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#121
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Audio over DVD video?
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#122
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Audio over DVD video?
S888Wheel wrote:
snip the previous, since what works as explanation (with an a) is so different between the two parties. No, you said that Steve Hoffman's forum and all it's members can be dismissed based on his endorsement of this product. His endorsement was based on an audition. So the issue is very much whether or not this product is an effective room treatment since that is all that Steve Hoffman's endorsement would support. This is really what started this debate. Please show me where I said that all its' members can be dismissed based on his endorsements of this product. I actually have a lot of respect for some (former) members' views. I said that a survey done on his forum members will not give results representative of audio enthusiasts in the real world. I said that there is a higher percentage of vinylphiles and subjectivists in his forum than you will find in the real world. How you can twist that to mean that "all its members can be dismissed" is simply ridiculous. Now, definitively any claims by Mr Hoffman regarding hardware should be looked at with suspicion, based on that endorsement. Whether it works or not, depends on what you mean by work. What I mean by work is whether or not it can make a noticable improvement in the acoustics of a room. That is, after all, the only claim Steve Hoffman has made about this product. By that definition, that device does not work. If you do not believe that an explanation based on the areas is good enough for you, you are free to believe that it works. I'm sure some people believe they work, and if they believe it, that may be good enough for them. Based on the dimensions on the gadget, there is no way the thing can work as claimed. Well then cite the math and the principles of room acoustics to support your assertion. Please! I already told you the relative size of the reflecting surface is miniscule for the purpose of reflection. Now if your question is whether it can make any measureable difference or not, then yeah, I believe that there may be some placement of the gadget that will make a measureable difference in the sound waves arriving at the listening position. But I won't say that it works. It's much more likely to screw things up than helping. You are saying a lot about it without any citation of known laws of room acoustics to support your assertions. Please then provide a citation that supports your theory that it works. |
#123
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Audio over DVD video?
"Nousaine" wrote in message
... "Harry Lavo" wrote: ...snip to specific content .... Beg pardon, but if Stylasted as soon as purchased and played with either a low mass arm and cartridge (such as the ADC XLM or Shure V15) at less than gram, or alternately, played with a properly set-up medium mass, medium compliance MC shibata-type stylus cartridge at under 2 grams, the record can be played and played and played with no noticeable audible deterioration. You just can't play it over and over right away. It takes some time for the vinyl to restore itself between plays. We're talking hours here, not days. I always hated not being able to listen to my favorite songs more than once in a row. I even used to buy multiple copies of some lps to avoid that problem. Furthermore this was more than a simple "convenience" issue it was a major impediment in the pursuit of rational evaluation of other audio equipment. Actually, I got around that by buying the very best open real tape deck I could afford and recording the same record selection back to back on the tape, but hours apart in reality, changing cartridges, arms, etc. and comparing sound. Crude but effective. You are simply overstating reality. All I can say is that I have records from the mid-sixties that have been cared for as above and played several times a year and they still sound virtually brand new. For one thing, I do not leave records just sitting around, not even for five minutes. They come out of their covers, go on the turntable, come off the turntable and go back into their covers. I also try to keep my turntable mats free of free dust before playing records. But other than that they get ordinary care. I do not even own a record cleaning machine (although I do clean them once with distilled water and a brush before Stylasting.) I get a bit tired of hearing people dissing vinyl here who obviously did not or do not care for their records. Most of the problems mentioned here can be avoided or mitigated with care. If you cannot be bothered, and prefer CD for its convenience, that's fine..its your choice. But people who love the sound of vinyl are also willing to invest the energy into keeping it as pristine as possible. This is simply untrue in my case. I cared for my lps with unrequited love. Never played without a cleaning. Turntable adjustments mode with rigor and care. Well, since you obviously knew/know how to take care of them and not abuse them, what kind of shape are they in now? Do you still have good equipment to play them on? Can you still enjoy them? Convenience was never an issue. And, initially it was a slap in the face for an average consumer to get better sounding media without an equal devotion. But I got over that when I could program my favorite songs in the order I preferred and could play the sequence over and over with BETTER initial sound. I never felt that; I just didn't feel they sounded as good and held off seven years until the Phillips 880 came along. So please quit attacking vinyl for its "avoidable" flaws...its like saying older cars are inferior because you have to wax them. They are not inferior to the collectors who own and enjoy them and get more pleasure from them than they do from newer machines. "Avoidable flaws? I never got a 'playable without warpage' copy of Ry Cooder's 1978 "Bop 'Til You Drop" until it was re-released on cd a decade later. This was in spite of 4 purchased (with 3 returns) of the initial release on my own and three friends with warped copies. I certainly would not included your experience as an avoidable flaw, but rather as an inexcusable manufacturing practice, which the industry definitely turned to in the late seventies / early eighties. Perhaps being a bit older my record buying heyday fell *before* the downgrading of LP reproduction. I have a bunch of those Shaded Dog RCA's, some Everest's, etc. that I bought just as a matter of routine. They still sound terrific. |
#124
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Audio over DVD video?
This has become an purely an argument and it has passed being
interesting to the rest of the group, so this subthread on Shakti and Steve Hoffman is ended. From: chung Date: 3/22/2004 10:32 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: tjG7c.59246$_w.919487@attbi_s53 S888Wheel wrote: snip the previous, since what works as explanation (with an a) is so different between the two parties. No, you said that Steve Hoffman's forum and all it's members can be dismissed based on his endorsement of this product. His endorsement was based on an audition. So the issue is very much whether or not this product is an effective room treatment since that is all that Steve Hoffman's endorsement would support. This is really what started this debate. Please show me where I said that all its' members can be dismissed based on his endorsements of this product. I actually have a lot of respect for some (former) members' views. This would be the exchange that I believe amounts tosuch a claim... I said " I read it carefully enough. You said the same thing you are saying here. You are dismissing the group because of your presumptions about the forum membership bias. their bias is an interest in better sound for the sake of music." You said in response "Wait a minute, isn't Hoffman the guy who promoted this gadget: http://www.shakti-innovations.com/hallograph.htm Just based on that, I would not participate on his forum. Didn't Steven Sullivan got banned from his forum once for voicing his scientific opinions? Hmmm, that sounds like another audio asylum..." Looks to me like instead of denying my assertion that you have dismissed the group's opinions you are justifying it because of Steve Hoffman's endorsement of this product. I said that a survey done on his forum members will not give results representative of audio enthusiasts in the real world. I said that there is a higher percentage of vinylphiles and subjectivists in his forum than you will find in the real world. Yes, you said that too. How you can twist that to mean that "all its members can be dismissed" is simply ridiculous. Now, definitively any claims by Mr Hoffman regarding hardware should be looked at with suspicion, based on that endorsement. I don't believe I teisted anything. I thought you were attyacking the credibility of Steve Hoffman and the members of his forum as a whole and said so. Instead of saying you were not you chose to bring up this issue as an apparent justification for doing exactly what I asserted you were doing. Why elese would you bring up Steve Hoffmans endorsement of this product? Was it just a strawman to take a dig at Steve Hoffman? Whether it works or not, depends on what you mean by work. What I mean by work is whether or not it can make a noticable improvement in the acoustics of a room. That is, after all, the only claim Steve Hoffman has made about this product. By that definition, that device does not work. Prove it. Please. If you do not believe that an explanation based on the areas is good enough for you, you are free to believe that it works. I do not believe *your* explination based on the areas proves anything since you have continually failed to cite any reference to what the threshold of neccessary area for any diffusor to be effective is. I'm sure some people believe they work, and if they believe it, that may be good enough for them. Based on the dimensions on the gadget, there is no way the thing can work as claimed. Well then cite the math and the principles of room acoustics to support your assertion. Please! I already told you the relative size of the reflecting surface is miniscule for the purpose of reflection. How do you know it is too small to be an effective diffusor. You have not cited any reference to any valid principles of room acoustics to support this assertion. Now if your question is whether it can make any measureable difference or not, then yeah, I believe that there may be some placement of the gadget that will make a measureable difference in the sound waves arriving at the listening position. But I won't say that it works. It's much more likely to screw things up than helping. You are saying a lot about it without any citation of known laws of room acoustics to support your assertions. Please then provide a citation that supports your theory that it works. Why? I haven't made any claims that it works. You have made the claims that it doesn't work and cannot work. Your assertion, your burden of proof. We have been over this before. Your assertion looks totally unsupported and yet you claim it is fact. If you cannot prove it it looks like an act of faith. |
#125
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Audio over DVD video?
In article NS84c.7641$C51.58827@attbi_s52,
"Harry Lavo" wrote: snip I'm saying that if you find SACD doesn't sound similar to vinyl at all, then their is something wrong with either your SACD player or your vinyl, and I would suspect the latter since you seem to disdain vinyl. People who disdain vinyl rarely have invested in a first-class vinyl setup. snip Probably because the cost of first class vinyl setup, pretty much precludes people who don't believe in the superiority of vinyl. Entry level cartridges at thousands of dollars, then several thousand for the arm and platter, then thousands more for a phono first stage. |
#126
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Audio over DVD video?
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#127
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Audio over DVD video?
"Walter Bushell" wrote in message
... In article NS84c.7641$C51.58827@attbi_s52, "Harry Lavo" wrote: snip I'm saying that if you find SACD doesn't sound similar to vinyl at all, then their is something wrong with either your SACD player or your vinyl, and I would suspect the latter since you seem to disdain vinyl. People who disdain vinyl rarely have invested in a first-class vinyl setup. snip Probably because the cost of first class vinyl setup, pretty much precludes people who don't believe in the superiority of vinyl. Entry level cartridges at thousands of dollars, then several thousand for the arm and platter, then thousands more for a phono first stage. Fact is, my Dual 601 belt drive turntable with a Shure M92ED cartridge and Radio Shack stylus (my convenience table) sounds just about as good as my CD setup (Sony C222ES driving a DTI Pro driving a Proceed PDP DAC) and beats my secondary CD player (Panasonic S55). My Linn/Syrinx/Accuphase AC-2/modified Marcof PPA2 definately ties, if it does not better, the main CD setup. The first vinyl system costs about $225 used; the second system about $1600 used. The main CD system costs about $1000 used; the secondary Panasonic about $130. So vinyl cost is only slightly more, and performance as good/better. BTW, what is definitely better: I picked up six pristine '70's records today for $10.50. And have access to a whole bunch of RCA Living Stereo's for $10 a pop. Can't match that on CD. |
#128
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Audio over DVD video?
In article ,
Sean Fulop wrote: Snip Some have said that CDs can be made which are indistinguishable from master tapes. Vinyl afficionados will say that LPs can be pressed which sound _better_ than the master tapes. This is only possible by means of the distortions inherent in vinyl playback. This is why vinyl will always be "ahead" of digital formats for those people, until an electronic "vinylizer" is created that imitates the effects of records. -Sean But vinyl systems even (especially) the multi thousand dollar ones sound different. We would have the find the correct one (there can only be one) and and vinylize to that. That would leave the owners of other systems unhappy. Or maybe they swap cartridges and cables because they will not allow tone controls in their systems. |
#129
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Audio over DVD video?
In article , chung
wrote: snip Those knowledgeable know that the CD/SACD/DVD-A can reproduce music with an accuracy that the vinyl, due to its inherent short-comings, cannot. Those who love vinyl love certain LP recordings, or the euphonic properties of vinyl. The digital formats can reproduce the outputs of a phono-preamp accurately, and therefore it is the better delivery medium. In other words, if we like, we can put in all those euphonic sound qualities of vinyl on digital medium. It's that simple. Snip Adding echo to sound is a frequent audio enhancement. Given the relative levels of the record groove and the sound how can the tonearm not pick up the sound and feed it to the cartridge and hence to the system? At high frequencies we are looking at signals that require UV microscopes to pick up. We are talking movements less that a wavelength of light here. Anyway before I spend the money for a high end vinyl setup, I would need measurements or at least double blind test results. No a sighted test with me is not enough I know I can be fooled, even in ways I would not expect. |
#130
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Audio over DVD video?
"Walter Bushell" wrote in message
... In article , (S888Wheel) wrote: SniP There are a lot of CDs that are not up to snuf either. It goes both ways on that issue. I will say though, the LP is definitely more prone to manufacturing defects and to damage. Snip Remember the DyanaWarp disks from RCA. Guaranteed 1/4 warp in each disk. Ah, but a good test or challenge for your tonearm/cartridge combination, as was the Telarc 1812 cannon, to see if you good keep groove contact with minimal or no thumps. |
#131
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Audio over DVD video?
"Walter Bushell" wrote in message
news:OGOdc.1088$wP1.6900@attbi_s54... In article , chung wrote: snip Those knowledgeable know that the CD/SACD/DVD-A can reproduce music with an accuracy that the vinyl, due to its inherent short-comings, cannot. Those who love vinyl love certain LP recordings, or the euphonic properties of vinyl. The digital formats can reproduce the outputs of a phono-preamp accurately, and therefore it is the better delivery medium. In other words, if we like, we can put in all those euphonic sound qualities of vinyl on digital medium. It's that simple. Snip Adding echo to sound is a frequent audio enhancement. Given the relative levels of the record groove and the sound how can the tonearm not pick up the sound and feed it to the cartridge and hence to the system? At high frequencies we are looking at signals that require UV microscopes to pick up. We are talking movements less that a wavelength of light here. The sound in your room is probably fed back to your phono assembly as well. That's why in making tapes from vinyl it's best to turn down he volume. When my dog barks close by y TT, it is recorded on the tape. I would need measurements or at least double blind test results. No a sighted test with me is not enough I know I can be fooled, even in ways I would not expect. |
#132
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Audio over DVD video?
On 10 Apr 2004 05:07:40 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:
BTW, what is definitely better: I picked up six pristine '70's records today for $10.50. And have access to a whole bunch of RCA Living Stereo's for $10 a pop. Can't match that on CD. BTW, what is definitely better: I picked up six pristine brand new recordings today and I can buy as many as I want whenever I want. And I have access to whole bunches of live recordings made in the last 5 years. Can't match that on LP (at least not in classical music). Kal |
#133
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Audio over DVD video?
In article mhYdc.112072$w54.789032@attbi_s01,
"Norman Schwartz" wrote: "Walter Bushell" wrote in message news:OGOdc.1088$wP1.6900@attbi_s54... In article , chung wrote: snip Those knowledgeable know that the CD/SACD/DVD-A can reproduce music with an accuracy that the vinyl, due to its inherent short-comings, cannot. Those who love vinyl love certain LP recordings, or the euphonic properties of vinyl. The digital formats can reproduce the outputs of a phono-preamp accurately, and therefore it is the better delivery medium. In other words, if we like, we can put in all those euphonic sound qualities of vinyl on digital medium. It's that simple. Snip Adding echo to sound is a frequent audio enhancement. Given the relative levels of the record groove and the sound how can the tonearm not pick up the sound and feed it to the cartridge and hence to the system? At high frequencies we are looking at signals that require UV microscopes to pick up. We are talking movements less that a wavelength of light here. The sound in your room is probably fed back to your phono assembly as well. That's why in making tapes from vinyl it's best to turn down he volume. When my dog barks close by y TT, it is recorded on the tape. Now that is conclusive for your system at least, ambience can be heard what 30 to 40 db down. One thousandth the level, one ten thousandth the level? Keeping the sound level up would preserve on tape the experience of playing the record directly. I am going to have to visit my friend who just got a linear TT because the inner grove distortion was killing him. He picked the TT off of ebay for under $50. Yet audiophiles are paying thousands just for tone arms. See if taping at high volume and low volume produces a difference in sound. I would need measurements or at least double blind test results. No a sighted test with me is not enough I know I can be fooled, even in ways I would not expect. |
#134
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Audio over DVD video?
On 11 Apr 2004 15:15:44 GMT, Walter Bushell wrote:
I am going to have to visit my friend who just got a linear TT because the inner grove distortion was killing him. He picked the TT off of ebay for under $50. Yet audiophiles are paying thousands just for tone arms. Unfortunately, your friend has been misinformed, as inner-groove distortion is a function of groove speed, and thus cannot be corrected by a parallel-tracking tonearm. Such a tonearm can reduce *tracing* distortion, but has its own problems due to the vast disparity in horizontal and vertical effective masses. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#135
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Audio over DVD video?
In article mhYdc.112072$w54.789032@attbi_s01,
"Norman Schwartz" wrote: "Walter Bushell" wrote in message news:OGOdc.1088$wP1.6900@attbi_s54... In article , chung wrote: snip Those knowledgeable know that the CD/SACD/DVD-A can reproduce music with an accuracy that the vinyl, due to its inherent short-comings, cannot. Those who love vinyl love certain LP recordings, or the euphonic properties of vinyl. The digital formats can reproduce the outputs of a phono-preamp accurately, and therefore it is the better delivery medium. In other words, if we like, we can put in all those euphonic sound qualities of vinyl on digital medium. It's that simple. Snip Adding echo to sound is a frequent audio enhancement. Given the relative levels of the record groove and the sound how can the tonearm not pick up the sound and feed it to the cartridge and hence to the system? At high frequencies we are looking at signals that require UV microscopes to pick up. We are talking movements less that a wavelength of light here. The sound in your room is probably fed back to your phono assembly as well. That's why in making tapes from vinyl it's best to turn down he volume. When my dog barks close by y TT, it is recorded on the tape. Now that is conclusive for your system at least, ambience can be heard what 30 to 40 db down. One thousandth the level, one ten thousandth the level? Keeping the sound level up would preserve on tape the experience of playing the record directly. I am going to have to visit my friend who just got a linear TT because the inner grove distortion was killing him. He picked the TT off of ebay for under $50. Yet audiophiles are paying thousands just for tone arms. See if taping at high volume and low volume produces a difference in sound. I would need measurements or at least double blind test results. No a sighted test with me is not enough I know I can be fooled, even in ways I would not expect. |
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