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#41
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Directed Amplifiers
"Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... John here's a pic of the 2150M snip Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 about a bazillion other amps. Seriously. It's got fins, and the middle is flat.. NEVER seen an amp that looked anything remotely like that, EVER narcolept ----- /sarcasm off In article , John Durbin wrote: dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with Orion. The two were different companies up until the very late 90's. Also, the 2150M isn't an Art model. Orion never made an amp with no fins, ever. JD I'm not the 100% expert on that period of the two company's histories mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" in it has been totally boofoo |
#42
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Directed Amplifiers
John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But
they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? |
#44
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Directed Amplifiers
maybe a tad like some Crossfire models also... there are only so many
ways you can trim out a conventional heat sink design like that. JD Captain Howdy wrote: John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. In article , John Durbin wrote: What the hell would we want to do that for? Product cloning is for pussies, and we were shipping the Directed amps before we even bought ADST. At least, the PCB designs - the mechanical design changed in 2002 at CES which was a month and half after the acquisition. But I'm not offended, it's a very common misconception. I am however thinking you haven't ever looked very close at any PCB's for the three brands in question. Actually, if you want to know the real story, we paid a top industrial designer for both the Directed and the Viper amps mechanicals that year... but Viper was having its big launch so we intentionally dialed back the Directed to a more conservative look so Viper would be the attention-getter. JD Captain Howdy wrote: I can see spending more time in the insides the outsides, fitting an Orion or PPI mainboard into an Alpine case is not an easy task. In article , John Durbin wrote: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090001030608000608000608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit could have something to do with us having spent more on the insides than the outsides, too... JD or not Paul Vina wrote: |
#45
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Directed Amplifiers
Very sure, granted they share the white paint job and mural, but the
innards and the extrusion are not the same at all. At least not identical at all - they probably share some design topology similarities and parts selection - the PPI at least, The Orion is still going to be more different yet. One thing I can tell you for sure, the GX used complimentary bipolar transistors for the power supply (2N6488, 2N6490 pairs - something like that) where the 2150M used MOSFET's - hence the "M" in the model number. On the Orion, look specifically at the broad, fly-cut aluminum strips on the heat sink. Now look at the 2150M - see how the fins end without that wide section as they reach the center low area? Totally different extrusions. Other than the (fairly common) placement and size of the fins, and the center area that's left flat so you can put some markings on the heat sink, these are not that similar. I can see why you would think there's a connection - there is, but it's not what you thought, it's the shared heritage and history of amplifier design and manufacturing in the Valley of the Sun. A lot of stuff looked more similar back then - nowadays it's a much more cutthroat market and you can't get anyone excited with generic looking product. JD Captain Howdy wrote: John here's a pic of the 2150M http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 797 Here's a pic of the Art Series http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 Are you sure the 2150M isn't an Art model? Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 In article , John Durbin wrote: dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with Orion. The two were different companies up until the very late 90's. Also, the 2150M isn't an Art model. Orion never made an amp with no fins, ever. JD I'm not the 100% expert on that period of the two company's histories mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" in it has been totally boofoo |
#46
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Directed Amplifiers
thanks for filling in the detail on that, Scott - you have a clearer
picture of that part of the PPI chronology than I do. JD Scott Gardner wrote: On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:06:14 GMT, (Captain Howdy) wrote: John here's a pic of the 2150M http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 797 Here's a pic of the Art Series http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 Are you sure the 2150M isn't an Art model? Well, it has the same type of graphics as the later "Art" series. I had a PPI 4100AM that looked just like it. It's just a semantic issue - I don't think they weren't officially called the "Art Series" by PPI until the A100, A200 etcetera came out, but I remember calling my 4100AM an "Art Series" at the time, so I think the name was around informally before PPI actually began to use it as a series name. In the PPI lineage, the "M" series begat the "AM" series, begat the "Art" series, begat the "PC" begat the "PCX". So, while you could buy a 4100AM with the white paint and multi-colour silkscreened graphics in 1991 (like I did), you couldn't buy an official "Art Series" PPI amp until 1993, when the equivalent to the 4100AM would have been called the A204. Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 It looks similar, but the heatsink fins are actually shaped differently. All they have in common is the "fins on top, fins on bottom, finless strip down the middle" design, and that was a fairly common scheme at the time. Here's an auction with a good end-view of a PPI 2075 (same chassis style as the 2150M and 4100AM) http://tinyurl.com/y0z6 Look at the seven fins above the "finless strip" and the seven fins below. They're all the same height, and they're all parallel, both lengthwise and widthwise. You could lay a straightedge across the amp and it would touch all fourteen of those fins at the same time. This auction has a good end-view of an Orion GX: http://tinyurl.com/y0yw See how the fins aren't the same height? They're shorter next to the "finless strip" and get taller as they proceed to the edge of the amp. So yes, the older "M" and "AM" amps did look superficially similar to the Orion GX and HCCA amps, but they weren't the same heatsinks. Scot Gardner In article , John Durbin wrote: dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with Orion. The two were different companies up until the very late 90's. Also, the 2150M isn't an Art model. Orion never made an amp with no fins, ever. JD I'm not the 100% expert on that period of the two company's histories mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" in it has been totally boofoo |
#47
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Directed Amplifiers
In article , John Durbin wrote:
Very sure, granted they share the white paint job and mural, but the innards and the extrusion are not the same at all. At least not identical at all - they probably share some design topology similarities and parts selection - the PPI at least, The Orion is still going to be more different yet. One thing I can tell you for sure, the GX used complimentary bipolar transistors for the power supply (2N6488, 2N6490 pairs - something like that) where the 2150M used MOSFET's - hence the "M" in the model number. You are 100% correct, non of the Orion GX stuff was mosfet, it was all bi-polar. On the Orion, look specifically at the broad, fly-cut aluminum strips on the heat sink. Now look at the 2150M - see how the fins end without that wide section as they reach the center low area? Totally different extrusions. Other than the (fairly common) placement and size of the fins, and the center area that's left flat so you can put some markings on the heat sink, these are not that similar. I see your point there. I can see why you would think there's a connection - there is, but it's not what you thought, it's the shared heritage and history of amplifier design and manufacturing in the Valley of the Sun. A lot of stuff looked more similar back then - nowadays it's a much more cutthroat market and you can't get anyone excited with generic looking product. JD Captain Howdy wrote: John here's a pic of the 2150M http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 797 Here's a pic of the Art Series http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 Are you sure the 2150M isn't an Art model? Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 In article , John Durbin wrote: dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with Orion. The two were different companies up until the very late 90's. Also, the 2150M isn't an Art model. Orion never made an amp with no fins, ever. JD I'm not the 100% expert on that period of the two company's histories mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" in it has been totally boofoo |
#48
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Directed Amplifiers
For some reason he can't seem to grasp that concept.
Paul Vina "narcolept" wrote in message . .. "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... John here's a pic of the 2150M snip Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 about a bazillion other amps. Seriously. It's got fins, and the middle is flat.. NEVER seen an amp that looked anything remotely like that, EVER narcolept ----- /sarcasm off In article , John Durbin wrote: dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with Orion. The two were different companies up until the very late 90's. Also, the 2150M isn't an Art model. Orion never made an amp with no fins, ever. JD I'm not the 100% expert on that period of the two company's histories mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" in it has been totally boofoo |
#49
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Directed Amplifiers
"Paul Vina" wrote in message news:NXvAb.443324$HS4.3492824@attbi_s01... For some reason he can't seem to grasp that concept. Paul Vina it seems like there are SEVERAL concepts that he doesn't grasp.... narcolept -------- like the concept of thinking. "narcolept" wrote in message . .. "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... John here's a pic of the 2150M snip Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 about a bazillion other amps. Seriously. It's got fins, and the middle is flat.. NEVER seen an amp that looked anything remotely like that, EVER narcolept ----- /sarcasm off In article , John Durbin wrote: dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with Orion. The two were different companies up until the very late 90's. Also, the 2150M isn't an Art model. Orion never made an amp with no fins, ever. JD I'm not the 100% expert on that period of the two company's histories mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" in it has been totally boofoo |
#50
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Directed Amplifiers
ok, THAT was funny!! LMAO!
Paul Vina "sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message ... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? |
#51
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Directed Amplifiers
You guys are killin' me tonight!
Paul Vina "narcolept" wrote in message . .. "Paul Vina" wrote in message news:NXvAb.443324$HS4.3492824@attbi_s01... For some reason he can't seem to grasp that concept. Paul Vina it seems like there are SEVERAL concepts that he doesn't grasp.... narcolept -------- like the concept of thinking. "narcolept" wrote in message . .. "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... John here's a pic of the 2150M snip Here's a pic of a Orion GX amplifier, what does that remind you of? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=18 796 about a bazillion other amps. Seriously. It's got fins, and the middle is flat.. NEVER seen an amp that looked anything remotely like that, EVER narcolept ----- /sarcasm off In article , John Durbin wrote: dude, where do you get this stuff?!! Anyone who has ever had their hands on them knows that Art Series had absolutely nothing in common with Orion. The two were different companies up until the very late 90's. Also, the 2150M isn't an Art model. Orion never made an amp with no fins, ever. JD I'm not the 100% expert on that period of the two company's histories mind you but everything you've written so far that has "Orion" or "PPI" in it has been totally boofoo |
#52
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Directed Amplifiers
the sancho... just when you think he's dead, he pops up on the comedy
circuit JD Paul Vina wrote: ok, THAT was funny!! LMAO! Paul Vina "sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message ... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? |
#53
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Directed Amplifiers
He does have a gift...
-- John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ "Paul Vina" wrote in message news:HbBAb.449337$Tr4.1253337@attbi_s03... ok, THAT was funny!! LMAO! Paul Vina "sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message ... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? |
#54
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Directed Amplifiers
On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 07:38:00 GMT, John Durbin
wrote: The GX heat sink was not the same as the PPI model you're talking about. It was wider, and flatter. They did at some point make Orion amps that were taller, not as wide, and longer - The Beast for example - but still not the same metal. Again, at the time you're talking, these were two separate companies. PPI did do some contract manufacturing for a couple of companies - Crutchfield and Phillips USA as I recall - but they never built for Orion. In fact, if you know any of the people from either organization, I think they'd have died before they shared any designs or parts. yeah they did contract work. I had a couple Phillips Sound Labs amps from them at one time....thye also made some crossover models for them as well.... As to the RCA's and the socket-head Allen bolts, give me a break already... if the most you can say to prove your point is that they bought from the same parts supplier. or picked the same connector out of a catalog, you're grasping at straws. I can buy the same bolts today - in fact, I have a few boxes sitting in my garage - from local bolt suppliers like Ababa. They were used by virtually everybody that was bolting products like this together in the US back then. My old Zapco's use them and so did Audiomobile. As to the DIN plug, the commonality is that both companies have a common ancestry dating back to Jim Fosgate, and some people that learned a lot about amps from him in the early days of the Phoenix car audio explosion. He had phantom power DIN cable designs to drive outboard processors as early as 1977 - I had two of them in my VW Rabbit at the time. So yes, both companies used phantom power for their processors for several years. Big whoop... JD Captain Howdy wrote: In article eZnzb.411468$Fm2.417582@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: I'm I on crack?, no. Very good and thank for the history lession. Take a good look, and I mean I good look at the PPi-2150M and Orion GX line of amplifiers. The heatsinks are the same, the end plates and even the screws are the same, further more the The RCA connectors are the same. Hey is that a DIN plug on the side of the PPi-2150M for a bridging module, you know like the one on the Orion Gx line? Are you on crack? PPI and Orion were two separate companies until ADST bought them both. Even then the designs were still separate. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message . .. You're right. I dont see nothing wrong with a little bit of the retro look.You thought that I would point that out. Just like back in the day When PPI repainted Orion GX amplifiers and sold them as the PPI art searies, such as the PPi-2150M In article dcdzb.287021$ao4.1001827@attbi_s51, "Paul Vina" wrote: Maybe like old Alpines. They look nothing like the current Alpines. Not that there's anything wrong with that. A bunch of amps looked just like that in the early and mid 90's. Paul Vina "Captain Howdy" wrote in message . .. I just seen the 2003 Directed amplifiers at their website. I hate to say it, but they look like Alpine V12 knock-offs. Stephen Narayan | IASCA Pro Street 1-600 | IASCA Certified Judge 2003 Audio Perfection | No System.....yup that's right. Why not check out my car audio museum http://canuck.audioguy.net/gear.html |
#55
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Directed Amplifiers
sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message
... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? Actually, I always thought PPI amps resembled the photon torpedos from Star Trek... |
#56
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Directed Amplifiers
interesting ... wait'll you see the new stuff :-)
JD Daniel Ruiz wrote: sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message ... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? Actually, I always thought PPI amps resembled the photon torpedos from Star Trek... |
#57
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Directed Amplifiers
oh boy.. can't wait, whooo hoooo....
FHLH.... can I have my black and silver Directed amps back? "John Durbin" wrote in message ... interesting ... wait'll you see the new stuff :-) JD Daniel Ruiz wrote: sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message ... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? Actually, I always thought PPI amps resembled the photon torpedos from Star Trek... |
#58
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Directed Amplifiers
sure, if you send me tree-fitty...
JD fhlh002 wrote: oh boy.. can't wait, whooo hoooo.... FHLH.... can I have my black and silver Directed amps back? "John Durbin" wrote in message ... interesting ... wait'll you see the new stuff :-) JD Daniel Ruiz wrote: sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message ... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? Actually, I always thought PPI amps resembled the photon torpedos from Star Trek... |
#59
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Directed Amplifiers
Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK
You are completely remiss in your assertions. I have worked with and for PPI for most of its real existance in car audio. I can unequivocably tell you that PPI never bought ORION Heatsinks and repainted them. Back then, almost all amplifiers had the same look. Square, with fins. They may be similar, but they were not the same. Regarding the Phaze Audio claim, you are once again incorrect. The original owners of PPI ( a brother and sister ) sold to a gentleman from Indiana who was also the owner of Phaze Audio LLC. The selling price was over double the then current value of PPI. Phaze Audio LLC made a few thousand amplifiers on their own prior to buying PPI in 1998. They dropped their current product lines and continued with the PPI products as they were better designed, manufacturing friendly and had decent profit margins. You got it backwards, Phaze Audio LLC did business under the PPI brand names. Their own products fell by the wayside. Poor management and unproven embezzlement led to the demise of Phaze Audio LLC DBA PPI. ADST purchased the remaining assets and brand name of PPI. Phaze Audio went the way of the Dodo. The PPI product lines under ADST management made up almost 75% of ADST sales. But, once again upper management would not listen to reason and spent far too much time, effort and monies on trying to make their money losing brands profitable again. Even the PPI brands suffered when really poor Engineering decisions were made by NON-Engineers and managers who had inflated ego's and no common sense. The owner of ADST trusted these people and believed their lies and half truths. Most of these trusted few resigned or were fired when it was discovered that they had created a house of cards. By that time it was too late and ADST Inc was sold to DEI. DEI still makes the PPI line of Amplifiers and some Signal processors, but IMHO they cannot hold a candle to the originals. They are now made overseas by a company that makes many brands of amplifiers for many other companies. If you want an inkling as to the popularity of the new PPI lines, visit Ebay and check out just how many people are bidding on the PCX series amplifiers offered there. Then, check out the bidding on the older models such as the Art Series and the M an AM series. QED BTW there was only one "ART" series. Those are the PPI amplifiers whose names begin with "A". The "M" series was PPI first line of amplifiers using MOSFETS in their power supply. The "AM" series was an improved version of the "M" series. The White w/Graphics and Black w/graphics were simply mid-design cycle changes to promote sales, much like the PPI Powerclass line and the subsequent chrome version of the same. p.s If you look closely on an ART series amplifier, you will find the initials CHY. The artist name is/was Carolyn Hall Young. John Andreen Captain Howdy wrote: Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. In article xcyzb.416545$Fm2.424716@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina |
#60
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Directed Amplifiers
John Andreen wrote:
Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK All Hail Prince of the Obvious -- Lizard |
#61
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Directed Amplifiers
JA,
Thanks for the history update. However, I would love to hear your explanation of how PPI product has somehow deteriorated since we made the ADST acquisition. Here are some facts: * The PCB assembly was already being imported * The final assembly was conducted under no recognized global or US quality system standard * The company was chronically short on cash and forced to make decisions that constantly affected product quality * Return rates on product were becoming a growing problem * Precision Power had themselves already gone offshore to bring in a lower end amp line, as well as ALL of their speakers, and subs * Since the acquisition, Directed has done the following: o Eliminated a slew of problems in the original PCX design, including failure to make power, higher than speced THD+N, etc. etc. None of the original topology was altered in the process, and that topology dates back to Art series or before. PowerClass amps were not much more than Art series circuits with an added crossover and new mechanical design. o Replaced the problematic transistor clamping method that PPI had used for years with one that actually prevents transistors from overheating regularly o Spent the better part of 2002 buying back ADST-built defectives from dealers so they'd continue to support the brand - and a bunch of consumers too o Moved production to ISO9000 certified facilities o Brought R&D and development under our own ISO9000 and QS9000 quality system guidelines o Ditched the crappy C1/C2 subs and replaced them with considerably higher performance, higher quality PowerClass line o Added the US designed and engineered DCX subs and neo component/coax series - getting PPI back into the premium sub/speaker business for the first time since the Phaze speakers and flat piston Pro subs went away. If you stop by our booth at CES in January, you can get a look at the next phase of the revival of this fine brand - a completely new amp family. You'll also see a couple of new processors, a new line of PowerClass speakers, and while you're there, say hello to Roger Paeselt, former VP Sales for PPI - he's stayed with us through the transition and will be the first to tell you that things have gotten a LOT better. I'm old myself - been kicking around 12V since 1977 - and I love old school as much as the next guy. But anyone that tells you the old stuff was better in this case hasn't got a freaking clue. Also, you really need to get over the country of origin hang-up - the names of companies much bigger and better known in audio than us are everywhere in Asia these days... consumer electronics is a global business, and consumers always want more for less. And, something that people rarely understand but anyone that has ever been a product manager in this business learned in the last few years: the factories in Asia will jump through hoops to produce your latest design, and make it work right. The factories in the US take 2-3 times as long, aren't interested in tooling new parts to meet your spec, and frankly don't compete on price, delivery, or any of the critical areas for being an OEM. John Durbin Audio Product Category Manager Directed Electronics Inc. aka JD John Andreen wrote: Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK You are completely remiss in your assertions. I have worked with and for PPI for most of its real existance in car audio. I can unequivocably tell you that PPI never bought ORION Heatsinks and repainted them. Back then, almost all amplifiers had the same look. Square, with fins. They may be similar, but they were not the same. Regarding the Phaze Audio claim, you are once again incorrect. The original owners of PPI ( a brother and sister ) sold to a gentleman from Indiana who was also the owner of Phaze Audio LLC. The selling price was over double the then current value of PPI. Phaze Audio LLC made a few thousand amplifiers on their own prior to buying PPI in 1998. They dropped their current product lines and continued with the PPI products as they were better designed, manufacturing friendly and had decent profit margins. You got it backwards, Phaze Audio LLC did business under the PPI brand names. Their own products fell by the wayside. Poor management and unproven embezzlement led to the demise of Phaze Audio LLC DBA PPI. ADST purchased the remaining assets and brand name of PPI. Phaze Audio went the way of the Dodo. The PPI product lines under ADST management made up almost 75% of ADST sales. But, once again upper management would not listen to reason and spent far too much time, effort and monies on trying to make their money losing brands profitable again. Even the PPI brands suffered when really poor Engineering decisions were made by NON-Engineers and managers who had inflated ego's and no common sense. The owner of ADST trusted these people and believed their lies and half truths. Most of these trusted few resigned or were fired when it was discovered that they had created a house of cards. By that time it was too late and ADST Inc was sold to DEI. DEI still makes the PPI line of Amplifiers and some Signal processors, but IMHO they cannot hold a candle to the originals. They are now made overseas by a company that makes many brands of amplifiers for many other companies. If you want an inkling as to the popularity of the new PPI lines, visit Ebay and check out just how many people are bidding on the PCX series amplifiers offered there. Then, check out the bidding on the older models such as the Art Series and the M an AM series. QED BTW there was only one "ART" series. Those are the PPI amplifiers whose names begin with "A". The "M" series was PPI first line of amplifiers using MOSFETS in their power supply. The "AM" series was an improved version of the "M" series. The White w/Graphics and Black w/graphics were simply mid-design cycle changes to promote sales, much like the PPI Powerclass line and the subsequent chrome version of the same. p.s If you look closely on an ART series amplifier, you will find the initials CHY. The artist name is/was Carolyn Hall Young. John Andreen Captain Howdy wrote: Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. In article xcyzb.416545$Fm2.424716@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina |
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So what you really mean is that PPI never bought Orion heats sinks, they just
coped their design, since Orion was a big seller in those days. The "M" series art work sure looks like the same art works they used on the art series. But then again PPI amps still all look the same from the PC series to now. The PC series four channel amps were ruined thanks to their uneven crossover between front and rear channels that was mounted in the amp via header pins . The PCX series totally sucked ass, even if your were lucky enough to get one that worked new out of the box. I do agree that the art series was the last decent line of amps that PPI produced to date. No one sells DEI gear around here, other then their overpriced alarms, nor have I used any of their gear other then their overpriced alarms. Maybe if PPI made half of the advances that MTX made to their amps over the years, they still be as popular as they once were. That's my two cents. |
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You're one to talk. In article , thelizman thelizman1221.yahoo@com wrote: John Andreen wrote: Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK All Hail Prince of the Obvious |
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No one sells DEI gear around here,
other then their overpriced alarms, nor have I used any of their gear other then their overpriced alarms. Too bad. You don't know what your missing. I have been using Directed Audio in my own vehicles since there was a Directed Audio (OK, it was DEI Audio back then). I've never heared anyone say a bad thing about them. Maybe if PPI made half of the advances that MTX made to their amps over the years, they still be as popular as they once were. Advances like what? -- John Spagnolo - teamROCS #016 Multi Media Xpress Car Audio www.mmxpress.com "It's about the music stupid!" John "Batvette" Lucier 98' R.A.C. FAQ: http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/ JL Audio Tech Section: http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials MMXpress Tech Section: http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/ "Captain Howdy" wrote in message ... So what you really mean is that PPI never bought Orion heats sinks, they just coped their design, since Orion was a big seller in those days. The "M" series art work sure looks like the same art works they used on the art series. But then again PPI amps still all look the same from the PC series to now. The PC series four channel amps were ruined thanks to their uneven crossover between front and rear channels that was mounted in the amp via header pins . The PCX series totally sucked ass, even if your were lucky enough to get one that worked new out of the box. I do agree that the art series was the last decent line of amps that PPI produced to date. No one sells DEI gear around here, other then their overpriced alarms, nor have I used any of their gear other then their overpriced alarms. Maybe if PPI made half of the advances that MTX made to their amps over the years, they still be as popular as they once were. That's my two cents. |
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Surface mount technology. Isolated mainboard, isolating the
power supply, amp channels, crossover, gains and inputs to it's own cells reducing the size of the mainboard resulting in a smaller amplifier foot print over poke through technology. Also producing a much cleaner look eliminating jumper wires and power rails. Have you looked inside a PPI amplifier lately? Lets not forget about my favorite MTX amplifier advance in their class D line, The compression circuit, protecting the subwoofer during amplifier clipping at high volume levels compressing peak spikes. The only thing that I would add is a adjustable compression ratio. Advances like what? |
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Hey John,
If you are saying that either James T, Bill T, Sean D, or Roger P have any real idea on these issue's, then let's all hear from them. I know you won't as I am indeed "calling your bluff" James T hasn't got a clue about anything except how to make something cheaper ( and with less quality ). Bill T might have some idea about Orion, but when pressed, he didn't even know what the filter cut-off slope was for an Orion product. There is nothing Sean D can add because it is 100% clueless. Roger P is perhaps the one shining star, at least for the PPI products as he began his career with PPI sanding raw heatsinks in preparation for subsequent paint and silkscreen. Ask him. John Andreen John Durbin wrote: No they weren't ... they have been buying heat sinks from outside suppliers for many years. Many of them that would love to collect what they were owed on the several occasions one company or the other in Phoenix stiffed them. Do you even remember wht Art series looked like? It has no fins, a triangular shape at one edge and a circular roll at the opposite edge. The top cover was white painted steel with pretty pictures painted on it. I defy you to find me an Orion that has EVER looked like that. The original GX amps had the same heat sink as the original HCCA, predated them actually ... I know, I became an authorized dealer for the brand in 1987. The GX were black with silver machined accent strips, and the HCCA were a dark red with the same machined strips. They both used phantom power DIN inputs, although RCA's were provided for use when you weren't driving them with an Orion processor. There is a later GX mechanical design, before it became the SX series and later Extreme stuff. At the timethe GX came out, PPI was making such models as the 4030, 2075, that kind of stuff. They migrated to the longer, skinny models not long afterwards - like the big surfboard stuff - 2200, 2350, those kind of critters. When the Art series came out, it changed the mechanical look 100% and was very different than anything anyone else in the US was making or would make, before being replaced itself by the first-gen PowerClass models in 1987. You are simly wrong in what you're saying - and I will be glad to have one of the two surviving vice presidents of Orion and Precision Power, or their amplifier parts procurement manager, all of whom I work with daily, confirm that you're wrong. Or, you could just let it go. JD Captain Howdy wrote: Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. In article xcyzb.416545$Fm2.424716@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina |
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You go girl!!!
I wish you would have been invited/asked to purchase PPI from PHAZE LLC and not ADST. Perhaps things might have turned out different. Sigh John Andreen AZSPL wrote: In late 1997 or early 1998 - Ted Guenther and his sister, who owned PPI sold the company to Phase Audio. PPI came under the direction of Phase Audio and was shortly broke. From there it was sold to Orion/Ads and then on to Directed Electronics. In its original state - PPI had good products and an excellent reputation. Directed is huge and has the ability to revive PPI given time. Alma Gates www.teamgates.org |
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Daniel Ruiz wrote:
sancho" tR-003.at.ev1.dot.net wrote in message ... John, I know their not a clone, I just wanted to hear your 2 cents. But they do look like the older Apline V12's. ppi amps look like mufflers... does that make them mufflers? -- sancho the **** did i put that tylenol? Actually, I always thought PPI amps resembled the photon torpedos from Star Trek... Rumor has it, that those in Engineering at ADST just before the DEI purchase called the new ORION amplifier design "Spock's Coffin" John Andreen |
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John you are mostly correct about your assertion below. You are however
misinformed about the clamping method that PPI had been using since just about day one of their existence. That method only failed on the PCX line of amplifiers that were produced at ADST Inc. Up until that time, the material callout for the steel bottom/hang-off clamp was specified as an ASTM grade that was meant to have a "springy" characteristic ( read carbon content) and holes were used to hold the clamping screws in place. When the ME at ADST ( his name was Chris C ) and the then VP of Engineering Enrique S, came up with an idea of using an extruded groove to capture the clamping screws instead, all clamping ability was lost. Now, ignoring studies and objections to the contrary, this method was put into production. Any MORON can grasp the fact that a round hole ( of proper diameter )can handle much more shear stress than a groove of similar proportions. Roughly 6 times more to be exact. That is where the failure of the original clamping method occurred. The original PPI clamping was extremely successful and would still work today if properly implimented. The Topology lineage you speak of only begins at the ART series. Much was changed between the AM series and the ART series. If you were to review the schematics, you would know that. You could also contact Bruce McMillan(sp?) at JL AUDIO for a short discourse on the differences, though he may not wish to talk with the enemy. Failure rates in the field were never over 1-2% at the original PPI. Gee, I guess they did follow some form of quality control standards. Failure rates when James T took the production of the PPI PCB's offshore were right around 4%. A 100% increase in field failure. Failure rates on the PCX line produced at ADST were as high as 47%, almost 1 in 2. Bad by any stretch of the imagination. It is easy to be able to brag about being able to better your quality control when you reference the ADST/PPI PCX series. Can you state and prove that your failure rates now are at or below 1-2%? Don't believe me, ask Roger. John Andreen John Durbin wrote: JA, Thanks for the history update. However, I would love to hear your explanation of how PPI product has somehow deteriorated since we made the ADST acquisition. Here are some facts: * The PCB assembly was already being imported * The final assembly was conducted under no recognized global or US quality system standard * The company was chronically short on cash and forced to make decisions that constantly affected product quality * Return rates on product were becoming a growing problem * Precision Power had themselves already gone offshore to bring in a lower end amp line, as well as ALL of their speakers, and subs * Since the acquisition, Directed has done the following: o Eliminated a slew of problems in the original PCX design, including failure to make power, higher than speced THD+N, etc. etc. None of the original topology was altered in the process, and that topology dates back to Art series or before. PowerClass amps were not much more than Art series circuits with an added crossover and new mechanical design. o Replaced the problematic transistor clamping method that PPI had used for years with one that actually prevents transistors from overheating regularly o Spent the better part of 2002 buying back ADST-built defectives from dealers so they'd continue to support the brand - and a bunch of consumers too o Moved production to ISO9000 certified facilities o Brought R&D and development under our own ISO9000 and QS9000 quality system guidelines o Ditched the crappy C1/C2 subs and replaced them with considerably higher performance, higher quality PowerClass line o Added the US designed and engineered DCX subs and neo component/coax series - getting PPI back into the premium sub/speaker business for the first time since the Phaze speakers and flat piston Pro subs went away. If you stop by our booth at CES in January, you can get a look at the next phase of the revival of this fine brand - a completely new amp family. You'll also see a couple of new processors, a new line of PowerClass speakers, and while you're there, say hello to Roger Paeselt, former VP Sales for PPI - he's stayed with us through the transition and will be the first to tell you that things have gotten a LOT better. I'm old myself - been kicking around 12V since 1977 - and I love old school as much as the next guy. But anyone that tells you the old stuff was better in this case hasn't got a freaking clue. Also, you really need to get over the country of origin hang-up - the names of companies much bigger and better known in audio than us are everywhere in Asia these days... consumer electronics is a global business, and consumers always want more for less. And, something that people rarely understand but anyone that has ever been a product manager in this business learned in the last few years: the factories in Asia will jump through hoops to produce your latest design, and make it work right. The factories in the US take 2-3 times as long, aren't interested in tooling new parts to meet your spec, and frankly don't compete on price, delivery, or any of the critical areas for being an OEM. John Durbin Audio Product Category Manager Directed Electronics Inc. aka JD John Andreen wrote: Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK You are completely remiss in your assertions. I have worked with and for PPI for most of its real existance in car audio. I can unequivocably tell you that PPI never bought ORION Heatsinks and repainted them. Back then, almost all amplifiers had the same look. Square, with fins. They may be similar, but they were not the same. Regarding the Phaze Audio claim, you are once again incorrect. The original owners of PPI ( a brother and sister ) sold to a gentleman from Indiana who was also the owner of Phaze Audio LLC. The selling price was over double the then current value of PPI. Phaze Audio LLC made a few thousand amplifiers on their own prior to buying PPI in 1998. They dropped their current product lines and continued with the PPI products as they were better designed, manufacturing friendly and had decent profit margins. You got it backwards, Phaze Audio LLC did business under the PPI brand names. Their own products fell by the wayside. Poor management and unproven embezzlement led to the demise of Phaze Audio LLC DBA PPI. ADST purchased the remaining assets and brand name of PPI. Phaze Audio went the way of the Dodo. The PPI product lines under ADST management made up almost 75% of ADST sales. But, once again upper management would not listen to reason and spent far too much time, effort and monies on trying to make their money losing brands profitable again. Even the PPI brands suffered when really poor Engineering decisions were made by NON-Engineers and managers who had inflated ego's and no common sense. The owner of ADST trusted these people and believed their lies and half truths. Most of these trusted few resigned or were fired when it was discovered that they had created a house of cards. By that time it was too late and ADST Inc was sold to DEI. DEI still makes the PPI line of Amplifiers and some Signal processors, but IMHO they cannot hold a candle to the originals. They are now made overseas by a company that makes many brands of amplifiers for many other companies. If you want an inkling as to the popularity of the new PPI lines, visit Ebay and check out just how many people are bidding on the PCX series amplifiers offered there. Then, check out the bidding on the older models such as the Art Series and the M an AM series. QED BTW there was only one "ART" series. Those are the PPI amplifiers whose names begin with "A". The "M" series was PPI first line of amplifiers using MOSFETS in their power supply. The "AM" series was an improved version of the "M" series. The White w/Graphics and Black w/graphics were simply mid-design cycle changes to promote sales, much like the PPI Powerclass line and the subsequent chrome version of the same. p.s If you look closely on an ART series amplifier, you will find the initials CHY. The artist name is/was Carolyn Hall Young. John Andreen Captain Howdy wrote: Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. In article xcyzb.416545$Fm2.424716@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina |
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I guess I didn't answer the root question. How has the product changed for
the better or the worse. For one thing, you would never find any TL07x operational amplifiers in any ART series or Powerclass amplifier designs or their signal processors. They have a very high noise floor and their use often times makes an amplifiers output sound like "music being pushed through sand". The original designs preferred National SC LM series of OPAMPs. Better yet, Burr-Brown were sometimes seen in certain designs. Capacitors in or around the signal paths were always Poly Film, Mylar or Silver Mica. No crappy ceramics or high drift mono's were used. I am speaking of the PPI lineage prior to being produced offshore. PPI designs also had a penchent for using high grade output devices such as those from ROHM and SANKEN. These were indeed audio grade output devices. If DEI's PPI amplifiers are at least using ON SEMI's MJx21193/21194 than I will concede this point. They really are great devices. Too much is also placed on THD+N performance of an audio amplifier, including DEI. IMHO, offshore turnkey builders often try to better this specification instead of focusing on IMD. Poor IMD numbers can have a large, deleterious effect on an amplifiers sound quality. When I measured a few of the PCX amplifiers in 2001, several of these amplifiers had an IMD about 4 times that of the PC line. Pretty much like that of an ORION G4 series amplifier. I do not know if this has been corrected in the "new" PPI PCX amplifiers, but I do know that this was not a criterion on your "DESIGN DOCUMENT" list. To all in this group, it (THD+N) should never be a "figure of merit" when choosing an amplifier. In fact, some of the best sounding amplifiers in the world have relatively high THD+N. Negative feedback and THD+N are antagonists. Lowering one increases the other. And it is always better to minimize negative feedback. Makes an amplifier sound "alive" or more "natural". JD, talk to your sages on this one. This one wasn't DEI's call originally, but too much internal signal processing can often lead to loss of channel seperation and degredation of S/N. Amplifiers should amplify. Signal processors should signal process. Being all things to all men is not a good thing. I recall an old addage, "Jack of all trades, Master of none". If you want to win the hearts and minds of all those who believe in "the old school PPI", then I suggest you return to basics. Do you guys even know just how important the PPI "hybrid" board was to creating the "PPI sound". Is it still there? What about the "nuance" cap?. Are there still two muting stages prior to the output stage input? I will leave you with a final perspective. It all truly boils down to the synergy that the Design teams had at the original PPI. No single person was any more or any less than another. All ideas and opinions counted. The original PPI was neither a Marketing driven company, nor was it an Engineering driven company. It was simply an Idea driven company. People wanted to work for this company and it ideals. They would even take big pay cuts just to be part of the magic. It was this "joy de vivre", this spark, this essence, this "je ne sais quoi", that made that company and its products great. PPI is now just another name in a long list of names under the umbrella of DEI. It is now in effect lost like tears in rain. PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again. John Andreen BTW, I hear that John W is no longer with DEI. Good move. I do hope that you learned from a true ZEN master ( George R ) whilst he was in your midst. John Durbin wrote: JA, Thanks for the history update. However, I would love to hear your explanation of how PPI product has somehow deteriorated since we made the ADST acquisition. Here are some facts: * The PCB assembly was already being imported * The final assembly was conducted under no recognized global or US quality system standard * The company was chronically short on cash and forced to make decisions that constantly affected product quality * Return rates on product were becoming a growing problem * Precision Power had themselves already gone offshore to bring in a lower end amp line, as well as ALL of their speakers, and subs * Since the acquisition, Directed has done the following: o Eliminated a slew of problems in the original PCX design, including failure to make power, higher than speced THD+N, etc. etc. None of the original topology was altered in the process, and that topology dates back to Art series or before. PowerClass amps were not much more than Art series circuits with an added crossover and new mechanical design. o Replaced the problematic transistor clamping method that PPI had used for years with one that actually prevents transistors from overheating regularly o Spent the better part of 2002 buying back ADST-built defectives from dealers so they'd continue to support the brand - and a bunch of consumers too o Moved production to ISO9000 certified facilities o Brought R&D and development under our own ISO9000 and QS9000 quality system guidelines o Ditched the crappy C1/C2 subs and replaced them with considerably higher performance, higher quality PowerClass line o Added the US designed and engineered DCX subs and neo component/coax series - getting PPI back into the premium sub/speaker business for the first time since the Phaze speakers and flat piston Pro subs went away. If you stop by our booth at CES in January, you can get a look at the next phase of the revival of this fine brand - a completely new amp family. You'll also see a couple of new processors, a new line of PowerClass speakers, and while you're there, say hello to Roger Paeselt, former VP Sales for PPI - he's stayed with us through the transition and will be the first to tell you that things have gotten a LOT better. I'm old myself - been kicking around 12V since 1977 - and I love old school as much as the next guy. But anyone that tells you the old stuff was better in this case hasn't got a freaking clue. Also, you really need to get over the country of origin hang-up - the names of companies much bigger and better known in audio than us are everywhere in Asia these days... consumer electronics is a global business, and consumers always want more for less. And, something that people rarely understand but anyone that has ever been a product manager in this business learned in the last few years: the factories in Asia will jump through hoops to produce your latest design, and make it work right. The factories in the US take 2-3 times as long, aren't interested in tooling new parts to meet your spec, and frankly don't compete on price, delivery, or any of the critical areas for being an OEM. John Durbin Audio Product Category Manager Directed Electronics Inc. aka JD John Andreen wrote: Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK You are completely remiss in your assertions. I have worked with and for PPI for most of its real existance in car audio. I can unequivocably tell you that PPI never bought ORION Heatsinks and repainted them. Back then, almost all amplifiers had the same look. Square, with fins. They may be similar, but they were not the same. Regarding the Phaze Audio claim, you are once again incorrect. The original owners of PPI ( a brother and sister ) sold to a gentleman from Indiana who was also the owner of Phaze Audio LLC. The selling price was over double the then current value of PPI. Phaze Audio LLC made a few thousand amplifiers on their own prior to buying PPI in 1998. They dropped their current product lines and continued with the PPI products as they were better designed, manufacturing friendly and had decent profit margins. You got it backwards, Phaze Audio LLC did business under the PPI brand names. Their own products fell by the wayside. Poor management and unproven embezzlement led to the demise of Phaze Audio LLC DBA PPI. ADST purchased the remaining assets and brand name of PPI. Phaze Audio went the way of the Dodo. The PPI product lines under ADST management made up almost 75% of ADST sales. But, once again upper management would not listen to reason and spent far too much time, effort and monies on trying to make their money losing brands profitable again. Even the PPI brands suffered when really poor Engineering decisions were made by NON-Engineers and managers who had inflated ego's and no common sense. The owner of ADST trusted these people and believed their lies and half truths. Most of these trusted few resigned or were fired when it was discovered that they had created a house of cards. By that time it was too late and ADST Inc was sold to DEI. DEI still makes the PPI line of Amplifiers and some Signal processors, but IMHO they cannot hold a candle to the originals. They are now made overseas by a company that makes many brands of amplifiers for many other companies. If you want an inkling as to the popularity of the new PPI lines, visit Ebay and check out just how many people are bidding on the PCX series amplifiers offered there. Then, check out the bidding on the older models such as the Art Series and the M an AM series. QED BTW there was only one "ART" series. Those are the PPI amplifiers whose names begin with "A". The "M" series was PPI first line of amplifiers using MOSFETS in their power supply. The "AM" series was an improved version of the "M" series. The White w/Graphics and Black w/graphics were simply mid-design cycle changes to promote sales, much like the PPI Powerclass line and the subsequent chrome version of the same. p.s If you look closely on an ART series amplifier, you will find the initials CHY. The artist name is/was Carolyn Hall Young. John Andreen Captain Howdy wrote: Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. In article xcyzb.416545$Fm2.424716@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina |
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Isn't that the truth.
und "alive" or more "natural". JD, talk to your sages on this one. This one wasn't DEI's call originally, but too much internal signal processing can often lead to loss of channel seperation and degredation of S/N. Amplifiers should amplify. Signal processors should signal process. Being all things to all men is not a good thing. I recall an old addage, "Jack of all trades, Master of none". If you want to win the hearts and minds of all those who believe in "the old school PPI", then I suggest you return to basics. PPI is now just another name in a long list of names under the umbrella of DEI. It is now in effect lost like tears in rain. PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again. |
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damn dude, step away from the crack pipe...
JD Captain Howdy wrote: So what you really mean is that PPI never bought Orion heats sinks, they just coped their design, since Orion was a big seller in those days. The "M" series art work sure looks like the same art works they used on the art series. But then again PPI amps still all look the same from the PC series to now. The PC series four channel amps were ruined thanks to their uneven crossover between front and rear channels that was mounted in the amp via header pins . The PCX series totally sucked ass, even if your were lucky enough to get one that worked new out of the box. I do agree that the art series was the last decent line of amps that PPI produced to date. No one sells DEI gear around here, other then their overpriced alarms, nor have I used any of their gear other then their overpriced alarms. Maybe if PPI made half of the advances that MTX made to their amps over the years, they still be as popular as they once were. That's my two cents. |
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Directed Amplifiers
Yes, I look inside them all the time - both theirs and ours. Among other
things, I like looking at symmetrical PCB layout and bipolar transistors, rather than asymmetrical n-channel FET outputs. I also like looking at the transient response characteristics of the two when driven hard. No prize for guessing which one is devoid of nasty spikes and other artifacts at that point. You're welcome to your choice, it's a strong reliable amp and there are many things I do like about it, but it's not much in the audiophile realm. As for jumper wires and power rails, when did MTX ever manage to make a 1600 watt class AB amp? As I recall, the closest they got was the 2300X, notorious for shorting over-stressed output FET's and passing DC straight to the voice coil. Nice little side effect from passing 90A of B+ directly to the transformer secondary common rather than ground as most AB amps do. That amp was only about 600 watts, I hate to think what a 1000+ watt amp from them would have looked like internally, but I bet it would have come with power rails and been below-spec for output device current capacity. And, last time I looked there was not a jumper wire in sight in the PCX amps so I'm not sure what that's all about. As to the compression, that's a great device if you're more concerned with the return rate on your subwoofers as opposed to enjoying music at its dynamic best. In addition, small footprints are easier with lower powered amps. All that surface mount stuff you're so giddy about is pretty meaningless as the amp gets bigger, since the working parts - power supply components and output devices - drive the footprint far harder than front end components. Then again, if you can name an MTX amp that has half the front end functionality of a PCX, I'll eat my hat. However, since you brought it up perhaps you'd like to take a little closer look at the hybrid SMT driver boards in the PCX 2400 - we use that stuff when it makes sense. We use the crap out of it in our "over-priced" alarms, since size matters a lot more in that business. Hell, I even speced surface mount components in the second generation DEI Audio amps - it's no magic technology, what's more important is the circuit design and execution, not the choice of SMT vs. through-hole. But, frankly your whole rant sounds mostly like it is coming from someone having read a bunch of marketing lit from the manufacturer, and taking it as gospel. JD Captain Howdy wrote: Surface mount technology. Isolated mainboard, isolating the power supply, amp channels, crossover, gains and inputs to it's own cells reducing the size of the mainboard resulting in a smaller amplifier foot print over poke through technology. Also producing a much cleaner look eliminating jumper wires and power rails. Have you looked inside a PPI amplifier lately? Lets not forget about my favorite MTX amplifier advance in their class D line, The compression circuit, protecting the subwoofer during amplifier clipping at high volume levels compressing peak spikes. The only thing that I would add is a adjustable compression ratio. Advances like what? |
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Your explanation of the material changes that caused the transistor
failures jibes with what I've been told, but my point that the current method works better still stands. It is far less subject to material spec differences and more tolerant of assembly torque variances. As to the failure rate issue, I would say that figures don't lie but liars can figure - not casting any aspersions your way but frankly there's been so much BS clouding this brand starting from the Phaze ownership days that I would question ANY data that was put in front of me from that period. Certainly nobody in the operation was looking at accurate numbers at the business end... and there's plenty of ways to cook defect rates too. However, I have no argument with your contention that the product quality dropped off from what it had been. We spent a fair amount of time debugging stuff in 2002 just for that reason. My comments about the lack of quality process reflected what we found at ADST in late 2001, also from some things we saw when we looked at an acquisition in 99? whenever it was the Phaze bubble burst. Naming James as somehow responsible for moving production offshore is pretty weak - I am sure executive management and a need to improve efficiency and cost-down product was the real driver of that. The fact that he's still getting that job done and doing it damn well while constantly improving the reliability and performance of the product speaks to which of the group had better comon sense - there's very little glory to be had as the owner of a defunct process that disappeared because it cost too much for the company to stay in business. JD John Andreen wrote: John you are mostly correct about your assertion below. You are however misinformed about the clamping method that PPI had been using since just about day one of their existence. That method only failed on the PCX line of amplifiers that were produced at ADST Inc. Up until that time, the material callout for the steel bottom/hang-off clamp was specified as an ASTM grade that was meant to have a "springy" characteristic ( read carbon content) and holes were used to hold the clamping screws in place. When the ME at ADST ( his name was Chris C ) and the then VP of Engineering Enrique S, came up with an idea of using an extruded groove to capture the clamping screws instead, all clamping ability was lost. Now, ignoring studies and objections to the contrary, this method was put into production. Any MORON can grasp the fact that a round hole ( of proper diameter )can handle much more shear stress than a groove of similar proportions. Roughly 6 times more to be exact. That is where the failure of the original clamping method occurred. The original PPI clamping was extremely successful and would still work today if properly implimented. The Topology lineage you speak of only begins at the ART series. Much was changed between the AM series and the ART series. If you were to review the schematics, you would know that. You could also contact Bruce McMillan(sp?) at JL AUDIO for a short discourse on the differences, though he may not wish to talk with the enemy. Failure rates in the field were never over 1-2% at the original PPI. Gee, I guess they did follow some form of quality control standards. Failure rates when James T took the production of the PPI PCB's offshore were right around 4%. A 100% increase in field failure. Failure rates on the PCX line produced at ADST were as high as 47%, almost 1 in 2. Bad by any stretch of the imagination. It is easy to be able to brag about being able to better your quality control when you reference the ADST/PPI PCX series. Can you state and prove that your failure rates now are at or below 1-2%? Don't believe me, ask Roger. John Andreen John Durbin wrote: JA, Thanks for the history update. However, I would love to hear your explanation of how PPI product has somehow deteriorated since we made the ADST acquisition. Here are some facts: * The PCB assembly was already being imported * The final assembly was conducted under no recognized global or US quality system standard * The company was chronically short on cash and forced to make decisions that constantly affected product quality * Return rates on product were becoming a growing problem * Precision Power had themselves already gone offshore to bring in a lower end amp line, as well as ALL of their speakers, and subs * Since the acquisition, Directed has done the following: o Eliminated a slew of problems in the original PCX design, including failure to make power, higher than speced THD+N, etc. etc. None of the original topology was altered in the process, and that topology dates back to Art series or before. PowerClass amps were not much more than Art series circuits with an added crossover and new mechanical design. o Replaced the problematic transistor clamping method that PPI had used for years with one that actually prevents transistors from overheating regularly o Spent the better part of 2002 buying back ADST-built defectives from dealers so they'd continue to support the brand - and a bunch of consumers too o Moved production to ISO9000 certified facilities o Brought R&D and development under our own ISO9000 and QS9000 quality system guidelines o Ditched the crappy C1/C2 subs and replaced them with considerably higher performance, higher quality PowerClass line o Added the US designed and engineered DCX subs and neo component/coax series - getting PPI back into the premium sub/speaker business for the first time since the Phaze speakers and flat piston Pro subs went away. If you stop by our booth at CES in January, you can get a look at the next phase of the revival of this fine brand - a completely new amp family. You'll also see a couple of new processors, a new line of PowerClass speakers, and while you're there, say hello to Roger Paeselt, former VP Sales for PPI - he's stayed with us through the transition and will be the first to tell you that things have gotten a LOT better. I'm old myself - been kicking around 12V since 1977 - and I love old school as much as the next guy. But anyone that tells you the old stuff was better in this case hasn't got a freaking clue. Also, you really need to get over the country of origin hang-up - the names of companies much bigger and better known in audio than us are everywhere in Asia these days... consumer electronics is a global business, and consumers always want more for less. And, something that people rarely understand but anyone that has ever been a product manager in this business learned in the last few years: the factories in Asia will jump through hoops to produce your latest design, and make it work right. The factories in the US take 2-3 times as long, aren't interested in tooling new parts to meet your spec, and frankly don't compete on price, delivery, or any of the critical areas for being an OEM. John Durbin Audio Product Category Manager Directed Electronics Inc. aka JD John Andreen wrote: Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK You are completely remiss in your assertions. I have worked with and for PPI for most of its real existance in car audio. I can unequivocably tell you that PPI never bought ORION Heatsinks and repainted them. Back then, almost all amplifiers had the same look. Square, with fins. They may be similar, but they were not the same. Regarding the Phaze Audio claim, you are once again incorrect. The original owners of PPI ( a brother and sister ) sold to a gentleman from Indiana who was also the owner of Phaze Audio LLC. The selling price was over double the then current value of PPI. Phaze Audio LLC made a few thousand amplifiers on their own prior to buying PPI in 1998. They dropped their current product lines and continued with the PPI products as they were better designed, manufacturing friendly and had decent profit margins. You got it backwards, Phaze Audio LLC did business under the PPI brand names. Their own products fell by the wayside. Poor management and unproven embezzlement led to the demise of Phaze Audio LLC DBA PPI. ADST purchased the remaining assets and brand name of PPI. Phaze Audio went the way of the Dodo. The PPI product lines under ADST management made up almost 75% of ADST sales. But, once again upper management would not listen to reason and spent far too much time, effort and monies on trying to make their money losing brands profitable again. Even the PPI brands suffered when really poor Engineering decisions were made by NON-Engineers and managers who had inflated ego's and no common sense. The owner of ADST trusted these people and believed their lies and half truths. Most of these trusted few resigned or were fired when it was discovered that they had created a house of cards. By that time it was too late and ADST Inc was sold to DEI. DEI still makes the PPI line of Amplifiers and some Signal processors, but IMHO they cannot hold a candle to the originals. They are now made overseas by a company that makes many brands of amplifiers for many other companies. If you want an inkling as to the popularity of the new PPI lines, visit Ebay and check out just how many people are bidding on the PCX series amplifiers offered there. Then, check out the bidding on the older models such as the Art Series and the M an AM series. QED BTW there was only one "ART" series. Those are the PPI amplifiers whose names begin with "A". The "M" series was PPI first line of amplifiers using MOSFETS in their power supply. The "AM" series was an improved version of the "M" series. The White w/Graphics and Black w/graphics were simply mid-design cycle changes to promote sales, much like the PPI Powerclass line and the subsequent chrome version of the same. p.s If you look closely on an ART series amplifier, you will find the initials CHY. The artist name is/was Carolyn Hall Young. John Andreen Captain Howdy wrote: Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. In article xcyzb.416545$Fm2.424716@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina |
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Holy cow, it's freaking thesis paper! Good stuff though... I'm dropping
a few responses/comments in below: John Andreen wrote: I guess I didn't answer the root question. How has the product changed for the better or the worse. For one thing, you would never find any TL07x operational amplifiers in any ART series or Powerclass amplifier designs or their signal processors. They have a very high noise floor and their use often times makes an amplifiers output sound like "music being pushed through sand". The original designs preferred National SC LM series of OPAMPs. Better yet, Burr-Brown were sometimes seen in certain designs. Capacitors in or around the signal paths were always Poly Film, Mylar or Silver Mica. No crappy ceramics or high drift mono's were used. I am speaking of the PPI lineage prior to being produced offshore. PPI designs also had a penchent for using high grade output devices such as those from ROHM and SANKEN. These were indeed audio grade output devices. If DEI's PPI amplifiers are at least using ON SEMI's MJx21193/21194 than I will concede this point. They really are great devices. I'd have to look, frankly - I do know we still use Burr-Brown ops in some of the a/d/s/ Powerplate models, but the transistor selection is beyond my area of expertise. Though I have been responsible to that level of detail in the past, I am purely marketing-side these days. Too much is also placed on THD+N performance of an audio amplifier, including DEI. IMHO, offshore turnkey builders often try to better this specification instead of focusing on IMD. Why do you say that? I've been responsible for that kind of philosophical choice from the beginning at DEI, and have never been an advocate of exceptionally low THD+N. Other than some processors, nothing we've ever built was designed to do much better than maybe 0.05% to 0.8%. The things I learned about amp philosophy from Robert Zeff and others while working my way through retail are much closer in line with what you're advocating. While I do not believe that some of the things people fixate on are particularly audible (as long as they reach at least a minimal "threshold"level anyway), i.e. damping factor, slew rate, THD+N, etc., I'm not opposed to improving them either. Poor IMD numbers can have a large, deleterious effect on an amplifiers sound quality. When I measured a few of the PCX amplifiers in 2001, several of these amplifiers had an IMD about 4 times that of the PC line. Pretty much like that of an ORION G4 series amplifier. I do not know if this has been corrected in the "new" PPI PCX amplifiers, but I do know that this was not a criterion on your "DESIGN DOCUMENT" list. To all in this group, it (THD+N) should never be a "figure of merit" when choosing an amplifier. In fact, some of the best sounding amplifiers in the world have relatively high THD+N. Negative feedback and THD+N are antagonists. Lowering one increases the other. And it is always better to minimize negative feedback. Makes an amplifier sound "alive" or more "natural". JD, talk to your sages on this one. You're preaching to the choir, I cut my teeth as an installer working with Zapco amps that fit that description to a T. I remember a very funny day in the install bay around 1981-82 when a salesman from Kimber was trying to convince us that using their braided signal cables would solve all our noise problems and in addition, allow the amps we were installing to produce more power. He set up a whole demo with a scope and an amp he had brought where he was able to conclusively show that noise induced in the signal cables was looping through the amp's output stage via negative feedback, resulting in heat, reduced power etc. Then my boss had him substitute a Zapco 150A in place of his test amp. There was no difference before and after, as the Zapco had so little feedback that the looping phenomenon was undectable. The salesman left shortly after that without an opening order... This one wasn't DEI's call originally, but too much internal signal processing can often lead to loss of channel seperation and degredation of S/N. Amplifiers should amplify. Signal processors should signal process. Being all things to all men is not a good thing. I recall an old addage, "Jack of all trades, Master of none". If you want to win the hearts and minds of all those who believe in "the old school PPI", then I suggest you return to basics. Ok, we'll be the guys living in that 2% of the business that doesn't include front end processing in their amps. What the hell, the brand was almost dead when we picked it up anyway. I happen to like really high-grade processors myself - although I've found that very good digital solutions can be a good substitute - but it doesn't mean we can survive selling at a competitive disadvantage to the entire world. The same thing about too much internal processing is also true of outboard processors, plus you don't always control the signal routing - that's in the hands of an installer. There's plenty of noisy processors out there, and plenty more that cause noise in systems due to lousy attention to signal path and grounding details, not to mention some that clip prematurely at internal chokepoints due to stupid gain choices or lousy component selection. Do you guys even know just how important the PPI "hybrid" board was to creating the "PPI sound". Is it still there? What about the "nuance" cap?. Are there still two muting stages prior to the output stage input? Yes on the hybrid board - not every model, but I know the PCX 2400 uses them and I believe some of the other 2 and 4 channel larger stuff does as well. Not sure about the mono blocks or the 5 channel. The prototype 1000 watt 4 channel for next year I was looking at in Engineering today has four of them. And, those hybrid boards got debugged - again, by our engineers after the acquisition - so it works as well now as the original domestic version did. Don't know about the other elements. I will leave you with a final perspective. It all truly boils down to the synergy that the Design teams had at the original PPI. No single person was any more or any less than another. All ideas and opinions counted. The original PPI was neither a Marketing driven company, nor was it an Engineering driven company. It was simply an Idea driven company. People wanted to work for this company and it ideals. They would even take big pay cuts just to be part of the magic. It was this "joy de vivre", this spark, this essence, this "je ne sais quoi", that made that company and its products great. PPI is now just another name in a long list of names under the umbrella of DEI. It is now in effect lost like tears in rain. PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again. Send them our way - we love people that work for joy instead of money :-) Seriously, I do understand the passion of those people and the company back then. Though they were different philosophically, a/d/s/ and Orion had that same passion for product and the whole car audio lifestyle. many of us - and I say us because I've always had the same passion about what I do in this business, as do those Phoenix people that have stayed on with us after the acquisition. It's definitely harder to have the same flavor within the corporate frame, but as a very positive offset we can focus purely on the product, and the marketing, and the ideas without having to worry whether we're employed next week, next month, next year. In the long run, that plus the passion should be a great combination and allow us to do some fun, cool stuff. I worry more about where the car audio market is headed and how we get it moving back towards SQ and more advanced levels as a hobby than I do about whether we'll make it or whether the brands will prosper. John Andreen BTW, I hear that John W is no longer with DEI. Good move. I do hope that you learned from a true ZEN master ( George R ) whilst he was in your midst. John and George were both a pleasure to work with as was Sam, was very disappointed we couldn't convince them to relocate and design nice amps with us in San Diego. As to whether it was a good move, I won't comment - people need to be where they're happy. But, he was important to us and has been missed - I hope that turns out to be equally true where he is now. His replacement is a pretty cool guy too - gentleman named Carlos. You may know him... JD John Durbin wrote: JA, Thanks for the history update. However, I would love to hear your explanation of how PPI product has somehow deteriorated since we made the ADST acquisition. Here are some facts: * The PCB assembly was already being imported * The final assembly was conducted under no recognized global or US quality system standard * The company was chronically short on cash and forced to make decisions that constantly affected product quality * Return rates on product were becoming a growing problem * Precision Power had themselves already gone offshore to bring in a lower end amp line, as well as ALL of their speakers, and subs * Since the acquisition, Directed has done the following: o Eliminated a slew of problems in the original PCX design, including failure to make power, higher than speced THD+N, etc. etc. None of the original topology was altered in the process, and that topology dates back to Art series or before. PowerClass amps were not much more than Art series circuits with an added crossover and new mechanical design. o Replaced the problematic transistor clamping method that PPI had used for years with one that actually prevents transistors from overheating regularly o Spent the better part of 2002 buying back ADST-built defectives from dealers so they'd continue to support the brand - and a bunch of consumers too o Moved production to ISO9000 certified facilities o Brought R&D and development under our own ISO9000 and QS9000 quality system guidelines o Ditched the crappy C1/C2 subs and replaced them with considerably higher performance, higher quality PowerClass line o Added the US designed and engineered DCX subs and neo component/coax series - getting PPI back into the premium sub/speaker business for the first time since the Phaze speakers and flat piston Pro subs went away. If you stop by our booth at CES in January, you can get a look at the next phase of the revival of this fine brand - a completely new amp family. You'll also see a couple of new processors, a new line of PowerClass speakers, and while you're there, say hello to Roger Paeselt, former VP Sales for PPI - he's stayed with us through the transition and will be the first to tell you that things have gotten a LOT better. I'm old myself - been kicking around 12V since 1977 - and I love old school as much as the next guy. But anyone that tells you the old stuff was better in this case hasn't got a freaking clue. Also, you really need to get over the country of origin hang-up - the names of companies much bigger and better known in audio than us are everywhere in Asia these days... consumer electronics is a global business, and consumers always want more for less. And, something that people rarely understand but anyone that has ever been a product manager in this business learned in the last few years: the factories in Asia will jump through hoops to produce your latest design, and make it work right. The factories in the US take 2-3 times as long, aren't interested in tooling new parts to meet your spec, and frankly don't compete on price, delivery, or any of the critical areas for being an OEM. John Durbin Audio Product Category Manager Directed Electronics Inc. aka JD John Andreen wrote: Captain Howdy YOU ARE ON CRACK You are completely remiss in your assertions. I have worked with and for PPI for most of its real existance in car audio. I can unequivocably tell you that PPI never bought ORION Heatsinks and repainted them. Back then, almost all amplifiers had the same look. Square, with fins. They may be similar, but they were not the same. Regarding the Phaze Audio claim, you are once again incorrect. The original owners of PPI ( a brother and sister ) sold to a gentleman from Indiana who was also the owner of Phaze Audio LLC. The selling price was over double the then current value of PPI. Phaze Audio LLC made a few thousand amplifiers on their own prior to buying PPI in 1998. They dropped their current product lines and continued with the PPI products as they were better designed, manufacturing friendly and had decent profit margins. You got it backwards, Phaze Audio LLC did business under the PPI brand names. Their own products fell by the wayside. Poor management and unproven embezzlement led to the demise of Phaze Audio LLC DBA PPI. ADST purchased the remaining assets and brand name of PPI. Phaze Audio went the way of the Dodo. The PPI product lines under ADST management made up almost 75% of ADST sales. But, once again upper management would not listen to reason and spent far too much time, effort and monies on trying to make their money losing brands profitable again. Even the PPI brands suffered when really poor Engineering decisions were made by NON-Engineers and managers who had inflated ego's and no common sense. The owner of ADST trusted these people and believed their lies and half truths. Most of these trusted few resigned or were fired when it was discovered that they had created a house of cards. By that time it was too late and ADST Inc was sold to DEI. DEI still makes the PPI line of Amplifiers and some Signal processors, but IMHO they cannot hold a candle to the originals. They are now made overseas by a company that makes many brands of amplifiers for many other companies. If you want an inkling as to the popularity of the new PPI lines, visit Ebay and check out just how many people are bidding on the PCX series amplifiers offered there. Then, check out the bidding on the older models such as the Art Series and the M an AM series. QED BTW there was only one "ART" series. Those are the PPI amplifiers whose names begin with "A". The "M" series was PPI first line of amplifiers using MOSFETS in their power supply. The "AM" series was an improved version of the "M" series. The White w/Graphics and Black w/graphics were simply mid-design cycle changes to promote sales, much like the PPI Powerclass line and the subsequent chrome version of the same. p.s If you look closely on an ART series amplifier, you will find the initials CHY. The artist name is/was Carolyn Hall Young. John Andreen Captain Howdy wrote: Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. In article xcyzb.416545$Fm2.424716@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina |
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Again, you show your ignorance... please refer to my response to John,
who will certainly "get it" as he clearly has a well above average idea what he's talking about. JD Captain Howdy wrote: Isn't that the truth. und "alive" or more "natural". JD, talk to your sages on this one. This one wasn't DEI's call originally, but too much internal signal processing can often lead to loss of channel seperation and degredation of S/N. Amplifiers should amplify. Signal processors should signal process. Being all things to all men is not a good thing. I recall an old addage, "Jack of all trades, Master of none". If you want to win the hearts and minds of all those who believe in "the old school PPI", then I suggest you return to basics. PPI is now just another name in a long list of names under the umbrella of DEI. It is now in effect lost like tears in rain. PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again. |
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Those would be the DEI Audio amps that had that "natural open" sound
these guys are advocating, right? They may have been fugly little *******s but they sounded just fine... JD John Spagnolo MMXpress.com wrote: No one sells DEI gear around here, other then their overpriced alarms, nor have I used any of their gear other then their overpriced alarms. Too bad. You don't know what your missing. I have been using Directed Audio in my own vehicles since there was a Directed Audio (OK, it was DEI Audio back then). I've never heared anyone say a bad thing about them. Maybe if PPI made half of the advances that MTX made to their amps over the years, they still be as popular as they once were. Advances like what? |
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I never said ay of those guys were engineers, but they damn sure know
they don't have to hide from dealers that want to return entire shipments of defective amplifiers any more ... I think perhaps you are extrapolating a little further than my remarks actually warranted. You clearly know the inside story from the pre-ADST days far better than I do, but if you go back and read what I wrote it was clearly referencing the conditions at ADST when we acquired them. As to the heat sink commonality, you tell me: did one of the companies produce for the other or not? Did one of the two steal an extrusion design from the other? The two examples Captain Howdy was harping about were clearly not what he claimed. Feel free to provide more specifics if you ware arguing in his favor on that point. JD John Andreen wrote: Hey John, If you are saying that either James T, Bill T, Sean D, or Roger P have any real idea on these issue's, then let's all hear from them. I know you won't as I am indeed "calling your bluff" James T hasn't got a clue about anything except how to make something cheaper ( and with less quality ). Bill T might have some idea about Orion, but when pressed, he didn't even know what the filter cut-off slope was for an Orion product. There is nothing Sean D can add because it is 100% clueless. Roger P is perhaps the one shining star, at least for the PPI products as he began his career with PPI sanding raw heatsinks in preparation for subsequent paint and silkscreen. Ask him. John Andreen John Durbin wrote: No they weren't ... they have been buying heat sinks from outside suppliers for many years. Many of them that would love to collect what they were owed on the several occasions one company or the other in Phoenix stiffed them. Do you even remember wht Art series looked like? It has no fins, a triangular shape at one edge and a circular roll at the opposite edge. The top cover was white painted steel with pretty pictures painted on it. I defy you to find me an Orion that has EVER looked like that. The original GX amps had the same heat sink as the original HCCA, predated them actually ... I know, I became an authorized dealer for the brand in 1987. The GX were black with silver machined accent strips, and the HCCA were a dark red with the same machined strips. They both used phantom power DIN inputs, although RCA's were provided for use when you weren't driving them with an Orion processor. There is a later GX mechanical design, before it became the SX series and later Extreme stuff. At the timethe GX came out, PPI was making such models as the 4030, 2075, that kind of stuff. They migrated to the longer, skinny models not long afterwards - like the big surfboard stuff - 2200, 2350, those kind of critters. When the Art series came out, it changed the mechanical look 100% and was very different than anything anyone else in the US was making or would make, before being replaced itself by the first-gen PowerClass models in 1987. You are simly wrong in what you're saying - and I will be glad to have one of the two surviving vice presidents of Orion and Precision Power, or their amplifier parts procurement manager, all of whom I work with daily, confirm that you're wrong. Or, you could just let it go. JD Captain Howdy wrote: Back in those days, Orion ampifier heatsinks were hand crafted, in their Tempe AZ factory. The Orion GX line was out way before the PPI Art Series line. The PPI Art Series line came out around the same time as the Orion SX line of amplifiers. I'm not saying that PPI stole anything. What I am saying is that they bough the GX line from Orion and repained them and sold them as their early Art Series line. A short time after the Art Series came out PPI changed the case to a finless rounded end heatsink like the one found on the A100 and A200 amplifier. The next time that you come across a PPI 2075AM, 4200AM or 2150M, take a close look and you'll see what I mean. Here is another inferesting fact that many people are unaware of, PPI used to sell gear under the Phaze Audio name. In article xcyzb.416545$Fm2.424716@attbi_s04, "Paul Vina" wrote: SO? Lots of companies get parts from the same vendors. And how do you know it was PPI that stole anyone's design (assuming there was any copying in the first place)? Paul Vina |
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Directed Amplifiers
John Durbin wrote:
I never said ay of those guys were engineers, but they damn sure know they don't have to hide from dealers that want to return entire shipments of defective amplifiers any more ... I think perhaps you are extrapolating a little further than my remarks actually warranted. You clearly know the inside story from the pre-ADST days far better than I do, but if you go back and read what I wrote it was clearly referencing the conditions at ADST when we acquired them. As to the heat sink commonality, you tell me: did one of the companies produce for the other or not? Did one of the two steal an extrusion design from the other? The two examples Captain Howdy was harping about were clearly not what he claimed. Feel free to provide more specifics if you ware arguing in his favor on that point. JD Mr Durbin, I have gone back as far as I can remember and things kind of go like this. A company called OHM TECH used to do contract board manufacturing for Rockford Fosgate. After a period of time, these individuals at OHM TECH saw an opportunity to make money by building their own product. This handful of people started ORION. Time went by and several of the original people had a falling out. They left and started Precision Power Inc. The biggest differences were over topologies. Orion preferred fixed duty cycle quasi-regulated power supplies. PPI preferred fully regulated PWM regulation schemes, hence the name Precision Power. At this juncture, I am pretty sure that only a handful of companies were using PWM. There was a gigantic rift between ORION and PPI that only ended when PPI and ORION were both under ADST roof. A little known factoid is that all ORION amplifiers made up until the "Spock's Coffin" line had vestigial elements left over in the Power supply section that are of little or no use in a MOSFET power supply. In fact, these elements often have a substantial deleterious effect on the amplifier. In short they can blow up just "because". PPI was not without its share of internal strife either. An inside power play between the 2 top shareholders resulted in a split that created EXTANT amplifiers. EXTANT even used PPI's first building as their base of operations. This was largely due in fact to Mr Scoon still owning the building. PPI produced amplifiers for Crutchfield, Jensen, Sansui, MTX and your speaker guy's (Doctor Dave) ex-employer. Not once did they produce products for ORION. Nor did they ever conspire with them and use their heatsinks. PPI extrusions have always been "their own" and the extrusion dies were always purchased outright. Does this help? John Andreen |
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Directed Amplifiers
John,
Could that be a one Carlos C who might have worked at Rockford Fosgate. If so, He is quite the Audio Engineer. John Andreen |
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