[genericaudioperson]

Has anybody used these mixers?

I was surprised when I saw them. The 802 resembles the 1202, which is
a good mixer. But man is the 402 small. It reminds me of a cruddy
Behringer whatever midget model.

The form factor on the 402 is so small, I'm having a hard time
believing its not a hiss machine. I'm excited Mackie decided to make
this and hit the $100 price point. But man is this thing small. I
can't imagine how the power supply can be good and how this thing has
adequate transformer isolation.

I took a look at the pictures, and it looks like the 402 and 802 have
a customized power input jack. This leads me to believe they both use
external power supplies. Any thoughts on this? I know the 1202 uses
an internal power supply and its a solid mixer for the money. The
external (?) power supplies make me wonder if the 402 and 802 really
produce the same signal quality results as the 1202.

If these boards really do perform sonically identical to the 1202 (but
with less inputs/outputs and signal routing) then that's amazing. But
if it's a trade-off on signal-to-noise, hiss, linearity, distortion,
headroom and slew rates, then that's really more trouble than it's
worth.

[Mike Rivers]

genericaudioperson wrote:

The form factor on the 402 is so small, I'm having a hard time
believing its not a hiss machine. I'm excited Mackie decided to make
this and hit the $100 price point. But man is this thing small. I
can't imagine how the power supply can be good and how this thing has
adequate transformer isolation.

Size has nothing to do with hiss. It's small because it doesn't have
many inputs, outputs, or controls. The power supply is external and is
as good as any other Chinese line lump. It has a locking connector which
takes it a step above your usual easy-to-pull-out coaxial power plug.
There are no input or output transformers, not on this model, not on any
Mackie mixer.

I have one and use it on my workbench when I need a mic preamp or a line
level output. It's not likely that many of these will get used as band
PA mixers, but it's a fine front and back end for a desktop DAW setup
for recording from one or two mics. The preamps are the standard VLZ3
series (XDR2, I think they call it) and it sounds just like a 1604 VLZ3
without all the EQ, inputs, and outputs.

It's very solidly built and it's just fine if it suits your needs as a
mixer. But look closely to be sure it's not missing anything you need,
like pan pots, for instance. There's a switch that lets you send one
input to both outputs (like panning one mic to the center) or send one
mic to the left output and the other to the right output. That's as
fancy as it gets. Mackie makes a lot of different mixers, each one more
appropriate for something than the others. The trick, if you don't want
to spend the money for a fully featured mixer, is to pick out the one
that leave off things you don't need, but has things you do need.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[genericaudioperson]

Thanks for your insights, Mr. Rivers.

You know a lot more about the internal workings of electronics than I
do. I was thinking there might be a drop in signal quality between
the 1202VLZ3 and the smaller 802 and 402 models. This is because the
1202VLZ3 has an internal power supply. But you don't see a difference
in performance (other than less channels and less routing, etc.)?

This is for a minimalist setup to support a mostly acoustic sound
output.

[Mike Rivers]

genericaudioperson wrote:

I was thinking there might be a drop in signal quality between
the 1202VLZ3 and the smaller 802 and 402 models. This is because the
1202VLZ3 has an internal power supply.

That's not entirely a bogus concept - the power supply is an important
part of the design of any piece of electronic equipment. An inadequate
power supply can indeed degrade the performance. But it doesn't matter
whether the power supply is internal or external as long as it provides
enough power, proper isolation from the power line, and proper grounding
for whatever it's powering. My experience with these mixers is that the
external power supply is just fine. I think it's less convenient than an
internal power supply, but then it's less expensive, too, which allows
the company to sell the unit for less money.

This is for a minimalist setup to support a mostly acoustic sound
output.

It will do fine.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[genericaudioperson]

I think there is a rule that if you have an internal power supply, you
have to pay $20 or $30k to have United Laboratories certify the device
for safety. But if you use an external supply, you can simply use an
off-the-shelf box and do not require the certification. So in lower-
priced models (less margin), the manufucturer would want to avoid the
certification fee. I heard something vaguely like this, but I could
be completely off. It's an interesting piece of information that I'm
curious is true or not.

[Mike Rivers]

genericaudioperson wrote:

I think there is a rule that if you have an internal power supply, you
have to pay $20 or $30k to have United Laboratories certify the device
for safety. But if you use an external supply, you can simply use an
off-the-shelf box and do not require the certification.

It's sort of like that. The device with the AC power plug on it has to
be safety certified. In Europe, it's CE, and that's even more stringent
than UL. So if they buy an already-certified external power supply that
has a sufficiently low voltage output, then this saves the manufacturer
money. Another advantage of an external power supply for analog audio
products is that it gets the transformers away from the innards where it
could induce hum. Still, some decide to use an internal power supply
because they think it makes a better product.

It's true that you're likely to find an external power supply in a low
priced product, but the $300 Behringer mixer I recently reviewed had an
internal power supply. It's a choice the manufacturer has to make. Part
of that choice is ergonomics, part is perception, and part is cost.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote...
genericaudioperson wrote:
I think there is a rule that if you have an internal power supply, you
have to pay $20 or $30k to have United Laboratories certify the device
for safety. But if you use an external supply, you can simply use an
off-the-shelf box and do not require the certification.

It's sort of like that. The device with the AC power plug on it has to be
safety certified. In Europe, it's CE, and that's even more stringent than
UL. So if they buy an already-certified external power supply that has a
sufficiently low voltage output, then this saves the manufacturer money.
Another advantage of an external power supply for analog audio products is
that it gets the transformers away from the innards where it could induce
hum. Still, some decide to use an internal power supply because they think
it makes a better product.

It's true that you're likely to find an external power supply in a low
priced product, but the $300 Behringer mixer I recently reviewed had an
internal power supply. It's a choice the manufacturer has to make. Part of
that choice is ergonomics, part is perception, and part is cost.

Not to mention that very high-end mixers (and other high end equipment)
often use external power supplies for other reasons (such as space
utilization, heat/noise management, etc. etc.)

Another factor is globalization. If you want to make your product
attractive to anyone on the planet, an easy way to accommodate the
various mains power standards (and the various certifications as
you mentioned) is to use a pre-certified external PS which either
is made specifically for 100/120/240V and 50Hz/60Hz, or one
which automatically accommodates all the variations (typically the
more contemporary switchmode power supplies, etc.)

Here is one manufacturer's explanation for your amusement...
http://www.fmraudio.com/FAQ.htm#question1