"Mark Steven Brooks" wrote in message
...
I don't do "creator" as any kind of entity. I speculate it's a process,
not a being.

Right, I think one of the prime causes of violence and suffering in this
world
comes from people anthroporphising 'God'. A God with desires, with an ego
etc.

I think of God as the experience of oneness that occurs when one steps
outside
one's ego. God for me is a verb, or perhaps an adverb.

Or an exclamation point.

Glenn D.

WillStG wrote:
(Mark Steven Brooks)
God as person again, a very immature response I think. The problem with 'he'
is that all of our patriarchal concepts are overlayed on to something which
transcends all of these things.

Jesus taught his followers to pray to "our Father", that was his
relationship with God that he was trying to pass on. If the Creator says "Call
me Dad", who are you Mark to call that sexist or chauvinistic or immature? You
are presuming to speak on God's behalf, when by all accounts "he" has exactly
the opposite opinion of the one you would claim.

"All accounts" were written by humans, presuming to speak on God's behalf...men, for the most part.
Not at all surpisingly, their "God' tends to act a lot like a human
(albeit a rather pathological one at times).


Imagine no religion.

--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:56:14 -0800, Bob Cain
wrote:


hank alrich wrote:

http://www.simulation-argument.com/

What a resource! Thanks. I really enjoy that argument,
particularly the speculation that quantum mechanics merely
exposes the granularity of the simulation's event list,
below which it becomes the Monte Carlo method on a grand
scale. The pixel size, so to speak. :-)


Aren't you bothered by the argument's linear model?
IOW, can chaotic "reality" be modeled linearly?

Didn't know it was a linear model across the board. If so,
that does bother me. I rather doubt that god and his
buddies limited their simulator to linear methods. I know I
won't make that mistake.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

George wrote:



and you don't for even one second really belive Jesus was the son of
God, do you?

I don't for a second believe that Jesus even existed. God,
on the other hand...


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Call me a liberal, but I beleive that even you George are a son of
God.

and I believe I am as much a god as any, possible more so beacuse I
create my destiny
it is not waiting for me if I say the right words on the right days, or
send enough of my money off to gods adminstrative offices on earth

This shows that you don't know anything about salvation. :-)

So it is because Jesus prayed "our Father" that there is no world
peace?
Now _that_ is infantile.


no the reason there is no peace is beacuse it was said
I AM THE ONE TRUE GOD
and then millions of people fell for it and wanted to be seen favorably
by the ONE TRUE GOD
unfortunatly not every one was talking about the same myth when pledging
aligence to the ONE TRUE GOD
and as a result there is no peace
George

Imagine no religion.

imagine nothing to kill or die for
G

In article ,
"Romeo Rondeau" wrote:


Call me a liberal, but I beleive that even you George are a son of
God.

and I believe I am as much a god as any, possible more so beacuse I
create my destiny
it is not waiting for me if I say the right words on the right days, or
send enough of my money off to gods adminstrative offices on earth

This shows that you don't know anything about salvation. :-)

LOL
LOL LOL
LOL
ROTFLMFAO
G

Or an exclamation point.


Exactly!
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

Jesus taught his followers to pray to "our Father", that was his
relationship with God that he was trying to pass on. If the Creator says "Call
me Dad", who are you Mark to call that sexist or chauvinistic or immature? You
are presuming to speak on God's behalf, when by all accounts "he" has exactly
the opposite opinion of the one you would claim. And in doing so isn't you
who is "anthropomorphizing God", as you lay your own sexist hangups on the
Creator who doesn't have that problem, and on Jesus who, judged by how he
treated women at the time many consider to have been actually a "feminist"?

You have just magnificently illustrated what I have described as the problem.
And I believe your holding up of images and attributes (idol worship) will keep
you from ever actually achieving a spiritual connection, a state of grace if
you will which is what I think everyone inwardly desires.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

So it is because Jesus prayed "our Father" that there is no world
peace? Now _that_ is infantile.

I said it was infantile to attribute humanlike attributes to God. And THIS is
one reason for the state of the world. Absolutely. Because as people
(Allah, Jesus etc.) the need to be defended and placated etc. I think the
bigger problem however is that millions of people ar raised in a religion where
the figurehead (God, whoever) is punitive and where they are taught that just
the fact of being born makes you a sinner. And then one grows up and hates
himself, hates life etc. and believe me it all gets projected onto the world.
It comes out as greed and irrational hatred and pollution etc.







(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

and I believe I am as much a god as any, possible more so beacuse I
create my destiny

As do I George. And I see in my destiny that you will send me as much money as
you've got.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

This shows that you don't know anything about salvation

Salvation from what?


(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

This shows that you don't know anything about salivation
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

This shows that you don't know anything about salvation. :-)

LOL
LOL LOL
LOL
ROTFLMFAO

These people are VERY SERIOUS. Probably all victims of child abuse or
something.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:46:26 -0800, Bob Cain
wrote:

Aren't you bothered by the argument's linear model?
IOW, can chaotic "reality" be modeled linearly?

Didn't know it was a linear model across the board. If so,
that does bother me. I rather doubt that god and his
buddies limited their simulator to linear methods. I know I
won't make that mistake.

God seems not to have, either. This reminds me of the ending
to Carl Sagan's novel "Contact" (which was inexplicably left
out of the hopeless, brain-dead movie) where the evidence of
design is hidden in the constant pi.

BTW, loved your choice of verbs in the last sentence. Arf.

Chris Hornbeck

"You have to have an idea of what you are going to do,
but it should be a vague idea." - Pablo Picasso, 1946

In article ,
(Mark Steven Brooks) wrote:

and I believe I am as much a god as any, possible more so beacuse I
create my destiny

As do I George. And I see in my destiny that you will send me as much money
as
you've got.
(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

you are very astute
yesterday the IRS froze all my accounts
until I can get the irs to see thier error(they lost my return for last
year, and yes my cpa has a certified reciept)I don't have a nickle.
I have a 8 am meeting and hope I can get the cash flowing again in time
to meet the checks for my business insurance and truck registration!!!
George

hmmm....time to get on your knees and start asking yourself for a miracle.

and I believe I am as much a god as any, possible more so beacuse I
create my destiny
yesterday the IRS froze all my accounts
until I can get the irs to see thier error(they lost my return for last
year, and yes my cpa has a certified reciept)I don't have a nickle.
I have a 8 am meeting and hope I can get the cash flowing again in time
to meet the checks for my business insurance and truck registration!!!
George

In article NmP5c.28066$KO3.74076@attbi_s02,
"Chris Stevens" wrote:

hmmm....time to get on your knees and start asking yourself for a miracle.


I have complete faith in myself
I shall manifest a miracle
George

Steven Sullivan
All accounts" were written by humans, presuming to speak on God's
behalf...men, for the most part.

Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's behalf, not the writers
of the Gospel.

Imagine no religion.

Well I can and have, but I can also tell you aren't nearly ready for that
yet.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

(Mark Steven Brooks)
I said it was infantile to attribute humanlike attributes to God. And THIS
is
one reason for the state of the world. Absolutely.

And I said as it is Jesus who taught us to pray "our Father", you are in
effect calling Jesus infantile, in the same way Hank implied Jesus was a sexist
"arrogant prick" for doing so . Then you go on to say as he was "attributing
humanlike attributes to God" by teaching us that God is our "Father", so it's
we do not live in a peaceful world! I guess
Mark that you just inherently beleive that you're better informed to teach
about God than Jesus is, but I'm thinking you may have to practice for just a
little while longer before you're really ready for that Brother. Maybe you can
try to make it up to the Dalai Lama's level while you're waiting.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Really touched a nerve with you didn't it Will?

BTW-Who knows what Jesus said, if he even existed.


(Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)

WillStG wrote:
Steven Sullivan
All accounts" were written by humans, presuming to speak on God's
behalf...men, for the most part.

Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's behalf, not the writers
of the Gospel.


Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that
he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot
of people believe a lot of crazy ****.


Imagine no religion.

Well I can and have, but I can also tell you aren't nearly ready for that
yet.


Imagine no religion...and as a result, not having stupid 'debates' like this.




--

-S.

"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director

WillStG wrote:

Steven Sullivan
All accounts" were written by humans, presuming to speak on God's
behalf...men, for the most part.

Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's behalf, not the writers
of the Gospel.

If you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Steven Sullivan

Willstg Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's behalf, not
the writers
of the Gospel.

Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that
he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot
of people believe a lot of crazy ****.

What, are you stoned? I said Jesus presumed to *speak* for God, where did
I say or "presume" he was anything other than a man? Your preconceptions are
imposing themselves onto my words.

Imagine no religion...and as a result, not having stupid 'debates' like
this.

Well if you actually had a relationship with God or just a basic respect
for the Great Teachers of the Ages, you wouldn't be talking **** like this
eithier.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:


Mark that you just inherently beleive that you're better informed to teach
about God than Jesus is, but I'm thinking you may have to practice for just a
little while longer before you're really ready for that Brother. Maybe you can
try to make it up to the Dalai Lama's level while you're waiting.

Show me the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus
taken from anywhere near the time that he is supposed to
have done his thing or when it was supposed to have been
done to him. The Romans kept very good records and Pilate
was under constant surveilance and reportage to Rome at the
time. Where's the meat?

This was all Paul's thing, man, and he was damn good at it.
I know exactly what struck him on the road, it was
inspiration. He had a mission of his own to accomplish and
saw a way to make it happen. Pure genius.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

(Mark Steven Brooks)
Really touched a nerve with you didn't it Will?

To say that calling God "Father" is sexist and arrogant as H. said, or
infantile and the actual reason there is no world peace as you have said, is to
offer that opinion regarding the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Now if you
want to own that, that you think you are a higher authority on the matter than
he and that his teachings are destructive compared to your own, just come out
and say it outright Mark.

But I think both you and Brother H. are so used to the Politically Correct
BS you have heard, that you just aren't aware what the implications are of
things you say and the positions you have been taking. So how fortunate for
you guys that I am here to help you out in that regard, eh? g


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Scott Dorsey wrote:

hank alrich wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

George wrote:

but you may be importuning a bit when you presume to speak on "His"
behalf and demand a change in the historical manner the Creator has been
addressed.

!!!!rotflmfao!!!!
show me one word"god" ever said that was not just man speaking on "its"
behalf

He said "fiat lux" I believe.

I thought Edison said that.

Possibly, but much later. It was in the public domain by then.

Yeah, and not speaking Aramaic, he was probably just paraphrasing
anyway.

--
ha

and I believe I am as much a god as any, possible more so beacuse I
create my destiny
it is not waiting for me if I say the right words on the right days, or
send enough of my money off to gods adminstrative offices on earth

This shows that you don't know anything about salvation. :-)

401K?

--
ha

WillStG wrote:

Jesus taught his followers to pray to "our Father", that was his
relationship with God that he was trying to pass on. If the Creator says
"Call me Dad", who are you Mark to call that sexist or chauvinistic or
immature? You are presuming to speak on God's behalf, when by all
accounts "he" has exactly the opposite opinion of the one you would claim.
And in doing so isn't you who is "anthropomorphizing God", as you lay your
own sexist hangups on the Creator who doesn't have that problem, and on
Jesus who, judged by how he treated women at the time many consider to
have been actually a "feminist"?

Elmer Gantry has nothin' on you when it comes to preachin'!

You're doing a great job of demonstrating the arrogance of those who
anthropomorphize a big entity. But for some this is not insulting, it's
amusing. It gets insulting when the Inquistions begin or the bombs begin
to drop.

--
ha

(hank alrich)
You're doing a great job of demonstrating the arrogance of those who
anthropomorphize a big entity. But for some this is not insulting, it's
amusing.

If that's not a problem for you Hank, then why not just come out and say
that you think you better than Jesus? Because in fact he's the guy you are
criticizing for "anthropomorphizing God", and you are making yourself out to
have a better idea of how to teach people about the subject than he.

Do the words "I, Hank Alrich know better about how God should be taught
than Jesus of Nazareth" get stuck in your throat for some reason? Or is it
that as you have admitted, you know it is an arrogant thing to imply with your
"sexist"?

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Bob Cain


Show me the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus
taken from anywhere near the time that he is supposed to
have done his thing or when it was supposed to have been
done to him. The Romans kept very good records and Pilate
was under constant surveilance and reportage to Rome at the
time. Where's the meat?


Nice try Bob. But my point is that to call everyone who refers to God as
Father arrogant and a sexist is blindly prejudiced and just plain stupid.
That is a pathetic basis to judge people on and you know better than that.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

premature send - i was editing the last line

(hank alrich)
You're doing a great job of demonstrating the arrogance of those who
anthropomorphize a big entity. But for some this is not insulting, it's
amusing.

If that's not a problem for you Hank, then why not just come out and say
that you think you better than Jesus? Because in fact he's the guy you are
criticizing for "anthropomorphizing God", and you are making yourself out to
have a better idea of how to teach people about the subject than he.

Do the words "I, Hank Alrich know better about how God should be taught
than Jesus of Nazareth" get stuck in your throat for some reason? Or is it
that as you have admitted, you know it is an arrogant thing to opine?

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .
and I believe I am as much a god as any, possible more so beacuse I
create my destiny
it is not waiting for me if I say the right words on the right days,
or
send enough of my money off to gods adminstrative offices on earth

This shows that you don't know anything about salvation. :-)

401K?

**** off Hank! And I mean that in the nicest possible way :-)

Romeo,
I've always wondered about this and never asked a "believer" but is it your
belief that God actually has a physical body and that it is male? If the answer
is yes then I guess there are all kinds of questions that arise, but the first
one to pop into my head would be; is he, then, alone? Is there no other being
like him? I guess there couldn't be or they would be a god as well. I'm not
impuning your beliefs, hoestly, just trying to get clear on what they are. It
seems hard for me to believe that anyone could conceive of a humanoid, physical
God but I cant really infer anything else from the concept of God being male.
Can you explain?

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

"Garthrr" wrote in message
...
Romeo,
I've always wondered about this and never asked a "believer" but is it
your
belief that God actually has a physical body and that it is male? If the
answer
is yes then I guess there are all kinds of questions that arise, but the
first
one to pop into my head would be; is he, then, alone? Is there no other
being
like him? I guess there couldn't be or they would be a god as well. I'm
not
impuning your beliefs, hoestly, just trying to get clear on what they are.
It
seems hard for me to believe that anyone could conceive of a humanoid,
physical
God but I cant really infer anything else from the concept of God being
male.
Can you explain?

Actually, I'm really not an expert on the subject, as a matter of fact I
don't even attend church. From what I understand, God would have no gender
per se. I'm assuming that because of the power of God, ancient man referred
to God as masculine because women did not exhibit those kinds of traits or
at least were not percieved to exhibit those kinds of traits. Keep in mind
that the bible is really the only thing we have to go by (there are a few
things other than that) and even though the bible is supposed to be THE
documentation of Christianity and some of Judaism, it's still a document
contaminated by humans and their inherent bias and ignorance.

I am conservative by nature, but I am by no means a fundamentalist. Like I
said I don't attend church, I am fascinated by Christianity and theology as
a whole, but I don't buy into everything hook line and sinker. There are
some situations in the bible (specifically about Christ himself) that were
borrowed from pagan folklore and customs, and it is a fact. Fundamentalists
would never consider that part of the bible was anything but genuine.

The bible (I know I will get flamed for this!) wasn't just a religious
document, it was like a manual for living and it is most definitely tainted
and influenced by the customs and beliefs of the day. One of which would be
that powerful beings are men.

I talked at great length during a long road trip with a man that had his own
issues with Christianity (for various reasons, one of which is that he was
gay, there was no gay churches at the time), he was one of the smartest men
I've ever known ,and he talked about God as a genderless being with no body
who was totally alone. And being so lonely, he said that God created man
because he had nobody to give his love or wisdom to. I liked that idea of
God (it was the first sensible description I had of God at that time) and
I've since had that image of him. I've always referred to God as masculine,
because everybody else did.

"Garthrr" wrote in message


I've always wondered about this and never asked a "believer" but is
it your belief that God actually has a physical body and that it is
male?

That would be Jesus about 2000 years ago?

If the answer is yes then I guess there are all kinds of
questions that arise, but the first one to pop into my head would be;
is he, then, alone?

No, there is a Trinity which is ultimately one entity. The God part of the
Trinity is a transcendent being, by definition indescribable. The Jesus part
seems to have (not entirely sure except for one moderately well-documented
example) taken a number of forms in history, one of which was a male with a
physical body. The Spirit part of the Trinity is well a spirit, totally
physically insubstantial yet perceptible.

Is there no other being like him?

By definition.

I guess there couldn't be or they would be a god as well.

There may at one time have been beings on the Earth with properties that led
to the various stories by the Greeks, Norse, Asian Indians, etc. Best guess:
they were angels doing things they shouldn't have been doing.

I'm not impugning your
beliefs, honestly, just trying to get clear on what they are. It seems
hard for me to believe that anyone could conceive of a humanoid,
physical God

Right insofar as God is concerned.

but I cant really infer anything else from the concept
of God being male.

God is so indescribable that ascribing male attributes to him is as best, a
literary device.

Can you explain?

I gave it a try!

"I, George Gleason know better about how God should be taught
than "Will "miho the resident kook on rec.audio.pro

"WillStG" wrote in message

Steven Sullivan

Willstg Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's
behalf, not the writers of the Gospel.

Even if Jesus wrote the gospels -- which he didn't -- this presumes that
he isn't a man. I know a lot of people believe he was god, but a lot
of people believe a lot of crazy ****.

What, are you stoned? I said Jesus presumed to *speak* for God,
where did I say or "presume" he was anything other than a man? Your
preconceptions are imposing themselves onto my words.

Imagine no religion...and as a result, not having stupid 'debates'
like this.

"No religion" is in general, an unstable state, something like a vacuum on
the earth's surface. There's always something that wants to rush into it and
fill it.

One the ironies of life is the fact that Secular Humanism, at least in its
first two incarnations last century, clearly thought itself to be a
religion. I don't know of many modern secularists who would admit that they
were religious.

Well if you actually had a relationship with God or just a basic
respect for the Great Teachers of the Ages, you wouldn't be talking
**** like this either.

Agreed. What a lot of so-called atheists seem to do is to make up some crazy
religion, call it Christianity, and then tell everybody they think it is
stupid.

I'm prone to agree with the idea that their made-up religion is stupid. ;-)

"Bob Cain" wrote in message

WillStG wrote:

Steven Sullivan
All accounts" were written by humans, presuming to speak on God's
behalf...men, for the most part.

Steven, it was Jesus who claimed to speak on God's behalf, not
the writers of the Gospel.

If you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you.

One of the richest guys in Detroit started out by buying a bridge. To
Canada. We call it "The Ambassador Bridge".

;-)