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hollywood_steve
 
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Default UPS for location use - question

Like a lot of cheap fools, I waited until after I had an "accident" on
a job before I purchased a UPS for my location rig. (someone pulled
the plug on my power strip a few minutes before the start of the
show!). OK, lesson learned.

While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor? Anyone out
there have a clue about this stuff?
  #2   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

hollywood_steve wrote:

While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor? Anyone out
there have a clue about this stuff?


That depends on how long your recorder can go without power. Put it on
the UPS and pull the plug and see what happens.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #3   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

hollywood_steve wrote:

While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor? Anyone out
there have a clue about this stuff?


That depends on how long your recorder can go without power. Put it on
the UPS and pull the plug and see what happens.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #4   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

hollywood_steve wrote:

Like a lot of cheap fools, I waited until after I had an "accident" on
a job before I purchased a UPS for my location rig. (someone pulled
the plug on my power strip a few minutes before the start of the
show!). OK, lesson learned.


Ouch. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.




While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor?


2-4 ms should be fine unless your power supplies have woefully inadequate storage caps.

I'll again suggest one of the Oneac units since they have builtin power conditioning, often useful in dodgy house power environments. Their ON400A is reasonably portable and not hard to find used. Much more expensive than an APC but much more protection. They've also got a 700VA online unit in their Sinergy line. Their site appears to be undergoing a rework--some of the ULRs I had cached are no longer valid and the links to their spec sheets are broken right now, but they're a really great company to deal with.



  #5   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

hollywood_steve wrote:

Like a lot of cheap fools, I waited until after I had an "accident" on
a job before I purchased a UPS for my location rig. (someone pulled
the plug on my power strip a few minutes before the start of the
show!). OK, lesson learned.


Ouch. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.




While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor?


2-4 ms should be fine unless your power supplies have woefully inadequate storage caps.

I'll again suggest one of the Oneac units since they have builtin power conditioning, often useful in dodgy house power environments. Their ON400A is reasonably portable and not hard to find used. Much more expensive than an APC but much more protection. They've also got a 700VA online unit in their Sinergy line. Their site appears to be undergoing a rework--some of the ULRs I had cached are no longer valid and the links to their spec sheets are broken right now, but they're a really great company to deal with.





  #6   Report Post  
Richard Tomkins
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What about using APC systems?


"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...
hollywood_steve wrote:

Like a lot of cheap fools, I waited until after I had an "accident" on
a job before I purchased a UPS for my location rig. (someone pulled
the plug on my power strip a few minutes before the start of the
show!). OK, lesson learned.


Ouch. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.




While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor?


2-4 ms should be fine unless your power supplies have woefully inadequate

storage caps.

I'll again suggest one of the Oneac units since they have builtin power

conditioning, often useful in dodgy house power environments. Their ON400A
is reasonably portable and not hard to find used. Much more expensive than
an APC but much more protection. They've also got a 700VA online unit in
their Sinergy line. Their site appears to be undergoing a rework--some of
the ULRs I had cached are no longer valid and the links to their spec sheets
are broken right now, but they're a really great company to deal with.





  #7   Report Post  
Richard Tomkins
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What about using APC systems?


"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...
hollywood_steve wrote:

Like a lot of cheap fools, I waited until after I had an "accident" on
a job before I purchased a UPS for my location rig. (someone pulled
the plug on my power strip a few minutes before the start of the
show!). OK, lesson learned.


Ouch. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.




While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor?


2-4 ms should be fine unless your power supplies have woefully inadequate

storage caps.

I'll again suggest one of the Oneac units since they have builtin power

conditioning, often useful in dodgy house power environments. Their ON400A
is reasonably portable and not hard to find used. Much more expensive than
an APC but much more protection. They've also got a 700VA online unit in
their Sinergy line. Their site appears to be undergoing a rework--some of
the ULRs I had cached are no longer valid and the links to their spec sheets
are broken right now, but they're a really great company to deal with.





  #10   Report Post  
Chris Warner
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wow a topic that I actually have a lot of experience with. I work for a
company in the Southern Califronia area that specializes in Inverter
technology for Egress lighting and data centers(2 of these out they're).
Teh line interactive units and the online we call them double conversion
units tend to be the best. Something that I have learned from this is that
lighitng loads are THE most difficult loads to supply power too and High
Intendisty Discharge lights (HID's) tend to be the most difficult. 4-6ms is
about right for line interactive, they should be on the inverter within a
half cycle of AC, if not then they are what we call Interruptable Power
Sources. The difficult part of the Line interactive and the double
conversion units is that they are VERY power hungry, however, in most cases
there isn't much choice. Some of the newer technology I get to mess around
with right now is dead efficient although all of it is designed for
installed systems. I can tell you that I have experience with Best power
products and they tend to be good stuff especially for computer systems. A
good rule of thumb is that if it will hold a PC it should hold anything.

Cheers

BTW Don't forget to test the batteries on that UPS on a revolving basis, or
you could find out that they are no good at the wrong time!!!

"hollywood_steve" wrote in message
om...
Like a lot of cheap fools, I waited until after I had an "accident" on
a job before I purchased a UPS for my location rig. (someone pulled
the plug on my power strip a few minutes before the start of the
show!). OK, lesson learned.

While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor? Anyone out
there have a clue about this stuff?



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.682 / Virus Database: 444 - Release Date: 5/12/2004




  #11   Report Post  
Chris Warner
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wow a topic that I actually have a lot of experience with. I work for a
company in the Southern Califronia area that specializes in Inverter
technology for Egress lighting and data centers(2 of these out they're).
Teh line interactive units and the online we call them double conversion
units tend to be the best. Something that I have learned from this is that
lighitng loads are THE most difficult loads to supply power too and High
Intendisty Discharge lights (HID's) tend to be the most difficult. 4-6ms is
about right for line interactive, they should be on the inverter within a
half cycle of AC, if not then they are what we call Interruptable Power
Sources. The difficult part of the Line interactive and the double
conversion units is that they are VERY power hungry, however, in most cases
there isn't much choice. Some of the newer technology I get to mess around
with right now is dead efficient although all of it is designed for
installed systems. I can tell you that I have experience with Best power
products and they tend to be good stuff especially for computer systems. A
good rule of thumb is that if it will hold a PC it should hold anything.

Cheers

BTW Don't forget to test the batteries on that UPS on a revolving basis, or
you could find out that they are no good at the wrong time!!!

"hollywood_steve" wrote in message
om...
Like a lot of cheap fools, I waited until after I had an "accident" on
a job before I purchased a UPS for my location rig. (someone pulled
the plug on my power strip a few minutes before the start of the
show!). OK, lesson learned.

While reading up on the different types of UPS systems, I learned that
the "online" (always on battery supply) version might be better than
the "line interactive (monitors situation and switches to battery when
necessary). But I couldn't find an online version that wasn't grossly
oversized (and expensive) for the single hard disk recorder that I
plan on running off of it. I ended up with a rackmount Tripp-Lite
line interactive product, the SmartPro 450.

One spec that shows up on line interactive models that is not
applicable to online versions is the switchover or transfer time.
(the time it takes to switch over to battery power after it has
detected some sort of power problem. My unit is listed at 2 to 4
milliseconds, but I don't have any idea of that is adequate or if its
long enough to make the UPS an expensive boat anchor? Anyone out
there have a clue about this stuff?



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.682 / Virus Database: 444 - Release Date: 5/12/2004


  #12   Report Post  
hollywood_steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

*****
"Richard Tomkins" wrote in message ws.com...

What about using APC systems?


*****
I'll again suggest one of the Oneac units since they have builtin power

conditioning, often useful in dodgy house power environments.

*****


I chose the TrippLite over the APC units partially because the only
APC units that I saw in person were really cheap looking plastic
things. (I'm sure they make better products, but I didn't actually
see any). The TrippLite model I purchased is a reasonably solid 1RU
steel chassis that looks like it might hold up to road use. The APC
models looked more like they were made to sit under your desk (and be
careful not to kick it or step on the case, it might break!)

And none of the places I went to to check out UPS units had the Oneac
brand; this is the first I have heard of it. My TrippLite model is
certainly not a high end unit, but it offers much more capacity than I
need and it looked like it would hold up to location work. (damn,
that's another rack case to buy....)




*****
Put it on
the UPS and pull the plug and see what happens.
*****

Considering that a pulled plug cost me the data on a hard drive, I
don't think this is what I should do!!! I'll contact the manufacturer
of the recorder to inquire about this 2 to 4 millisecond delay.


steve

  #13   Report Post  
hollywood_steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default

*****
"Richard Tomkins" wrote in message ws.com...

What about using APC systems?


*****
I'll again suggest one of the Oneac units since they have builtin power

conditioning, often useful in dodgy house power environments.

*****


I chose the TrippLite over the APC units partially because the only
APC units that I saw in person were really cheap looking plastic
things. (I'm sure they make better products, but I didn't actually
see any). The TrippLite model I purchased is a reasonably solid 1RU
steel chassis that looks like it might hold up to road use. The APC
models looked more like they were made to sit under your desk (and be
careful not to kick it or step on the case, it might break!)

And none of the places I went to to check out UPS units had the Oneac
brand; this is the first I have heard of it. My TrippLite model is
certainly not a high end unit, but it offers much more capacity than I
need and it looked like it would hold up to location work. (damn,
that's another rack case to buy....)




*****
Put it on
the UPS and pull the plug and see what happens.
*****

Considering that a pulled plug cost me the data on a hard drive, I
don't think this is what I should do!!! I'll contact the manufacturer
of the recorder to inquire about this 2 to 4 millisecond delay.


steve

  #14   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Richard Tomkins wrote:
What about using APC systems?


The big APC units (Matrix, PowerArray, etc.) have real power conditioning in them and are pretty decent performers.

The cheap ones are, well--cheap.

Get out your 'scope and look at normal-mode and common-mode noise on the output waveforms (both on an off inverter) and you're in for a surprise. A friend recently started using a Vonage VoIP phone with his cable modem and had to ditch his APC UPS because it was causing all manner of noise when it was NOT on inverter. The small value series inductors used in cheap UPS's and so-called power conditioners from almost ALL vendors use these for RF filtering but the price you pay is increased source impedance of the power line as seen by your power supplies, resulting in an inability to keep spurious artifacts (fed back into the line by switching supplies) from infecting other gear in your system. You need a very low impedance line in order to sink all this hash and 90+% of the stuff people put inline just makes the situation worse.


  #15   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Richard Tomkins wrote:
What about using APC systems?


The big APC units (Matrix, PowerArray, etc.) have real power conditioning in them and are pretty decent performers.

The cheap ones are, well--cheap.

Get out your 'scope and look at normal-mode and common-mode noise on the output waveforms (both on an off inverter) and you're in for a surprise. A friend recently started using a Vonage VoIP phone with his cable modem and had to ditch his APC UPS because it was causing all manner of noise when it was NOT on inverter. The small value series inductors used in cheap UPS's and so-called power conditioners from almost ALL vendors use these for RF filtering but the price you pay is increased source impedance of the power line as seen by your power supplies, resulting in an inability to keep spurious artifacts (fed back into the line by switching supplies) from infecting other gear in your system. You need a very low impedance line in order to sink all this hash and 90+% of the stuff people put inline just makes the situation worse.




  #16   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

hollywood_steve wrote:

I'll again suggest one of the Oneac units since they have builtin power
conditioning, often useful in dodgy house power environments.



And none of the places I went to to check out UPS units had the Oneac
brand; this is the first I have heard of it.


It's an industrial/commercial/medical line (now owned by Chloride) and not really marketed at retail. It's hard to explain to a magazine-toting customer why your 400VA UPS costs more than all the "editors picks" he's holding in his hand, and I've yet to see a UPS review that bothers to look deeper than the UL requirements and features/runtime/etc. Industrial process guys, lab researchers, and medical customers understand the value of clean power and are willing to pay for it.

Best does a little better job at retail, but not with their premium units.

It's sort of like all the Chinese LDCs out there in the MI retail space. Hard to explain to the masses why they should spend $2k+ on a real mic when they have neither the ears nor the monitors to tell the difference.


Go get your 'scope and have a look...


  #17   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

hollywood_steve wrote:

I'll again suggest one of the Oneac units since they have builtin power
conditioning, often useful in dodgy house power environments.



And none of the places I went to to check out UPS units had the Oneac
brand; this is the first I have heard of it.


It's an industrial/commercial/medical line (now owned by Chloride) and not really marketed at retail. It's hard to explain to a magazine-toting customer why your 400VA UPS costs more than all the "editors picks" he's holding in his hand, and I've yet to see a UPS review that bothers to look deeper than the UL requirements and features/runtime/etc. Industrial process guys, lab researchers, and medical customers understand the value of clean power and are willing to pay for it.

Best does a little better job at retail, but not with their premium units.

It's sort of like all the Chinese LDCs out there in the MI retail space. Hard to explain to the masses why they should spend $2k+ on a real mic when they have neither the ears nor the monitors to tell the difference.


Go get your 'scope and have a look...


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