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#1
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Hello,
I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. - I prefer Metal Position tapes (TYPE IV) to preserve the power of 80s records as much as possible. So from late 70s (Disco era), through 80s, and especially 90s and 2000s music on vinyl, I find metal tapes keep as much richness as possible. The problem is I find hard (or almost impossible) to find Metal tapes, or even Chromium tapes, these days, and finding a new high-end tape deck seems more of a challenge. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Thanks for sharing any experience. |
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 17, 6:21*pm, wrote:
Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. - I prefer Metal Position tapes (TYPE IV) to preserve the power of 80s records as much as possible. So from late 70s (Disco era), through 80s, and especially 90s and 2000s music on vinyl, I find metal tapes keep as much richness as possible. The problem is I find hard (or almost impossible) to find Metal tapes, or even Chromium tapes, these days, and finding a new high-end tape deck seems more of a challenge. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Thanks for sharing any experience. You are really going down a path that few are traveling. Cassette tapes are disappearing because of the perception that digital recordings are considerably better than cassette recordings. Measurements can easily show that to be the case but they are not necessarily convincing. However, have you tried to make digital recordings (using reasonably modern hardware) of your LPs and if so have you been able to differentiate reliably between the LP and the digital recording of it in some fashion to minimize sighted bias? The sad truth regarding your situation is that analog recording media are rapidly disappearing and there is little reason to assume that high-quality analog media will be available in the future. Even recording studios are currently having a hard time getting good media for their 24-track analog tape systems because of the move to digital by a preponderance of the other studios and tape manufacturers are discontinuing production. Most new recordings will be recorded digitally or will have at least had some digitital processing and can't be considered purely analog recordings. You might find that digital recordings of your LPs won't sound all that bad! :-) |
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#3
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
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#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
wrote in message
Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. I've got a lot of experience with recording fresh material onto cassettes. I'm talking 100's of recordings over a goodly number of years. When I go back and audition them, they are an embarassment compared to what I do today with the same sources recorded digitally. The cassette format is incapable of what I consider to be high fidelity. If the noise and lack of dynamic range doesn't drive you away, the modulation noise should. As little as I like the obvious audible limitations of the LP format, I consider putting LPs onto cassettes to be a great loss of potential sound quality. OTOH, putting LPs onto CDs is simply good stewardship of legacy musical performances. |
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#5
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
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#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
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#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:59:53 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote
(in article ): wrote: Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. You haven't noticed 'the' superior quality, you've noticed a quality that you consider to sound superior. This could be the different mastering used for LPs compared to CDs, or it could be inherent sound qualities added by the vinyl medium and playback devices, or it could be both. It is really quite *un*likely to be any inherent deficit of digital or technical superiority of LP. If this guy IS laboring under a misapprehension, then he has plenty of company. Lots of people agree with him. As I've said before, I have a number of LPs which are far better sounding than the CDs eventually released of the same performances. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Recording to digital will certainly be superior in quality to audiotapes, in terms of amount of added distortion. Quite likely if you were to compare them blind, you'd find it impossible to tell the LP from the CDR recording you made of the LP. That's rather less likely for a cassette tape recording of an LP. That's true - unless the equipment used to dub the LP to CD is inferior to the equipment used to listen to the LP, then the LP would still sound better than the CD dub of it. |
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 17, 8:04*pm, John Stone wrote:
On 10/17/08 5:21 PM, in article , " wrote: Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. - I prefer Metal Position tapes (TYPE IV) to preserve the power of 80s records as much as possible. So from late 70s (Disco era), through 80s, and especially 90s and 2000s music on vinyl, I find metal tapes keep as much richness as possible. The problem is I find hard (or almost impossible) to find Metal tapes, or even Chromium tapes, these days, and finding a new high-end tape deck seems more of a challenge. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Thanks for sharing any experience. I've recorded a number of LP's onto my computer using a fairly inexpensive sound card and Audacity, a free download. I burned these onto CD's and then compared them with the LP playing directly through the system using the same turntable and preamp that I used for the digital recording. Honestly, it's extremely difficult to hear any difference at all between the two. All the vinyl "richness" and other "superior qualities" are still there. As is the surface noise and the subsonic woofer pumping. That is DEFINITLY my experience, also. And the CD burned 'Direct-From-LP' is not only WAY better listening than the same disc in its available commercial form. It is also VERY close to listening to the vinyl plate itself. Question: I wonder how far we move 'down' or 'up' the scale of competing retail charges for the analogue set-up (TT/cart/phonostage plus recorder set- ups and corresponding and, will reproduce the same overwhelmingly clear and evident result? This is not an iff-y or 'subjective' account of musical pleasue. There is distinctly more space and air and drive and presentation, damn near everything, in the "Vinyl-Direct-To-CD." I've never played the different versions for ANYONE who fails to note a huge difference and improvement! Comments? |
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#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
John Stone wrote:
I've recorded a number of LP's onto my computer using a fairly inexpensive sound card and Audacity... All the vinyl "richness" and other "superior qualities" are still there. As is the surface noise and the subsonic woofer pumping. That's not so much the vinyl talking as it is your turntable/tonearm/cartridge. When recorded to CD from a good turntable rig, it's actually amazing how CD-like LPs actually sound. |
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On 2008-10-18, Ger wrote:
On Oct 17, 8:04Â*pm, John Stone wrote: On 10/17/08 5:21 PM, in article , " wrote: Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. - I prefer Metal Position tapes (TYPE IV) to preserve the power of 80s records as much as possible. So from late 70s (Disco era), through 80s, and especially 90s and 2000s music on vinyl, I find metal tapes keep as much richness as possible. The problem is I find hard (or almost impossible) to find Metal tapes, or even Chromium tapes, these days, and finding a new high-end tape deck seems more of a challenge. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Thanks for sharing any experience. I've recorded a number of LP's onto my computer using a fairly inexpensive sound card and Audacity, a free download. I burned these onto CD's and then compared them with the LP playing directly through the system using the same turntable and preamp that I used for the digital recording. Honestly, it's extremely difficult to hear any difference at all between the two. All the vinyl "richness" and other "superior qualities" are still there. As is the surface noise and the subsonic woofer pumping. That is DEFINITLY my experience, also. And the CD burned 'Direct-From-LP' is not only WAY better listening than the same disc in its available commercial form. It is also VERY close to listening to the vinyl plate itself. Question: I wonder how far we move 'down' or 'up' the scale of competing retail charges for the analogue set-up (TT/cart/phonostage plus recorder set- ups and corresponding and, will reproduce the same overwhelmingly clear and evident result? This is not an iff-y or 'subjective' account of musical pleasue. There is distinctly more space and air and drive and presentation, damn near everything, in the "Vinyl-Direct-To-CD." I've never played the different versions for ANYONE who fails to note a huge difference and improvement! Comments? I've tossed a couple of vinyl to cd via a cd recorder because the commercial cd was available; huge mistake as my xfer sounded better than the "newly mastered" cd. The thing is that the recording "engineers"/producers believe in messing with the original for their "musical" ideas/sound choices. The surround sound is just as gimmicky in that whoever has the power to dictate how the sound is produced; I don't believe that many people want to be "in the middle of that action/orchestra/band". |
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#11
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Very good!!
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"Sonnova" wrote in message
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:59:53 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote (in article ): wrote: Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. You haven't noticed 'the' superior quality, you've noticed a quality that you consider to sound superior. I think this is only a partial explanation. When both are exploited there is no question that the CD format can take bass to places where the LP could never go. However, in the hands of humans, that can be either the good news or the bad news. This could be the different mastering used for LPs compared to CDs, or it could be inherent sound qualities added by the vinyl medium and playback devices, or it could be both. It is really quite *un*likely to be any inherent deficit of digital or technical superiority of LP. If this guy IS laboring under a misapprehension, then he has plenty of company. Lots of people agree with him. As I've said before, I have a number of LPs which are far better sounding than the CDs eventually released of the same performances. I agree with the facts presented, but they are not necessarily representative of the respective forms of media. It's no secret that even highly-paid and well-known professional engineers and producers can make mistakes and/or expedient choices. Now adays, classical CDs are remastered by young engineers who wish they were working with Britney. In the old days cutting masters were used to master CDs because better masters couldn't be found at all, and there was a big rush to market. In-between, there were bad days and good days. The human factor can't be ignored when you don't have all the relevant facts at hand. |
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#13
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
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#14
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
John Stone wrote:
I've recorded a number of LP's onto my computer using a fairly inexpensive sound card and Audacity... All the vinyl "richness" and other "superior qualities" are still there. As is the surface noise and the subsonic woofer pumping. I answered: That's not so much the vinyl talking as it is your turntable/tonearm/cartridge. When recorded to CD from a good turntable rig, it's actually amazing how CD-like LPs actually sound. John Stone answers: ...it's hard for me to see how you can conclude from what I wrote that I've got a lousy turntable/tonearm/cartridge. I never said you had a lousy turntable/tonearm/cartridge. I said the problems you complained about are caused as much by your equipment as by your LPs. Surface noise, ticks and pops, and subsonic output on record warps are a reality with vinyl playback. Sure, if you have LPs that have been improperly handled or maintained, or if you buy your LPs used from dicey sources, or if your turntable lacks a proper clamping system, then you will have these problems, no doubt. But these problems are not really an inherent audible problem with proper LP playback. Certainly, some poorly matched arms and cartridges, and turntables with poor feedback isolation can make these problems even worse. Quite so. I've also experienced considerable differences between cartridges on audibility of surface noise. Me too. Stylus shape has a lot to do with that. As for Lp's sounding CD-like, my experience is that some do, but many don't. Agreed. Just as there are well made CDs and poorly made CDs, there are well made LPs and poorly made LPs. |
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#15
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
just me wrote:
On 2008-10-18, Ger wrote: On Oct 17, 8:04*pm, John Stone wrote: On 10/17/08 5:21 PM, in article , " wrote: Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. - I prefer Metal Position tapes (TYPE IV) to preserve the power of 80s records as much as possible. So from late 70s (Disco era), through 80s, and especially 90s and 2000s music on vinyl, I find metal tapes keep as much richness as possible. The problem is I find hard (or almost impossible) to find Metal tapes, or even Chromium tapes, these days, and finding a new high-end tape deck seems more of a challenge. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Thanks for sharing any experience. I've recorded a number of LP's onto my computer using a fairly inexpensive sound card and Audacity, a free download. I burned these onto CD's and then compared them with the LP playing directly through the system using the same turntable and preamp that I used for the digital recording. Honestly, it's extremely difficult to hear any difference at all between the two. All the vinyl "richness" and other "superior qualities" are still there. As is the surface noise and the subsonic woofer pumping. That is DEFINITLY my experience, also. And the CD burned 'Direct-From-LP' is not only WAY better listening than the same disc in its available commercial form. It is also VERY close to listening to the vinyl plate itself. Question: I wonder how far we move 'down' or 'up' the scale of competing retail charges for the analogue set-up (TT/cart/phonostage plus recorder set- ups and corresponding and, will reproduce the same overwhelmingly clear and evident result? This is not an iff-y or 'subjective' account of musical pleasue. There is distinctly more space and air and drive and presentation, damn near everything, in the "Vinyl-Direct-To-CD." I've never played the different versions for ANYONE who fails to note a huge difference and improvement! Comments? I've tossed a couple of vinyl to cd via a cd recorder because the commercial cd was available; huge mistake as my xfer sounded better than the "newly mastered" cd. The thing is that the recording "engineers"/producers believe in messing with the original for their "musical" ideas/sound choices. Well, the 'original' is the master tape version...you don't tend to hear that on LP either. The surround sound is just as gimmicky in that whoever has the power to dictate how the sound is produced; I don't believe that many people want to be "in the middle of that action/orchestra/band". Surround mixes don't necessarily do that...e.g., the surround version of the famous Kleiber Beethoven 5th doesn't. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
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#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Sonnova wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:59:53 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote (in article ): wrote: Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. You haven't noticed 'the' superior quality, you've noticed a quality that you consider to sound superior. This could be the different mastering used for LPs compared to CDs, or it could be inherent sound qualities added by the vinyl medium and playback devices, or it could be both. It is really quite *un*likely to be any inherent deficit of digital or technical superiority of LP. If this guy IS laboring under a misapprehension, then he has plenty of company. Lots of people agree with him. As I've said before, I have a number of LPs which are far better sounding than the CDs eventually released of the same performances. A widespread misapprehension -- that it's something 'wrong' with CD per se -- is still a misapprehension. It's not unusual for lots of peopel to employ faulty reasoning. Most people have no clue about what 'mastering' is in the first place, for example, and why it could account for virtually all of the difference they hear. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Recording to digital will certainly be superior in quality to audiotapes, in terms of amount of added distortion. Quite likely if you were to compare them blind, you'd find it impossible to tell the LP from the CDR recording you made of the LP. That's rather less likely for a cassette tape recording of an LP. That's true - unless the equipment used to dub the LP to CD is inferior to the equipment used to listen to the LP, then the LP would still sound better than the CD dub of it. Pathological conditions are alwyas possible, but they don't alter the truth of the principle. In the old days, one had to monitor levels, for example; one still does. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
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#17
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 20, 9:50*am, Steven Sullivan wrote:
Sonnova wrote: Quite likely if you were to compare them blind, you'd find it impossible to tell the LP from the CDR recording you made of the LP. That's rather less likely for a cassette tape recording of an I have a Pioneer standalone CD recorder which I bought secondhand on Ebay for around $250. It is coupled into my hi-fi system so that I can record direct from my turntable - a Thorens TD 126 MkII, with a Sumiko Premier tone-arm and Ortofon cartridge (plus a separate headshell with Shure N44-3 for 78 shellacs). I don't want to be endlessly lugging my turntable from living-room to computer-room, so this system suits me just fine. The Pioneer uses the special 'digital audio for consumer' CD-blanks which are a bit dearer than standard blanks, and can be difficult sometimes to find. I have however removed that difficulty by using 'digital audio for consumer CD-RW' discs, which can be reformatted and used again. After recording, I simply take the disc and pop it into the computer using EAC, and then put it through a mild declicking process using Adobe Audition. Mild only as I don't want to unduly tamper with the vinyl sound. I then burn onto a standard CD, and reformat my special RW disc for later use. The result can be breathtaking. All the great warmth and strength of the original vinyl, less the sometimes intrusive clicks and surface noise. Where I have early 'official' CD transfers of analog material, my own transfer is almost always better -- clearer and with tangible 3- dimensional presence. I think standard CD transfers in the early years were spoiled by transfer engineers who either destroyed ambience by aiming for ultra-cleanliness -- or, as with early transfers of The Rolling Stones' 60s material, and early Dylan material, by just not bothering to source the original master-tapes. So go digital for your transfers. Your ears will love you! |
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#18
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
In article ,
"C. Leeds" wrote: John Stone wrote: I've recorded a number of LP's onto my computer using a fairly inexpensive sound card and Audacity... All the vinyl "richness" and other "superior qualities" are still there. As is the surface noise and the subsonic woofer pumping. That's not so much the vinyl talking as it is your turntable/tonearm/cartridge. When recorded to CD from a good turntable rig, it's actually amazing how CD-like LPs actually sound. To the extent that there is any difference at all, it may be due to the lack of acoustic feedback from the speakers to the disc, in the case of vinyl. Isaac |
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#19
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
anthony wrote:
On Oct 20, 9:50*am, Steven Sullivan wrote: Sonnova wrote: Quite likely if you were to compare them blind, you'd find it impossible to tell the LP from the CDR recording you made of the LP. That's rather less likely for a cassette tape recording of an I have a Pioneer standalone CD recorder which I bought secondhand on Ebay for around $250. It is coupled into my hi-fi system so that I can record direct from my turntable - a Thorens TD 126 MkII, with a Sumiko Premier tone-arm and Ortofon cartridge (plus a separate headshell with Shure N44-3 for 78 shellacs). I don't want to be endlessly lugging my turntable from living-room to computer-room, so this system suits me just fine. The Pioneer uses the special 'digital audio for consumer' CD-blanks which are a bit dearer than standard blanks, and can be difficult sometimes to find. I have however removed that difficulty by using 'digital audio for consumer CD-RW' discs, which can be reformatted and used again. After recording, I simply take the disc and pop it into the computer using EAC, and then put it through a mild declicking process using Adobe Audition. Mild only as I don't want to unduly tamper with the vinyl sound. I then burn onto a standard CD, and reformat my special RW disc for later use. The result can be breathtaking. All the great warmth and strength of the original vinyl, less the sometimes intrusive clicks and surface noise. Where I have early 'official' CD transfers of analog material, my own transfer is almost always better -- clearer and with tangible 3- dimensional presence. I think standard CD transfers in the early years were spoiled by transfer engineers who either destroyed ambience by aiming for ultra-cleanliness -- or, as with early transfers of The Rolling Stones' 60s material, and early Dylan material, by just not bothering to source the original master-tapes. 'Ambience' on a pop/rock studio recordings is usually artificial anyway. It's added by the recording engineer(s) For live recordings, a 'clean' digital 2-channel recording will capture the original 'ambience' as well as the master tape did (which is to say, only moderately well, given the limits of 2-channel) -- but transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
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#20
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 17, 6:21*pm, wrote:
Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. - I prefer Metal Position tapes (TYPE IV) to preserve the power of 80s records as much as possible. So from late 70s (Disco era), through 80s, and especially 90s and 2000s music on vinyl, I find metal tapes keep as much richness as possible. The problem is I find hard (or almost impossible) to find Metal tapes, or even Chromium tapes, these days, and finding a new high-end tape deck seems more of a challenge. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Mpffff.... I keep a Revox A77 in excellent & well-maintained condition. A revox B710 cassette deck - similar. A Tascam 3-head cassette deck - similar. Occasionally, I record vinyl. Both Revoxs sound better than the Tascam. *WITH VINYL*, the differences between the cassette and the RtR are a close-run thing. The Dolby system accounts for most of that closeness. Without it, the RtR is hands-down superior in every way except expense and handling and indexing and storage... Neither is very satisfactory as compared to a recording to digital media, done properly - even with an inexpensive Philips recording CD player. All consumer-recording media have their issues, real or perceived, with longevity. I expect that modern digital media will very likely last as long as or longer than any magnetic medium with less environmental sensitivity. You pays you money, you takes you chances. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA Cassettes are easier to store and are *about* as good as the original vinyl all other things being equal. |
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#21
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 17, 3:21�pm, wrote:
Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. - I prefer Metal Position tapes (TYPE IV) to preserve the power of 80s records as much as possible. So from late 70s (Disco era), through 80s, and especially 90s and 2000s music on vinyl, I find metal tapes keep as much richness as possible. The problem is I find hard (or almost impossible) to find Metal tapes, or even Chromium tapes, these days, and finding a new high-end tape deck seems more of a challenge. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Thanks for sharing any experience. If you want to record to an analogue medium it pretty much has to be some sort of tape. the only non tape analog recording medium I can think of would be a cutting lathe and blank laquers. I don't think that is very practical although it may be a lot of fun. If you are having trouble finding the blank casstte tapes you want you may have to go to reel to reel. This is one source for blank tapes that ought to meet your needs. http://www.oaktreeent.com/Reel-To-Reel_Tape.htm There are plenty of excellent reel to reel recorders out there to choose from. |
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#22
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Steven Sullivan wrote:
...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback. What playback equipment have you used to determine this? Please be specific: turntables, pickup arms, phono cartridges, phono preamplifiers. Because you claim this playback characteristic is "inherent," you must have experimented with more than one playback system. Did you conduct any measurements which document your claim? If so, please share. Have you mastered any LPs yourself, or participated in the LP mastering process, that further establishes the veracity of your claim? If so, are these recordings that we can purchase and listen to ourselves? I'd also be interested in what physical properties of LP playback result in this "inherent" result. Surely, you must have a theory or two. Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? |
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#24
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
C. Leeds wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: ...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback. What playback equipment have you used to determine this? Please be specific: turntables, pickup arms, phono cartridges, phono preamplifiers. Because you claim this playback characteristic is "inherent," you must have experimented with more than one playback system. Did you conduct any measurements which document your claim? If so, please share. Have you mastered any LPs yourself, or participated in the LP mastering process, that further establishes the veracity of your claim? If so, are these recordings that we can purchase and listen to ourselves? I'd also be interested in what physical properties of LP playback result in this "inherent" result. Surely, you must have a theory or two. Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? There is another option between 'just my opinion' and 'I have personally measured and verified the existence of these phenomena" - knowledge passed on from trusted authorities. I daresay most of what you have ever learned formally in your life, falls into that latter category. So, just to be clear before we begin, woudl I be correct to believe that, as far as you'e concerned, and despite the many times you have shared newsgroup space with with folks like, say, Stewart Pinkerton or JJ, that you think LP euphonic distortion is an urban legend without objective basis or documentation? And there is some combination of rig + vinyl that exhibits no such distortions? -- -S A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles" (1748) |
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#25
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To question any of the above is to be in a state of denial, however much you might *like* the distinctive *colourations* of vinyl. Anyone who claims that his replay system has successfully avoided these issues, is left with one obvious question - why not just use CD, which suffers none of these problems and must therefore sound *identical* to such a nonpareil vinyl system? |
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#26
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
In article ,
Sonnova wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:16:38 -0700, wrote (in article ): On Oct 17, 3:21�pm, wrote: Hello, I am a vinyl collector, and I have noticed the superior quality of analogue records in terms of sound richness and bass power, wrt digital. I record my records to audio cassettes as follow: - I prefer Chromium Oxide tapes (CrO2) for mono records: deep 50s or 60s grooves, especally for 45s, as well as early stereo LP and 45s from late 60s, into mid-70s. - I prefer Metal Position tapes (TYPE IV) to preserve the power of 80s records as much as possible. So from late 70s (Disco era), through 80s, and especially 90s and 2000s music on vinyl, I find metal tapes keep as much richness as possible. The problem is I find hard (or almost impossible) to find Metal tapes, or even Chromium tapes, these days, and finding a new high-end tape deck seems more of a challenge. If you feel vinyl is superior than digital, and you'd like to record your records onto another analogue media, what do you do. Can we use something else than audiotapes, and if so how is the quality wrt audiotapes. Thanks for sharing any experience. If you want to record to an analogue medium it pretty much has to be some sort of tape. the only non tape analog recording medium I can think of would be a cutting lathe and blank laquers. I don't think that is very practical although it may be a lot of fun. If you are having trouble finding the blank casstte tapes you want you may have to go to reel to reel. This is one source for blank tapes that ought to meet your needs. http://www.oaktreeent.com/Reel-To-Reel_Tape.htm There are plenty of excellent reel to reel recorders out there to choose from. You know, it would be fun to find a discarded professional disc-cutter and all of the ancillaries and set it up. There's more work -- and cost -- there than you may appreciate. A "professional" cutting system is more-or-less a roomful of electronics with a cutting lathe at one end. Not the least requirement is the continuous flow of helium through the cutter head, to keep it from melting (helium can carry away a *lot* more heat than "air"). Check a good reference, such as John Eargle's book on recording (probably long out of print). Isaac |
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#27
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Steven Sullivan wrote:
...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. I asked: Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback. What playback equipment have you used to determine this? Please be specific... I'd also be interested in what physical properties of LP playback result in this "inherent" result.... Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? Mr. Sullivan answers: There is another option between 'just my opinion' and 'I have personally measured and verified the existence of these phenomena" - knowledge passed on from trusted authorities. Please feel free to cite other sources if you lack first-hand experience to justify your claims. Please be specific. |
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#28
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
In article ,
"C. Leeds" wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: ...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback. What playback equipment have you used to determine this? Please be specific: turntables, pickup arms, phono cartridges, phono preamplifiers. Because you claim this playback characteristic is "inherent," you must have experimented with more than one playback system. Did you conduct any measurements which document your claim? If so, please share. Have you mastered any LPs yourself, or participated in the LP mastering process, that further establishes the veracity of your claim? If so, are these recordings that we can purchase and listen to ourselves? I'd also be interested in what physical properties of LP playback result in this "inherent" result. Surely, you must have a theory or two. Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? Nothing to do with the type of equipment used; it's theoretically provable. Check a good reference on the problems with capturing audio to grooves. Isaac |
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#29
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"C. Leeds" wrote in message
... Steven Sullivan wrote: snip Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? Mr. Sullivan answers: There is another option between 'just my opinion' and 'I have personally measured and verified the existence of these phenomena" - knowledge passed on from trusted authorities. Please feel free to cite other sources if you lack first-hand experience to justify your claims. Please be specific. I think you'll find this group nowadays largely populated with folks quoting "settled science", "trusted authorities", "well-proven" etc.in support of the conventional wisdom. But when you ask for specifics, suddenly conventional wisdom seems more like pass-along verities than it does science. |
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#30
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
C. Leeds wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: ...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. I asked: Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback. What playback equipment have you used to determine this? Please be specific... I'd also be interested in what physical properties of LP playback result in this "inherent" result.... Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? Mr. Sullivan answers: There is another option between 'just my opinion' and 'I have personally measured and verified the existence of these phenomena" - knowledge passed on from trusted authorities. Please feel free to cite other sources if you lack first-hand experience to justify your claims. Please be specific. FWIW, I own a Systemdek IIX table with a Shure V15TuypeIVMR cart, have done for decades now. It's basically mothballed, since the digital revolution, only hauled out to transfer the occasional LP to digital. As to other sources, the aforementioned James Johnston and Steware Pinkerton, for two. Please feel free to acknowledge the fact that you've encountered them and their arguments before, on, for example, this thread discussing LP sound: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...bf206f370e89b5 I wouldn't expect you to have read these next posts of JJs, though. PLease do, since you asked. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=269 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post12206518 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12207540 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post13631037 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post12246164 Another source are ancient articles in JAES, back in the bad old days when LP was the primary format. Like this one: Performance Characteristics of the Commercial Stereo Disc Volume 17 Number 4 pp. 416-422; August 1969 The study examines the state of the art in processing master lacquers through the intermediate stages of metal plating on through to vinyl pressing. Detailed noise and distortion measurements at each interface are described, and the effects of normal variations in processes as well as changes in materials are noted. More recently, this series of articles, including measurements: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/featu...rts-6---8.html -- -S I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life -- Leo Tolstoy |
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#31
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"C. Leeds" wrote in message
Steven Sullivan wrote: ...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback. It is well-described in the techical literature. See the writings of Bauer, etc. It is easy to measure. It is often clearly audible. What playback equipment have you used to determine this? Please be specific: turntables, pickup arms, phono cartridges, phono preamplifiers. Equipment lists are unnecessary because there is no equipment that can avoid it, given that it is inherent in the medium. Because you claim this playback characteristic is "inherent," you must have experimented with more than one playback system. Starting with my first system that was based on an Audio Empire 108, to my last system that based on a Shure V15 IV. I have a number of friends who have also done independent measurements on their own equipment. One of them even found a new kind of fairly severe nonlinear distortion due to the use of offset tone arms. He had a paper published in the JAES, meaning that his findings were recognized as being factual by the AES review board. His name? Kilmanis. His co-author was Rabinow, the Rab in Rabco. Did you conduct any measurements which document your claim? Yes, but doing so was a bit silly on my part, given that I was already aware of its existence via my own ears. You mean, you don't hear it? All you need is a good test LP like the HFN test LP, a PC with a modern audio interface, some DAW software like CoolEdit/Audition (I think Audacity will suffice) and the LP playback equipment of your choice to measure the inherent technical problems of the LP portrayed before you, if somehow your ears don't already inform you well enough. If so, please share. Have you mastered any LPs yourself, or participated in the LP mastering process, that further establishes the veracity of your claim? The mastering engineers that I have had personal contact with over the years were well-aware of many of these problems. The technical literature for mastering equipment often mentions how these problems are being addressed, but not solved as they are inherently unsolvable. The general solution for the inherent distortion, noise and producability problems of the LP has been on the market for about 25 years. It is called the Redbook CD format and it is generally accepted to be highly effective. There are any number of papers, measurements, and listening tests that you can examine that support these claims. I'd also be interested in what physical properties of LP playback result in this "inherent" result. Surely, you must have a theory or two. No new theories are necessary, given all the technical literature about the inherent technical problems with the LP that has been published over the years. Check the JAES archives, for example. Search under author name = Bauer. |
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#32
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"C. Leeds" wrote in message
Mr. Sullivan answers: There is another option between 'just my opinion' and 'I have personally measured and verified the existence of these phenomena" - knowledge passed on from trusted authorities. Please feel free to cite other sources if you lack first-hand experience to justify your claims. Please be specific. AES E-Library: The High-Fidelity Phonograph Transducer by Bauer, Benjamin B. The High-Fidelity Phonograph Transducer JAES Volume 25 Issue 10/11 pp. 729-748; November 1977 AES E-Library: -Tonearm Geometry and Frequency-Modulation Distortion- and Discussion by Kilmanas, Raymond; Rabinow, J. -Tonearm Geometry and Frequency-Modulation Distortion- and Discussion JAES Volume 30 Issue 9 pp. 574-579; September 1982 |
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#33
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Sonnova wrote...
But (sigh) cutting one's own stereo LP would be fun. http://www.vestax.com/v/products/recorders/vrx2000.html Do let us know how you get on. I wonder how things would have developed if Berliners flat disc had not caught on. 1 hour recordings on 3 foot long cylinders perhaps.Admittedly storage would be a problem, but look at the advantages: Easy stylus setup, no end of side distortion.Audiophile recordings issued on 2 ft diameter cylinders. Another lost opportunity by the audio industry. http://www.tinfoil.com/ -- Ken http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/buddyduck/ |
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#34
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
On Oct 21, 12:00�pm, Steven Sullivan wrote:
C. Leeds wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: � ...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. I asked: Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback. What playback equipment have you used to determine this? Please be specific... I'd also be interested in what physical properties of LP playback result in this "inherent" result.... Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? Mr. Sullivan answers: There is another option between 'just my opinion' and 'I have personally measured and verified the existence of these phenomena" - knowledge passed on from trusted authorities. Please feel free to cite other sources if you lack first-hand experience to justify your claims. Please be specific. FWIW, I own a Systemdek IIX table with a Shure V15TuypeIVMR cart, have done for decades now. It's basically mothballed, since the digital revolution, only hauled out to transfer the occasional LP to digital. As to other sources, the aforementioned James Johnston and Steware Pinkerton, for two. Please feel free to acknowledge the fact that you've encountered them and their arguments � before, on, for example, this thread discussing LP sound: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e_frm/thread/6... There is nothing I could find in that thread stated by either Pinkerton or JJ that supports the assertion of the existance of inherent euphonic colorations in vinyl. I wouldn't expect you to have read these next posts of JJs, though. PLease do, since you asked. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=269 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post12206518 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12207540 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post13631037 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post12246164 JJ makes the following specific claims in the posts you cited "But LP can sound like it has more dynamic range, because of the distortion/loudness growth issues. Likewise, it can have a wider, more complex soundstage for the same reasons. Many LP playback systems do enhancement of the L-R part of the stereo signal due to both stylus beam pivot issues as well as cartridge design issues." There is nothing in there that says or even implies that these things are inherent. "LP *can* sound like it has more dynamic range...." That simply does not claim or even imply that it is an inherent quality of LP playback. It simply is an assertion that it *can* happen. JJ however goes on to make some assertions that are at best vague if not misleading or simply factually incorrect. "LP can not have substantial low bass content in stereo. It's physics. So it gets mono'ed and limited. LP's can not provide nearly the dynamic range of a CD. So LP's to some extent have to be compressed, but not by a lot. " "Substantial" is too vague a word in this context to have any real meaning. The fact is most LPs have not had their bass summed to mono. this is a bit of an urban legend. It is also a fact that many an audiophile LP has been cut in full stereo with bass content that many inculding myself would argue is quite substantial. JJ makes a very interesting assertion here about a euphonic coloration of vinyl "LP's distort more (percentagewise, whateverwise) at higher levels. A polynomial model, in fact, seems to do a good representation of this until outright mistracking happens. The model is different for M and S (not L and R). This also turns out to be important, but not for the reason we're discussing here. This means that at low levels, the distortion is not very noticible. At high levels, with the usual kind of lowpassy audio signal one sees most often,it means that the spectrum will spread approximately two octaves higher, with some substantial energy there. This means that even though the energy will grow a bit, the loudness grows quite a bit. This creates the ILLUSION of more dynamic range. You can do the same thing by taking a sine wave at, say, 100 Hz, and starting to clip it. As you start to clip it, which has to absolutely result in less total energy, you will notice quickly that it gets LOUDER, not quieter, at first. This is another example (more extreme) of the same effect." While there seems to be some implication of universality here it isn't clear or explicit. JJ makes clear assertions about the existance and effects of inherent euphonic colorations of vinyl. "An LP does, demonstrably, have distortions that sound good. This is not news, this is something long since documented. Now, there's nothing wrong with liking those distortions, which in fact increase the sense of dynamic range and all-over spatial effect, among other things, but wouldn't it be better to add them to CD if you want to? And understand what you're doing?" Of course the big problem with all of this is it is pure testimonial. As it stands in your post it is an argument by authority a classic logical fallacy. http://www.theskepticsguide.org/logicalfallacies.asp "Argument from authority Stating that a claim is true because a person or group of perceived authority says it is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. It is reasonable to give more credence to the claims of those with the proper background, education, and credentials, or to be suspicious of the claims of someone making authoritative statements in an area for which they cannot demonstrate expertise. But the truth of a claim should ultimately rest on logic and evidence, not the authority of the person promoting it. " That is not to say JJ is incorrect in any of his assertions about the inherent euphonic colorations of vinyl. It simply isn't the sort of citation that really supports your assertions. I think it would be great to find the actual documentation JJ refered to. Without that sort of data from which to make assertions, we run the risk of unknowingly promoting urban legend. Another source are ancient articles in JAES, back in the bad old days when LP was the primary format. Like this one: Performance Characteristics of the Commercial Stereo Disc Volume 17 Number 4 pp. 416-422; August 1969 The study examines the state of the art in processing master lacquers through the intermediate stages of metal plating on through to vinyl pressing. Detailed noise and distortion measurements at each interface are described, and the effects of normal variations in processes as well as changes in materials are noted. 1969? That would strike as rather dated. I think it is simply unfair to assume there has been no advancement in the state of the art of laquer cutting and vinyl playback. By most accounts there has been substantial incrimental improvements in both technologies over the past forty years. I hope you wouldn't assert that SOTA playback from 1969 is even in the same ballpark as the Rockport Sirius III or the offerings from Continuum. I suggest you read some of the cutting edge technology that goes into their rigs. http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/ More recently, this series of articles, including measurements: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/featu...s/vinyl-vs.-cd... An interesting article but it fails to go the whole nine yards and do controlled listening tests that isolate the alleged distortion and gauge it's effect on listeners. As I have said in another thread I started, I don't doubt the existance of inherent colorations of vinyl nor do I doubt the existance of euphonic colorations. as to inherent colorations in vinyl being in some cases euphonic, I think it is a reasonable theory but I have yet to see any meaningful listening tests that support it. |
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#35
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Another ref about vinyl-realted distortion, to add, courtesy of Arny:
Kilmanas, Raymond; Rabinow, J. Tonearm Geometry and Frequency-Modulation Distortion- and Discussion JAES Volume 30 Issue 9 pp. 574-579; September 1982 btw, Arny, a reply to your email bounced. and here's a JAES golden oldie Clark, H. A. M.; Dutton, G. F.; Vanderlyn, P. B. The 'Stereosonic' Recording and Reproducing System: A Two-Channel Systems for Domestic Tape Records JAES Volume 6 Issue 2 pp. 102-117; April 1958 and some miscellanea Lip****z, Stanley P. Impulse Response of the Pickup Arm-Cartridge System JAES Volume 26 Issue 1/2 pp. 20-35; February 1978 Anderson, Roger Some Aspects of Wear and Calibration of Test Records JAES Volume 9 Issue 2 pp. 111-114; April 1961 Shiga, Takeo Deformation Distortion in Disc Records JAES Volume 14 Issue 3 pp. 208-217; July 1966 (this article spawned a subset of others: Cooper, Duane H. Comments on and Corrections to: "Deformation Distortion in Disc Records" JAES Volume 16 Issue 4 p. 479; October 1968 White, James V. An Experimental Study of Groove Deformation in Phonograph Records JAES Volume 18 Issue 5 pp. 497-506; October 1970 Barlow, Donald A.; Garside, Gerald R. Groove Deformation and Distortion in Recordings JAES Volume 26 Issue 7/8 pp. 498-510; August 1978 Barlow, D. A. More About "Groove Deformation and Distortion in Records" JAES Volume 27 Issue 3 p. 164; March 1979 Daniel W.; Gust, Arthur J.; Bauer, Benjamin B. The Dynamic Range of Disc and Tape Records JAES Volume 18 Issue 5 pp. 530-535; October 1970 Jakobs, Bernhard W. Analysis of Crosstalk on Stereo Test Records JAES Volume 19 Issue 4 pp. 280-287; April 1971 Barlow, D. A. More About "Groove Deformation and Distortion in Records" JAES Volume 27 Issue 3 p. 164; March 1979 finally, this 'look to the future' circa 1977: Stockham, Jr., Thomas G. Records of the Future JAES Volume 25 Issue 10/11 pp. 892-895; November 1977 The nature of our future phonograph records will probably be tied strongly to future technical innovations. Right now the most dramatic technical change for the long term would seem to be digital audio. The concurrent evolutions in computer technologies and consumer video recording might point to the advent of digital audio records. This paper outlines the possibilities in general terms. -- -S I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life -- Leo Tolstoy |
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#36
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
Steven Sullivan wrote:
...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. I asked: Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback.... Mr. Sullivan answers: (snipped)... http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...bf206f370e89b5 I wouldn't expect you to have read these next posts of JJs, though. PLease do, since you asked. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=269 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post12206518 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12207540 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post13631037 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post12246164 (snip) http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/featu...rts-6---8.html Perhaps I missed it, but I see nothing in these posts to support your claim of inherent, audible "distortion inherent in vinyl playback." If the proof is there, please post it here. |
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#37
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
oops, forgot to include these BB Bauer refs --
Bauer, Benjamin B.; Schwartz, Arnold; Gust, Arthur J. Transient Response and Intermodulation Studies in Phonograph Reproduction JAES Volume 11 Issue 2 pp. 110-114; April 1963 Bauer, Benjamin B. Groove Echo in Lacquer Masters JAES Volume 19 Issue 10 pp. 847-850; November 1971 Gravereaux, Daniel W.; Gust, Arthur J.; Bauer, Benjamin B. Phase-Shift Characteristics of Record Cutters and Pickups JAES Volume 20 Issue 1 pp. 15-18; February 1972 Bauer, Benjamin B. The High-Fidelity Phonograph Transducer JAES Volume 25 Issue 10/11 pp. 729-748; November 1977 -- -S I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life -- Leo Tolstoy |
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#38
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"ScottW" wrote in message
Woofer pumping is a real issue for vinyl. There are three sources of this problem - warped records , tone arm resonance, and acoustic feedback. As others have pointed out, digital transcriptions provide an effective means for avoiding acoustic feedback. Digital processing can also help mitigate the problems related to tone arm resonance and warping of the record. Now my rig is not 15K, but I'd like to see someone prove to me that a solution for woofer pumping without compromising bass reproduction in vinyl playback has been developed. (1) Do a digital transcription with your speakers turned off. (2) Use FFT analysis to determine the nature of any spurious low-frequency responses. (3) Use digital filtering to manage to low frequency spurious responses. |
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#39
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
wrote in message
On Oct 21, 12:00?pm, Steven Sullivan wrote: C. Leeds wrote: Steven Sullivan wrote: ? ...transcribing that to LP will actually ADD some spurious, if pleasing to some, 'ambience' of its own, via euphonic distortion inherent in vinyl playback. I asked: Please tell us how you know about this distortion that is "inherent" in LP playback. What playback equipment have you used to determine this? Please be specific... I'd also be interested in what physical properties of LP playback result in this "inherent" result.... Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? Mr. Sullivan answers: There is another option between 'just my opinion' and 'I have personally measured and verified the existence of these phenomena" - knowledge passed on from trusted authorities. Please feel free to cite other sources if you lack first-hand experience to justify your claims. Please be specific. FWIW, I own a Systemdek IIX table with a Shure V15TuypeIVMR cart, have done for decades now. It's basically mothballed, since the digital revolution, only hauled out to transfer the occasional LP to digital. As to other sources, the aforementioned James Johnston and Steware Pinkerton, for two. Please feel free to acknowledge the fact that you've encountered them and their arguments ? before, on, for example, this thread discussing LP sound: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e_frm/thread/6... There is nothing I could find in that thread stated by either Pinkerton or JJ that supports the assertion of the existance of inherent euphonic colorations in vinyl. I wouldn't expect you to have read these next posts of JJs, though. PLease do, since you asked. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=269 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post12206518 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12207540 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post13631037 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post12246164 JJ makes the following specific claims in the posts you cited "But LP can sound like it has more dynamic range, because of the distortion/loudness growth issues. Likewise, it can have a wider, more complex soundstage for the same reasons. Many LP playback systems do enhancement of the L-R part of the stereo signal due to both stylus beam pivot issues as well as cartridge design issues." There is nothing in there that says or even implies that these things are inherent. "LP *can* sound like it has more dynamic range...." That simply does not claim or even imply that it is an inherent quality of LP playback. It simply is an assertion that it *can* happen. JJ however goes on to make some assertions that are at best vague if not misleading or simply factually incorrect. "LP can not have substantial low bass content in stereo. It's physics. So it gets mono'ed and limited. LP's can not provide nearly the dynamic range of a CD. So LP's to some extent have to be compressed, but not by a lot. " "Substantial" is too vague a word in this context to have any real meaning. The fact is most LPs have not had their bass summed to mono. this is a bit of an urban legend. It is also a fact that many an audiophile LP has been cut in full stereo with bass content that many inculding myself would argue is quite substantial. JJ makes a very interesting assertion here about a euphonic coloration of vinyl "LP's distort more (percentagewise, whateverwise) at higher levels. A polynomial model, in fact, seems to do a good representation of this until outright mistracking happens. The model is different for M and S (not L and R). This also turns out to be important, but not for the reason we're discussing here. This means that at low levels, the distortion is not very noticible. At high levels, with the usual kind of lowpassy audio signal one sees most often,it means that the spectrum will spread approximately two octaves higher, with some substantial energy there. This means that even though the energy will grow a bit, the loudness grows quite a bit. This creates the ILLUSION of more dynamic range. You can do the same thing by taking a sine wave at, say, 100 Hz, and starting to clip it. As you start to clip it, which has to absolutely result in less total energy, you will notice quickly that it gets LOUDER, not quieter, at first. This is another example (more extreme) of the same effect." While there seems to be some implication of universality here it isn't clear or explicit. JJ makes clear assertions about the existance and effects of inherent euphonic colorations of vinyl. "An LP does, demonstrably, have distortions that sound good. This is not news, this is something long since documented. Now, there's nothing wrong with liking those distortions, which in fact increase the sense of dynamic range and all-over spatial effect, among other things, but wouldn't it be better to add them to CD if you want to? And understand what you're doing?" Of course the big problem with all of this is it is pure testimonial. No, much of it is general knowlege among people who are familiar with the technical literature of the vinyl LP, some of which I've cited here on a number of occasions, including the last two days. More recently, this series of articles, including measurements: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/featu...s/vinyl-vs.-cd... These articles substantiate many of the things that JJ said. An interesting article but it fails to go the whole nine yards and do controlled listening tests that isolate the alleged distortion and gauge it's effect on listeners. The articles explain why subjective tests must fail to provide definitive results. Basically, LPs are so sonically flawed in characteristic ways that listeners will often be able to identify which format they are listening to, and the so-called blind listening test will not be effectively blind, and will degenerate into a public opinion survey. |
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#40
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Best way/quality to record vinyl...
"ScottW" wrote in message
... On Oct 21, 6:01 am, "Harry Lavo" wrote: "C. Leeds" wrote in message ... Steven Sullivan wrote: snip Or, as I suspect, is this claim simply opinion stated as fact? Mr. Sullivan answers: There is another option between 'just my opinion' and 'I have personally measured and verified the existence of these phenomena" - knowledge passed on from trusted authorities. Please feel free to cite other sources if you lack first-hand experience to justify your claims. Please be specific. I think you'll find this group nowadays largely populated with folks quoting "settled science", "trusted authorities", "well-proven" etc.in support of the conventional wisdom. But when you ask for specifics, suddenly conventional wisdom seems more like pass-along verities than it does science. You mean specifics like this statement, "That's not so much the vinyl talking as it is your turntable/tonearm/cartridge." in response to experience with problems like subsonic woofer pumping. I've seen recent comments in forums like it requires $15K minimum to obtain a decent vinyl playback system. I find these comments more than guilty in the lack of specifics and substance department. So let me add my own experience to the discussion. Woofer pumping is a real issue for vinyl. I was aware of it when using my downfiring sub by occasionally putting my ear near the port. Now with my open baffle Orions (no sub) I can easily see the issue in action and it is clearly record dependent. Now my rig is not 15K, but I'd like to see someone prove to me that a solution for woofer pumping without comprimising bass reproduction in vinyl playback has been developed. I have insured my arm and cart are well matched and tested it myself. IME, it isn't the rig, its the records. If not, explain why some records are so much worse than others? I don't have enough experience with woofer pumping to know who is right, but I suspect it probably is a record warp or cutting issue. However, to me the really relevant issues beyond what causes it, is:does it matter: * Does it affect what you hear? * Is it inaudible (consciously) but somehow still intereferes with enjoyment of the music? If so, then it is a strike against vinyl. If not, then it offers no favor to CD. And my guess is there has been NO scientific work done to provide answers to those questions. Harry |
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