[rooy]

Hi all

I've searched the web a bit and I understood that if I wire the
speakers in series the resulting impedance is simply the sum of all
the impedances of each speaker.

What isn't clear to me however is the actual result that you hear with
this configuration.

Suppose I have a 100W stereo amplifier, with 4 Ohm on each channel,
and that I want to use 4 identical 50W/4Ohm loudspeakers.

If I wire on each channel 2 speakers in series, I'll get 8 Ohm
impedance on both channels, this should be ok to work with for the 4
Ohm amplifier (please correct me if I'm wrong and if I'm about to blow
up my amp!!!).

But what results I am going to get? The resulting sound will be louder
or quieter? Are there benefits/drawbacks?
Or is it better to just wire one speaker to each channel and live
happy with that?

thanks in advance!

[Richard Crowley]

"rooy" wrote ...
I've searched the web a bit and I understood that if I wire the
speakers in series the resulting impedance is simply the sum of all
the impedances of each speaker.

Yes, that is a simplified summary of the rule. There is more to it
than that (such as the resulting impedance from wiring speakers
in parallel, and in all manner of series/parallel arrangements.)

What isn't clear to me however is the actual result that you hear with
this configuration.

The simple explanation is that the resulting power will be split
among the speakers according to their impednce. Two speakers
with identical impedance will each receive 50% of the power.

Suppose I have a 100W stereo amplifier, with 4 Ohm on each channel,
and that I want to use 4 identical 50W/4Ohm loudspeakers.

If I wire on each channel 2 speakers in series, I'll get 8 Ohm
impedance on both channels,

Yes, you will have an 8-ohm load on *each* channel.

this should be ok to work with for the 4 Ohm amplifier (please
correct me if I'm wrong and if I'm about to blow up my amp!!!).

It should be of no particular danger to your amp. Note that you
will generally get only half the power into an 8-ohm load (however
many speakers that is) than you would with a 4-ohm load (into
however many speakers).


But what results I am going to get? The resulting sound will be louder
or quieter?

The total power will be *shared* between the speakers,
whether they are wired in series or parallel) according to
their relative impedances. Theoretically, the total sound will
be the same, but the sound from *each* speaker will be a
fraction of the total.

Are there benefits/drawbacks?
Or is it better to just wire one speaker to each channel and live
happy with that?

There are way too many variables and situations to make any
global pronouncements about this. If you want to ask about a
specific situation, it would be easier to respond.

[jakdedert]

Richard Crowley wrote:
"rooy" wrote ...
I've searched the web a bit and I understood that if I wire the
speakers in series the resulting impedance is simply the sum of all
the impedances of each speaker.

Yes, that is a simplified summary of the rule. There is more to it
than that (such as the resulting impedance from wiring speakers
in parallel, and in all manner of series/parallel arrangements.)

What isn't clear to me however is the actual result that you hear with
this configuration.

The simple explanation is that the resulting power will be split
among the speakers according to their impednce. Two speakers
with identical impedance will each receive 50% of the power.

Suppose I have a 100W stereo amplifier, with 4 Ohm on each channel,
and that I want to use 4 identical 50W/4Ohm loudspeakers.

If I wire on each channel 2 speakers in series, I'll get 8 Ohm
impedance on both channels,

Yes, you will have an 8-ohm load on *each* channel.

this should be ok to work with for the 4 Ohm amplifier (please
correct me if I'm wrong and if I'm about to blow up my amp!!!).

It should be of no particular danger to your amp. Note that you
will generally get only half the power into an 8-ohm load (however
many speakers that is) than you would with a 4-ohm load (into
however many speakers).

But what results I am going to get? The resulting sound will be louder
or quieter?

The total power will be *shared* between the speakers,
whether they are wired in series or parallel) according to
their relative impedances. Theoretically, the total sound will
be the same, but the sound from *each* speaker will be a
fraction of the total.

Are there benefits/drawbacks?
Or is it better to just wire one speaker to each channel and live
happy with that?

There are way too many variables and situations to make any
global pronouncements about this. If you want to ask about a
specific situation, it would be easier to respond.


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the OP will probably be
satisfied with the results. Volume will be roughly equal, since you're
adding speakers...but losing amp power with the 8-ohm load vs 4-ohms.

What you will lose is the 'point source' characteristics of your boxes.
However closely they now come to this ideal, they will then be half as
good. FWIW, this idea that a point source is theoretically best for
reproducing sound, is based on the slight differences in time that the
sound from the various drivers arrive at your ears with a typical
speaker system. This is due to the slight difference in distance of
each driver from the listening position. You will be complicating that
equation somewhat by adding another box, with another set of drivers all
at a slight offset.

Whether it will sound 'better' is a matter of conjecture. If you don't
already have the additional set of speakers, I'd look elsewhere for
improvement. Spend the money on a more powerful amp
or--bigger/better/more accurate/more efficient--speakers.

jak

[JANA]

Speakers connected in series will satisfy to have a higher impedance.
The power will be shared between the speakers. The damping factor will
be much lower due to the added series resistance between the drivers.

Because the speaker drivers would be very difficult to be matched for
phase and efficiency, there will be some phase distortions introduced.

The proper solution is to have a proper pair of speakers and an
amplifier that can handle the load.

--

JANA
_____


"rooy" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I've searched the web a bit and I understood that if I wire the
speakers in series the resulting impedance is simply the sum of all
the impedances of each speaker.

What isn't clear to me however is the actual result that you hear with
this configuration.

Suppose I have a 100W stereo amplifier, with 4 Ohm on each channel,
and that I want to use 4 identical 50W/4Ohm loudspeakers.

If I wire on each channel 2 speakers in series, I'll get 8 Ohm
impedance on both channels, this should be ok to work with for the 4
Ohm amplifier (please correct me if I'm wrong and if I'm about to blow
up my amp!!!).

But what results I am going to get? The resulting sound will be louder
or quieter? Are there benefits/drawbacks?
Or is it better to just wire one speaker to each channel and live
happy with that?

thanks in advance!

[[email protected]]

On Jun 24, 7:38 am, "JANA" wrote:
Speakers connected in series will satisfy to have a higher impedance.
The power will be shared between the speakers. The damping factor will
be much lower due to the added series resistance between the drivers.

First, the "damping factor" is a pretty meaningless and
useless measure, so let's drop it. For an explanation of this,
see www.cartchunk.org/audiotopics/DampingFactor.pdf

Secondly, since the original poster states:

"Suppose I have a 100W stereo amplifier, with 4 Ohm
on each channel, and that I want to use 4 identical
50W/4Ohm loudspeakers. "

if you are wiring two speakers that are the same in series, the
measure of how well the speakers are damped, the "Q" factors,
will remain same as one of them alone. This is clearly illustrated
in www.cartchunk.org/audiotopics/SeriesSpeaker.pdf

Because the speaker drivers would be very difficult to be matched for
phase and efficiency, there will be some phase distortions introduced.

Since the original poster states:

"Suppose I have a 100W stereo amplifier, with 4 Ohm
on each channel, and that I want to use 4 identical
50W/4Ohm loudspeakers. "

if the speakers are the same models, they will be matched
as well as any two speakers of the same model are. What
differences in phase and efficiency might exist between the
two will be completely swamped by the effects of the room
and by the fact that two speakers cannot physically occupy
the same point in 3-d space.

The proper solution is to have a proper pair of speakers and an
amplifier that can handle the load.

No, the proper solution is to understand the proper way of
doing it and what happens. A "proper pair of speakers and
an amp[lifier that can handle the load" is merely ONE of a
number proper solutions. The scheme proposed by the
original poster is yat another equally vaid and proper
solution.

[Roger Thorpe[_2_]]

I'm sure that someone will correct me if I am in error but:
Won't the *total* power be halved? Twice the impedance so half the current.
If you want to have some fun that is not a "proper solution" then put
the speakers behind you and wire them in series between the 'live'
connections of the left and right speaker outputs.
Back in the seventies that sort of thing made people say "Wow, far out
man". at least it did wher I lived.

Roger Thorpe
I seem to remember Yessongs was best for that.

[Earl Kiosterud]

"rooy" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I've searched the web a bit and I understood that if I wire the
speakers in series the resulting impedance is simply the sum of all
the impedances of each speaker.

What isn't clear to me however is the actual result that you hear with
this configuration.

Suppose I have a 100W stereo amplifier, with 4 Ohm on each channel,
and that I want to use 4 identical 50W/4Ohm loudspeakers.

If I wire on each channel 2 speakers in series, I'll get 8 Ohm
impedance on both channels, this should be ok to work with for the 4
Ohm amplifier (please correct me if I'm wrong and if I'm about to blow
up my amp!!!).

But what results I am going to get? The resulting sound will be louder
or quieter? Are there benefits/drawbacks?
Or is it better to just wire one speaker to each channel and live
happy with that?

thanks in advance!

The total power delivered to the 8-Ohm combination of series speakers will be 1/2 that of
one 4-Ohm speaker, as has been pointed out. That's a 3 dB reduction in total delivered
power. Because of the series arrangement, each speaker will receive 1/2 of that power.
That's another 3 dB reduction, per speaker. If you're not sure what that means in terms of
loudness, and have ever watched a meter with dB markings as you listened, it's the same
thing (a dB is a dB).

If the speakers are in separate rooms, expect each to be 6 dB quieter than the starting
scenario (one speaker per amp channel). The amplifier will be quite happy with this lighter
load, and if you can turn it up as loud as you might ever want without clipping, then you're
good to go.

If the speakers are in the same room, but not near each other, expect to pick up roughly 3
dB, compared to separate rooms, so now you're back to only a 3 dB reduction from the
starting scenario (one speaker per amplifier channel).

If each of the two series-connected speakers is very near the other, and pointed in the same
direction, expect to pick up 6 dB, compared to the separate rooms scenario, but only on axis
with the speakers, and in the plane defined by the relative positions of the speakers. For
example, if the speakers are one above the other, this 6 dB increase will extend
horizontally, but you'll actually get less output as you move vertically from the on-axis
plane. You'll also get some vertically off-axis lobing (peaks and nulls at various vertical
angles) at various frequencies. This applies for higher freqencies, and the starting point,
frequency-wise, is determined by the distance between the speaker centers. This scenario,
in the horizontal plane, will have roughly the acoustic output of the starting scenario.
You've lost 3 dB in the impedance change to 8 Ohms, but you've picked up 3 dB horizontally
from the stacking of the speakers. This can make the room sound less "live" as more sound
is directed into the listener space, and less to the floor and ceiling. For two small
speakers, the effect will be minimal.

As for "damping factor," if the speakers are identical, then the damping will be actually
increased slightly by this series arrangement - but only very slightly. You now have an
8-Ohm equivalent device "looking back" into the low source impedance of the amp, so the
damping factor will be twice that of the 4-Ohm scenario. Damping factor is a mythological
thing, however, since the amplifier, as long is its source impedance is relatively low (has
a damping factor of at least 10) has pretty much lost control of total speaker damping,
since electrical damping is swamped by the resistance of the voice coil -- relatively little
is in the source impedance of the amp. That may bring on some screaming from the purists,
but it's the plain truth. Variations between speakers (such as different cone resonance
frequency) are more likely to change the damping of each speaker at any given frequency, but
it's not of consequence as long as the speakers are similar.

I think you should hook them up and see how they do.

--
Earl

[Richard Crowley]

"Roger Thorpe" wrote...
I'm sure that someone will correct me if I am in error but:
Won't the *total* power be halved? Twice the impedance so half the
current.

Yes. I said: "Note that you will generally get only half the power into
an 8-ohm load (however many speakers that is) than you would with
a 4-ohm load (into however many speakers).

[Mr.T]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Roger Thorpe" wrote...
I'm sure that someone will correct me if I am in error but:
Won't the *total* power be halved? Twice the impedance so half the
current.

Yes. I said: "Note that you will generally get only half the power into
an 8-ohm load (however many speakers that is) than you would with
a 4-ohm load (into however many speakers).

But since you have twice as many speakers radiating into the same space, the
electro-acoustical efficiency will increase.
How much will depend on where they are situated relative to each other and
the room, and frequency of course.

Then of course the amplifier may be more voltage than current limited, so
will provide more than half the power into twice the impedance before
clipping. Very few amps have a simple direct relationship between max power
output and load impedance.

If he already has the speakers, just how hard is it to simply try it for
himself. If not, I tend to agree with some of the other posts here, in that
it would not necessarily be my first option.

MrT.

[Mr.T]

"Earl Kiosterud" wrote in message
news:m678k.3$od.0@trnddc07...
The total power delivered to the 8-Ohm combination of series speakers will
be 1/2 that of
one 4-Ohm speaker, as has been pointed out.

But NOT necessarily the *maximum* power output for any given amp, at a given
distortion level.

That's a 3 dB reduction in total delivered power.

Possibly more or less than that, depending on the amp.

MrT.

[Earl Kiosterud]

Yeah, that's true, and I wished I'd mentioned it. Most amps, with the lighter 8-Ohm, will
provide a little more power then you'd expect at that load with a constant power supply.
Maybe we can say that we'd have about a 2 dB reduction with 2 speakers in series.

--
Earl

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message u...

"Earl Kiosterud" wrote in message
news:m678k.3$od.0@trnddc07...
The total power delivered to the 8-Ohm combination of series speakers will
be 1/2 that of
one 4-Ohm speaker, as has been pointed out.

But NOT necessarily the *maximum* power output for any given amp, at a given
distortion level.

That's a 3 dB reduction in total delivered power.

Possibly more or less than that, depending on the amp.

MrT.

[Richard Crowley]

"Mr.T" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ...
"Roger Thorpe" wrote...
I'm sure that someone will correct me if I am in error but:
Won't the *total* power be halved? Twice the impedance so half the
current.

Yes. I said: "Note that you will generally get only half the power into
an 8-ohm load (however many speakers that is) than you would with
a 4-ohm load (into however many speakers).

But since you have twice as many speakers radiating into the
same space, the electro-acoustical efficiency will increase.

But it will be offset by the decrease in power being used by
each speaker. You'll be lucky to maintain the same SPL.

How much will depend on where they are situated relative to
each other and the room, and frequency of course.

Maybe, but unlikely.

Then of course the amplifier may be more voltage than current
limited, so will provide more than half the power into twice the
impedance before clipping. Very few amps have a simple direct
relationship between max power output and load impedance.

You must have experience with very different amps than
I have dealt with. IME they are typically both voltage AND
current-limited.

[Mr.T]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
Yes. I said: "Note that you will generally get only half the power
into
an 8-ohm load (however many speakers that is) than you would with
a 4-ohm load (into however many speakers).

But since you have twice as many speakers radiating into the
same space, the electro-acoustical efficiency will increase.

But it will be offset by the decrease in power being used by
each speaker. You'll be lucky to maintain the same SPL.

Maybe so, maybe not, depending on many factors we don't know.
But you'll almost certainly get more than half the radiated acoustic power.


How much will depend on where they are situated relative to
each other and the room, and frequency of course.

Maybe, but unlikely.

Not unlikely at all. Almost definitely so, but as I already said, the amount
in this case is unknown to me AND you.
Therfore not worth abject conjecture.


Then of course the amplifier may be more voltage than current
limited, so will provide more than half the power into twice the
impedance before clipping. Very few amps have a simple direct
relationship between max power output and load impedance.

You must have experience with very different amps than
I have dealt with. IME they are typically both voltage AND
current-limited.

But NOT to the exact same extent!
ALL the ones I have measured provide slightly, or significantly more than
half the power into 8ohms as into 4 ohms, because most amps use unregulated
power supplies with finite current capability.

MrT.

[jakdedert]

Roger Thorpe wrote:
I'm sure that someone will correct me if I am in error but:
Won't the *total* power be halved? Twice the impedance so half the current.
If you want to have some fun that is not a "proper solution" then put
the speakers behind you and wire them in series between the 'live'
connections of the left and right speaker outputs.
Back in the seventies that sort of thing made people say "Wow, far out
man". at least it did wher I lived.

Roger Thorpe
I seem to remember Yessongs was best for that.

Few amps put out exactly half the power into an 8-ohm load as they do to
a 4-ohm load. Most will do somewhat better than that, according to most
of the spec sheets I've read; and the direct testing I've done. The
scenario you describe would only hold true if the input signal remained
exactly the same level. Most people would simply turn it up....

jak

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , jakdedert wrote:
Richard Crowley wrote:
"rooy" wrote ...
I've searched the web a bit and I understood that if I wire the
speakers in series the resulting impedance is simply the sum of all
the impedances of each speaker.

Yes, that is a simplified summary of the rule. There is more to it
than that (such as the resulting impedance from wiring speakers
in parallel, and in all manner of series/parallel arrangements.)

What isn't clear to me however is the actual result that you hear with
this configuration.

The simple explanation is that the resulting power will be split
among the speakers according to their impednce. Two speakers
with identical impedance will each receive 50% of the power.

Suppose I have a 100W stereo amplifier, with 4 Ohm on each channel,
and that I want to use 4 identical 50W/4Ohm loudspeakers.

If I wire on each channel 2 speakers in series, I'll get 8 Ohm
impedance on both channels,

Yes, you will have an 8-ohm load on *each* channel.

this should be ok to work with for the 4 Ohm amplifier (please
correct me if I'm wrong and if I'm about to blow up my amp!!!).

It should be of no particular danger to your amp. Note that you
will generally get only half the power into an 8-ohm load (however
many speakers that is) than you would with a 4-ohm load (into
however many speakers).

But what results I am going to get? The resulting sound will be louder
or quieter?

The total power will be *shared* between the speakers,
whether they are wired in series or parallel) according to
their relative impedances. Theoretically, the total sound will
be the same, but the sound from *each* speaker will be a
fraction of the total.

Are there benefits/drawbacks?
Or is it better to just wire one speaker to each channel and live
happy with that?

There are way too many variables and situations to make any
global pronouncements about this. If you want to ask about a
specific situation, it would be easier to respond.


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the OP will probably be
satisfied with the results. Volume will be roughly equal, since you're
adding speakers...but losing amp power with the 8-ohm load vs 4-ohms.

What you will lose is the 'point source' characteristics of your boxes.
However closely they now come to this ideal, they will then be half as
good. FWIW, this idea that a point source is theoretically best for
reproducing sound, is based on the slight differences in time that the
sound from the various drivers arrive at your ears with a typical
speaker system. This is due to the slight difference in distance of
each driver from the listening position. You will be complicating that
equation somewhat by adding another box, with another set of drivers all
at a slight offset.

Whether it will sound 'better' is a matter of conjecture. If you don't
already have the additional set of speakers, I'd look elsewhere for
improvement. Spend the money on a more powerful amp
or--bigger/better/more accurate/more efficient--speakers.

jak

For all we know the speakers are in different rooms.

greg

[jakdedert]

GregS wrote:

snip

Whether it will sound 'better' is a matter of conjecture. If you don't
already have the additional set of speakers, I'd look elsewhere for
improvement. Spend the money on a more powerful amp
or--bigger/better/more accurate/more efficient--speakers.

jak

For all we know the speakers are in different rooms.

greg

Possibly, but the last line from the OP; "Or is it better to just wire
one speaker to each channel and live happy with that?", leads me to
believe they will all reside in the same space. Otherwise, he'd have to
turn them up a great deal to cover another room...unless he's planning
to put the left speaker in one room, and the right in another.

Stranger things have happened....

jak

[Mr.T]

"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .
GregS wrote:
For all we know the speakers are in different rooms.

Or more accurately, we don't know.

Possibly, but the last line from the OP; "Or is it better to just wire
one speaker to each channel and live happy with that?", leads me to
believe they will all reside in the same space.

That was my take too, but you can only make assumptions when the details are
not spelled out.

MrT.

[jakdedert]

Mr.T wrote:
"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .
GregS wrote:
For all we know the speakers are in different rooms.

Or more accurately, we don't know.

Possibly, but the last line from the OP; "Or is it better to just wire
one speaker to each channel and live happy with that?", leads me to
believe they will all reside in the same space.

That was my take too, but you can only make assumptions when the details are
not spelled out.

MrT.


....and a week has gone by. The OP hasn't chimed in to clarify. People
start these discussions among us with a single post, and never check
back in. For all we know, he didn't really have the speakers, has
ignored all the advice given, and was never really in the situation
described at all.

IOW, a troll...?

jak