it was
good. He saw that it was
very good in fact, and couldn't be improved on at
all (though men would
later try.) And so He let it be and He created a man
to play the bass.

And lo the man looked upon the bass, which was a
beautiful 'sunburst' red,
and he loved it. He played upon the open E string
and the note rang through
the earth and reverberated throughout the firmaments
(thus reverb came to
be.) And it was good. And God heard that it was good
and He smiled at his
handiwork.

Then in the course of time, the man came to slap
upon the bass. And lo it
was funky.

And God heard this funkiness and He said, "Go man,
go." And it was good.

And more time passed, and, having little else to
do, the man came to
practice upon the bass. And lo, the man came to have
upon him a great set of
chops. And he did play faster and faster until the
notes rippled like a
breeze through the heavens.

And God heard this sound which sounded something
like the wind, which He
had created earlier. It also sounded something like
the movement of
furniture, which He hadn't even created yet, and He
was not so pleased. And
He spoke to the man, saying "Don't do that!"

Now the man heard the voice of God, but he was so
excited about his new
ability that he slapped upon the bass a blizzard of
funky notes. And the
heavens shook with the sound, and the Angels ran
about in confusion.
(Some of the Angels started to dance, but that's
another story.)

And God heard this -- how could He miss it -- and
lo He became Bugged. And
He spoke to the man, and He said, "Listen man, if I
wanted Jimi Hendrix I
would have created the guitar. Stick to the bass
parts."

And the man heard the voice of God, and he knew not
to mess with it. But
now he had upon him a passion for playing fast and
high. The man took the
frets off of the bass which God had created. And the
man did slide his
fingers upon the fretless fingerboard and play
melodies high upon the neck.
And, in his excitement, the man did forget the
commandment of the Lord, and
he played a frenzy of high melodies and blindingly
fast licks. And the
heavens rocked with the assault and the earth shook,
rattled and rolled.

Now God's wrath was great. And His voice was
thunder as He spoke to the
man.

And He said, "O.K. for you, pal. You have not
heeded My word. Lo, I shall
create a soprano saxophone and it shall play higher
than you can even think
of."

"And from out of the chaos I shall bring forth the
drums. And they shall
play so many notes thine head shall ache, and I
shall make you to always
stand next to the drummer."

"You think you're loud? I shall create a stack of
Marshall guitar amps to
make thine ears bleed. And I shall send down upon
the earth other
instruments, and lo, they shall all be able to play
higher and faster than
the bass."

"And for all the days of man, your curse shall be
this; that all the other
musicians shall look to you, the bass player, for
the low notes. And if you
play too high or fast all the other musicians shall
say "Wow" but really
they shall hate it. And they shall tell you you're
ready for your solo
career, and find other bass players for their bands.
And for all your days
if you want to play your fancy licks you shall have
to sneak them in like a
thief in the night."

"And if you finally do get to play a solo, everyone
shall leave the
bandstand and go to the bar for a drink."

And it was so.


Geetar Dave wrote:

Kurt Riemann wrote in message
. ..

Maybe having a two-month-old AND a three year old have turned my brain
to jelly, but I was reading a thread on autotune and out plopped this
rant from my keyboard. -------------------------------------

Autotune?

So what?

We lie about practically everything else on an album.

- their tempo sucks so they play to a click
- they have no dynamic sense so I use a compressor - they forget the
words so I punch them in - the bassist is drunk so I overdub him later
- neither take was perfect so I edit them together
- they record in a studio so I add a Hall reverb
- his timing was off so I shift the track
- the piano is sampled, so it's not out of tune
- the sequencer is locked to SMPTE so the notes are spot-on

I EQ and change mikes and move people around and rent other drum kits
and use Amp Farm. I get on the talkback and say "That was Great." I'm
a liar just like the rest of you freaks.



I find this all hits rather close to home, except that the bassists I
know are sober, and I never use amp farm (though I DO use a SansAmp
sometimes).

-dave
www.themoodrings.com