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#81
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 28, 8:16�pm, "ScottW" wrote:
wrote in ... On Oct 25, 7:28?am, "C. Leeds" wrote: ScottW wrote: Clamping something as pliable as vinyl as far from the sylus as a record clamp typically is...is simply futile Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. LP clamping is a very effective means of improving isolation, from the simple screw down clamps (such as was popularized by Oracle) to the more elaborate peripheral clamps, such as VPIs. As you yourself note: ?Effective isolation is easily confirmed... Those who've experimented with these clamping systems can confirm their effectiveness. Clamps don't improve isolation. Exactly, If anything it must diminish it by improving coupling to the platter. �This may change the resonance of the system but not at the distance and with a material as compliant as vinyl. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Only if you sandwiched the entire record. Vinyl is pretty compliant and as such wont conduct vibration or force over any distance in the vertical axis or thinnest dimension of the record. � A clamp at the center won't improve coupling of the record to the platter inches away. ScottW- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It will if the platter and clamp have been designed to apply leverage beyond the edge of the clamp. |
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#82
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"ScottW" wrote in message
... wrote in message ... Vinyl is pretty compliant and as such wont conduct vibration or force over any distance in the vertical axis or thinnest dimension of the record. The vinyl used to make LPs also has quite a bit of inherent damping. Pling the edge of an LP with your finger. It doesn't ring, it sort of goes thwock. A clamp at the center won't improve coupling of the record to the platter inches away. Agreed. The most logical way to damp a LP is to put as much of its surface in contact with a damping material like felt or perhaps Sorbothane. Thing is, it is very hard to measure potentially audible resonances on a LP that is supported even minimally. The inherent damping of soft vinyl seems to really work. Methinks that this whole LP damping thing is just more pseudoscience in the service of marketing expensive turntables and record mats. |
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#83
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 29, 6:03�am, "Mike Gilmour" wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message ... wrote in ... On Oct 25, 7:28?am, "C. Leeds" wrote: ScottW wrote: Clamping something as pliable as vinyl as far from the sylus as a record clamp typically is...is simply futile Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. LP clamping is a very effective means of improving isolation, from the simple screw down clamps (such as was popularized by Oracle) to the more elaborate peripheral clamps, such as VPIs. As you yourself note: ?Effective isolation is easily confirmed... Those who've experimented with these clamping systems can confirm their effectiveness. Clamps don't improve isolation. Exactly, If anything it must diminish it by improving coupling to the platter. �This may change the resonance of the system but not at the distance and with a material as compliant as vinyl. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Only if you sandwiched the entire record. Vinyl is pretty compliant and as such wont conduct vibration or force over any distance in the vertical axis or thinnest dimension of the record. �A clamp at the center won't improve coupling of the record to the platter inches away. ScottW I'd agree to an extent. Since this thread about clamps started I've run some listening tests comparing both vacuum Vs spindle clamping. On my vacuum clamp SOTA turntable, it is trivially easy to see the affects by switching out vacuum pump. With the pump on there is a discernibly lower noise floor i.e a 'blacker' background less surface noise, imaging and general focus improves. Without vacuum but using the SOTA centre 'pull down' clamp the benefits are not as good but better than no clamp at all. I don't have the periphery clamping ring so I can't comment about that one. I've also heard the Basis vacuum turntable that exhibited similiar results. This suggest to me that centre clamping athough good is not as successful as vacuum clamping. Just my 2p's worth... Mike- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As a former owner of a SOTA Star I have to say that test is a little unfair. Without the vacuum engaged the rubber lip on the platter designed to create the vacuum seal will push the vinyl away from the platter even with the clamp. Turntables with no vacuum hold down will not have the same unique problem. |
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#84
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
wrote in message
... On Oct 28, 5:17�pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in ... Clamps don't improve isolation. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Must not be what you mean, because you can't change the stiffness of vinyl without changing the vinyl itself. No it is exactly what I mean. Hold a vinyl record in the air and try to flex it. It is quite easy. Now place it against a platter and couple it with a record clamp. It won't flex in the direction of the platter. so it is effectively stiffer. However, this is not a real-world example because we *never* hold a vinyl record in the air and try to play it. Well, maybe some crazed enthusiast has tried it, but I don't know about it! ;-) What a clamp might do is mechanically couple the vinyl to something that is stiffer than it is, which would make the vinyl part of something that is stiffer. �Stiffening would raise the resonance of the vinyl sheet, which would probably move it into a frequency range where its vibration would be more audible. So, just because the LP is stiffened, is not necessarily an advantage. That is true. That is why platter design is a lot more complicated than just making it out of the stiffest material out there. Technical measurements seem to show that platter material is not all that important - many things will work. Platters and mats need to be damped and need to be carefully designed with careful choice of materials to insure complimentary internal resonant frequencies. You don't want a platter that rings like a bell. Actually, I've had several platters that rang pretty nicely if I held them in the air. Some were made out of steel sheet and also die cast aluminum or similar metal. Well I don't. There are some designs out there with some pretty stiff undamped light weight platters. I tend to find these designs to be noticeably unpleasantly colored. You will find this a common design feature in the Rega line of turntables. Sorry Arny. Nothing personal. But I don't like the Regas. I posted both a frequency sweep (well known means for exciting resonances) and a dynamic range test of a Rega at www.pcavtech.com . See any resonances in actual use? 2. they allow for better damping of the vinyl. This would only happen if the vinyl were put into more intimate contact with something that is itself dampening. The degree of clamping would need to be optimized, not too little, not too much. If the record is clamped to the damper too tightly, then the damping due to sliding between the two elements would be lost. You are absolutely right here. that is why we often find the most successful designs incorporate clamps that are specifically designed to go with the platter. "Going with the platter" does not ensure what I am talking about. However, there's plenty of evidence that exotic matched and damped platters are solutions looking for problems. �If you have a stiff, well damped platter, those characteristics will better transcribe to the vinyl when better coupled to the platter. If this vibration of the LP has no audible effects, then dampening this vibration will have no audible effects. That is true but we can't get around the fact that the stylus is riding the vinyl. Actual tests would show any problems that were audible. Clealry any added vibration to the vinyl will be fed directly into the stylus. Only if it happens to an audible degree. Ever wonder why exotic LP playback equipment provide zero technical tests for their products, and Stereophile has AFAIK only done one? Technical testing would not show a real-world advantage for a lot of expensive tool work and materials. It's audio jewelry, plain and simple. Also the stylus is putting energy directly into the vinyl. If the vinyl is flexing that is very bad. If it is taking that energy that is being directly applied to it and reflecting it back because the vinyl is coupled to a stiff undamped platter that rings like a bell, you have yet another significant coloration. turntable design is a pretty complicated endeavor. Actually, there's nothing at all inherently complicated about turntable design. Nothing new of technical significance has been seen in decades. When measuring the frequency response and noise from a LP, these vibrations should have some measurable effects. I can't remember seeing any, and see no signs of them in the published test results we have discussed. Note that these measurements *do* pick up vibrations that are very tiny. Many of the vibrations that we *can* measure are masked by other sound sources including the music that is recorded on the LP. How do determine what is causing what when you look at your measurements? Well, we know what was put on the test record. The input to the cutting lathe is reported by the engineer who made the recording. The contents of the recorded disk can be determined using a microscope. We're hoping that when we play the test record, the input to the cutting lathe is what comes back. If something is missing or else shows up, then that's not good. Vis-a-vis these alleged vibration problems, that can't be detected: When evidence of a problem is so universally absent, there is no causality to be determined. I can explain why it doesn't happen. I can't explain why it should happen. The thing is isolation and damping achieve similar results, the reduction of added vibration to the system. I'm surprised that clamps don't help flatten records out. One of the rather obvious problems of the LP is jitter or FM distortion due to the LP not being perfectly flat. Thank you for adding that. Clamps also help flatten out records. But, they only help somewhat - they are not a solution. It is ironic that so much is made of jitter in digital equipment that is 100 dB down or more, and so little is made of similar jitter from LPs that is only 30 to 50 dB down. Another Mulligan, I think. :-( |
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#85
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
... I'd agree to an extent. Since this thread about clamps started I've run some listening tests comparing both vacuum Vs spindle clamping. On my vacuum clamp SOTA turntable, it is trivially easy to see the affects by switching out vacuum pump. With the pump on there is a discernibly lower noise floor i.e a 'blacker' background less surface noise, imaging and general focus improves. This should no doubt show up in technical testing. It seems like a profound mechanical change like this would be pretty obvious in ordinary testing. I've never seen the results of any unbiased testing, subjective or test equipment based, of this hypothesis. |
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#86
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
wrote in message ...
On Oct 29, 6:03?am, "Mike Gilmour" wrote: "ScottW" wrote in message ... wrote in ... On Oct 25, 7:28?am, "C. Leeds" wrote: ScottW wrote: Clamping something as pliable as vinyl as far from the sylus as a record clamp typically is...is simply futile Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. LP clamping is a very effective means of improving isolation, from the simple screw down clamps (such as was popularized by Oracle) to the more elaborate peripheral clamps, such as VPIs. As you yourself note: ?Effective isolation is easily confirmed... Those who've experimented with these clamping systems can confirm their effectiveness. Clamps don't improve isolation. Exactly, If anything it must diminish it by improving coupling to the platter. ?This may change the resonance of the system but not at the distance and with a material as compliant as vinyl. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Only if you sandwiched the entire record. Vinyl is pretty compliant and as such wont conduct vibration or force over any distance in the vertical axis or thinnest dimension of the record. ?A clamp at the center won't improve coupling of the record to the platter inches away. ScottW I'd agree to an extent. Since this thread about clamps started I've run some listening tests comparing both vacuum Vs spindle clamping. On my vacuum clamp SOTA turntable, it is trivially easy to see the affects by switching out vacuum pump. With the pump on there is a discernibly lower noise floor i.e a 'blacker' background less surface noise, imaging and general focus improves. Without vacuum but using the SOTA centre 'pull down' clamp the benefits are not as good but better than no clamp at all. I don't have the periphery clamping ring so I can't comment about that one. I've also heard the Basis vacuum turntable that exhibited similiar results. This suggest to me that centre clamping athough good is not as successful as vacuum clamping. Just my 2p's worth... Mike- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As a former owner of a SOTA Star I have to say that test is a little unfair. Without the vacuum engaged the rubber lip on the platter designed to create the vacuum seal will push the vinyl away from the platter even with the clamp. Turntables with no vacuum hold down will not have the same unique problem. Fair comment, agreed it was not a fair test. This evening I've tried the MRM Source turntable with / without clamp - preferred with clamp but the results were less marked than with the SOTA, probably for the very reason you stated. |
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#87
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On 2008-10-29, Arny Krueger wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Vinyl is pretty compliant and as such wont conduct vibration or force over any distance in the vertical axis or thinnest dimension of the record. The vinyl used to make LPs also has quite a bit of inherent damping. Pling the edge of an LP with your finger. It doesn't ring, it sort of goes thwock. A clamp at the center won't improve coupling of the record to the platter inches away. Agreed. The most logical way to damp a LP is to put as much of its surface in contact with a damping material like felt or perhaps Sorbothane. Thing is, it is very hard to measure potentially audible resonances on a LP that is supported even minimally. The inherent damping of soft vinyl seems to really work. Methinks that this whole LP damping thing is just more pseudoscience in the service of marketing expensive turntables and record mats. But center clamping does help flatten those warped recycled vinyl that were used during the '70s oil crises. |
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#88
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
... Methinks that this whole LP damping thing is just more pseudoscience in the service of marketing expensive turntables and record mats. Then you are wrong, and you haven't ever tried it, or if you have, listened closely. The improvements in clarity and soundstaging are not subtle...at least on my Linn and Thorens they weren't. |
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#89
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
The low end of audio
has certainly made quantum leaps in quality for that audience over the years. Agreed, and with a bullet. .....and high-end audio is now in the reach of anyone without the need to take out a mortgage, which, in my view, is very good news. Of course there's still lots of companies prepared to convince you to cough up ludicrous amounts of cash to hear things marginally better. Personally, I appreciate the prevalence of headphones over boom boxes for teen music today. Cuts down on noise pollution, at the very least. My prediction is a worldwide epidemic in about 20 years of premature deafness and hearing problems brought on by today's kids using headphones at too high a level. Headphone wearers rarely realise that the body's main way of determining that something is dangerously loud is physical - your entire body feels it. Inject the sound directly into your ears and you lose that early-warning system. --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com |
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#90
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
I've been away for a while and on reading this long thread I thought I
must have gone back in time - all this talk of LPs and cassette tapes! Simple physics will suggest to you that the very process of playing back an analogue medium such as a vinyl LP with a mechanical device called a stylus is going to induce an element of distortion of its own. The stylus is being pushed around by the groove at a hell of a rate and, whilst small, it has a finite mass, and therefore will apply some forces back into the LP via the groove walls. Similarly some of that energy will be passed into the arm itself and therefore the magnets or coils around the stylus armature, and will therefore affect the way the signal is picked up. Mechanical, stylus-induced distortion, then. But probably an insignificant element? Well here's a simple experiment I tried out probably 30 years ago. Get a simple piezo-electric guitar pickup and stick it to your tone arm, then re-balance the arm. Turn all your audio equipment off apart from your turntable and play an LP on it. Plug the guitar pickup into something and listen. The level of signal picked up will probably surprise you. You can then try it out with the pickup attached to the turntable base. Again I remember being surprised, even shocked, at the level of signal that was being generated via the stylus and transmitted right through to the turntable base. I seem to remember being able to hear audible differences in this induced signal picked up through the guitar pick-up when I tried different turntable mats and my conclusion at the time was that the difference was due to the extent to which they helped damp out this mechanically induced signal. My guess is that this distortion is also reduced by the various clamping mechanisms that others have discussed here, since you're increasing the effective mass of the vinyl record. For those of you who really believe that LP sound represents the ultimate sonic experience, I'd suggest that your sought-after nirvana will only be truly reached if you have a contactless, non-mechanical way of reading the LP grooves. Someone posted a link to a laser-based LP player on this newsgroup some time ago. Eye-wateringly expensive if I remember! However, as one of Mr Sullivan's links implied, remember that this same process of induced signal will have occurred during the vinyl master cutting process, but you'll be unable to do anything about it! Like it or hate it, the great thing about digital is that the processes of writing to and reading from whatever storage medium is used can have no effect on the original signal. Processing and amplifying that raw digital stream is, of course, another matter. On 22 Oct 2008 19:26:36 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote: Arny Krueger wrote: "Steven Sullivan" wrote in message C. Leeds wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: ...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. More recently, this series of articles, including measurements: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/featu...rts-6---8.html Steven, you might find this to be an interesting comparison: Please compare http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/image...raph-large.gif Note that this graphic shows a 1 KHz tone, with the second harmonic about 20 dB down, which I call 10% second harmonic nonlinear distortion. 10% distortion is a *lot* of distortion by any standard. There's no question as to its audibility under a wide variety of conditions. And, it should be given no special allowance or tolerance on the ground that it is a so-called "euphonic" harmonic - the same nonlinearity *must* create equally egregious amounts of IM when playing real-world music. to: http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/rega-2/grado-SNR.gif Note that this graphic shows a 300 Hz tone, with the second and third harmonics each 40-45 dB down, which I call less than one percent second and third harmonic distortion. Simple question - which LP player is doing the better job of providing a relatively low-distortion rendition of the recording being played - the one with a stated 7% THD+N or the one with less than 0.7% THD+N? The Rega/Grado combo, by that metric. However, if the Secrets' author's contention hat 2nd order harmonic distortion is euphonic is true, then some listeners might subjectively prefer MORE of it, via the Macintosh rig! Either way you marked the Rega/Grado as 'Poor' in that category. http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/rega-2/ That 'jitter distortion' measurment is interesting, I don't recall Stereophile calling it that when they test vinyl rigs ; Also intersting to compare the TT/cart results to something digital as humble as, say...a Sony portable CDP http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_D-220/index.htm --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com |
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#91
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 29, 8:21�pm, "ScottW" wrote:
wrote in ... On Oct 28, 8:16 pm, "ScottW" wrote: wrote in ... On Oct 25, 7:28?am, "C. Leeds" wrote: ScottW wrote: Clamping something as pliable as vinyl as far from the sylus as a record clamp typically is...is simply futile Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. LP clamping is a very effective means of improving isolation, from the simple screw down clamps (such as was popularized by Oracle) to the more elaborate peripheral clamps, such as VPIs. As you yourself note: ?Effective isolation is easily confirmed... Those who've experimented with these clamping systems can confirm their effectiveness. Clamps don't improve isolation. Exactly, If anything it must diminish it by improving coupling to the platter. This may change the resonance of the system but not at the distance and with a material as compliant as vinyl. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Only if you sandwiched the entire record. Vinyl is pretty compliant and as such wont conduct vibration or force over any distance in the vertical axis or thinnest dimension of the record. A clamp at the center won't improve coupling of the record to the platter inches away. ScottW- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It will if the platter and clamp have been designed to apply leverage beyond the edge of the clamp. �If I am envisioning the idea correctly, you're attempting to cup the vinyl (deflect it down slightly against the platter) by a clamp with a down force ring outside a up rim in the platter. You can't actually force the vinyl down all around as doing so will reduce the circumference and require a material that can be compressed. ScottW- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I don't think the center clamp is a pefect solution. Especially with warped records but I think you need to look more carefully at the geometry involved here. Even a flat record is not actually flat. The labels tend to be thicker than the rest of the record and they also have raised lips on the perimeter. Various clamping systems and platter combinations work in different ways top apply positive preasure on the entire record from the center. the SOTA (the make of turntable) uses a washer at the base of the record spindal that raises the label higher than the platter surface. the clamp applies preasure on the label beyond the edge of the washer which pushes the entire record against the platter. That is just one example. There are other turntables that use a very slightly dished platter to help ensure contact. I don't like that solution though because it can only screw up the geometry. |
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#92
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
... "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Methinks that this whole LP damping thing is just more pseudoscience in the service of marketing expensive turntables and record mats. Then you are wrong, and you haven't ever tried it, or if you have, listened closely. Easy to say, but where's the proof, Harry? Where's the reliable evidence? Anecdotes are a dime a baker's dozen! If clamping is so effective, then surely it has some measurable effect, right? The improvements in clarity and soundstaging are not subtle...at least on my Linn and Thorens they weren't. I can't think of one psuedoscience audio "innovation", including green CD pens, interconnects the size of garden hoses, and magic paint, that lacks a testimonial with similar wording. Convince me that this isn't more of the same! |
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#93
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 29, 3:51*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 28, 5:17 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in ... Clamps don't improve isolation. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Must not be what you mean, because you can't change the stiffness of vinyl without changing the vinyl itself. No it is exactly what I mean. Hold a vinyl record in the air and try to flex it. It is quite easy. Now place it against a platter and couple it with a record clamp. It won't flex in the direction of the platter. so it is effectively stiffer. However, this is not a real-world example because we *never* hold a vinyl record in the air and try *to play it. Well, maybe some crazed enthusiast has tried it, but I don't know about it! ;-) One does not need to hold a record in the air. If a record is not completely coupled to a platter there is air underneath it when it is being played. What a clamp might do is mechanically couple the vinyl to something that is stiffer than it is, which would make the vinyl part of something that is stiffer. Stiffening would raise the resonance of the vinyl sheet, which would probably move it into a frequency range where its vibration would be more audible. So, just because the LP is stiffened, is not necessarily an advantage. That is true. That is why platter design is a lot more complicated than just making it out of the stiffest material out there. Technical measurements seem to show that platter material is not all that important - many things will work. What technical measurements show that platter material isn't all that important. I'm sure many turntable designers would like to be privy to those technical measurments. One need look no further than the trouble many makers of high end turntables go through over this to get the impression that many of them think this is a critical issue. It would seem the folks at Continuum would vehemently disagree with you on this issue. http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/caliburnplatter.html "We have built a database of properties and measurements which now allows us to "virtually" model any platter design and determine the sonic signature by matching it to similar signatures from prior listening tests." The desigers at Continuum don't strike me as a bunch of crackpots or snakeoil salesmen, http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/aboutus.html Check out John Loton: Physics and structure design Jihn Veitz: Metalurgy and Engineering Dr. Neil McLachlan: acoustics design Here is some of what they have to say. "Many people may consider building a turntable is not rocket science. Read on! Turntable design has gone through some interesting developments over the years. The Caliburn’s design process began with the analysis of existing high- end turntable designs to identify their strengths and weaknesses. We took away the aesthetic considerations and concentrated on the physical properties of a material and it became apparent that the sonic signature of a turntable is greatly affected by the selection of materials. In the search for the perfect turntable material, Continuum Audio Laboratories analysed many commonly used materials in existing turntables such as: Wood based products - MDF, Chip Board, StoneWood, Marine Ply, Natural Timbers, both Hardwood and Softwood, exotic and native etc. Plastics - Acrylic, Methacrylate, Glass Fibre Composites, Carbon and Kevlar based composites, epoxies, urethanes and other uncommon materials. Glass/Ceramics/Stone - Naturally occurring or man made. Metals - Titanium, Aluminium, Magnesium, Tungsten, Stainless Steels, Copper, Brass, Bronze, and a host of other metals. We often see references to aeronautical alloys such as 2024-T3, 6061- T6 and 7075-T6 which have material properties that are well known and published. So too are Stainless Steel alloys and the family of advanced metals and ceramics such as Titanium Magnesium and Tungsten, Amorphous Metals etc. We also looked at a range of Magnesium Alloys and determined that commercially available Magnesium Alloys were not perfect for turntables either. Challenging problems often require the creation of purpose specific materials Caliburn advanced metallurgy The Caliburn uses advanced metallurgy and composites engineering used in the aerospace industry, to create purpose specific materials to achieve a level of performance never before realized from analogue reproduction systems. We sought the assistance of some of the finest metallurgists to discuss our unique needs. In conjunction with materials engineer, John Vietz (see Design Team), these specialists worked out a formulation for a unique alloy specification, which has been tailored to address the needs of a turntable and tonearm combination. We realised early on that to build stiffness and damping into a design required the use of metals which behaved differently to carbon fibre composites, wood based products, masonry (granite, marble etc) and plastics. This led to the creation of a new alloy using Magnesium as the primary material with trace elements of other alloying materials to create the right mix of properties. To verify our design we then prototyped the Caliburn turntable shape out of readily available aeronautical alloys and compared that to an identical prototype using our newly forged “Caliburn” Magnesium Alloy. The result was a significant improvement in real world audiophile performance between the purpose built “Caliburn” Alloy and the commercial alloy. Spatial information retrieval, timbre and tone accuracy, absence of high frequency distortion etc etc." It seems like some pretty legitimate scientists and engineers did some pretty extensive research and drew very different conclusions from yours. It is fair to point out that their research is not, to the best of my knowldge, made public. But that is understandable since they are developing proprietary technology. I could understand their reluctance to share the sepcifics. OTOH this would be one elaborate hoax involving the reputations of legitimate engineers and scientists if it were all B.S. Platters and mats need to be damped *and need to be carefully designed with careful choice of materials to insure complimentary internal resonant frequencies. You don't want a platter that rings like a bell. Actually, I've had several platters that rang pretty nicely if I held them in the air. Some were made out of steel sheet and also die cast aluminum or similar metal. Well I don't. There are some designs out there with some pretty stiff undamped light weight platters. I tend to find these designs to be noticeably unpleasantly colored. You will find this a common design feature in the Rega line of turntables. Sorry Arny. Nothing personal. But I don't like the Regas. I posted both a frequency sweep (well known means for exciting resonances) and a dynamic range test of a Rega atwww.pcavtech.com. See any resonances in actual use? I couldn't find the test. But even if I did how would you figure what variances are due specifically to the effects of platter resonances? I am assuming you did not get a razor flat frequency response. 2. they allow for better damping of the vinyl. This would only happen if the vinyl were put into more intimate contact with something that is itself dampening. The degree of clamping would need to be optimized, not too little, not too much. If the record is clamped to the damper too tightly, then the damping due to sliding between the two elements would be lost. You are absolutely right here. that is why we often find the most successful designs incorporate clamps that are specifically designed to go with the platter. "Going with the platter" does not ensure what I am talking about. *However, there's plenty of evidence that exotic matched and damped platters are solutions looking for problems. Could you show us this evidence? If you have a stiff, well damped platter, those characteristics will better transcribe to the vinyl when better coupled to the platter. If this vibration of the LP has no audible effects, then dampening this vibration will have no audible effects. That is true but we can't get around the fact that the stylus is riding the vinyl. Actual tests would show any problems that were audible. What actual tests are you refering to? Clealry any added vibration to the vinyl will be fed directly into the stylus. Only if it happens to an audible degree. Ever wonder why exotic LP playback equipment provide zero technical tests for their products, I would be more interested in independent test results. and Stereophile has AFAIK only done one? *Technical testing would not show a real-world advantage for a lot of expensive tool work and materials. It's audio jewelry, plain and simple. Something is responsible for the unique sonic signatures of all turntables and pickup arms. Also the stylus is putting energy directly into the vinyl. If the vinyl is flexing that is very bad. If it is taking that energy that is being directly applied to it and reflecting it back because the vinyl is coupled to a stiff undamped platter that rings like a bell, you have yet another significant coloration. turntable design is a pretty complicated endeavor. Actually, there's nothing at all inherently complicated about turntable design. Nothing new of technical significance has been seen in decades. I suggest anyone who believes this carefully comb the Continuum website. Links are already provided. When measuring the frequency response and noise from a LP, these vibrations should have some measurable effects. I can't remember seeing any, and see no signs of them in the published test results we have discussed. Note that these measurements *do* pick up vibrations that are very tiny. Many of the vibrations that we *can* measure are masked by other sound sources including the music that is recorded on the LP. How do determine what is causing what when you look at your measurements? Well, we know what was put on the test record. Not exactly. We don't know what distortions or their exact source went into the cutting and plating and pressing of any test record. The input to the cutting lathe is reported by the engineer who made the recording. The contents of the recorded disk can be determined using a microscope. How? *We're hoping that when we play the test record, the input to the cutting lathe is what comes back. If something is missing or else shows up, then that's not good. Any given test record is subject to any shortcomings of the cutting engineer or the specific equipment used. There is no getting around that fact. I am confident that the latest HFN test record is at least one of the best ones out there though. Vis-a-vis these alleged vibration problems, that can't be detected: When evidence of a problem is so universally absent, there is no causality to be determined. I can explain why *it doesn't happen. I can't explain why it should happen. I think the folks at Continuum along with a whole host of other turntable designers would disagree. There are the folks at SME http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/Model-302-1314.shtml Here is something they say about the subject "the design of the Model 30/2 takes special account of sonic considerations and with equipment of comparable quality can provide a listening experience that allows L.P. sound to be re-assessed. Detail, resolution, and neutrality are of a new order with a dynamic range that does justice to the original sound. The laws of physics decree that the higher the mass and stiffness of a body the less it will flex and vibrate - and this is reflected throughout the Model 30/2. The sub-chassis is machined from 19mm thick aluminium alloy plate and weighs approximately 17kg while the base with its four supporting pillars adds a further 16kg. This offers the high mass and stiffness required for uncoloured reproduction further aided by efficient extensional damping of both components to reduce the amplitude and duration of their vibrational modes. In conventional turntables metal supporting springs often contribute significantly to colouration. Sometimes even their size and nature can be identified by an experienced ear!" The thing is isolation and damping achieve similar results, the reduction of added vibration to the system. I'm surprised that clamps don't help flatten records out. One of the rather obvious problems of the LP is jitter or FM distortion due to the LP not being perfectly flat. Thank you for adding that. Clamps also help flatten out records. But, they only help somewhat - they are not a solution. It is ironic that so much is made of jitter in digital equipment that is 100 dB down or more, and so little is made of similar jitter from LPs that is only 30 to 50 dB down. Another Mulligan, I think. :-( It seems you are trying to make very little of it. Clearly it is a priority to any number of high end turntable designers and manufacturers. |
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#94
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wrote in message
... On Oct 29, 3:51 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 28, 5:17 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in ... Clamps don't improve isolation. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Must not be what you mean, because you can't change the stiffness of vinyl without changing the vinyl itself. No it is exactly what I mean. Hold a vinyl record in the air and try to flex it. It is quite easy. Now place it against a platter and couple it with a record clamp. It won't flex in the direction of the platter. so it is effectively stiffer. However, this is not a real-world example because we *never* hold a vinyl record in the air and try to play it. Well, maybe some crazed enthusiast has tried it, but I don't know about it! ;-) One does not need to hold a record in the air. If a record is not completely coupled to a platter there is air underneath it when it is being played. This is always true, unless perhaps you have your turntable in a high vacuum chamber. What a clamp might do is mechanically couple the vinyl to something that is stiffer than it is, which would make the vinyl part of something that is stiffer. Stiffening would raise the resonance of the vinyl sheet, which would probably move it into a frequency range where its vibration would be more audible. So, just because the LP is stiffened, is not necessarily an advantage. That is true. That is why platter design is a lot more complicated than just making it out of the stiffest material out there. Technical measurements seem to show that platter material is not all that important - many things will work. What technical measurements show that platter material isn't all that important. Says who and why? I'm sure many turntable designers would like to be privy to those technical measurements. Nothing but indifference and sloth prevents them from making those measurements for themselves, or hiring a qualified lab to do them. One need look no further than the trouble many makers of high end turntables go through over this to get the impression that many of them think this is a critical issue. What people think is meaningless. Many people still think that green CD pens affect sound quality. So what? It would seem the folks at Continuum would vehemently disagree with you on this issue. They get to disagree with general knowledge about sound and vibration at their own risk. http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/caliburnplatter.html I see a lot of vague claims, with zero real-world proof of performance. Why am I not surprised? "We have built a database of properties and measurements which now allows us to "virtually" model any platter design and determine the sonic signature by matching it to similar signatures from prior listening tests." The designers at Continuum don't strike me as a bunch of crackpots or snakeoil salesmen, http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/aboutus.html They don't seem to understand the concept of "Technical proof of performance", or at least they don't feel obliged to demonstrate it. Check out John Loton: Physics and structure design Jihn Veitz: Metalurgy and Engineering Dr. Neil McLachlan: acoustics design Here is some of what they have to say. "Many people may consider building a turntable is not rocket science. Read on! Meaningless without reliable evidence about what happens when the stylus hits the vinyl. Turntable design has gone through some interesting developments over the years. Mostly paid anecdote, hype and hyperbole. Almost entirely so. Where's the beef? :-( |
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#95
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ScottW wrote (about turntable center clamps):
If I am envisioning the idea correctly, you're attempting to cup the vinyl (deflect it down slightly against the platter) by a clamp with a down force ring outside a up rim in the platter. You can't actually force the vinyl down all around as doing so will reduce the circumference and require a material that can be compressed. That's interesting reasoning, but it's in the same class as calculations that show bumblebees can't fly. Let's look at how things work in the real world. A good example is the Oracle turntable clamping system. This uses a threaded center clamp and turntable mat of a material similar to Sorbothane. This system is so effective that - after an LP has been clamped and played - it is often necessary to literally peel the LP off of the mat. So, yes, LPs can be effectively clamped to a mat or turntable platter and yes, it makes a difference. |
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#96
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Methinks that this whole LP damping thing is just more pseudoscience in the service of marketing expensive turntables and record mats. Then you are wrong, and you haven't ever tried it, or if you have, listened closely. Easy to say, but where's the proof, Harry? Where's the reliable evidence? Anecdotes are a dime a baker's dozen! If clamping is so effective, then surely it has some measurable effect, right? The improvements in clarity and soundstaging are not subtle...at least on my Linn and Thorens they weren't. I can't think of one psuedoscience audio "innovation", including green CD pens, interconnects the size of garden hoses, and magic paint, that lacks a testimonial with similar wording. Convince me that this isn't more of the same! MEthinks thou doeth protest to much. You made an assertion as if it were fact. I am making a counter-assertion...based on the fact that I could consistently hear a difference. You are the one making the claim that clamps make no audible difference and are more snake oil. Back it up? Where is YOUR proof that your assertion is true? You haven't even denied my assertion that you may never have listened to a clamp. By the way? "Pseudoscience"? Once again you are showing that you are not objective, since you have not begun to "prove" that your assertion is based on anything, much less scientific proof! |
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#97
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Arny Krueger wrote:
Where's the reliable evidence? Anecdotes are a dime a baker's dozen! If clamping is so effective, then surely it has some measurable effect, right? The best test I've seen is: Toole, Floyd and Ian G. Masters. "Audiolab: Special Report: Record Support Systems." Audio Canada. October 1981 (The periodical may be indexed at your library under the title of AudioScene Canada) The most significant finding was that acoustic pickup was much lower with heavy records than with lightweight records. The Oracle mat and clamp system was found to be highly effective on a lightweight RCA Dynaflex record. Acoustic pickup was reduced to a level comparable to a heavyweight record. Middleweight records did not improve as much. A middleweight record with the clamp was not as good as the lightweight disc with the clamp. Heavyweight records showed no significant benefit from the use of the clamp. They did single-blind subjective tests as well as measurements. Peter. -- |
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#98
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:17:14 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): wrote in message ... Clamps don't improve isolation. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Must not be what you mean, because you can't change the stiffness of vinyl without changing the vinyl itself. What a clamp might do is mechanically couple the vinyl to something that is stiffer than it is, which would make the vinyl part of something that is stiffer. Stiffening would raise the resonance of the vinyl sheet, which would probably move it into a frequency range where its vibration would be more audible. So, just because the LP is stiffened, is not necessarily an advantage. Hmm. coupling the record more closely to the turntable (especially if said table were some kind of plastic, itself) is not to make the record "stiffer" but rather to increase the mass of the of record and thereby lower the frequency of the vinyl's resonance to below audibility, while simultaneously dampening said resonance. Of course, all of this is to a degree as not all clamps or clamping methods are perfect. To the degree that one can mate the vinyl record with the material of the platter under it, there will usually be some modicum of improvement, but obviously, ideally, the only way to maximize this ploy would be to make the playing surface of the record an the massive platter structure one. Highly impractical. 2. they allow for better damping of the vinyl. This would only happen if the vinyl were put into more intimate contact with something that is itself dampening. The degree of clamping would need to be optimized, not too little, not too much. If the record is clamped to the damper too tightly, then the damping due to sliding between the two elements would be lost. Clamping a record to the platter allows the record to literally take on more of the characteristics of that platter. If that is what you mean by improving the stiffness of the vinyl, then yes this can happen. If you have a stiff, well damped platter, those characteristics will better transcribe to the vinyl when better coupled to the platter. If this vibration of the LP has no audible effects, then dampening this vibration will have no audible effects. But it does. LPs do resonate and that resonance affects how much information in the groove results in an analogous voltage output from the cartridge. It can accentuate some frequencies and diminish others, depending upon the phase relationships between the vinyl resonances and the movement of the stylus. I've seen tremendous, and by that I mean astonishing differences in the quantity and quality of bass elicited from an LP just by increasing the mass of the turntable mat. (anecdote alert!) I once had a belt drive Thorens table. When the first Telarc LP of the Holst suites for band came out (the record with the huge bass drum whacks!) I was disappointed that they didn't sound as impressive as I remembered hearing them in the Soundstream room at the AES in NYC earlier that year. Someone suggested that I buy a new turntable mat made by a company called Nagaoka (IIRC) or some such. This thick mat weighed a ton. It was made of rubber that had ben mixed with lead filings. I placed it on my Thorens table and noticed that it pushed the table so close to the plinth, that it almost rubbed. I put the Telarc on the table and placed the stylus just before the first drum whack (easily seen on the record due the coarse pitch of the grooves at that point). When the whack came. I was astounded! it was much louder and much louder than the same whack with the supplied Thorens mat. Needless to say, we went back and forth between mats that day to amke sure that we weren't hallucinating or experience some "new gear" syndrome. We weren't. The difference was so great that one of us could stand in the bedroom while the other switched mats (or not) and correctly call when the Nagaoka mat was on the table - every time. When measuring the frequency response and noise from a LP, these vibrations should have some measurable effects. I can't remember seeing any, and see no signs of them in the published test results we have discussed. Note that these measurements *do* pick up vibrations that are very tiny. Many of the vibrations that we *can* measure are masked by other sound sources including the music that is recorded on the LP. The thing is isolation and damping achieve similar results, the reduction of added vibration to the system. I'm surprised that clamps don't help flatten records out. One of the rather obvious problems of the LP is jitter or FM distortion due to the LP not being perfectly flat. The only 'tables I've ever seen tackle that problem even semi-successfully were tables that used a vacuum hold-down. Even most of those that were ever on the market were not sufficiently powerful enough to do the job properly. An Ideal 'table would have a powerful (but totally silent) vacuum hold-down and a system that could detect and correct for record eccentricity. Tables that did either of those things have been sold, but I've never seen one that did both simultaneously. |
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#99
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#100
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:16:46 -0700, ScottW wrote
(in article ): wrote in message ... On Oct 25, 7:28?am, "C. Leeds" wrote: ScottW wrote: Clamping something as pliable as vinyl as far from the sylus as a record clamp typically is...is simply futile Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. LP clamping is a very effective means of improving isolation, from the simple screw down clamps (such as was popularized by Oracle) to the more elaborate peripheral clamps, such as VPIs. As you yourself note: ?Effective isolation is easily confirmed... Those who've experimented with these clamping systems can confirm their effectiveness. Clamps don't improve isolation. Exactly, If anything it must diminish it by improving coupling to the platter. This may change the resonance of the system but not at the distance and with a material as compliant as vinyl. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Only if you sandwiched the entire record. Vinyl is pretty compliant and as such wont conduct vibration or force over any distance in the vertical axis or thinnest dimension of the record. A clamp at the center won't improve coupling of the record to the platter inches away. It may help a little, and is probably better than no clamping at all. But I must admit that I've never seen any studies that show this to be so. |
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#101
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On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:22:00 -0700, Harry Lavo wrote
(in article ): "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Methinks that this whole LP damping thing is just more pseudoscience in the service of marketing expensive turntables and record mats. Then you are wrong, and you haven't ever tried it, or if you have, listened closely. The improvements in clarity and soundstaging are not subtle...at least on my Linn and Thorens they weren't. You are right. Vinyl playback, being an electro-mechanical endeavor is fraught with problems caused by the interaction of the record with the platter, the record with the stylus, the stylus with the cartridge body, and the cartridge body with the arm. Even air and structure born feedback from the speakers affect the resonances that add to or subtract from the vectored output at the point where stylus motion is converted to voltage. EVERYTHING affects it. |
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#102
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Rob Tweed wrote:
For those of you who really believe that LP sound represents the ultimate sonic experience, I'd suggest that your sought-after nirvana will only be truly reached if you have a contactless, non-mechanical way of reading the LP grooves. Someone posted a link to a laser-based LP player on this newsgroup some time ago. Eye-wateringly expensive if I remember! Laser beam LP playback is still vulnerable to dust or other foreign matter on in the groove...perhaps even more sensitive to it than a stylus. However, as one of Mr Sullivan's links implied, remember that this same process of induced signal will have occurred during the vinyl master cutting process, but you'll be unable to do anything about it! As many have noted in the past, it's really a wonder the Rube Goldberg contraption that is the LP production/playback chain, sounds as good as it does at all. -- -S I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life -- Leo Tolstoy |
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#103
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Rob Tweed wrote:
....and high-end audio is now in the reach of anyone without the need to take out a mortgage, which, in my view, is very good news. Agreed - lowering the cost of quality audio is very good news indeed. Of course, the best full-range speakers are still expensive. Of course there's still lots of companies prepared to convince you to cough up ludicrous amounts of cash to hear things marginally better. "Ludicrous amounts of cash" is a subjective judgment, for sure. In any event, spending good money for incremental improvement is part of what high-end audio is all about. Saying the result is only "marginally better" is also a subjective judgment. What's marginal for you may be substantial to another listener. |
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#104
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On Oct 30, 4:38�pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 29, 3:51 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 28, 5:17 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: wrote in ... Clamps don't improve isolation. They do couple the records to the vinyl which achieves two things depending on the nature of the platter. 1. They improve the stiffness of the vinyl Must not be what you mean, because you can't change the stiffness of vinyl without changing the vinyl itself. No it is exactly what I mean. Hold a vinyl record in the air and try to flex it. It is quite easy. Now place it against a platter and couple it with a record clamp. It won't flex in the direction of the platter. so it is effectively stiffer. However, this is not a real-world example because we *never* hold a vinyl record in the air and try to play it. Well, maybe some crazed enthusiast has tried it, but I don't know about it! ;-) One does not need to hold a record in the air. If a record is not completely coupled to a platter there is air underneath it when it is being played. This is always true, unless perhaps you have your turntable in a high vacuum chamber. A number of turntables actually do use a vacuum clamp to address this. What a clamp might do is mechanically couple the vinyl to something that is stiffer than it is, which would make the vinyl part of something that is stiffer. Stiffening would raise the resonance of the vinyl sheet, which would probably move it into a frequency range where its vibration would be more audible. So, just because the LP is stiffened, is not necessarily an advantage. That is true. That is why platter design is a lot more complicated than just making it out of the stiffest material out there. Technical measurements seem to show that platter material is not all that important - many things will work. What technical measurements show that platter material isn't all that important. Says who You. Just read your own words a few posts back. and why? Perhaps you can answer that question since it was your assertion. I'm sure many turntable designers would like to be privy to those technical measurements. Nothing but indifference and sloth prevents them from making those measurements for themselves, or hiring a qualified lab to do them. I think the complete absense of the technical measurments you allege exist might also be an obstacle. I couldn't find them. Perhaps if you could produce them we'd know what it is you are talking about. One need look no further than the trouble many makers of high end turntables go through over this to get the impression that many of them think this is a critical issue. What people think is meaningless. In this case we are talking about the designers of turntables and pickup arms. So your position is that their beliefs on materials used in their designs is meaningless. I'll just let that stand on it's own. It would seem the folks at Continuum would vehemently disagree with you on this issue. They get to disagree with general knowledge about sound and vibration at their own risk. What "general knowledge" is that? The physics is pretty simple when it comes to vibration and damping vibration and it clearly favors the position held by the folks designing turntables. The position that vibrations in a platter and the damping of those vibrations can and often do affect the movement of the stylus in the record groove in an audible way. |
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#105
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#106
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On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 18:21:30 -0700, C. Leeds wrote
(in article ): Rob Tweed wrote: ....and high-end audio is now in the reach of anyone without the need to take out a mortgage, which, in my view, is very good news. Agreed - lowering the cost of quality audio is very good news indeed. Of course, the best full-range speakers are still expensive. And that's where I advise people to put the lion's share of their audio dollars. |
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#107
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On 31 Oct 2008 01:20:57 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:
Rob Tweed wrote: For those of you who really believe that LP sound represents the ultimate sonic experience, I'd suggest that your sought-after nirvana will only be truly reached if you have a contactless, non-mechanical way of reading the LP grooves. Someone posted a link to a laser-based LP player on this newsgroup some time ago. Eye-wateringly expensive if I remember! Laser beam LP playback is still vulnerable to dust or other foreign matter on in the groove...perhaps even more sensitive to it than a stylus. Very true. Ah those wonderful hours spent trying to get dust out of your LP grooves, and you still found a great blob of it round the stylus by the end of the LP no matter what you did, and you still heard clicks and that awful groove noise on even your best cared-for discs. And that whole marketplace of gadgets and contrraptions that claimed to restore your precious LPs to pristine condition. Anyone want an old dust-bug? :-) And god help you if you ever made the mistake of lending an LP to a mate....! However, as one of Mr Sullivan's links implied, remember that this same process of induced signal will have occurred during the vinyl master cutting process, but you'll be unable to do anything about it! As many have noted in the past, it's really a wonder the Rube Goldberg contraption that is the LP production/playback chain, sounds as good as it does at all. Very true Steven, hats off to the technology and ingenuity that made it possible. But (as you can no doubt tell) I, for one, have little or no nostalgia for the LP, except that the great album cover art of the 70s and 80s looked much better as a 12 inch square rather than the postage-stamp size we now get on CD cases! --- Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com |
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#108
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On Oct 31, 6:07�am, Andrew Barss wrote:
wrote: : In this case we are talking about the designers of turntables and : pickup arms. So your position is that their beliefs on materials used : in their designs is meaningless. I'll just let that stand on it's own. Their asserted beliefs may be heartfelt (or they may be callous lies used to help sell $50,000 turntables to ignorant but passionate afficionados). Do you really think the folks at SME are callous liars or the design team from Continuum are ignorant? Please check these links before answering. http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/aboutus.html Page through the "meet the team" section. I really doubt those guys are ignorant. But belief isn't knowledge, as we've known since Plato. If there is an audible effect, it would be easy for any decent percentual psychologist to demonstrate in a lab with a double-blind test. � To date, as I understand it, no such experimental proof has been forthcoming. � Given the fact that one such test has already been posted on this thread I think it may be fair to say that your understanding may just be a bit incomplete. But if you have any knowledge of any experimental proof in the way of blind tests that suggest there is no audible differences among different turntable designs or that materials used make no audible difference please post it. Those pricey turntables sure are pretty, though. Some are. I wish mine was better looking. |
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#109
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wrote in message
On Oct 31, 6:07�am, Andrew Barss wrote: wrote: In this case we are talking about the designers of turntables and pickup arms. So your position is that their beliefs on materials used in their designs is meaningless. I'll just let that stand on it's own. Their asserted beliefs may be heartfelt (or they may be callous lies used to help sell $50,000 turntables to ignorant but passionate afficionados). Do you really think the folks at SME are callous liars or the design team from Continuum are ignorant? I see no objective evidence that these tone arms provide lower distortion or noise than *any* other tone arm with reasonable quality. They are "Audio Jewelry" plain and simple. I see no reliable subjective evidence, either. For the purposes of this discussion, let the tonearm on my PCAVtech - tested Rega turntable be the standard. Anybody who as some well-done technical tests or a time-synched, level-matched double-blind test result of tonearms, please post now or forever hold your peace! |
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#110
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Arny Krueger wrote:
I see no objective evidence that these tone arms provide lower distortion or noise than *any* other tone arm with reasonable quality. They are "Audio Jewelry" plain and simple. I see no reliable subjective evidence, either. For the purposes of this discussion, let the tonearm on my PCAVtech - tested Rega turntable be the standard. Anybody who as some well-done technical tests or a time-synched, level-matched double-blind test result of tonearms, please post now or forever hold your peace! Let me get this straight. You're demanding participants undertake an elaborate and difficult double-blind test to support their assertions, or otherwise "forever" (!) hold their peace while - at the same time - you respond to a request for meaningful quotes from material you cited by stating: I have zero reason to believe that any source I cite will receive fair, insightful treatment. Therefore, I have zero motivation to do people's homework for them. So, you don't do "homework" for others, yet reserve for yourself the right to make demands that others perform your research? And I can't help but note that what was asked of you was an apparently trivial undertaking, while you insist on an underatking that is beyond the capability of the average audiophile. And that's the problem with this discussion: it runs in circles and goes nowhere. There is no dialog, only claims, counterclaims, thinly-veiled name calling, posturing and pronouncements. So, Mr. Krueger, I will not conduct your research for you because I'm satisfied with the research I've already done. Neither do I accept your demand that I "forever hold my peace" for declining to do your research. |
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#111
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Sonnova wrote:
...Vinyl playback, being an electro-mechanical endeavor is fraught with problems caused by the interaction of the record with the platter, the record with the stylus, the stylus with the cartridge body, and the cartridge body with the arm. Even air and structure born feedback from the speakers affect the resonances that add to or subtract from the vectored output at the point where stylus motion is converted to voltage. EVERYTHING affects it. These things can affect LP playback, but the problems you cite are not insurmountable. For that matter, the CD itself is also "fraught with problems." But those difficulties are not inherent either. |
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#112
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"C. Leeds" wrote in message
... Arny Krueger wrote: snip So, you don't do "homework" for others, yet reserve for yourself the right to make demands that others perform your research? And I can't help but note that what was asked of you was an apparently trivial undertaking, while you insist on an underatking that is beyond the capability of the average audiophile. And that's the problem with this discussion: it runs in circles and goes nowhere. There is no dialog, only claims, counterclaims, thinly-veiled name calling, posturing and pronouncements. So, Mr. Krueger, I will not conduct your research for you because I'm satisfied with the research I've already done. Neither do I accept your demand that I "forever hold my peace" for declining to do your research. What you are running into here is the difference between science and zealotry in the name of science. Several posters here have repeatedly shown that they don't understand the difference. |
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#113
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Rob Tweed wrote:
...Ah those wonderful hours spent trying to get dust out of your LP grooves, and you still found a great blob of it round the stylus by the end of the LP no matter what you did... A proper cleaning protocol will not produce this result. ... and you still heard clicks and that awful groove noise on even your best cared-for discs. This sounds like a reflection of your cleaning protocol, even though I'm not sure what "groove noise" is. I, for one, have little or no nostalgia for the LP... That's easy to understand, given the problems you've explained. |
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#114
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"Sonnova" wrote in message
You are right. Vinyl playback, being an electro-mechanical endeavor is fraught with problems caused by the interaction of the record with the platter, the record with the stylus, the stylus with the cartridge body, and the cartridge body with the arm. Even air and structure born feedback from the speakers affect the resonances that add to or subtract from the vectored output at the point where stylus motion is converted to voltage. EVERYTHING affects it. Everything affects *everything* in this universe. Clench your err... jaw, and through the magic of scientific notation, there is a calculable effect on Alpha Centuri. I've measured the electrical current generated when you vibrate a table that has an interconnect lying on it. It was really small, but I could measure it and even do a spectral analysis of it. But that's not the most important question. The most important question is does it make something sound better? And, if there is no reliably audible difference, then it doesn't make things sound better. |
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#115
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 31, 10:16�am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
wrote in message On Oct 31, 6:07 am, Andrew Barss wrote: wrote: In this case we are talking about the designers of turntables and pickup arms. So your position is that their beliefs on materials used in their designs is meaningless. I'll just let that stand on it's own. Their asserted beliefs may be heartfelt (or they may be callous lies used to help sell $50,000 turntables to ignorant but passionate afficionados). Do you really think the folks at SME are callous liars or the design team from Continuum are ignorant? I see no objective evidence that these tone arms provide lower distortion or noise than *any* other tone arm with reasonable quality. This is yet another argument that uses faulty logic. 11. The Moving Goalpost A method of denial arbitrarily moving the criteria for "proof" or acceptance out of range of whatever evidence currently exists. http://www.theskepticsguide.org/logicalfallacies.asp But in this case you go even further and use your personal knowledge as some sort of reference for all evidence that currently exists. Given the fact that you were unaware of the study posted on this thread "Toole, Floyd and Ian G. Masters. "Audiolab: Special Report: Record Support Systems." Audio Canada. October 1981." A study that used double blind listening tests and wrought results that run contrary to your assertions, I think it is fair to say the reality of the situation is quite indepependant of your knowledge base. |
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#116
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Andrew Barss wrote:
Their asserted beliefs may be heartfelt (or they may be callous lies used to help sell $50,000 turntables to ignorant but passionate afficionados)... If there is an audible effect, it would be easy for any decent percentual psychologist to demonstrate in a lab with a double-blind test. I don't know what a percentual psychologist is, or what his familiarity with audio would be. But I can tell you this: conducting meaningful double-blind tests of turntables and tonearms would be an elaborate, difficult undertaking. Even if performed successfully, it would be of little value to those who are already satisfied with their own, less stringent, tests. Of course, please feel free to conduct your own tests, and post the results here. They would be interesting to review. |
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#117
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
... wrote in message On Oct 31, 6:07�am, Andrew Barss wrote: wrote: In this case we are talking about the designers of turntables and pickup arms. So your position is that their beliefs on materials used in their designs is meaningless. I'll just let that stand on it's own. Their asserted beliefs may be heartfelt (or they may be callous lies used to help sell $50,000 turntables to ignorant but passionate afficionados). Do you really think the folks at SME are callous liars or the design team from Continuum are ignorant? I see no objective evidence that these tone arms provide lower distortion or noise than *any* other tone arm with reasonable quality. They are "Audio Jewelry" plain and simple. I see no reliable subjective evidence, either. For the purposes of this discussion, let the tonearm on my PCAVtech - tested Rega turntable be the standard. Anybody who as some well-done technical tests or a time-synched, level-matched double-blind test result of tonearms, please post now or forever hold your peace! I'm sorry, Arny, but you are the one claiming "no difference" versus an almost universal belief among vinyl users that tonearms can make a substantial difference in clarity and tonal balance, in addition to the usual mechanical aspects such as resonant frequency, anti0skating, mass, etc. It is up to you to back YOUR claim with a dbt showing "no difference" under perfectly controlled and variable-neutral conditions. |
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#118
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:16:53 -0700, C. Leeds wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: ...Vinyl playback, being an electro-mechanical endeavor is fraught with problems caused by the interaction of the record with the platter, the record with the stylus, the stylus with the cartridge body, and the cartridge body with the arm. Even air and structure born feedback from the speakers affect the resonances that add to or subtract from the vectored output at the point where stylus motion is converted to voltage. EVERYTHING affects it. These things can affect LP playback, but the problems you cite are not insurmountable. For that matter, the CD itself is also "fraught with problems." But those difficulties are not inherent either. My point was that proper LP playback is not as trivial and Arny seems to think it is. Of course, these difficulties aren't insurmountable but neither are they irrelevant or simple. |
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#119
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:28:18 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message You are right. Vinyl playback, being an electro-mechanical endeavor is fraught with problems caused by the interaction of the record with the platter, the record with the stylus, the stylus with the cartridge body, and the cartridge body with the arm. Even air and structure born feedback from the speakers affect the resonances that add to or subtract from the vectored output at the point where stylus motion is converted to voltage. EVERYTHING affects it. Everything affects *everything* in this universe. Clench your err... jaw, and through the magic of scientific notation, there is a calculable effect on Alpha Centuri. I've measured the electrical current generated when you vibrate a table that has an interconnect lying on it. It was really small, but I could measure it and even do a spectral analysis of it. But that's not the most important question. The most important question is does it make something sound better? And, if there is no reliably audible difference, then it doesn't make things sound better. But it HAS to affect the sound. It either reinforces or subtracts amplitude at certain frequencies. |
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#120
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"Rob Tweed" wrote in message
... On 31 Oct 2008 01:20:57 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote: Rob Tweed wrote: snip Very true. Ah those wonderful hours spent trying to get dust out of your LP grooves, and you still found a great blob of it round the stylus by the end of the LP no matter what you did, and you still heard clicks and that awful groove noise on even your best cared-for discs. And that whole marketplace of gadgets and contrraptions that claimed to restore your precious LPs to pristine condition. Anyone want an old dust-bug? :-) And god help you if you ever made the mistake of lending an LP to a mate....! I just put Judy Collins "Judith" on the turntable yesterday.... a record that has been one of my most played, but one that has also been "Last"-treated since it was new in 1975 or shortly thereafter. I listened at the moderate (but not soft) level I normally do, and heard neither surface noise nor scratches/pops until the last track, when one small barely audible "pop" made itself known. If you were an audiophile back in the sixties and seventies and treated your records as well as they could be treated, you can still enjoy vinyl today that is relatively clear of extraneous noise. And the rewards are substantial....I can't put the record on without sitting to listen to the whole side (especially side one, which ends with "Send in the Clowns")..the superb music and audio reproduction just draw me in. On the other hand, I have the CD and the few times I have played it my attention has wandered immediately, and I don't think I've listened to it all the way through. I can understand why those who collected and mistreated their records and played them on cheap phonos with conical stylii welcomed the CD era....but I'm afraid for many that has turned into bigotry agains the LP simply because they never experienced the joy. And new audiophiles who wax ecstatic over the virtuals of vinyl are simply discovering that joy. snip Rob Tweed Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd Registered in England: No 3220901 Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com |
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