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#1
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Behringer - Very Disturbing Article
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous:
http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd |
#2
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Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: I don't know who did it first, but dbx also made (or still makes) a preamp with a yellow LED to illuminate the tube. Like the Behringer, it also had a "show window" for the tube, and the marketing department decided that the tube glow wasn't bright enough. |
#3
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"Todd McFadden" I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 ** I am no Behringer lover - but this ******'s story is a total crock of ****. I hope Berringer sue. ........... Phil |
#4
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"Todd McFadden" wrote in message
... I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd They're not the only ones that do this. As long as there are people gullible enough to buy the "glowing tubes = warm music" myth don't expect it to go away. |
#5
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Well, if the market isn't concerned with how closely Behringer
duplicates others' designs, why should they care much about how the design works--or doesn't work. IOW, Behringer customers aren't really concerned about the company's ethics, are they? later, ron .... Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd |
#6
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Are you bothered when you discover that a singer uses Autotune in studio
works? I am not... If it works, it works! I understand that Behringer is doing a frode but as a sound engineer what would you expect from it? Thet reminds me when I was a kid and I discovered that U2 guitar player The Edge wasn't playing all the notes.... it was a delay!!! F. |
#7
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 00:32:22 GMT, "Federico"
wrote: Are you bothered when you discover that a singer uses Autotune in studio works? I am not... If it works, it works! I understand that Behringer is doing a frode but as a sound engineer what would you expect from it? Thet reminds me when I was a kid and I discovered that U2 guitar player The Edge wasn't playing all the notes.... it was a delay!!! When I was new to rec.audio.pro I was told that someday I would get my ears, and when I did, I would be able to discover that these studio tricks were being used by, of all things, LISTENING! Of course, I always thought (until told otherwise, and I actually played it at half speed and heard it for myself) that the instrumental part on "In My Life" was done on a harpsichord. It was kinda bright, had a kinda fast decay, but what did I know... F. |
#8
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Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd No surprise frankly. Behringer simply feeds the marker with what it wants. If the market is receptive to crap- then it's likely to be fed **** ! Graham |
#9
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Phil Allison wrote: "Todd McFadden" I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 ** I am no Behringer lover - but this ******'s story is a total crock of ****. I hope Berringer sue. .......... Phil You reckon he faked the pics ? Graham |
#10
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"Todd McFadden"
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 ** I am no Behringer lover - but this ******'s story is a total crock of ****. I hope Behringer sue. ........... Phil |
#11
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"Todd McFadden" wrote ...
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Which do you find outrageous? The questionable starved tube circuit, or the fake heater glow from the LEDs? Anyone who believes in one deserves the other, IMHO. Seems like par for the course to me. Doesn't change my opinion of Behringer. Just reinforces my opinion of people who believe in magic circuits. |
#12
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"Pooh Bear" wrote
in message Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd No surprise frankly. Behringer simply feeds the marker with what it wants. If the market is receptive to crap- then it's likely to be fed **** ! Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its warm, yellow glow. Someone needs a life! |
#13
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Arny Krueger wrote:
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd No surprise frankly. Behringer simply feeds the marker with what it wants. If the market is receptive to crap- then it's likely to be fed **** ! Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its warm, yellow glow. Someone needs a life! The purchaser maybe ? (or should that be the designer ? ) Graham |
#14
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I don't know who did it first, but dbx also made (or still makes) a
preamp with a yellow LED to illuminate the tube. Like the Behringer, it also had a "show window" for the tube, and the marketing department decided that the tube glow wasn't bright enough. Well, sure. Other have done it before. Behringer nicked this idea too! |
#15
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Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its warm, yellow glow. Someone needs a life! The purchaser maybe ? (or should that be the designer ? ) Graham the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red LEDs for overdrive. they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance? |
#16
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TimPerry wrote:
...snip.. warm, yellow glow. Someone needs a life! The purchaser maybe ? (or should that be the designer ? ) Graham the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red LEDs for overdrive. they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance? Nah, that red glow of the plate overheating isn't dynamic enough. I'd opt for the blues and greens of arcing and e-beams hitting the glass. G Me, I put blue filters in front of the tube's viewing port on my Tube-EQs to cut down on the backlighting glare. Later... Ron Capik -- |
#17
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TimPerry wrote:
Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its warm, yellow glow. Someone needs a life! The purchaser maybe ? (or should that be the designer ? ) Graham the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red LEDs for overdrive. they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance? If ppl want *toys* - I'm happy to oblige ! Just don't let toys masquerade as serious pro-audio ! Graham |
#18
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"Richard Crowley" ha scritto nel messaggio ... "Todd McFadden" wrote ... Doesn't change my opinion of Behringer. Just reinforces my opinion of people who believe in magic circuits. Maybe that's why my $99.99 electronic "fat burner - muscle grower - life saver" is not working properly... F. |
#19
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:45:19 -0400, "TimPerry"
wrote: the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red LEDs for overdrive. they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance? The early 1970's were truly great, but who *really* wants to relive 'em? "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times" etc. Chris Hornbeck |
#20
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:10:22 -0400, "Todd McFadden"
wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: Did you mean "I am generally NOT a Behringer fan"? That would make more sense in context. http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Quoting a paragraph (I hope the author doesn't SUE me...): "My feeling is however that probably the tube is connected and run very conservatively in order to prolong its life. Hence the heater current is too small to make the tube glow." This doesn't seem likely. If the heater is operated well below its rated voltage, emission would surely be WAY down, so much that the tube will be useless in a circuit. " And if it doesn't glow, what would have been the point of putting it on display? Hence the LEDs to compensate. Perhaps they were an afterthought." Does this site (record-producer.com) have any Behringer ads? Perhaps a better question is: DID this site have any Behringer ads? Todd Could we ALL (the article author, and all posters in this thread) be named in the next Behringer lawsuit? Stay tuned for the next episode of "As the CDR turns." |
#21
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"Todd McFadden" wrote in message
... I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd Those things must be engineered to science-fiction-level tolerances - it's not even that the light of the LEDs affects the sound (that would be amazing enough in itself), but that the *energy generated by the user's awareness of the LEDs* affects the sound. Gotta get me some of that tech. |
#22
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:45:19 -0400, "TimPerry" wrote: the next logical step is to modulate the backlighting... and switch in red LEDs for overdrive. they got to come up with a catchy name... how about ultragroovytubyessance? The early 1970's were truly great, but who *really* wants to relive 'em? "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times" etc. Chris Hornbeck What, you don't buy equipment for all the blinking lights? Wow, look at all the pretty flashing colors......... G Later... Ron Capik -- |
#23
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Bob Geary wrote:
...snip.. Those things must be engineered to science-fiction-level tolerances - it's not even that the light of the LEDs affects the sound (that would be amazing enough in itself), but that the *energy generated by the user's awareness of the LEDs* affects the sound. Gotta get me some of that tech. That's the acoustic placebo effect in action there. I believe it's similar to never blind testing found in some other audio forums, reviews, etc. Or in other words: who put the psycho in psychoacoustics? Later... Ron Capik -- |
#24
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Todd McFadden wrote:
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 No, not really. I think they copied the idea from dbx. And, of course, it was ART that came up with the whole cheesy starved plate "fake tube" preamp to begin with. Of course, that was an attempt to get something cheap with a tube in it that didn't infringe on the Aphex 107 fake tube circuit patent. What do you want? People want stuff with tubes in it, they don't want to pay money, and they don't care if it sounds like crap because most of the people the MI vendors are selling to don't know how to listen. As a result, there is a lot of crap on the market. "If fools did not go to market, bad wares would not be sold" -- Ibo Proverb It's depressing, but you can't blame Behringer because they are just copying the whole idea. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#25
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On 19 Sep 2005 16:42:30 -0700, Mike Rivers wrote:
Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: I don't know who did it first, but dbx also made (or still makes) a preamp with a yellow LED to illuminate the tube. Like the Behringer, it also had a "show window" for the tube, and the marketing department decided that the tube glow wasn't bright enough. The Hammond XK-3 (a $2000+ unit which attempts to sound like the classic elctro-mechanical B-3) also employs this technology and ruse to convince the buyer that the tube is doing something. BTW--there are Hammond fanatics who swear by the sound of the Xk-3. "May you live in interesting times" Art |
#26
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:38:15 GMT, Ron Capik
wrote: What, you don't buy equipment for all the blinking lights? Wow, look at all the pretty flashing colors......... G Do you really mean to tell us, in a public forum, that you *don't* have the speaker wires with the water jackets lit by blue lights? The depths to which one may fall... Sometimes I just can't fathom some folks' priorities. Thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck |
#27
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"Todd McFadden" wrote in message ... I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd Well you certainly have 'starved plate' designs that give a sort of crass tube effect without the cost of a real PSU (like most-if-not-all cheapo tube pre's really are), but this would appear to be a 'starved filament' design !!! geoff |
#28
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"Ricky Hunt" wrote in message news:OfIXe.354066$_o.232914@attbi_s71... "Todd McFadden" wrote in message ... I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd They're not the only ones that do this. As long as there are people gullible enough to buy the "glowing tubes = warm music" myth don't expect it to go away. Well it aint "warm music", it's "yellow music". geoff |
#29
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TimPerry wrote:
Letsee, the tube is part of the circuit but the author is upset because some LEDs were placed behind it to enhance its warm, yellow glow. Hey, why not leave the tube _out_ of the circuit and light it entirely with LEDs? You'd probably get better sound quality, and you'd never have to worry about the tube burning out. |
#30
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 No, not really. I think they copied the idea from dbx. And, of course, it was ART that came up with the whole cheesy starved plate "fake tube" preamp to begin with. Of course, that was an attempt to get something cheap with a tube in it that didn't infringe on the Aphex 107 fake tube circuit patent. What do you want? People want stuff with tubes in it, they don't want to pay money, and they don't care if it sounds like crap because most of the people the MI vendors are selling to don't know how to listen. As a result, there is a lot of crap on the market. That is so *agonisingly* true. It's become a damm circus ! Graham |
#31
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"Ron Capik" wrote in message
... That's the acoustic placebo effect in action there. I believe it's similar to never blind testing found in some other audio forums, reviews, etc. Or in other words: who put the psycho in psychoacoustics? As much as I hate to admit it (and think it's total bunk) that's the only thing that validates audio snake oil since we're talking enjoyment of art which is totally subjective. So if a person believes something to be true, it might as well be. |
#32
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:03:02 +1200, "Geoff@work"
wrote: "Todd McFadden" wrote in message ... I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd Well you certainly have 'starved plate' designs that give a sort of crass tube effect without the cost of a real PSU (like most-if-not-all cheapo tube pre's really are), but this would appear to be a 'starved filament' design !!! It could even be a 'starved vacuum' design, where the silvery area around the getter has turned white. Would any buyer of this thing be the wiser??? geoff |
#33
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:13:03 -0400, Joe Kesselman
wrote: Hey, why not leave the tube _out_ of the circuit and light it entirely with LEDs? You'd probably get better sound quality, and you'd never have to worry about the tube burning out. And to make it even stranger, both common assumptions about tubes are at least misguided. Numero uno is that tubes/ vacuum valves are somehow distortion generators. In fact, ordinary garden-variety triodes like 12AX7's are ridiculously linear by any modern standard, if properly used. Yeah; weird, but true. 10 volts RMS output with distortion artifacts 60dB down *before feedback* and a gain of 30dB is something acheivable in modern devices only with complementary FET's, and real complemetarity is tough to come by. I'd be greatly interested to be contradicted here, because valves (and FET's) have their impedance and noise matching issues. And, as far as reliablity, I have lots of tubes in perfectly good working condition older than I am, and I was born in 1950. Good fortune, Chris Hornbeck |
#34
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#35
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"Chris Hornbeck" Numero uno is that tubes/ vacuum valves are somehow distortion generators. In fact, ordinary garden-variety triodes like 12AX7's are ridiculously linear by any modern standard, if properly used. ** Those last three words are the catch. Yeah; weird, but true. 10 volts RMS output with distortion artifacts 60dB down *before feedback* and a gain of 30dB ** Not bloody likely with a resistor acting as plate load. ........... Phil |
#36
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You mean Behringer can't even come up with an original "fake
circuit" idea??? Some folks won't give Behringer credit for anything, even for anything bad. Which, methinks, says more about them than about the company. |
#37
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:49:21 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote: Yeah; weird, but true. 10 volts RMS output with distortion artifacts 60dB down *before feedback* and a gain of 30dB ** Not bloody likely with a resistor acting as plate load. Actually very easy to do with a big enough resistor. It's the *big enough resistor* part that's the sticking point. It implies complex load lines having minimums of several times plate resistance, an appreciation of the importance of the elliptical real-world reactive load, and an appreciation for detail, where several pF matter, even in our audio world. And, on the input side, appropriate impedance matching for noise considerations. Very expensive to do right in modern (low-manufacturing-volume) context. But, as far as fundamental linearity goes, if the vacuum valve were to be invented today, it might well be hailed as a miracle of modern weird tech. It does do some otherwise difficult tasks better'n anything else. Yet. A lot better'n cell phones, 's my take. Chris Hornbeck |
#38
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"Chris Hornbeck" "Phil Allison" Yeah; weird, but true. 10 volts RMS output with distortion artifacts 60dB down *before feedback* and a gain of 30dB ** Not bloody likely with a resistor acting as plate load. Actually very easy to do with a big enough resistor. It's the *big enough resistor* part that's the sticking point. It implies complex load lines having minimums of several times plate resistance, an appreciation of the importance of the elliptical real-world reactive load, and an appreciation for detail, where several pF matter, even in our audio world. * Totally off with the pixies and goblins - as usual. ............ Phil |
#39
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:46:52 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote: * Totally off with the pixies and goblins - as usual. Very soon anyway. Good night, Chris Hornbeck |
#40
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What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not
light up very much under normal use .... What next ? people claiming that clip/peak indicators are a con because the light is not actually from components catching fire ???? |
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