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  #81   Report Post  
Garthrr
 
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writes:

Actually, I'm really not an expert on the subject, as a matter of fact I
don't even attend church. From what I understand, God would have no gender
per se. I'm assuming that because of the power of God, ancient man referred
to God as masculine because women did not exhibit those kinds of traits or
at least were not percieved to exhibit those kinds of traits.


It depends on when in history you focus. In some societies God was feminine, in
most masculine. It had to do with farming practices for one thing.


Keep in mind
that the bible is really the only thing we have to go by (there are a few
things other than that) and even though the bible is supposed to be THE
documentation of Christianity and some of Judaism, it's still a document
contaminated by humans and their inherent bias and ignorance.


I would not agree that the Bible is the only thing we have to go on. There are
many beautiful spiritual traditions and books which each have their own way of
describing god or a universal intelligence. The Bible is the most well known in
the United States.


I am conservative by nature, but I am by no means a fundamentalist. Like I
said I don't attend church, I am fascinated by Christianity and theology as
a whole, but I don't buy into everything hook line and sinker.


Nice to know you are thinking for yourself and not blindly following what
others say to believe. Many many people do just that without so much as ever
even seriously questioning the validity of their beliefs. In fact in some cases
the very act of questioning them is a transgression isnt it?


The bible (I know I will get flamed for this!) wasn't just a religious
document, it was like a manual for living


Of course. Thats much of what any spiritual writing is. Otherwise, whats the
point?


I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his own
issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he was
gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest men
I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no body
who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man
because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to.


Gee you'd think that the most omniscient, powerful, intelligent, creative and
supreme entity in existence would be exempt from loneliness... Couldn't he at
least get cable?

Garth~




I liked that idea of
God (it was the first sensible description I had of God at that time) and
I've since had that image of him. I've always referred to God as masculine,
because everybody else did.












"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
  #82   Report Post  
Peter Larsen
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

As it is, gender implications in English seem to have changed
since I was in school. "Man is vivparous and he bears
live young" was a perfectly reasonable sentence not long ago,


Back then "man" and "Man" were different words.

--scott



Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************
  #83   Report Post  
Garthrr
 
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In article , "Arny Krueger"
writes:

God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a
literary device.


That seems very reasonable to me. With my paucity of knowledge about religion
in general I have no idea whether thats a widely held position or not. I would
have thought not but that might be my ignorance about Christianity.
I suspect that people may not be as far apart as one might think with respect
to their core religious and spiritual beliefs. I think there is a huge amount
of misunderstanding among people of one group as to what the other group
believes. Once it becomes a contentious argument any chance of clarifying
postions and defining terms becomes scarce as people then have egos to defend.
Also, the fact that some religions have been so fully co-opted by politics is a
sad thing as it has probably polluted the purity of the orginal ideas beyong
any repair for most people.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney
  #84   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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"Garthrr" wrote in message

In article , "Arny Krueger"
writes:


God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as
best, a literary device.


That seems very reasonable to me. With my paucity of knowledge about
religion in general I have no idea whether that's a widely held
position or not.


AFAIK all Moslems, Jews and Christians should agree with this vision of
God. The Devil is in the details.

I would have thought not but that might be my
ignorance about Christianity. I suspect that people may not be as far
apart as one might think with respect to their core religious and
spiritual beliefs.


I agree. The biggest danger is trying to say what God is, or is not with
almost any degree of specificity.

I think there is a huge amount of misunderstanding
among people of one group as to what the other group believes.


I agree. The next biggest danger is trying to say what someone else things
God is, or is not with almost any degree of specificity.

Once it becomes a contentious argument any chance of clarifying positions
and defining terms becomes scarce as people then have egos to defend.


As a RAO veteran, I'm intimately familiar with the end points of debating.

Also, the fact that some religions have been so fully co-opted by
politics is a sad thing as it has probably polluted the purity of the
original ideas beyond any repair for most people.


To me, a key thing is to remember that religions are fabrications of man. In
the context of orthodox Christianity, God didn't make Christianity. He made
Christ and a man does with him what he will, at his own risk.


  #85   Report Post  
WillStG
 
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"Arny Krueger"
"No religion" is in general, an unstable state, something like a vacuum on
the earth's surface. There's always something that wants to rush into it and
fill it.

Well - thing is Arny, that view presumes that man will forever be in a
state of separation from God. There is the view that eventually Mankind will
be restored back into their *original* relationship with the Creator, and as a
state of separation no longer exists there is no need of "Religion" per se.
In that original state everyone would have their spiritual senses fully opened.
That is the theological view that returning "Back to the Garden" is the end
of history.

One the ironies of life is the fact that Secular Humanism, at least in its
first two incarnations last century, clearly thought itself to be a religion. I
don't know of many modern secularists who would admit that they were religious.


Just as hard for an atheist to admit his "ism" is a beleif system that is
as rigid as any fundamentalist's views. It the nature of man to have to
beleive in _something_. Remove God and people put that same fervor somewhere
else, with all the attendant problems that any system of religious beleif can
have.

WillStg Well if you actually had a relationship with God or just a
basic respect for the Great Teachers of the Ages, you wouldn't be talking ****
like this either.

Agreed. What a lot of so-called atheists seem to do is to make up some crazy
religion, call it Christianity, and then tell everybody they think it is
stupid.

I'm prone to agree with the idea that their made-up religion is stupid. ;-)

It is certainly a narrow minded and dogmatic basis that some here would
judge people by ( Praying the Lord's Prayer/"Our Father" in Church is
"arrogant" and makes one a "penis-ist"?) But I think the problem is people
don't think very deeply about what they say so easily or reflect on their basic
assuptions often enough. Or perhaps aren't confronted enough. But I don't
care about being called an "Elmer Gantry" for being willing to do so, I know
who I am, and the fictitious creation an opponent of religion created and named
Elmer was never an Initiate into Tibetan Buddhism, or a School of the Ancient
Mysteries, or ... g

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits





  #87   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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WillStG wrote:

If that's not a problem for you Hank, then why not just come out and say
that you think you better than Jesus?


I am saying you never heard Jesus speak anything at all, and that there
is no way you cn trace convincingly the trail of so-called hisotry in a
way that supports your argument. What you believe is a story. So be it.

--
ha
  #90   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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Carlos Alden wrote:

WillStG wrote


But I think both you and Brother H. are so used to the Politically Correct
BS you have heard, that you just aren't aware what the implications are of
things you say and the positions you have been taking. So how fortunate for
you guys that I am here to help you out in that regard, eh? g


I usually don't contribute anything to political or religious posts, but
this comment really struck a nerve. If my opinion differs from yours, you
just chalk it up to PC brainwashing and dismiss me, or anything that you
don't agree with. (Sounds like Bill O'Reilly commenting on anything.)
That's trashy and intellectually cheap. I could do the same thing for
EVERYTHING you've written by attributing your viewpoints to mere
"religiously correct" brainwashing.


I was brainwashed in all the Christian dogma up until I was 14, when I
realized that god is much bigger than being somebody's angry but somewhat
forgiving Santa Claus daddy. The Bible only gives up hints as to the huge
and wonderful presence of god, and to take a piece of that and stamp it as
authentic, rejecting all others, is insecurity.


Carlos


Thou hast cut to the chase.

--
ha


  #91   Report Post  
S O'Neill
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:
The Jesus part seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately
well-documented example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was
a male with a physical body.


And another was a four-piece band from Liverpool in the late 60's.

  #92   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
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S O'Neill wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
The Jesus part seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately
well-documented example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was
a male with a physical body.


And another was a four-piece band from Liverpool in the late 60's.


No, as I recall, they were bigger than Jesus.

Although, seeing as how Oral Roberts claims that Jesus was 900 feet tall,
this seems a bit odd. I know that TV makes people look smaller, but Ringo
can't be THAT big.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #93   Report Post  
S O'Neill
 
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
S O'Neill wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

The Jesus part seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately
well-documented example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was
a male with a physical body.


And another was a four-piece band from Liverpool in the late 60's.



No, as I recall, they were bigger than Jesus.

Although, seeing as how Oral Roberts claims that Jesus was 900 feet tall,
this seems a bit odd. I know that TV makes people look smaller, but Ringo
can't be THAT big.


But Gort was.


  #94   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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WillStG wrote:
Steven Sullivan


Willstg Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's behalf, not
the writers
of the Gospel.


Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that

he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot
of people believe a lot of crazy ****.


What, are you stoned? I said Jesus presumed to *speak* for God, where did
I say or "presume" he was anything other than a man? Your preconceptions are
imposing themselves onto my words.



Yes, Jesus *presumed* to speak on god's behalf. A god who's as real
as unicorns and elves and the Easter Bunny.
And Jesus' words are all second-hand reportage. So, rational people should take
any of this seriously exactly why?


Imagine no religion...and as a result, not having stupid 'debates' like
this.


Well if you actually had a relationship with God or just a basic respect
for the Great Teachers of the Ages, you wouldn't be talking **** like this
eithier.


I respect great teachers, but I don't respect any teacher's claim to be a *god*.

I have the same relationship with gods that I have with other imaginary
characters that man has created. THe differences is I don't often see people
fervently affirming their faith in the Easter Bunny. Then again, there
are those Star Trek fans.....and believers in 'cable sound'.



--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director


  #95   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:
"WillStG" wrote in message

Steven Sullivan


Willstg Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's
behalf, not the writers of the Gospel.


Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that

he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot
of people believe a lot of crazy ****.


What, are you stoned? I said Jesus presumed to *speak* for God,
where did I say or "presume" he was anything other than a man? Your
preconceptions are imposing themselves onto my words.


Imagine no religion...and as a result, not having stupid 'debates'
like this.


"No religion" is in general, an unstable state, something like a vacuum on
the earth's surface. There's always something that wants to rush into it and
fill it.


Yes, the urge towards irraitonal belief is strong. THus is audiophilia explained.


One the ironies of life is the fact that Secular Humanism, at least in its
first two incarnations last century, clearly thought itself to be a
religion. I don't know of many modern secularists who would admit that they
were religious.


The only people I know who rant about 'secular humanists' are religious.


Well if you actually had a relationship with God or just a basic
respect for the Great Teachers of the Ages, you wouldn't be talking
**** like this either.


Agreed. What a lot of so-called atheists seem to do is to make up some crazy
religion, call it Christianity, and then tell everybody they think it is
stupid.


I'm prone to agree with the idea that their made-up religion is stupid. ;-)


All religions are made-up, Arny.

Interesting that you find yourself on Miho's side of this one.


--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director




  #97   Report Post  
Romeo Rondeau
 
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"Garthrr" wrote in message
...
writes:

Actually, I'm really not an expert on the subject, as a matter of fact I
don't even attend church. From what I understand, God would have no

gender
per se. I'm assuming that because of the power of God, ancient man

referred
to God as masculine because women did not exhibit those kinds of traits

or
at least were not percieved to exhibit those kinds of traits.


It depends on when in history you focus. In some societies God was

feminine, in
most masculine. It had to do with farming practices for one thing.


They are mostly masculine, though. I was speaking specifically about
Christianity.


Keep in mind
that the bible is really the only thing we have to go by (there are a few
things other than that) and even though the bible is supposed to be THE
documentation of Christianity and some of Judaism, it's still a document
contaminated by humans and their inherent bias and ignorance.


I would not agree that the Bible is the only thing we have to go on. There

are
many beautiful spiritual traditions and books which each have their own

way of
describing god or a universal intelligence. The Bible is the most well

known in
the United States.


I said that there were other things, but nobody pays any attention to them.
In Christianity the bible is it.

I am conservative by nature, but I am by no means a fundamentalist. Like

I
said I don't attend church, I am fascinated by Christianity and theology

as
a whole, but I don't buy into everything hook line and sinker.


Nice to know you are thinking for yourself and not blindly following what
others say to believe. Many many people do just that without so much as

ever
even seriously questioning the validity of their beliefs. In fact in some

cases
the very act of questioning them is a transgression isnt it?


This would be the reason I don't attend church.

The bible (I know I will get flamed for this!) wasn't just a religious
document, it was like a manual for living


Of course. Thats much of what any spiritual writing is. Otherwise, whats

the
point?


Most people don't see that though. They are too focused on the stories in
the bible to really understand what it is in practical terms to begin with.

I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his

own
issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he

was
gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest

men
I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no

body
who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man
because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to.


Gee you'd think that the most omniscient, powerful, intelligent, creative

and
supreme entity in existence would be exempt from loneliness... Couldn't he

at
least get cable?


That's what's so beautiful about the story, there's almost a fable in
itself. "Everybody needs somebody sometime"


  #98   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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WillStG wrote:

something first has to exist before we should bother over what sex it
might be


The point is what the nature of the relationship is. The point is that it
is personal and as close as a Parent and their child should be.



What is it about Believers and their penchant for Capitalization, anyway?




--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director


  #100   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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Romeo Rondeau wrote:

I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his own
issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he was
gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest men
I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no body
who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man
because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to. I liked that idea of
God (it was the first sensible description I had of God at that time) and
I've since had that image of him. I've always referred to God as masculine,
because everybody else did.


So, this guy was so smart that he could only imagine a 'god' who exhibited
the human trait of 'loneliness'?

It's amusing that believers always posit a god who is claimed to be
'incomprehensible' on the one hand, not to mention inconceivably powerful,
and on the other is oh so very human.

Isn't it likely that all 'gods' are projections of human hopes, fears,
dreams, imagination?



--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director




  #101   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:
"Garthrr" wrote in message


I've always wondered about this and never asked a "believer" but is
it your belief that God actually has a physical body and that it is
male?


That would be Jesus about 2000 years ago?


If the answer is yes then I guess there are all kinds of
questions that arise, but the first one to pop into my head would be;
is he, then, alone?


No, there is a Trinity which is ultimately one entity. The God part of the
Trinity is a transcendent being, by definition indescribable. The Jesus part
seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately well-documented
example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was a male with a
physical body. The Spirit part of the Trinity is well a spirit, totally
physically insubstantial yet perceptible.


or so the story goes.

There may at one time have been beings on the Earth with properties that led
to the various stories by the Greeks, Norse, Asian Indians, etc. Best guess:
they were angels doing things they shouldn't have been doing.


LOL. *Angels*? Arny, seriously, you believe this stuff?


I'm not impugning your
beliefs, honestly, just trying to get clear on what they are. It seems
hard for me to believe that anyone could conceive of a humanoid,
physical God


Right insofar as God is concerned.


but I cant really infer anything else from the concept
of God being male.


God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a
literary device.


For something so 'indescribable' believers sure have spent a lot of
energy describing it.


--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director


  #102   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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Garthrr wrote:
In article , "Arny Krueger"
writes:


God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a
literary device.


That seems very reasonable to me. With my paucity of knowledge about religion
in general I have no idea whether thats a widely held position or not.


*All* claims about gods come from the mouths and pens of men, and
should be evaluated accordingly. There are alas no properly documented instances
of a god actually speaking to humans, nor documents written by gods.
No properly documented evidence that gods even exist, actually.


to their core religious and spiritual beliefs. I think there is a huge amount
of misunderstanding among people of one group as to what the other group
believes.


Well, several of the major groups assert, without any reality-testing,
they're right about God and the others are wrong...end of story.
Hard to move on from there.


--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director


  #103   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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Christian Serig wrote:
Please take off the jokes regarding God. Does not belong here.



Neither to threads about god, but what the hell.



--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director


  #104   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
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Mark Steven Brooks wrote:
Please take off the jokes regarding God. Does not belong here.
Obviously the people who answered this are small minded and do not
believe in divine intervention even when it is the smallest of things
to let you know he is listening.



My God can kick the **** out of your God!


Hungarian is a language rich in epithets. One of them is used
upon entering a rival village:

"**** your God!"

and upon leaving:

"Our God ****s you!"



--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director


  #106   Report Post  
Romeo Rondeau
 
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"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his

own
issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he

was
gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest

men
I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no

body
who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man
because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to. I liked that idea

of
God (it was the first sensible description I had of God at that time)

and
I've since had that image of him. I've always referred to God as

masculine,
because everybody else did.


So, this guy was so smart that he could only imagine a 'god' who exhibited
the human trait of 'loneliness'?


No, I only told part of the story, it was a long trip and there was way more
that I would bother to type, I just included one very small part of the
conversation as an example.


It's amusing that believers always posit a god who is claimed to be
'incomprehensible' on the one hand, not to mention inconceivably powerful,
and on the other is oh so very human.


Actually, you missed my point. The loneliness was a Godly trait that he
passed on to us, since he made us in his image.


Isn't it likely that all 'gods' are projections of human hopes, fears,
dreams, imagination?


Our human hope, fears, dreams and imaginiation come from God, you have it
backwards.


  #107   Report Post  
Romeo Rondeau
 
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"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Garthrr wrote:
In article , "Arny Krueger"
writes:


God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as

best, a
literary device.


That seems very reasonable to me. With my paucity of knowledge about

religion
in general I have no idea whether thats a widely held position or not.


*All* claims about gods come from the mouths and pens of men, and
should be evaluated accordingly. There are alas no properly documented

instances
of a god actually speaking to humans, nor documents written by gods.
No properly documented evidence that gods even exist, actually.


And there is no evidence that God doesn't exist, either. Which is why it's
really pointless to discuss it, if you don't respect other people's
viewpoints.

to their core religious and spiritual beliefs. I think there is a huge

amount
of misunderstanding among people of one group as to what the other group
believes.


Well, several of the major groups assert, without any reality-testing,
they're right about God and the others are wrong...end of story.
Hard to move on from there.


Good point. Guess that's why they call it faith?


  #109   Report Post  
Kurt Albershardt
 
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S O'Neill wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:

seeing as how Oral Roberts claims that Jesus was 900 feet tall,
this seems a bit odd. I know that TV makes people look smaller, but
Ringo can't be THAT big.


But Gort was.


8'2" or 9'0" depending on which one.


  #111   Report Post  
Mark Steven Brooks
 
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To say that calling God "Father" is sexist and arrogant as H. said, or
infantile and the actual reason there is no world peace as you have said, is to
offer that opinion regarding the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Now if you
want to own that, that you think you are a higher authority on the matter than
he and that his teachings are destructive compared to your own, just come out
and say it outright Mark.

You haven't actually read or understood anything I've said in this thread.
And yes, I consider most religions and Christianity in particular to be a
cancer.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)
  #112   Report Post  
Romeo Rondeau
 
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"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Christian Serig wrote:
Please take off the jokes regarding God. Does not belong here.



Neither to threads about god, but what the hell.


You don't seem to have a problem jumping into the argument... g


  #114   Report Post  
Mark Steven Brooks
 
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And I'm a kook for saying it ls wrong
to insult people and denigrate them for calling God "Father", and for saying
such insults are extremely dogmatic and narrow minded? Fine.

In all honesty Will you appear to be the one who is dogmatic and narrow minded
throughout this entire thread. But being such you are unable to see it.



(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)
  #115   Report Post  
Mark Steven Brooks
 
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Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that
he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot
of people believe a lot of crazy ****.

And they'll be voting for Bush in the next election.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)


  #119   Report Post  
S O'Neill
 
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Default OT Wherever God closes a door, somewhere he opens a window

Kurt Albershardt wrote:
S O'Neill wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:

seeing as how Oral Roberts claims that Jesus was 900 feet tall,
this seems a bit odd. I know that TV makes people look smaller, but
Ringo can't be THAT big.



But Gort was.



8'2" or 9'0" depending on which one.


Oops. Decimal point error.

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