[Scott Dorsey]

Tim Perry wrote:

Sorry Scott, you are speaking as if all big bands are alike.

After this weekend, my new rule for this band will be one mic per instrument
+ drums.

Area micing simply did not work. It should have but didn't. The brass simply
doesn't drop down far enough for soloists to take precedence. I know it
should be my problem but it is. Just like the trumpet player who says he
cant hear himself.
I am suggesting passive personal monitors. (reflectors)

Reflectors are a really good idea. And so is a decent hall also... if
the hall has problems, the performers can't balance themselves, and the
whole thing goes wrong.

Trying to fix this stuff with spotmiking is closing the barn after the
cows have left, though. It hides some stuff but it doesn't fix the real
problem. I can see doing it in a pinch but it's certainly not a first choice.

Even if the audience balances are good... if performers can't hear themselves
and the folks around them, they can't play as well as they should.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

About 20 years ago I attended a Miles Davis concert at the SCES. Though we
were in an extremely large hall, the sound levels were so high I was nearly
deafened. I almost wrote a note to Mr. Davis to suggest that such a high
volume was an insult both to the listeners and to his music, but did not.

[Phildo]

"muzician21" wrote in message
...
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are
failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it,
especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like
things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA.

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like.

I remember doing Guilfest a few years ago when Chrissie Hinde from the
Pretenders went into her portacabin backstage to take a nap. She must have
used toilet paper to stuff her ears because when she came out a couple of
hours later she forgot to take it out and spent several minutes wandering
round backstage with toilet paper pigtails before someone told her.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
...
98% of the time it is too loud because the band, facility or promoter
wants it too loud
as a sound system provider I have no desire to make it over the minimum
acceptable volume, but am often forced to mix against my btter judgment,
after all the paycheck is more important than my opinion, I am there to
serve the client and give them what THEY ask for , I tell the audience who
complaign to speak to the man in charge, and that is RARELY the sound guy

The gig I did on Saturday was too loud simply because of a combination of
the room and the band. Lowest common denominator was the drummer and the
vocals/sax had to be high enough to get over him. Even with him playing
quietly (all the band are pros without any of the ego issues you get with a
lot off musicians) it still had to be fairly loud due to the acoustics of
the room making everything seem louder. I was running the bare minimum to
get a good mix and we were still getting complaints from the hotel although
it had to be said they were much more used to things like string quartets in
that room and were more than a little fussy.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Note also that a _lot_ of people in the 18-30 age group already have mild
deafness to begin with. If your audience is deaf....

It saddens me the amount of people I see out in the street wearing the apple
hearing deterioration device (Ipod) or the Chinese variations on said
device. Not only do they damage their hearing but it also locks people away
in their own little worlds removing any sort of social interaction.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"geoff" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:
I do quite a few gigs with young bands, and the main culprits there
are drummers who lay into the kit like they are trying to break it.
If the drums are loud, the guitars and bass tend to play loud with the
resultant over spill into the vocal mikes, then they want the wedges
loud... you know the rest.

One of the young bands that use my rehearsal faciltity seem to break 3 or
4 sticks every session ! They don't seem to understand that sothing is not
quite right there.

That can be attributed to the current fashion of playing rimshots for the
back-beat.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"cjt" wrote in message
...
I work with a lot of deaf people, and often even they can tell things are
too loud -- they FEEL the volume.

Feeling the sound can be good. Using a rig with proper subs can give the
impression things are loud and powerful but when the audience leaves their
ears aren't ringing. I use a subharmonic synth a lot on kick/toms and it can
give the impression of being really loud without causing hearing damage.

Phildo

[Phildo]

"Tim Perry" wrote in message
...
A couple of months back at the same venue a local band (Los Blancos) was
playing though a McCauley line array. My seats were six rows back from the
mains and the levels were perfect. Then the headline act (Los Lobos) came
on with their own BE who made it louder. I went up to the balcony which
was filled by the house EAW center cluster. The sound was OK but I got
bored with the Genre.

It's a pity Louis Stetzel is no longer with us (he was Los Lobos engineer
for years before his death). He was always sensible with volume levels.

Phildo

[David Gravereaux]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Phildo wrote:
"cjt" wrote in message
...
I work with a lot of deaf people, and often even they can tell things are
too loud -- they FEEL the volume.

Feeling the sound can be good. Using a rig with proper subs can give the
impression things are loud and powerful but when the audience leaves their
ears aren't ringing. I use a subharmonic synth a lot on kick/toms and it can
give the impression of being really loud without causing hearing damage.


Well said. I use that trick as often as I can and works best outdoors
when you don't have to fight room echo. Last big gig I did, the target
was for 107 dBSPL(C) average in the dance area 20 feet off from the
stage with allowable peaks to 119. Clipping was never allowed, nor
over-compressing by the loudspeaker processor, thus distortion was low
(the stuff that is painful). The subs were capable of 137 dB
max/40Hz/1M in half space. I ran them off amps capable of 3600W, but
wasn't allowing it to pass 1800W for thermal protection. They had good
output down to 34Hz. The DBX120A subharmonic synth was set to max,
brickwall highpass was set to 34Hz for excursion protection.

For dancing, it's *all* about the bass. A few people did want it
louder, but I think only because it wasn't hurting them due to the
alcohol effect on one's hearing. No one had ringing ears the next day.
Not even the crazies that were standing right in front at the mouth of
the subs. All alcoholed-up, I'm sure those close people loved the belly
feel from the kick and bass.

I say Give them bass, not shrill.

- --
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[cjt]

Mike Rivers wrote:
cjt wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:


If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.


Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not
optimistic.


Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and
complaining that it was too loud?


The closest I ever came was an offer of a seat in the back, where it
would take 30 seconds, rather than 15, to cause permanent hearing loss.

[Mike Rivers]

cjt wrote:

The closest I ever came was an offer of a seat in the back, where it
would take 30 seconds, rather than 15, to cause permanent hearing loss.

When someone comes up to me at the console and says it's too loud, I always
ask where they're sitting, and it's almost in a front row near a
speaker. I ask if
it's too loud where they're standing right now (at the console) and they
usually
say it's not. So I shrug and point to the nearest empty seat.

I'll tell you though, most of the live sound work that I do is for
traditional folk
festivals. These people play great music, but they're not well rehearsed
performers.
They're farmers and truck drivers and cooks and web site designers and
they play
for local dances in places that I only went into when I was much
younger. They
play loud and the dancers like it. Some have very good sounding and well
balanced recordings that I can listen to in my living room at a
civilized level and
enjoy.

But put them on stage in front of an audience of 500-5000 and the drums are
so incredibly loud that everything else has to be, too. It's a good
thing we usually
have a lot of headroom in our PA gear (and know how to use it).


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Dave]

On Jul 21, 11:22*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
About 20 years ago I attended a Miles Davis concert at the SCES. Though we
were in an extremely large hall, the sound levels were so high I was nearly
deafened. I almost wrote a note to Mr. Davis to suggest that such a high
volume was an insult both to the listeners and to his music, but did not.

MD? Music like that should NOT be heard at extreme high levels....
You could have left a note. Were you silenced by the loudness?
"deafening silence"

I still say alcohol plays a big role in quite a few of these
events.... (for those that serve or allow BYOA).
It increases your tolerances to pain, and decreases your ability to
think straight. ...

In the movie This is Spinal Tap. "It's one louder." Nigel is showing
Marty his Marshall guitar amplifiers, one whose control knobs all have
the highest setting of eleven, he responds, "These go to eleven"....

[Rupert]

On Jul 21, 4:52*pm, Dave wrote:
On Jul 21, 11:22*am, "William Sommerwerck"

wrote:
About 20 years ago I attended a Miles Davis concert at the SCES. Though we
were in an extremely large hall, the sound levels were so high I was nearly
deafened. I almost wrote a note to Mr. Davis to suggest that such a high
volume was an insult both to the listeners and to his music, but did not.

[Eeyore[_3_]]

muzician21 wrote:

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

Incompetent or deaf sound engineers normally. Then again I don't know what
your definition of loud is. You might also be surprised how well the ear
tolerates moderately loud music. Hearing damage figures are based on
industrial noise which has a VERY different character. I could get
technical here if you want.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious
adjustment to my email address

[Paul P[_3_]]

Phildo wrote:

It saddens me the amount of people I see out in the street wearing the apple
hearing deterioration device (Ipod) or the Chinese variations on said
device. Not only do they damage their hearing but it also locks people away
in their own little worlds removing any sort of social interaction.

And it's also downright dangerous. I tried it and I can't walk down
street without being able to hear what's going on around me. It's
frightening. A few years ago a teenage girl in a nearby town was
killed when she was hit by a train at a crossing, apparently because
of her Walkman.

Paul P

[thepaulthomas]

On Jul 21, 11:13*am, "Phildo" wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message

...
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are
failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it,
especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like
things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA.
Phildo

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! !

As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I
have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh...

But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and
club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the
blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that
type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a
great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all
uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix
position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such
levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful
even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever
mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB, give
or take a few dB in either direction.

[Ron[_11_]]

thepaulthomas wrote:
On Jul 21, 11:13 am, "Phildo" wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message

...
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are
failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it,
especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like
things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA.
Phildo

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! !

As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I
have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh...

But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and
club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the
blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that
type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a
great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all
uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix
position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such
levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful
even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever
mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB,


give or take a few dB in either direction.

Well a 'few db' can make a very big difference to the overall perceived
volume level!

Ron

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

cjt wrote:

The closest I ever came was an offer of a seat in the back, where it
would take 30 seconds, rather than 15, to cause permanent hearing loss.

When someone comes up to me at the console and says it's too loud, I always
ask where they're sitting, and it's almost in a front row near a
speaker. I ask if
it's too loud where they're standing right now (at the console) and they
usually
say it's not. So I shrug and point to the nearest empty seat.

You've reminded me of an incident which happened many years ago when i
was doing the P.A. for a dog show. In addition to the main coverage, we
had a short pole set up with a pair of Vitavox horns on their full power
setting, pointing down a field away from the main arena; this was to
cover the village hall, which was some distance away. The pole was
fenced off, but one of the punters removed the fencing and parked her
camper van squarely across the horns, blocking them completely.

She had just opened all the windows to give her dogs some air when we
made the next announcement.....


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Dave]

On Jul 21, 8:34*pm, Rupert wrote:
highest setting of eleven, he responds, "These go to eleven"....

"Why not have it still go to 10 but have 10 be louder?"

Rupert

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the
board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see,
most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all
the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your
guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra
push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the
top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

[William Sommerwerck]

I'm waiting for one with the infinity symbol as the highest.

Then someone will want an amp that goes beyond infinity.

I assume most readers understand the errors in Buzz's catchphrase.

[William Sommerwerck]

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the
board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see,
most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all
the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your
guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra
push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the
top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.


This is a marvelous piece of technical satire. It isn't only Nigel who's
ignorant. Most people don't understand what an amplifier actually does, or
what happens when you turn the gain control.

[theclyde]

On Jul 21, 9:00*pm, Paul P wrote:
Phildo wrote:
It saddens me the amount of people I see out in the street wearing the apple
hearing deterioration device (Ipod) or the Chinese variations on said
device. Not only do they damage their hearing but it also locks people away
in their own little worlds removing any sort of social interaction.

And it's also downright dangerous. *I tried it and I can't walk down
street without being able to hear what's going on around me. *It's
frightening. *A few years ago a teenage girl in a nearby town was
killed when she was hit by a train at a crossing, apparently because
of her Walkman.

For what it is worth, most media players have a graduated volume
switch. There are plenty of volumes settings between off and full. In
fact, you can usually set the volume down low enough that you can hear
conversations from across the bus. Important thing is to remember the
phones are supplying music to hear, not music to drown out the rest of
the world.
However, when I have the active noise cancelling headphones on -
nothing gets to my ears, even if the music is not playing.

[Phildo]

"theclyde" wrote in message
...
For what it is worth, most media players have a graduated volume
switch. There are plenty of volumes settings between off and full. In
fact, you can usually set the volume down low enough that you can hear
conversations from across the bus.

All very well but 99% of users don't set it to anything less than is needed
to drown out the rest of the world.

Phildo

[William Sommerwerck]

All very well but 99% of users don't set it to anything
less than is needed to drown out the rest of the world.

It's surprising how much can be needed.

I can be listening to orchestral music on my home system, at a moderately
loud (but not "full symphonic') level, and a passing truck 100' away will
nearly drown it out.

Simply walking down the street, listening to some Lieder, can require
cranking the gain all the way up.

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
I'm waiting for one with the infinity symbol as the highest.

Then someone will want an amp that goes beyond infinity.

I assume most readers understand the errors in Buzz's catchphrase.

Yes. Most consoles measure attenuation and not gain, so the infinity
sign is that the bottom.

An amplifier with infinite gain isn't very useful without negative feedback.
At least not as an amplifier... it might be useful as a comparator.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill]

Dave wrote:
On Jul 21, 8:34 pm, Rupert wrote:
highest setting of eleven, he responds, "These go to eleven"....
"Why not have it still go to 10 but have 10 be louder?"

Rupert

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the
board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see,
most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all
the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your
guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra
push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the
top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

It's been upgraded:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuZePiQHLI

--
Les Cargill

[thepaulthomas]

On Jul 22, 1:36*am, Ron wrote:
thepaulthomas wrote:
On Jul 21, 11:13 am, "Phildo" wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message

....
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are
failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it,
especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like
things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA.
Phildo

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! !

As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I
have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh...

But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and
club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the
blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that
type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a
great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all
uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix
position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such
levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful
even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever
mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB,
give or take a few dB in either direction.

Well a 'few db' can make a very big difference to the overall perceived
volume level!

Ron

That is certainly true, Ron. My point is simply that even when
considering that change of a "few dB" the best sounding rock concerts
I have ever mixed in any size venue have not gone over 100 dB. That
includes concerts using enormous sound systems for covering tens of
thousands of people. And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for
under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

thepaulthomas wrote:

[on variation across the room]

That is certainly true, Ron. My point is simply that even when
considering that change of a "few dB" the best sounding rock concerts
I have ever mixed in any size venue have not gone over 100 dB. That
includes concerts using enormous sound systems for covering tens of
thousands of people. And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for
under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

Again, I have said this a few times befo way long time ago I had the
liberty of running around in a tent at the Roskide Festiva with a handheld
Ivie set to C-weighted. Based on those measurements it is my opinion that
good housesound needs to be 10 dB louder than the stage SPL.

I don't know whether you would get that measurable difference in a room, but
I think it stands well as a principle in case the intention is that it shall
be the pa that defines the balance. In real life that generally translates
to: the guitar player defines the overall loudness. Which btw. has been the
reply I have gotten when complaining to the sound board operator .....

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Scott Dorsey]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Again, I have said this a few times befo way long time ago I had the
liberty of running around in a tent at the Roskide Festiva with a handheld
Ivie set to C-weighted. Based on those measurements it is my opinion that
good housesound needs to be 10 dB louder than the stage SPL.

For rock bands with a backline, I would believe that.

That's why the whole deal with getting good sound quality at rock concerts
is to get the backline levels under control.

I don't know whether you would get that measurable difference in a room, but
I think it stands well as a principle in case the intention is that it shall
be the pa that defines the balance. In real life that generally translates
to: the guitar player defines the overall loudness. Which btw. has been the
reply I have gotten when complaining to the sound board operator .....

Hmm... I would say that it's the drummer who defines the balance....
everything else is bringing the levels up to match with the drums.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[dwgriffi]

On Jul 21, 7:52*pm, Dave wrote:
On Jul 21, 11:22*am, "William Sommerwerck"

wrote:
About 20 years ago I attended a Miles Davis concert at the SCES. Though we
were in an extremely large hall, the sound levels were so high I was nearly
deafened. I almost wrote a note to Mr. Davis to suggest that such a high
volume was an insult both to the listeners and to his music, but did not.

[dwgriffi]

On Jul 22, 2:34*pm, dwgriffi wrote:
On Jul 21, 7:52*pm, Dave wrote:

On Jul 21, 11:22*am, "William Sommerwerck"

wrote:
About 20 years ago I attended a Miles Davis concert at the SCES. Though we
were in an extremely large hall, the sound levels were so high I was nearly
deafened. I almost wrote a note to Mr. Davis to suggest that such a high
volume was an insult both to the listeners and to his music, but did not.

MD? Music like that should NOT be heard at extreme high levels....
You could have left a note. Were you silenced by the loudness?
"deafening silence"

WS, you're speaking of old MD, the recordings I love but never saw
live. *Any later version of MD that I saw, with interminable aimless
funk noodling over no chord changes, was stupid loud and sounded like
hell to boot. *It had to be so loud to keep you awake against your
will. *The players were always top notch, but it was a loud,
pretentious mess of volume.

It always felt like it was not the sound guy's nor the sidemen's
fault. *I placed it squarely on MD and/or his management.

Whoops, sorry William, I messed up the attributed and didn't recognize
your grizzle email : ) I never think to check about where else this
is being cross posted from. Sorry! : )

I'm in agreement with you on the MD show.

[William Sommerwerck]

WS, you're speaking of old MD, the recordings I love but never saw
live. Any later version of MD that I saw, with interminable aimless
funk noodling over no chord changes, was stupid loud and sounded
like hell to boot. It had to be so loud to keep you awake against your
will. The players were always top notch, but it was a loud,
pretentious mess of volume.

I liked his performance. It was like hearing late Beethoven string quartets
or watching Fred Astaire dance -- simple music making, devoid of needless
"gesture".


It always felt like it was not the sound guy's nor the sidemen's
fault. I placed it squarely on MD and/or his management.

Ultimately the performer is responsible.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Hmm... I would say that it's the drummer who defines the balance....
everything else is bringing the levels up to match with the drums.

Depends on the size of the venue I reckon.

In many jazz contexts it would help greatly if more drummers used practice
kits rather than full kits, I have heard and recorded - with a pair - such
an ensemble, Peter Nissens New Orleans Jazz band or whatever they would call
themselves. Unfortunately the content of their van got stolen after a
concert and the very nice practice kit was lost and he didn't get another
one, there is quiote probably not that much money in that niche or he didn't
want the risk.

--scott

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Phildo]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
All very well but 99% of users don't set it to anything
less than is needed to drown out the rest of the world.

Simply walking down the street, listening to some Lieder, can require
cranking the gain all the way up.

Why not just shove screwdrivers into your ears if you want to damage your
hearing?

I will not use in-ear headphones under any circumstances (except proper IEMs
of course).

Phildo

[FatBoySlimFast]

This is a marvelous piece of technical satire. It isn't only Nigel who's
ignorant. Most people don't understand what an amplifier actually does, or
what happens when you turn the gain control.

Yes - at our last gig there was another guy there using the same powered
subs as us. He asked before the gig where I usually set the gain control on
the sub. The answer was 12 o'clock.

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says "I've got
my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is still flashing all
the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...

Cheers,
Steve W

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"FatBoySlimFast" wrote in message
...
This is a marvelous piece of technical satire. It isn't only Nigel who's
ignorant. Most people don't understand what an amplifier actually does,
or
what happens when you turn the gain control.

Yes - at our last gig there was another guy there using the same powered
subs as us. He asked before the gig where I usually set the gain control
on the sub. The answer was 12 o'clock.

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says "I've
got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is still
flashing all the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...

Cheers,
Steve W

from what have read here he is either a washed out british designer ,
austrailian bench jockey or lost in the wilds of the nether regions of
michigan
george

[David Gravereaux]

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FatBoySlimFast wrote:

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...

Guitar tech?

- --

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[Mike Rivers]

FatBoySlimFast wrote:

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says "I've
got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is still
flashing all the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...

Why, live sound engineer, of course.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[cjt]

Mike Rivers wrote:

FatBoySlimFast wrote:

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says
"I've got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is
still flashing all the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...


Why, live sound engineer, of course.

You need to put "engineer" in quotes if you're going to abuse it like that.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Phildo wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...

All very well but 99% of users don't set it to anything
less than is needed to drown out the rest of the world.

Simply walking down the street, listening to some Lieder, can
require
cranking the gain all the way up.

Why not just shove screwdrivers into your ears if you want to damage
your hearing?

I think you overlooked his preferred material, the pop song someone wants to
add drums and choir to is at AVG 15, lieder are at AVG 27 or lower, ie. have
their average level 12 dB lower than a pop song. Consequently they tend to
require 12 dB more headroom. I had the same experience with building an
respectable, but dicreet, sound system into a previous Skoda, 30 real watts
rms pr. loudspeaker, one each front door and a pair in the rear shelf, with
the shelf being replaced with 11 mm plywood with a 1 cm thick carpet glued
to it. I had attenuated the poweramps so that they would clip slightly later
than the original radio - fed them via its loudspeaker outputs and an
attenuator and yes, you could play lieder on it, and violin, and you ended
up running it flat out to be able to hear the soft parts. I think William is
in a similar situation. Could have been fun driving the car to a play off
...... it looked as if there was a pair of extra loudspeakers on the ex works
toy radio and it was able to sound and feel like a rock concert, including
requiring ear protection.

I will not use in-ear headphones under any circumstances (except
proper IEMs of course).

Peaks can be bad for ya ... some of the time sensible conpression is not all
that bad. Personally I only use earphones when I darn have to and only for
the time I darn need to.

Phildo

Kind regards

Peter Larsen