wrote in message
ups.com...

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

If any of these had any effect on the sound, your amplifier has some kind of
power supply defect and should be repaired.

mc wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

If any of these had any effect on the sound, your amplifier has some kind of
power supply defect and should be repaired.

Sorry, the only defect is in your knowledge of audio. Ive forgotten
more than you know about audio, chum, and that fuseless amp tweak I
came up with works with ANYTHING; amp, preamp, cd player, etc. But I
will contend that its not the safeest thing to go about using solder or
other substitutes for a carefully rated amp fuse.

wrote:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?

That fuse is designed to fail with a very specific current for a certain
(relatively short) time, for a given line voltage. The paperclip or silver
solder are designed to...well, they're not designed. Who knows what the
current required to melt it will be? It might fail at power-on, it may not
fail until the thing becomes an arc-welder. More to the point, it may not
fail if there's a critical fault elsewhere--maybe something falls across the
output terminals and causes a dead short, lying outside the amp, possibly
on a carpet or something flammable.

Also, what are the components plugged in to? Circuit boards burn, with a
bit of convincing. An insanely hot chassis in a wooden cabinet is also a
great accident waiting to happen.

There are your primary failure modes that could cause problems.

Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?

Probably not inherently, but if the system becomes unglued, you've just
sealed up your safety valve. You're asking for quantification of how likely
that valve is to be used, which is impossible. How about, "likely enough
that it's not worth risking for wholly-imagined benefits."

A fuse on the power input only has two potential modes of interference with
the sound: (a) Limit the power so that it can't produce enough juice at the
end, or (b) Generate some power-line distortion that's so bad the power
supply can't deal with it. If the first mode were true, then the fuse would
melt--that's its job! The second mode is unfeasible, because an inch-long
piece of wire simply isn't complex enough or different enough to generate
some magical distortion which a paperclip or silver-solder joint is less
susceptible to. It's simply not possible, and anyone who claims otherwise is
either deluded or trying to sell you snake oil.

Colin

A fuse on the power input only has two potential modes of interference
with
the sound: (a) Limit the power so that it can't produce enough juice at
the
end, or (b) Generate some power-line distortion that's so bad the power
supply can't deal with it. If the first mode were true, then the fuse
would
melt--that's its job! The second mode is unfeasible, because an inch-long
piece of wire simply isn't complex enough or different enough to generate
some magical distortion which a paperclip or silver-solder joint is less
susceptible to. It's simply not possible, and anyone who claims otherwise
is
either deluded or trying to sell you snake oil.

It's conceivable that he had a poor connection to his original fuse, which
improved step by step as he substituted other things. If so, the thing to
do is clean the contacts and reinstall the original fuse (or rather an
electrically equivalent replacement, since if the original fuse was getting
old, it may have increased in resistance).

mc a écrit :

A fuse on the power input only has two potential modes of interference
with
the sound: (a) Limit the power so that it can't produce enough juice at
the
end, or (b) Generate some power-line distortion that's so bad the power
supply can't deal with it. If the first mode were true, then the fuse
would
melt--that's its job! The second mode is unfeasible, because an inch-long
piece of wire simply isn't complex enough or different enough to generate
some magical distortion which a paperclip or silver-solder joint is less
susceptible to. It's simply not possible, and anyone who claims otherwise
is
either deluded or trying to sell you snake oil.

It's conceivable that he had a poor connection to his original fuse, which
improved step by step as he substituted other things. If so, the thing to
do is clean the contacts and reinstall the original fuse (or rather an
electrically equivalent replacement, since if the original fuse was getting
old, it may have increased in resistance).

No. No. No. No. No. No. NO!!!!

"Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop
speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be
amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either:

a) DENY any changes exist in audio outside the realm of what they
already know (and you all know VERY little, from my vantage point)

b) OFFER what they consider more "rational theories" to explain what
they are too IGNORANT to explain, or believe.

Jesus, can't ONE of you idiots figure out a way to pop open an
amplifier and TRY the damn tweak out for yourselves, instead of killing
yourselves to argue against it??!! You've all spent so much time
telling me how full of **** I am about this, yet it takes less time to
actually solder a jumper bridge and LISTEN FOR YOURSELVES!! God forbid,
any of you zealots actually learns something new about the "magical
world of audio". Seems to me like you lazy mindless geeks don't even
want to learn anything new about audio. It must scare the hell out of
you.

I know you're "trying" to fight your own ignorance here MC, but you're
not trying hard enough. I already explained in another message in this
thread that I did the same tweak to other equipment, and the results
were the SAME. That rules out your stupid attempts to rationalize what
you don't understand. I just listened again to my preamp, before
unsoldering the jumper and permanently replacing the original fuse back
in its holder. There was NO mistaking the downgrade in sound quality.
Its very insulting when one is lectured to about a given subject by
those with NO familiarity with the subject, who believe themselves to
be experts nonetheless. Try having a 7 year old explain the meaning of
life to you, and see if you can keep a straight face. That's what you
look like to me!

On 25 Jan 2006 10:49:47 -0800, wrote:

Jesus, can't ONE of you idiots

If we are such idiots, why do you ask *us* questions?

It seems from my point of view that you are the one having a rather
limited amount of IQ. The ones you call "idiots" haven proven over and
over again to be rather clever... We haven't seen such proof about
you, I'm afraid.

My vote goes for troll. He doesn't even have the guts to tell us his
name.

Per.

Per Stromgren wrote:
On 25 Jan 2006 10:49:47 -0800, wrote:

Jesus, can't ONE of you idiots

If we are such idiots, why do you ask *us* questions?

You're obviously too stupid to understand the subtleties of ANYTHING,
aren't you? You've taken my comments about your stupidity OUT OF
CONTEXT (look up what this means, idiot). My words dont work that way.
In doing so, you are trying to twist my meaning, in order to appear to
win an argument you're engaging in with me. I came here to ask a
-technical- question only. I got met immediately with hostility and
insults. Yet I did NOT ask what people thought about the audibility of
this or that, because I know better than to try to engage in a
meaningful debate with low level wanna-be engineers and techie zealots.
Its like trying to convince a Jehovas Witness that God doesn't actually
exist. The bottom line of the problem is, that you RATs think that you
are "smart", if not brilliant, because have read technical information
on audio, and that anyone that hasn't, must succumb to whatever you
believe... because only you "understand how it all works". You then
(predicatably) proceed to ridicule and deride anyone that says ANYTHING
not conforming to your understanding of "how it all works" in audio.
The more they hold on to their opinions, the more you try to ridicule
them -- instead of keeping an open mind and trying to understand the
phenomenon (that is new to you) any further, for your own educational
purposes.

So I call you "stupid" not because I think I know everything about
audio and you don't. I call you "stupid" because YOU think you know
everything about audio, and that I don't. (RATs here in this thread
have stupidly said I dont even understand the basic function of what a
fuse is, and what its doing in a piece of audio equipement...). And I
also call you people "stupid", because every single one of you that
mocked me for even thinking fuses have an audible effect, provided not
a SINGLE shred of evidence to back up your groundless assertion. Yet,
this is EXACTLY what you people would demand of others in a debate. You
simply dismissed the very notion of me being correct on this, with
nothing but your stupid vigorous denials. Not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU has
actually tested my fuse tweak. And yet you have no end of stupid
opinions about it.

THIS, my friend, is what makes you people STUPID. The dogmatic
adherence to a preconceived set of beliefs, the fight and refusal to
let go of any of them, even if it might take 2 minutes of your time to
determine their validity. Of course, you take stupid to new levels, by
then arguing that even if one of you idiots could figure out how to
perform the tweak experiment (ie. which device opens the amp cover and
where the fuse holder lies...), you wouldn't do it anyway, because you
would just be putting yourself under the spell of the infamous "placebo
effect".... Now THAT is why I call you stupid. Because it isn't idiots
like you that advance the state of audio, since you fools have already
fooled yourself into believing that the only audible effects in audio
is what is already known by the majority.

Which brings me to another reason I call you people stupid: having the
sheer idiocy to mock and criticize Yves Bernard André, a successful
audiophile engineer on the forefront of the business, when none of you
idiots have ever designed an audiophile amplfiier that comes close to
sounding like his worst effort in your entire lives. All you wanna-be
engineer idiots can do is reveal yourselves to be jealous of an audio
engineer who is infintely more succesful and smarter than you people
are. And who KNOWS, as I do, that fuses have an audible quality
(although I did not do my tweak based on his knowledge, since I only
learned about the custom fuses in his amps after I did my experiment).

If there isn't enough here for me to explain how and why you and your
zealot buddies are imbeciles, please let me know, and I'll elaborate
further. Ive really only touched the surface of the extent of what
fools you people are.


It seems from my point of view that you are the one having a rather
limited amount of IQ.

Of course it does. No surprise there. But consider this: if you ARE the
idiot I say you are, how the **** would you know? Remember, you're too
much of a fool to realize what an idiot you are, and that I might know
something about audio that you're too stupid to know or find out for
yourself. Here's a clue for you: So far, I'm the ONLY ONE HERE that has
anything close to "proof" that validates what I'm saying. You have
provided NONE. Ergo, you're just another idiot on the net, flapping
your gums.

The ones you call "idiots" haven proven over and
over again to be rather clever... We haven't seen such proof about
you, I'm afraid.

Are you playing games again? Where the **** in this thread has any of
you idiots "proven over and over again" that your vigorous denials
about the audibility of fuses have been proven true? I'm sorry I must
have missed the details of the trials. Show me the posts that I missed
that contained the so-called "proof", idiot. Because all I've seen in
60 messages is a confederacy of religious audio dunces all arguing
about how full of **** I am, without bothering to offer a shred of
anything to argue against it.

My vote goes for troll. He doesn't even have the guts to tell us his
name.

It doesn't surprise me that you're too stupid to read a message header
either. Hint: its not at the bottom..... My vote goes for mindless
imbecile, and that's all you've proven yourself to be.


Per.

"Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop
speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be
amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either:

*Chuckle*

thread that I did the same tweak to other equipment, and the results
were the SAME. That rules out your stupid attempts to rationalize what
you don't understand. I just listened again to my preamp, before

What is stupid about looking for a possible explanation for the phenomenon
you say you observed? I didn't say you didn't observe it.

Put back the recommended fuse. There is a chance that the fuse that was
originally in the amp, was the wrong type. Read the label, or the
instructions to find out the proper type and fuse size.

Operating ANY device without the proper electrical protection is dangerous,
in the event of a short or overload. The amp can be a fire hazard, or safety
hazard if it is not properly protected.

--

JANA
_____


wrote in message
ups.com...

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start? What are
the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?

writes:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse,
especially if you are changing the main amplifier use.

I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect
that you though you were improving the device by changing the
fuse.

The original fuse is pretty low resistance already, a 500 mA
fuse having typically resistance of less than 0.5 ohms and maximum
voltage drop of 230 mV.. Those are pretty little when comparing
to mains voltage coming in and also to the other resistances on
the system (mains wiring in wall, inside equipment, mains
transformer primary resistance etc..).

I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had
any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier
was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house
on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance
than changing the fuse.

Source for fuse information:
http://www.cooperet.com/library/products/GMA_Specs.pdf

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home.

Running the equipment without fuse has a very considerable fire risk!
If somethign fails inside your equipment (can fail more often when
equipment gets old), then in case of short circuit on the electronics
the equipment mains fuse normally blows before smoke starts coming
out..

If you take out the fuse, then in case of short circuit your
equipment starts easily taking lots of mains power...
When transformer output is short circuited it can easily take
10 times more than it's rated power from mains.
This power gets dissipated inside your equipment at some place
(usually most in transformer, some power on wiring and component
where short circuit happened)... Things will prety quicly get
quite hot... bad smell amd smoke coming out..
If you are lucky the transformer primary might burn cut
or your main fuse on your distribution panel blows... in less
fortunate case the flames start coming out together with the
smoke from your equipment.

It is dangerous to run equipment without fuse or wrong size fuse.
It can easily burn down your house. And if your insurance company
finds out that you intentianally replaces your fuses with
something else, they most definately will not pay any money to you.
So if this gambling you made on operating equipment without proper
fuses blows, you will need to start thinking what is to live
without your house and things inside it and no compensation for
them. And possibley killing/injuring/harming somebody else living on the
house or nearby, and getting sued because of the illegal electrical
modifications you made to your equipment that caused that fire!

Th equipment are originally designed to be operated with the
proper fuses installed in them. When used in this way they should
be reasonably safe (very unlikely to burn down your house).
If you take the fuse protection, then one very necessary layer
of security is taken away.

In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start?

If you operate them withotu fuse and a serious short circuit
happens inside those equipment, then I think yo have soemthing
like 20-50% change of getting fire on that case!
That's just quessing. The percentages can vary greatly
depending on their construction and their mains amplifiers.

What are the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur?
(so far, no problems!).

Hard to say. But there are real changes.
As you know from other electrical equipment, they will not
last forever.. usually fail within 5-20 years more or less...

Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?

Not considerable grater than with properly fused amplifier I think.

The fire risk is your main risk you need to worry about.

--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/

I suppose the bottom line is that if you eliminate the fuse in a piece of
equipment that was obviously designed to require one, and it starts a fire,
your fire insurance doesn't cover it.

mc wrote:
I suppose the bottom line is that if you eliminate the fuse in a piece of
equipment that was obviously designed to require one, and it starts a fire,
your fire insurance doesn't cover it.

No problems there, then. I don't have fire insurance.

wrote:
mc wrote:
I suppose the bottom line is that if you eliminate the fuse in a piece of
equipment that was obviously designed to require one, and it starts a fire,
your fire insurance doesn't cover it.

No problems there, then. I don't have fire insurance.

What is the actual model and make of the equipment you've modified?
Other than your ears,have you done any measurements to substantiate
the "sounds better" claim of your jumpered safety device?
It's sounds like your modding a late 70's early 80's unit.
Good luck finding replacement parts when it does start to glow.
Feel free to throw some derogatory remarks my way too :-)
By the way if you don't own the dwelling and it's multi-unit,
you'll be paying for the damages when it does start the fire,
hopefully only destroying property and not lives.

On 25 Jan 2006 12:28:02 -0800, wrote:

Good luck finding replacement parts when it does start to glow.
Feel free to throw some derogatory remarks my way too :-)
By the way if you don't own the dwelling and it's multi-unit,
you'll be paying for the damages when it does start the fire,
hopefully only destroying property and not lives.

We're getting sidetracked here. Safety is important. But
catastrophic failure which would cause melt-down is rare. And anyway,
the power circuit is protected by other fuses or equivalent
contact-breakers.

Removing half-an-ohm or a couple of contacts from the primary power
circuit just COULD have an effect. Considering the path that power
has taken from generating station to amplifier, it's highly unlikely
that modifying just the last few inches could be critical. But let
that pass. We have an easier target. Fuse orientation. If this
made a difference (in an AC circuit, for goodness' sake:-) there's
only one explanation.

wrote:
wrote:
mc wrote:
I suppose the bottom line is that if you eliminate the fuse in a piece of
equipment that was obviously designed to require one, and it starts a fire,
your fire insurance doesn't cover it.

No problems there, then. I don't have fire insurance.

What is the actual model and make of the equipment you've modified?

Why, are you an insurance claims adjuster? I dont believe it matters,
but I dont mind saying: the amp is a Technics SA-80, the preamp in
question is a Hitachi HCA-8300. And no, this is NOT what I use in my
stereo system!

Other than your ears,have you done any measurements to substantiate
the "sounds better" claim of your jumpered safety device?

FIrst of all, Im gonna point out that didn't make any official "suonds
better claim". I came here asking a technical question, and mentioned
the audibility of the fuse in passing in the course of explaining my
query. But yes, if you want it to be official, I will make the "claim"
that "no fuses sound better than fuses". Now since YOU and your
religious cohorts are the ones that picked apart my query and attacked
me because of what I mentioned in passing, since YOU are the ones that
have a problem with this, then what the hell measurements have YOU done
to substantiate YOUR claims that fuses can not possibly have an audible
effect? Hell, I haven't even seen one of you mindless imbeciles
actually test this out, let alone take measurements on a test bench!!!

It's sounds like your modding a late 70's early 80's unit.

Brilliant deduction. Especially given that I said in this thread the
gear is about 25 years old or more.

Good luck finding replacement parts when it does start to glow.

Well I havent destroyed it in a blazing inferno, even after a months
time of operating it without a heatsink. You might be disappointed to
learn that I also didnt destroy it after placing the amp in a deep
freezer the last two days (in another valiant effort to improve the
sound...). Id say shes a tough old bird, the Technics. But if it does
go, Im quite sure I could replace the amp easier than you could replace
that blob of **** you call a "brain", chumly.

Feel free to throw some derogatory remarks my way too :-)

Okay, dickweed. Since everyone else here has felt free to throw
derogatory remarks MY way when I asked an innocent technical question
about amplifiers with no undue disrespect toward anyone, I have no
problems with this. ****face.

By the way if you don't own the dwelling and it's multi-unit,
you'll be paying for the damages when it does start the fire,
hopefully only destroying property and not lives.

Interesting that you say "WHEN it does start the fire", like as if you
KNOW it will, in all your RAT smugness. But thats what idiots do, isn't
it? Assume thing to be true, when they may not be. I dont mind
"destroying lives", since I have a smoke detector and it would just be
the lives of my annoying neighbors (with their equally annoying crying
babies), who probably don't have one. But I admit I would feel a loss
if I destroyed my old Tecnichs amp. But not anything that I couldnt
replace with 20 bucks. And dont you think 20 bucks is worth paying in
the name of scientific advances in audio? Of course you dont, you
conservative nitwit. Thats why people like me will always be advancing
the great state of our hobby, and people like you will always...

....well, youll always be able to sit back and live your life on a
newsgroup, pretending you know everything when you dont, and deriding
those who fall within your radar and make "claims" as you call them,
that conflict with your religious beliefs. Oh but I forogt... you dont
believe you have any, do you?

What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem
attacks and insults. It is all very funny until someone loses an eye. Then
it's frickin' hilarious!

But to answer the title question, it is *not* unsafe to operate an amplifier
with no fuse as long as everything is working properly, and if you are
willing to accept the risk of severe damage and fire if something does fail.
To be honest, no audio equipment that I have owned in the past 30 years has
ever blown a line fuse, so the risk is probably very low. That being said,
It is cheaper to replace a blown fuse and a shorted output transistor or a
filter capacitor than it is to replace the original failed part *and* a
power transformer, or an entire circuit board with traces burned off, or an
amplifier with capacitor spew all over the inside -- or an incinerated house
and its once-living occupants.

As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design
experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason)
should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is
properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part
refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the
like.

Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally
to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside
the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any
nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like
that once for a custom application.

Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no
scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we
can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).

Karl Uppiano wrote:
What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem
attacks and insults. It is all very funny until someone loses an eye. Then
it's frickin' hilarious!

But to answer the title question, it is *not* unsafe to operate an amplifier
with no fuse as long as everything is working properly, and if you are
willing to accept the risk of severe damage and fire if something does fail.
To be honest, no audio equipment that I have owned in the past 30 years has
ever blown a line fuse, so the risk is probably very low. That being said,
It is cheaper to replace a blown fuse and a shorted output transistor or a
filter capacitor than it is to replace the original failed part *and* a
power transformer, or an entire circuit board with traces burned off, or an
amplifier with capacitor spew all over the inside -- or an incinerated house
and its once-living occupants.

As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design
experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason)
should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is
properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part
refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the
like.

Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally
to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside
the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any
nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like
that once for a custom application.

Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no
scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we
can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).

I have actually had an amplifier that was blowing line fuses (2).
Stopped at that point and had it repaired, rectifier circuit had
a dead short to ground. Thank God it had a grounded cord set.
My foil hat is Paul Revere style:-)

had a dead shot

Karl Uppiano wrote:
What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem
attacks and insults.


WTF are you talking about "degenerated to"? I was attacked with ad
hominem insults from the very beginning, and not a single RATter ever
proved a single argument against me.

As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design
experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason)
should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is
properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part
refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the
like.

"Should"... techie translation for "does".

Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally
to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside
the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any
nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like
that once for a custom application.

Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no
scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we
can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).

And yet companies like YBA perform this mystic art on a regular
basis....

On 29 Jan 2006 20:45:22 -0800, wrote:

engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).

And yet companies like YBA perform this mystic art on a regular
basis....

Are you SURE he doesn't just take a competent design then look at
every component with the agenda: "Now, could this possibly be done in
a more expensive way?" There's a willing market.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On 29 Jan 2006 20:45:22 -0800, wrote:

engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).

And yet companies like YBA perform this mystic art on a regular
basis....

Are you SURE he doesn't just take a competent design then look at
every component with the agenda: "Now, could this possibly be done in
a more expensive way?" There's a willing market.

Are you SURE you didn't leave your brains stuck in your asshole this
morning? Either prove your claim or shut the **** up. Supposedly, you
audio zealots consider yourselves "men of science", all practical and
****.... not a one of you ever proved ****, out of the 1,000 claims
I've read in this thread. NOT ONE. All any of you has ever done is ask
me to prove YOUR arguments.

It is to laugh.

In article .com, wrote:

Laurence Payne wrote:
On 29 Jan 2006 20:45:22 -0800, wrote:

engineering is a waste of time, and designing a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).

And yet companies like YBA perform this mystic art on a regular
basis....

Are you SURE he doesn't just take a competent design then look at
every component with the agenda: "Now, could this possibly be done in
a more expensive way?" There's a willing market.

Are you SURE you didn't leave your brains stuck in your asshole this
morning? Either prove your claim or shut the **** up. Supposedly, you
audio zealots consider yourselves "men of science", all practical and
****.... not a one of you ever proved ****, out of the 1,000 claims
I've read in this thread. NOT ONE. All any of you has ever done is ask
me to prove YOUR arguments.

It is to laugh.


You seemed to do weird things in you experiment with fuses.
You gave a bunch of strange devices to impliment a test.
You could have done the obvious first. Keep incrasing fuse
amperage and give the steps of change. With your senses, perhaps
you could hear the difference with each doubling of the fuse rating.
Then, you could have given the sound of different fuse companies.

I wonder how long have you had the Hitachi preamp. I have to clean
mine out every few years. I clean the switches and pots on
my dear HCA-8300. The unit should be far more susceptable
on sound quality by cleaning than just changing fusing. I also
changed out some caps way back when. Minor Pooge.
If you monkey with any old equipment, it's liable to sound different just by banging on it.


greg

wrote in message
oups.com...

Karl Uppiano wrote:
What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem
attacks and insults.


WTF are you talking about "degenerated to"? I was attacked with ad
hominem insults from the very beginning, and not a single RATter ever
proved a single argument against me.

Well, the shrillness (not in the audio sense) definitely escalates as you
read down the thread.

As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design
experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason)
should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is
properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part
refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and
the
like.

"Should"... techie translation for "does".

The entire goal of science and engineering is to characterize and model a
phenomenon with a rational explanation and then use the model to predict the
future, i.e., to create repeatable designs with minimal tweaking and high
reliability and stability. I say "should" because it's a prediction in the
sense that I would be surprised if it "shouldn't". In order to accept the
premise that a line fuse would have a perceptible effect on the audio, I
need a physical model that explains why that is. Without that, it is just a
hypothesis. We might be able to rule out anectotal reports with double-blind
testing. If the phenomenon is thus proven to be repeatable, then the next
task is to provide an explanation, a model, so that we can understand what
is happening. Getting at the truth is an arduous, iterative, rigorous
process. It takes a lot of work to prove (by you, the proponent of the
effect) or to disprove (by the detractors of the effect). Just yelling "yes
it does", "no it doesn't", doesn't cut it.

Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are
generally
to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses
inside
the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any
nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like
that once for a custom application.

Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no
scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we
can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing
a
good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident).

And yet companies like YBA perform this mystic art on a regular
basis....

Well, if they consistently and provably produce superior results, they must
have a model. Or, they stumbled on a successful formula by accident or some
other non-scientific methodology and just keep repeating the same steps by
rote, without understanding what it is they are doing - look out if they
ever want to change a feature! Engineering, experience and understanding
simply streamlines the process, and makes it more predictable.

Engineering is also all about compromise. Even if it could be proven that
line fuses do hurt the audio, the decision has to be made whether the
trade-off is worth it to include the fuse for safety reasons.

Karl Uppiano wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Karl Uppiano wrote:


"Should"... techie translation for "does".

The entire goal of science and engineering is to characterize and model a
phenomenon with a rational explanation and then use the model to predict the
future, i.e., to create repeatable designs with minimal tweaking and high
reliability and stability.

Why do you suppose that's relevant to this discussion? After 125
attacks in this thread, I haven't seen a SINGLE RAT member gather up
enough scientific curiousity to perform the experiments in question; in
order to characerize and model the phenomenon. Instead, all I got was
dumbass presumptions based on misguided half-assed theories about how
none of this could possibly work. When scientists and engineers are
afraid to find "rational explanations" where their colleagues don't,
you can't stand behind the image of "scientists and engineers" and
claim they're the holders of the truth - until proven otherwise.

I say "should" because it's a prediction in the
sense that I would be surprised if it "shouldn't". In order to accept the
premise that a line fuse would have a perceptible effect on the audio, I
need a physical model that explains why that is.

No you don't; you simply need the physical model; which is the
alternate fuse, in this case. Then you run tests on that model.
Couldn't be simpler. Where are your test results?

Don't tell me you need to know "why something is", in order to accept
that it exists. We don't know how the universe came into being, but the
fact you exist, assuming you do, means the universe and all we do know
that it comprises of, does exist.

Without that, it is just a
hypothesis. We might be able to rule out anectotal reports with double-blind
testing.

Then do the DBTs on alternate fuses, if that's your bag. But note that
I, and many other advanced audiohiles in the audio community, don't
beleive in DBTs. They'll tell you NOTHING, except that its very hard to
ever get a positive result with audio DBTs (there are complex
neurological reasons for the failure of the DBT test in audio that DBT
zealots don't understand and don't want to understand....).



If the phenomenon is thus proven to be repeatable, then the next
task is to provide an explanation, a model, so that we can understand what
is happening.

Although its only been a few days since the fuse tests, I'm FAR beyond
that these days, and whiel you're still grappling with the simple
notion of whether fuses have an impact on sound quality, I.m currently
testing audio phenomenon that makes your little fuse controversy look
like a "are there differences in speakers" controversy. I can tell you
the phenomenon I've been testing recently has proven to be repeatable
to me. But if you start asking me to provide an explanation..... well,
theres no way no how I could ever begin to imagine ever doing that. I
don't think anyone on earth understands what is happening behind these
ideas. So does that make these tweaks useless? Don't be ridiculous!
They are just as valable whether you understand them or not, whether
you use them or not.


Getting at the truth is an arduous, iterative, rigorous
process.

Only if you see it as something to battle.

It takes a lot of work to prove (by you, the proponent of the
effect) or to disprove (by the detractors of the effect). Just yelling "yes
it does", "no it doesn't", doesn't cut it.

I don't think you get it... I don't have anything to "prove" to
anybody. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince a group of
infamously narrow-minded hobbyists to believe what they are already
predisposed to not believe. If anyone here has a sincere curiousity
about the fuse tweak, or any other I mentioned, then its up to you to
do your own experiments. And determine what value it has for yourself.
That is ALL you can do.

Well, if they consistently and provably produce superior results, they must
have a model. Or, they stumbled on a successful formula by accident or some
other non-scientific methodology and just keep repeating the same steps by
rote, without understanding what it is they are doing - look out if they
ever want to change a feature!


Let's just say for the sake of argument, that André, like the infamous
loud-mouthed know-nothing troll known as Arny Krueger, has no idea why
his adding a blue light next to the CD laser pickup works. He just
knows it does. I don't see what there is to change. If it works, it
works. That means he can repeat it in 10,000 products, it will still
work.

Engineering, experience and understanding
simply streamlines the process, and makes it more predictable.

Certainly engineering is the cornerstone of building audio products.
But you get too caught up in understanding processes you may not be
ready to understand, and what you do is limit yourself to what is
already known and predictable. I`m sorry, but that makes for mediocre
audio equipment. Which describes most audio products. There are few
true innovators in the field. As many will say, YBA is certainly one of
them.


Engineering is also all about compromise. Even if it could be proven that
line fuses do hurt the audio, the decision has to be made whether the
trade-off is worth it to include the fuse for safety reasons.

Apparently, if what I read here is true, you don't have a choice about
this, as there are governmetn rules requiring fuses in such equipment.
But in practical terms, I still question whether the fuses are
necessary as fire prevention in more benign equipment, like cd and dvd
players (with their tiny little power transformers....).

I think André already found the trade-off: use higher grade fuses.

wrote:
Karl Uppiano wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Karl Uppiano wrote:


"Should"... techie translation for "does".

The entire goal of science and engineering is to characterize and modela
phenomenon with a rational explanation and then use the model to predict the
future, i.e., to create repeatable designs with minimal tweaking and high
reliability and stability.

Why do you suppose that's relevant to this discussion? After 125
attacks in this thread, I haven't seen a SINGLE RAT member gather up
enough scientific curiousity to perform the experiments in question; in
order to characerize and model the phenomenon. Instead, all I got was
dumbass presumptions based on misguided half-assed theories about how
none of this could possibly work. When scientists and engineers are
afraid to find "rational explanations" where their colleagues don't,
you can't stand behind the image of "scientists and engineers" and
claim they're the holders of the truth - until proven otherwise.

I say "should" because it's a prediction in the
sense that I would be surprised if it "shouldn't". In order to accept the
premise that a line fuse would have a perceptible effect on the audio, I
need a physical model that explains why that is.

No you don't; you simply need the physical model; which is the
alternate fuse, in this case. Then you run tests on that model.
Couldn't be simpler. Where are your test results?

Don't tell me you need to know "why something is", in order to accept
that it exists. We don't know how the universe came into being, but the
fact you exist, assuming you do, means the universe and all we do know
that it comprises of, does exist.

Without that, it is just a
hypothesis. We might be able to rule out anectotal reports with double-blind
testing.

Then do the DBTs on alternate fuses, if that's your bag. But note that
I, and many other advanced audiohiles in the audio community, don't
beleive in DBTs. They'll tell you NOTHING, except that its very hard to
ever get a positive result with audio DBTs (there are complex
neurological reasons for the failure of the DBT test in audio that DBT
zealots don't understand and don't want to understand....).



If the phenomenon is thus proven to be repeatable, then the next
task is to provide an explanation, a model, so that we can understand what
is happening.

Although its only been a few days since the fuse tests, I'm FAR beyond
that these days, and whiel you're still grappling with the simple
notion of whether fuses have an impact on sound quality, I.m currently
testing audio phenomenon that makes your little fuse controversy look
like a "are there differences in speakers" controversy. I can tell you
the phenomenon I've been testing recently has proven to be repeatable
to me. But if you start asking me to provide an explanation..... well,
theres no way no how I could ever begin to imagine ever doing that. I
don't think anyone on earth understands what is happening behind these
ideas. So does that make these tweaks useless? Don't be ridiculous!
They are just as valable whether you understand them or not, whether
you use them or not.


Getting at the truth is an arduous, iterative, rigorous
process.

Only if you see it as something to battle.

It takes a lot of work to prove (by you, the proponent of the
effect) or to disprove (by the detractors of the effect). Just yelling "yes
it does", "no it doesn't", doesn't cut it.

I don't think you get it... I don't have anything to "prove" to
anybody. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince a group of
infamously narrow-minded hobbyists to believe what they are already
predisposed to not believe. If anyone here has a sincere curiousity
about the fuse tweak, or any other I mentioned, then its up to you to
do your own experiments. And determine what value it has for yourself.
That is ALL you can do.

Well, if they consistently and provably produce superior results, they must
have a model. Or, they stumbled on a successful formula by accident or some
other non-scientific methodology and just keep repeating the same stepsby
rote, without understanding what it is they are doing - look out if they
ever want to change a feature!


Let's just say for the sake of argument, that André, like the infamous
loud-mouthed know-nothing troll known as Arny Krueger, has no idea why
his adding a blue light next to the CD laser pickup works. He just
knows it does. I don't see what there is to change. If it works, it
works. That means he can repeat it in 10,000 products, it will still
work.

Engineering, experience and understanding
simply streamlines the process, and makes it more predictable.

Certainly engineering is the cornerstone of building audio products.
But you get too caught up in understanding processes you may not be
ready to understand, and what you do is limit yourself to what is
already known and predictable. I`m sorry, but that makes for mediocre
audio equipment. Which describes most audio products. There are few
true innovators in the field. As many will say, YBA is certainly one of
them.


Engineering is also all about compromise. Even if it could be proven that
line fuses do hurt the audio, the decision has to be made whether the
trade-off is worth it to include the fuse for safety reasons.

Apparently, if what I read here is true, you don't have a choice about
this, as there are governmetn rules requiring fuses in such equipment.
But in practical terms, I still question whether the fuses are
necessary as fire prevention in more benign equipment, like cd and dvd
players (with their tiny little power transformers....).

I think André already found the trade-off: use higher grade fuses.

Another proof of why audiophool is a common synonym.
You gave us so much detailed information as to be able to
repeat your observations.
I'm heading down to the Salvation Army store right now to find some
30 year old LO-FI components to swap/eliminate fuses.
You can read my findings when they're published.
I've wondered if the only drugs you take were tested by
anecdotal methodology.
" Hey man, this is really good ****."

wrote in message
oups.com...

Let's just say for the sake of argument, that André, like the infamous
loud-mouthed know-nothing troll known as Arny Krueger, has no idea why
his adding a blue light next to the CD laser pickup works. He just
knows it does. I don't see what there is to change. If it works, it
works. That means he can repeat it in 10,000 products, it will still
work.

Since you took my name in vain...

In fact I know why adding a blue light next to the CD laser pickup has no
reliable audible effect.

Therefore, I know for sure that it does not work.

Furthermore I know why repeating it will do no good for sound quality.

Bypassing the fuse is like shooting the messenger.