[genericaudioperson]

Hello,

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot" mic). The TLM-103 throws out a
lot of signal compared to others like it, but it costs $1000. A lot
low-priced large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. Are there any that get north of 20?

Shotguns throw out a lot of signal, but are obviously quite
directional. Nady has a super cheap one for about $40. But I'm
skeptical of any mic for $40, much less a shotgun. I don't know of
any shotguns that are good below the Beyerdynamic $380 ones.

As a random question, I'm wondering if the mv/Pa spec is linear or
logarithmic. For example, I'm guessing a 20mv/Pa will produce 1/3
more signal than a 15mv/Pa one, all else being equal.

[Scott Dorsey]

genericaudioperson wrote:

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot" mic). The TLM-103 throws out a
lot of signal compared to others like it, but it costs $1000. A lot
low-priced large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. Are there any that get north of 20?

The TLM103 has horrible gain before feedback. Sensitivity has nothing to
do with gain before feedback, and pattern control has a lot to do with it.

In the cheap range I would look at the AKG D880 and the EV N/D 468. The
AKG has a huge presence peak, the EV does not.

Shotguns throw out a lot of signal, but are obviously quite
directional. Nady has a super cheap one for about $40. But I'm
skeptical of any mic for $40, much less a shotgun. I don't know of
any shotguns that are good below the Beyerdynamic $380 ones.

Actually, shotguns don't do what you think they do at all and in most
cases they really aren't very directional. They can be useful at dealing
with off-axis sound sources but they are not useful at all at dealing with
room reverberation and ambient noise. Because the off-axis response is
so awful, shotguns usually have much worse gain before feedback than a
comparable cardioid mike.

As a random question, I'm wondering if the mv/Pa spec is linear or
logarithmic. For example, I'm guessing a 20mv/Pa will produce 1/3
more signal than a 15mv/Pa one, all else being equal.

No, volts are linear and so are Pascals. But the sensitivity measurement
just tells you how much gain you need on the mike.... and gain is cheap,
you can have as much as you want these days. GBF is not cheap.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tim Perry]

"genericaudioperson" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot" mic).

I have to ask: why?
What is your need/application? Are you recording live or just doing live
sound? both?

A hot mic for live would be the Audix VX-10... but it not exactly cheap.
In face I just received 2 from Audix which were converted to VX-10 LO at no
charge. the reduces the output by 15 dB so as not to overload the mic
preamps in (you guessed it) live situations.

Currently I have in my hands for evaluation is a Samson Q7. This is a
supercardioid dynamic of low cost which in my one live test did not sound
any different then a Shure 58 on male vocal.
It certainly qualifies as low cost.

The TLM-103 throws out a
lot of signal compared to others like it, but it costs $1000. A lot
low-priced large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. Are there any that get north of 20?

Why are you concerned with "throwing out a lot of signal"? Are you using
Bogan mixers or something noisier?
If you are micing instruments, often you need to attenuate the signal, hence
the little switches built in to many condensers. See Audix ADX-51 or Shure
SM-81 for example.



Shotguns throw out a lot of signal, but are obviously quite
directional. Nady has a super cheap one for about $40. But I'm
skeptical of any mic for $40, much less a shotgun. I don't know of
any shotguns that are good below the Beyerdynamic $380 ones

For me shotguns come in handy as "spot" mics in live theatre. In some
occasions I use them for crowd noise mics in live broadcasts.
..

As a random question, I'm wondering if the mv/Pa spec is linear or
logarithmic. For example, I'm guessing a 20mv/Pa will produce 1/3
more signal than a 15mv/Pa one, all else being equal.

[Eeyore]

genericaudioperson wrote:

Hello,

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot" mic). The TLM-103 throws out a
lot of signal compared to others like it, but it costs $1000. A lot
low-priced large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. Are there any that get north of 20?

Sensitivity has nothing to do with gain before feedback which is
determined by the polar response.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
genericaudioperson wrote:

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics
that have a lot of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot"
mic). The TLM-103 throws out a lot of signal compared
to others like it, but it costs $1000. A lot low-priced
large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. Are there any that get north of 20?

Sensitivity has nothing to do with gain before feedback
which is determined by the polar response.

Right. Hypercardiod mics can provide some help.

In the end, the best solution for feedback is good acoustical design.

[Mark]

On Nov 27, 9:44*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in


genericaudioperson wrote:
Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics
that have a lot of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot"
mic). *The TLM-103 throws out a lot of signal compared
to others like it, but it costs $1000. *A lot low-priced
large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. *Are there any that get north of 20?

Sensitivity has nothing to do with gain before feedback
which is determined by the polar response.

Right. *Hypercardiod mics can provide some help.

In the end, the best solution for feedback is good acoustical design.

I would of thought that you guys would say a flat frequency response
is important as well.

Mark

[Chris Whealy]

genericaudioperson wrote:
Hello,

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot" mic). The TLM-103 throws out a
lot of signal compared to others like it, but it costs $1000. A lot
low-priced large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. Are there any that get north of 20?

Shotguns throw out a lot of signal, but are obviously quite
directional. Nady has a super cheap one for about $40. But I'm
skeptical of any mic for $40, much less a shotgun. I don't know of
any shotguns that are good below the Beyerdynamic $380 ones.

As a random question, I'm wondering if the mv/Pa spec is linear or
logarithmic. For example, I'm guessing a 20mv/Pa will produce 1/3
more signal than a 15mv/Pa one, all else being equal.

Hmmm, gain before feedback is determined by at least three factors:
1) the microphone's polar pattern
2) the acoustic ambient of the room
3) the difference between the needed acoustic gain (NAG), and the
potential acoustic gain (PAG)

The figures you have quoted are all related to sensitivity, which in
turn, is unrelated to GBF.

Since you haven't quoted the context within which you require high GBF,
I'll assume its some sort of sound reinforcement situation. Here are
some useful guidelines to follow:

1) The higher the amplification you require on a signal, the closer the
sound source should be mic'ed.
2) Determine your theoretical limits by working out your NAG and PAG
values. This is not a panacea calculation that will be the magic
solution in all situations because it is not possible to account for the
specific details of your acoustic situation, but at least you will have
some ballpark figures to work with. See my spreadsheet for doing this
http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/SRCalculator.html
3) (Very) generally speaking Hypercardioid mics tend to give better GBF
results than cardioids or supercardioids. Having said that, at my
church we use a Sanken CMS7 (stereo mic) positioned centrally in front
of an 80 member choir. It gives excellent GBF, but its not a hypercardioid!
4) Run your PA/Reinforcement system as low as is necessary to provide
clear, audible sound. As soon as you try and crank the volume, you'll
rapidly run into trouble. I.E. Get a sound level meter and stick within
the NAG/PAG limits!

Hope that helps

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[Arny Krueger]

"Mark" wrote in message

On Nov 27, 9:44 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote
in

genericaudioperson wrote:

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics
that have a lot of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot"
mic).

Hot mics and mics that are resistant to feedback are two different things.

The TLM-103 throws out a lot of signal compared
to others like it, but it costs $1000.

It's just a condenser mic, and not the kind of mic I'd choose for a SR vocal
application.

Consider a classic, highly-regarded vocal mic for SR - the audix OM7. It's
actually one of the lowest-output mics there are.

A lot low-priced
large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about
15mv/ Pa. Are there any that get north of 20?

You don't need 20 mv/Pa, just about any decent mic preamp has gain and noise
performance that will make up the difference.

Sensitivity has nothing to do with gain before feedback
which is determined by the polar response.

Right. Hypercardiod mics can provide some help.

In the end, the best solution for feedback is good
acoustical design.

I would of thought that you guys would say a flat
frequency response is important as well.

Freedom from peaks is very good, but broad ruler-flat anechoic response is
about meaningless, if not detrimental.

Again, looking at a lot of highly-regarded vocal mics for SR, one of the
things that is often absent is either especially flat or especially broad
response. One of the most educational events of my life was recording myself
with an OM-5. The published FR curve of the OM5 reminds me of a
cross-section topographic map of some interesting hills to climb. It also
makes me sound the most like me that I've ever heard. Works well for most
other people, too.

If feedback is a problem, then off-axis response is far more of the essence
of a good SR mic than particularly good on-axis response. And there are even
apparent contradictions there. Most cardioids have far greater maximum
off-axis nulling than most supercardioids or hypercardiods. However,
hypercardioid response and absence of response is directed where its needed.
Less is more when its the lesser evil.

In general, one of the most important thingsabout avoiding feedback in SR is
bass and lower-midrange management. We depend on speakers and mics to be
directional to improve stability margins. However, both speakers and mics
want to be omnidirectional at low frequencies. One of the byproducts of
marginal stability is response boosting. While the electrical response may
be falling off rapidly, the loop response may be rising. Also, vocal mics
are often used up close where they have low end boosting due to proximity
effect.

Finally, IME SR is even more of an art and less of a science than
recording. For example, I had a bass and a tenor that wanted to sing duets,
and I could never get a really good-sounding mix of them going. One day I
realized that a baritone would mix better with a tenor than this basso
profundo would. So, I cranked in some bass cut that was absolutely scary on
paper, but it did indeed turn that bass into a pretty fair baritone. A
good-sounding mix became far easier. Everybody lived happier ever after. ;-)

[Arny Krueger]

"Chris Whealy" wrote in message


(Very) generally speaking Hypercardioid mics tend to give
better GBF results than cardioids or supercardioids.

Having said that, at my church we use a Sanken CMS7 (stereo mic)
positioned
centrally in front of an 80 member choir. It gives excellent GBF, but its
not a hypercardioid!

Aw come on Chris, the CMS-7/9 polar pattern looks like crossed hypercardiods
to me. ;-)

http://www.pss.dk/www/attachments/742/cms-9.pdf

Implementation doesn't matter, performance does.

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark wrote:
On Nov 27, 9:44=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in


genericaudioperson wrote:
Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics
that have a lot of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot"
mic). =A0The TLM-103 throws out a lot of signal compared
to others like it, but it costs $1000. =A0A lot low-priced
large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. =A0Are there any that get north of 20?

Sensitivity has nothing to do with gain before feedback
which is determined by the polar response.

Right. =A0Hypercardiod mics can provide some help.

In the end, the best solution for feedback is good acoustical design.

I would of thought that you guys would say a flat frequency response
is important as well.

The thing is, you need a flat frequency response IN ALL DIRECTIONS. You
can take, say, a U87 which has a weird little low end peak at 120' and
put it on stage and if the mike is pointed in just the right position,
you get feedback at that frequency.

So you want a tight pattern, but you want the frequency response to be
flat and to stay flat once you get off-axis. And if you can't have the
frequency response flat (which is the case in the real world), you want
to avoid narrow sharp peaks in the response.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Chris Whealy]

Arny Krueger wrote:
Aw come on Chris, the CMS-7/9 polar pattern looks like crossed hypercardiods to me. ;-)

http://www.pss.dk/www/attachments/742/cms-9.pdf

And when exactly did you last have your eyes checked?

:-P

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[[email protected]]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned any of the Shure, Audix etc. mics
designed for higher quality(well, higher than you know what), lower
feedback live use. I've personally never done live sound with
Beta57s, Beta58s or Beta87s, but I've seen shows using them and had no
negative impressions about what I was hearing. Well in the OP's price
range and should cut down on feedback substantially.

[George's Pro Sound Company]

when I started my SR business I spent LOTS of time and money looking for the
magic mic or magic box that made feedback go away
some results were better than other but the best resukt I got was EXPERIANCE
and now feedback is never a issue, and I can get obscene volume from almost
any mic , providing it's properly positioned and eq'd
all which is second nature to me at this point
george

[Arny Krueger]

"Chris Whealy" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

Aw come on Chris, the CMS-7/9 polar pattern looks like
crossed hypercardiods to me. ;-)

http://www.pss.dk/www/attachments/742/cms-9.pdf

And when exactly did you last have your eyes checked?

Within the year. So you can't see the similarity? Interesting.

If it helps, the included angle is 120 degrees.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message


I'm surprised no one has mentioned any of the Shure,
Audix etc. mics designed for higher quality(well, higher
than you know what), lower feedback live use.

But I did, about an hour ago.

I've primarily fed from the Audix trough of hypercardioid functionality. I
do have a pair of Samson C01s, which are strangely called cardioid in
everybody's catalog, but the user guide polar pattern shows something more
like a hypercardioid.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 26, 7:46*pm, genericaudioperson
wrote:
Hello,

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot" mic). *The TLM-103 throws out a
lot of signal compared to others like it, but it costs $1000. *A lot
low-priced large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. *Are there any that get north of 20?

Try to find some SM 57s on Ebay or Craig's list. Those are my most
reliable and sturdy mics that I use that have the best GBF.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 27, 11:36*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

But I did, about an hour ago.

Arrg, right you are.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
On Nov 26, 7:46=A0pm, genericaudioperson
wrote:
Hello,

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot" mic). =A0The TLM-103 throws out a
lot of signal compared to others like it, but it costs $1000. =A0A lot
low-priced large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. =A0Are there any that get north of 20?

Try to find some SM 57s on Ebay or Craig's list. Those are my most
reliable and sturdy mics that I use that have the best GBF.

Actually, compare the SM-57 with the comparably-priced AKG D880 or with
the (now discontinued) Sennheiser e855. (Do not confuse the e855 with
the e835 which is a piece of crap.) I think you will be surprised at
how much better you can do than the SM-57 in that price range.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

Arny Krueger wrote:

Right. Hypercardiod mics can provide some help.

As long as the person placing (or holding) the mic understands the polar
pattern and knows where the nulls aren't.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[John Phillips]

Scott Dorsey wrote:


...Actually, compare the SM-57 with the comparably-priced AKG D880 or with
the (now discontinued) Sennheiser e855....
--scott


In looking online, I found the AKG D880M and sometimes the letters mean
things. Is this the same or equivalent mic that you are talking about?

John Phillips

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Scott Dorsey]

John Phillips wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

...Actually, compare the SM-57 with the comparably-priced AKG D880 or with
the (now discontinued) Sennheiser e855....

In looking online, I found the AKG D880M and sometimes the letters mean
things. Is this the same or equivalent mic that you are talking about?

Yes. It's cheap, and often shows up used on Ebay too. It's surprisingly
directional. Huge presence peak, like an SM-57.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[John Phillips]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
John Phillips wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

...Actually, compare the SM-57 with the comparably-priced AKG D880 or with
the (now discontinued) Sennheiser e855....
In looking online, I found the AKG D880M and sometimes the letters mean
things. Is this the same or equivalent mic that you are talking about?

Yes. It's cheap, and often shows up used on Ebay too. It's surprisingly
directional. Huge presence peak, like an SM-57.
--scott


What about the presence peak on the Senn e855? I tent to not prefer huge.

John Phillips




** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
John Phillips wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
John Phillips wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

...Actually, compare the SM-57 with the comparably-priced AKG D880 or with
the (now discontinued) Sennheiser e855....
In looking online, I found the AKG D880M and sometimes the letters mean
things. Is this the same or equivalent mic that you are talking about?

Yes. It's cheap, and often shows up used on Ebay too. It's surprisingly
directional. Huge presence peak, like an SM-57.

What about the presence peak on the Senn e855? I tent to not prefer huge.

It's big but not as big as the AKG.

If you want cheap, excellent pattern control, and no presence boost at all
try the EV N/D 468. It's like a poor man's 441. They are sold primarily as
drum mikes but I have used them on just about everything including vocals.
If you decide you want a presence boost, the EQ is right there on the console.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Nov 26, 10:46*pm, genericaudioperson
wrote:
Hello,

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot" mic). *The TLM-103 throws out a
lot of signal compared to others like it, but it costs $1000. *A lot
low-priced large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. *Are there any that get north of 20?

Shotguns throw out a lot of signal, but are obviously quite
directional. *Nady has a super cheap one for about $40. *But I'm
skeptical of any mic for $40, much less a shotgun. *I don't know of
any shotguns that are good below the Beyerdynamic $380 ones.

As a random question, I'm wondering if the mv/Pa spec is linear or
logarithmic. *For example, I'm guessing a 20mv/Pa will produce 1/3
more signal than a 15mv/Pa one, all else being equal.

This may be a bit off-topic:

If the application includes more than one mic, a Shure automatic mixer
may be of help. Its intelligent design selects the mic with the
highest amplitude (usually the mic nearest to the sound source) and
attenuates all the others plugged into it. It can be VERY effective.

About 10 years ago, I was called upon to redsign the sound system in a
City Council chamber. 14 open microphones in an old marbled hall of
extremely hard reflections. I took a chance on a then-radical design,
and it worked: Two Shure 8-input auto-mixers, ganged together, (plus
the ability of the Clerk to remotely kill or open any mics), some
judicious compression to allow higher gain before feedback, and an eq-
based feedback killer. To my surprise and pleasure, it worked! I got
kudos from the City and all the involved TV-radio people for making an
impossible situation very stable and audible. Still, the key element
was attenuating the "unused" mics- that is, the automatic mixer. Just
thought this might be helpful.

And let me second the comments on shotguns: A great mic for some very
limited uses, where no other mic will do, but very rarely my first
choice.

[genericaudioperson]

Thanks for all the insights, everyone. I learn something new all the
time around here.

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

genericaudioperson wrote:

Hello,

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics that have a lot
of gain before feedback...

A 'peaky' respnse in the forward direction will make a mic somewhat
more prone to feedback, but a peaky response at the back or side will
turn a P.A. job into a howling, screeching nightmare. Often a cheap
electret cardioid in a minimal housing will out-perform an fancy-looking
electret or moving coil mic costing five times as much.

It's easy to test by listening to the mic on headphones and speaking to
front and then the back of it in a fairly dead room. If you start to
hear changes in the voice quality as you turn it, it will almost
certainly give feedback more readily then a mic with a flat response.


(Memories of an early design of radio mic which had an opening between
the back of the capsule and the battery compartment, which worked as a
backwards-facing Helmholz resonator. You got more feedback if you
pointed it away from the speakers than if you pointed it towards them)

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Richard Crowley]

"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
"Chris Whealy" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:

Aw come on Chris, the CMS-7/9 polar pattern looks like
crossed hypercardiods to me. ;-)

http://www.pss.dk/www/attachments/742/cms-9.pdf

And when exactly did you last have your eyes checked?

Within the year. So you can't see the similarity? Interesting.

If it helps, the included angle is 120 degrees.

Looks more like "conventional" cardiod to me.
Can you cite what you think are cardioid and hypercardioid
patterns for comparison?

[Tim Perry]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
. ..
"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
"Chris Whealy" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:

Aw come on Chris, the CMS-7/9 polar pattern looks like
crossed hypercardiods to me. ;-)

http://www.pss.dk/www/attachments/742/cms-9.pdf

And when exactly did you last have your eyes checked?

Within the year. So you can't see the similarity? Interesting.

If it helps, the included angle is 120 degrees.

Looks more like "conventional" cardiod to me.
Can you cite what you think are cardioid and hypercardioid
patterns for comparison?


Take a look at just the dashed line or just the solid line.

[Eeyore]

Mike Rivers wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Right. Hypercardiod mics can provide some help.

As long as the person placing (or holding) the mic understands the polar
pattern and knows where the nulls aren't.

AND doesn't destroy it by 'cupping' the mic !

Graham

[Eeyore]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Nov 27, 9:44=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in
genericaudioperson wrote:

Does anybody know of some lower-priced cardioid mics
that have a lot of gain before feedback (i.e. a "hot"
mic). =A0The TLM-103 throws out a lot of signal compared
to others like it, but it costs $1000. =A0A lot low-priced
large diaphragm condensers seem to throw out about 15mv/
Pa. =A0Are there any that get north of 20?

Sensitivity has nothing to do with gain before feedback
which is determined by the polar response.

Right. =A0Hypercardiod mics can provide some help.

In the end, the best solution for feedback is good acoustical design.

I would of thought that you guys would say a flat frequency response
is important as well.

The thing is, you need a flat frequency response IN ALL DIRECTIONS. You
can take, say, a U87 which has a weird little low end peak at 120' and
put it on stage and if the mike is pointed in just the right position,
you get feedback at that frequency.

So you want a tight pattern, but you want the frequency response to be
flat and to stay flat once you get off-axis. And if you can't have the
frequency response flat (which is the case in the real world), you want
to avoid narrow sharp peaks in the response.

And it would only truly help if the monitor speakers, FOH speakers and room
response were ALL totally flat too.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
"Chris Whealy" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:

Aw come on Chris, the CMS-7/9 polar pattern looks like
crossed hypercardiods to me. ;-)

http://www.pss.dk/www/attachments/742/cms-9.pdf

And when exactly did you last have your eyes checked?

Within the year. So you can't see the similarity? Interesting. If it
helps, the included angle is 120 degrees.

Looks more like "conventional" cardiod to me.
Can you cite what you think are cardioid and hypercardioid
patterns for comparison?

(a) If the null is at 180 degrees, then its more cardioid-like

(b) If there are two nulls at angles that are less than 180 degrees, say 120
degrees, then the mic is more hypercardioid-like.

I look at http://www.pss.dk/www/attachments/742/cms-9.pdf and I see the
patterns of two mics superimposed over each other. One is a solid line, the
other is a dashed line.

If I remove one of those two identical patterns, the remaining pattern does
not have a null at 180 degrees. It does have 2 nulls at +/- 120 degrees.

[Arny Krueger]

"Tim Perry" wrote in
message
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
. ..
"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
"Chris Whealy" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:

Aw come on Chris, the CMS-7/9 polar pattern looks like
crossed hypercardiods to me. ;-)

http://www.pss.dk/www/attachments/742/cms-9.pdf

And when exactly did you last have your eyes checked?

Within the year. So you can't see the similarity?
Interesting.

If it helps, the included angle is 120 degrees.

Looks more like "conventional" cardiod to me.
Can you cite what you think are cardioid and
hypercardioid patterns for comparison?


Take a look at just the dashed line or just the solid
line.

Agreed. This whole subthread has me mystified. It seems so clear - there
are two hypercardioids, splayed at about 120 degrees.

[Eric B]

On Nov 28, 1:32*pm, genericaudioperson
wrote:
Thanks for all the insights, everyone. *I learn something new all the
time around here.

What a bizarre thread! A lot of talk on a topic that is essentially an
improperly asked question. First of all low cost and high gain before
feedback are mutually exclusive. Low budget and good sound quality are
seldom found in the same situation. There are some cheap mics that
aren't too bad. Yah, so! Unless we know what application
genericaudioperson is aiming for the question is meaningless. GBF
usually refers only to live sound and specifically refers to those
situations where you are trying to get as loud as possible. It is
often smarter to think about the shape and smoothness of the on axis
pickup in relation to the shape and smoothness of the off axis
rejection. IE: what can you pick up vs what you can reject. The simple
answer to the question as asked is to look for a cheap differential
mic. With differential mics anything that arrives from anywhere but
right at one side of the mic is rejected by means of phase
cancellation. The trouble is they don't (usually) sound good enough
for anything but voice, They do get very good gain before feedback but
it is hard to use unless you can stay right on top of it.
Feedback is always a resonance. It is always a system issue. A note
rings because there is a peak in the response in some part of a sound
system. If the speaker system is truly flat, which they never are,
then you can get more gain before feedback. If the microphone is
inaccurate then its resonances may be what rings first. Surprisingly
the most important factor in feedback is the physical distance between
the loud speakers and the microphone.
That said, omnis are flattest, and if you can put them physically
where they need to be you can get good gbf, but not the best. All
directional mics get bassy due to the bass proximity effect. You can
reduce that but then sounds from farther away will be very bass light.
Hypercardioids can result in better gbf if the nulls can be
effectively aimed at the speakers- often they can't.
Why can't you just turn down the volume?
Generic- what are you trying to make as loud as possible? If we know
that maybe we can offer more helpful advice.
Best regards,
Eric Blackmer