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  #1   Report Post  
Todd McFadden
 
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Default Behringer - Very Disturbing Article

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd


  #2   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
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Todd McFadden wrote:
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:


I don't know who did it first, but dbx also made (or still makes) a
preamp with a yellow LED to illuminate the tube. Like the Behringer, it
also had a "show window" for the tube, and the marketing department
decided that the tube glow wasn't bright enough.

  #3   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
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"Todd McFadden"
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838



** I am no Behringer lover - but this ******'s story is a total crock of
****.

I hope Berringer sue.




........... Phil




  #4   Report Post  
Ricky Hunt
 
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"Todd McFadden" wrote in message
...
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd


They're not the only ones that do this. As long as there are people gullible
enough to buy the "glowing tubes = warm music" myth don't expect it to go
away.


  #5   Report Post  
yodedude2
 
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Well, if the market isn't concerned with how closely Behringer
duplicates others' designs, why should they care much about how the
design works--or doesn't work. IOW, Behringer customers aren't really
concerned about the company's ethics, are they? later, ron

....
Todd McFadden wrote:
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd




  #6   Report Post  
Federico
 
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Are you bothered when you discover that a singer uses Autotune in studio
works?
I am not... If it works, it works!
I understand that Behringer is doing a frode but as a sound engineer what
would you expect from it?

Thet reminds me when I was a kid and I discovered that U2 guitar player The
Edge wasn't playing all the notes.... it was a delay!!!
F.


  #7   Report Post  
Ben Bradley
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 00:32:22 GMT, "Federico"
wrote:

Are you bothered when you discover that a singer uses Autotune in studio
works?
I am not... If it works, it works!
I understand that Behringer is doing a frode but as a sound engineer what
would you expect from it?

Thet reminds me when I was a kid and I discovered that U2 guitar player The
Edge wasn't playing all the notes.... it was a delay!!!


When I was new to rec.audio.pro I was told that someday I would get
my ears, and when I did, I would be able to discover that these studio
tricks were being used by, of all things, LISTENING!

Of course, I always thought (until told otherwise, and I actually
played it at half speed and heard it for myself) that the instrumental
part on "In My Life" was done on a harpsichord. It was kinda bright,
had a kinda fast decay, but what did I know...

F.


  #8   Report Post  
Pooh Bear
 
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Todd McFadden wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd


No surprise frankly.

Behringer simply feeds the marker with what it wants.

If the market is receptive to crap- then it's likely to be fed **** !

Graham


  #9   Report Post  
Pooh Bear
 
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Phil Allison wrote:

"Todd McFadden"
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838


** I am no Behringer lover - but this ******'s story is a total crock of
****.

I hope Berringer sue.

.......... Phil


You reckon he faked the pics ?

Graham


  #10   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
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"Todd McFadden"
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838



** I am no Behringer lover - but this ******'s story is a total crock of
****.

I hope Behringer sue.




........... Phil







  #11   Report Post  
Richard Crowley
 
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"Todd McFadden" wrote ...
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838


Which do you find outrageous? The questionable starved
tube circuit, or the fake heater glow from the LEDs?

Anyone who believes in one deserves the other, IMHO.
Seems like par for the course to me.

Doesn't change my opinion of Behringer. Just reinforces
my opinion of people who believe in magic circuits.
  #12   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Pooh Bear" wrote
in message
Todd McFadden wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd


No surprise frankly.

Behringer simply feeds the marker with what it wants.

If the market is receptive to crap- then it's likely to
be fed **** !


Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is
upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its
warm, yellow glow.

Someone needs a life!


  #13   Report Post  
Pooh Bear
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote
in message
Todd McFadden wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd


No surprise frankly.

Behringer simply feeds the marker with what it wants.

If the market is receptive to crap- then it's likely to
be fed **** !


Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is
upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its
warm, yellow glow.

Someone needs a life!


The purchaser maybe ? (or should that be the designer ? )

Graham


  #14   Report Post  
 
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I don't know who did it first, but dbx also made (or still makes) a
preamp with a yellow LED to illuminate the tube. Like the Behringer, it
also had a "show window" for the tube, and the marketing department
decided that the tube glow wasn't bright enough.




Well, sure. Other have done it before. Behringer nicked this idea
too!

  #15   Report Post  
TimPerry
 
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Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is
upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its
warm, yellow glow.

Someone needs a life!


The purchaser maybe ? (or should that be the designer ? )

Graham


the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red
LEDs for overdrive.

they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance?




  #16   Report Post  
Ron Capik
 
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TimPerry wrote:

...snip..
warm, yellow glow.
Someone needs a life!

The purchaser maybe ? (or should that be the designer ? )
Graham


the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red
LEDs for overdrive.

they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance?


Nah, that red glow of the plate overheating isn't dynamic enough. I'd opt for
the blues and greens of arcing and e-beams hitting the glass. G

Me, I put blue filters in front of the tube's viewing port on my Tube-EQs
to cut down on the backlighting glare.

Later...

Ron Capik
--



  #17   Report Post  
Pooh Bear
 
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TimPerry wrote:


Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is
upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its
warm, yellow glow.

Someone needs a life!


The purchaser maybe ? (or should that be the designer ? )

Graham


the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red
LEDs for overdrive.

they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance?


If ppl want *toys* - I'm happy to oblige !

Just don't let toys masquerade as serious pro-audio !

Graham


  #18   Report Post  
Federico
 
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"Richard Crowley" ha scritto nel messaggio
...
"Todd McFadden" wrote ...


Doesn't change my opinion of Behringer. Just reinforces
my opinion of people who believe in magic circuits.


Maybe that's why my $99.99 electronic "fat burner - muscle grower - life
saver" is not working properly...
F.


  #19   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:45:19 -0400, "TimPerry"
wrote:

the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red
LEDs for overdrive.

they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance?


The early 1970's were truly great, but who *really*
wants to relive 'em?

"It was the best of times. It was the worst of times"
etc.

Chris Hornbeck
  #20   Report Post  
Ben Bradley
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:10:22 -0400, "Todd McFadden"
wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:


Did you mean "I am generally NOT a Behringer fan"? That would make
more sense in context.

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838


Quoting a paragraph (I hope the author doesn't SUE me...):

"My feeling is however that probably the tube is connected and run
very conservatively in order to prolong its life. Hence the heater
current is too small to make the tube glow."

This doesn't seem likely. If the heater is operated well below its
rated voltage, emission would surely be WAY down, so much that the
tube will be useless in a circuit.

" And if it doesn't glow, what would have been the point of putting it
on display? Hence the LEDs to compensate. Perhaps they were an
afterthought."

Does this site (record-producer.com) have any Behringer ads?
Perhaps a better question is:
DID this site have any Behringer ads?

Todd


Could we ALL (the article author, and all posters in this thread)
be named in the next Behringer lawsuit? Stay tuned for the next
episode of "As the CDR turns."



  #21   Report Post  
Bob Geary
 
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"Todd McFadden" wrote in message
...
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd



Those things must be engineered to science-fiction-level tolerances -
it's not even that the light of the LEDs affects the sound (that would
be amazing enough in itself), but that the *energy generated by the
user's awareness of the LEDs* affects the sound.

Gotta get me some of that tech.

  #22   Report Post  
Ron Capik
 
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:45:19 -0400, "TimPerry"
wrote:

the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red
LEDs for overdrive.

they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance?


The early 1970's were truly great, but who *really*
wants to relive 'em?

"It was the best of times. It was the worst of times"
etc.

Chris Hornbeck


What, you don't buy equipment for all the blinking lights?
Wow, look at all the pretty flashing colors......... G

Later...

Ron Capik
--





  #23   Report Post  
Ron Capik
 
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Bob Geary wrote:

...snip..

Those things must be engineered to science-fiction-level tolerances -
it's not even that the light of the LEDs affects the sound (that would
be amazing enough in itself), but that the *energy generated by the
user's awareness of the LEDs* affects the sound.

Gotta get me some of that tech.


That's the acoustic placebo effect in action there. I believe
it's similar to never blind testing found in some other audio
forums, reviews, etc. Or in other words: who put the psycho
in psychoacoustics?

Later...

Ron Capik
--


  #24   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
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Todd McFadden wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838


No, not really. I think they copied the idea from dbx. And, of course,
it was ART that came up with the whole cheesy starved plate "fake tube"
preamp to begin with. Of course, that was an attempt to get something
cheap with a tube in it that didn't infringe on the Aphex 107 fake tube
circuit patent.

What do you want? People want stuff with tubes in it, they don't want
to pay money, and they don't care if it sounds like crap because most of
the people the MI vendors are selling to don't know how to listen. As
a result, there is a lot of crap on the market.

"If fools did not go to market, bad wares would not be sold"
-- Ibo Proverb

It's depressing, but you can't blame Behringer because they are just
copying the whole idea.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #25   Report Post  
Art Science
 
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On 19 Sep 2005 16:42:30 -0700, Mike Rivers wrote:

Todd McFadden wrote:
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:


I don't know who did it first, but dbx also made (or still makes) a
preamp with a yellow LED to illuminate the tube. Like the Behringer, it
also had a "show window" for the tube, and the marketing department
decided that the tube glow wasn't bright enough.


The Hammond XK-3 (a $2000+ unit which attempts to sound like the classic
elctro-mechanical B-3) also employs this technology and ruse to convince
the buyer that the tube is doing something.

BTW--there are Hammond fanatics who swear by the sound of the Xk-3.

"May you live in interesting times"

Art


  #26   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:38:15 GMT, Ron Capik
wrote:

What, you don't buy equipment for all the blinking lights?
Wow, look at all the pretty flashing colors......... G


Do you really mean to tell us, in a public forum,
that you *don't* have the speaker wires with the
water jackets lit by blue lights?

The depths to which one may fall... Sometimes
I just can't fathom some folks' priorities.


Thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck
  #27   Report Post  
Geoff@work
 
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"Todd McFadden" wrote in message
...
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd



Well you certainly have 'starved plate' designs that give a sort of crass
tube effect without the cost of a real PSU (like most-if-not-all cheapo
tube pre's really are), but this would appear to be a 'starved filament'
design !!!

geoff


  #28   Report Post  
Geoff@work
 
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"Ricky Hunt" wrote in message
news:OfIXe.354066$_o.232914@attbi_s71...
"Todd McFadden" wrote in message
...
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd


They're not the only ones that do this. As long as there are people
gullible enough to buy the "glowing tubes = warm music" myth don't expect
it to go away.



Well it aint "warm music", it's "yellow music".

geoff


  #29   Report Post  
Joe Kesselman
 
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TimPerry wrote:
Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is
upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its
warm, yellow glow.


Hey, why not leave the tube _out_ of the circuit and light it entirely
with LEDs? You'd probably get better sound quality, and you'd never have
to worry about the tube burning out.
  #30   Report Post  
Pooh Bear
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

Todd McFadden wrote:

I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838


No, not really. I think they copied the idea from dbx. And, of course,
it was ART that came up with the whole cheesy starved plate "fake tube"
preamp to begin with. Of course, that was an attempt to get something
cheap with a tube in it that didn't infringe on the Aphex 107 fake tube
circuit patent.

What do you want? People want stuff with tubes in it, they don't want
to pay money, and they don't care if it sounds like crap because most of
the people the MI vendors are selling to don't know how to listen. As
a result, there is a lot of crap on the market.


That is so *agonisingly* true. It's become a damm circus !

Graham



  #31   Report Post  
Ricky Hunt
 
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"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...

That's the acoustic placebo effect in action there. I believe
it's similar to never blind testing found in some other audio
forums, reviews, etc. Or in other words: who put the psycho
in psychoacoustics?


As much as I hate to admit it (and think it's total bunk) that's the only
thing that validates audio snake oil since we're talking enjoyment of art
which is totally subjective. So if a person believes something to be true,
it might as well be.


  #32   Report Post  
Ben Bradley
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:03:02 +1200, "Geoff@work"
wrote:


"Todd McFadden" wrote in message
...
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Todd



Well you certainly have 'starved plate' designs that give a sort of crass
tube effect without the cost of a real PSU (like most-if-not-all cheapo
tube pre's really are), but this would appear to be a 'starved filament'
design !!!


It could even be a 'starved vacuum' design, where the silvery area
around the getter has turned white. Would any buyer of this thing be
the wiser???


geoff


  #33   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:13:03 -0400, Joe Kesselman
wrote:

Hey, why not leave the tube _out_ of the circuit and light it entirely
with LEDs? You'd probably get better sound quality, and you'd never have
to worry about the tube burning out.


And to make it even stranger, both common assumptions
about tubes are at least misguided.

Numero uno is that tubes/ vacuum valves are somehow
distortion generators. In fact, ordinary garden-variety
triodes like 12AX7's are ridiculously linear by any
modern standard, if properly used. Yeah; weird, but true.
10 volts RMS output with distortion artifacts 60dB
down *before feedback* and a gain of 30dB is something
acheivable in modern devices only with complementary
FET's, and real complemetarity is tough to come by.

I'd be greatly interested to be contradicted here,
because valves (and FET's) have their impedance and
noise matching issues.

And, as far as reliablity, I have lots of tubes in perfectly
good working condition older than I am, and I was born
in 1950.

Good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck
  #35   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
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"Chris Hornbeck"



Numero uno is that tubes/ vacuum valves are somehow
distortion generators. In fact, ordinary garden-variety
triodes like 12AX7's are ridiculously linear by any
modern standard, if properly used.



** Those last three words are the catch.


Yeah; weird, but true.
10 volts RMS output with distortion artifacts 60dB
down *before feedback* and a gain of 30dB



** Not bloody likely with a resistor acting as plate load.




........... Phil





  #36   Report Post  
Joe Kesselman
 
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You mean Behringer can't even come up with an original "fake
circuit" idea???


Some folks won't give Behringer credit for anything, even for anything
bad. Which, methinks, says more about them than about the company.
  #37   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:49:21 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

Yeah; weird, but true.
10 volts RMS output with distortion artifacts 60dB
down *before feedback* and a gain of 30dB



** Not bloody likely with a resistor acting as plate load.


Actually very easy to do with a big enough resistor.

It's the *big enough resistor* part that's the
sticking point. It implies complex load lines having
minimums of several times plate resistance, an
appreciation of the importance of the elliptical
real-world reactive load, and an appreciation
for detail, where several pF matter, even in our
audio world.

And, on the input side, appropriate impedance matching
for noise considerations. Very expensive to do right
in modern (low-manufacturing-volume) context.

But, as far as fundamental linearity goes, if the
vacuum valve were to be invented today, it might well
be hailed as a miracle of modern weird tech. It
does do some otherwise difficult tasks better'n
anything else. Yet.

A lot better'n cell phones, 's my take.

Chris Hornbeck
  #38   Report Post  
Phil Allison
 
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"Chris Hornbeck"
"Phil Allison"

Yeah; weird, but true.
10 volts RMS output with distortion artifacts 60dB
down *before feedback* and a gain of 30dB



** Not bloody likely with a resistor acting as plate load.


Actually very easy to do with a big enough resistor.

It's the *big enough resistor* part that's the
sticking point. It implies complex load lines having
minimums of several times plate resistance, an
appreciation of the importance of the elliptical
real-world reactive load, and an appreciation
for detail, where several pF matter, even in our
audio world.



* Totally off with the pixies and goblins - as usual.




............ Phil



  #39   Report Post  
Chris Hornbeck
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:46:52 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

* Totally off with the pixies and goblins - as usual.


Very soon anyway. Good night,

Chris Hornbeck
  #40   Report Post  
Richard
 
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What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not
light up very much under normal use .... What next ? people claiming
that clip/peak indicators are a con because the light is not actually
from components catching fire ????

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