[muzician21]

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

[Geoff]

muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like.

Don't do that ! I had to go to the A+E to have a rolled up bus ticket
removed once !

geoff

[cjt]

Tim Perry wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message
...

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?


So I was in a bar Sat night doing sound for modern rockers. the first band
goes up after a line check.I set levels for my normal rock/country gigs and
after the first song the lead vox comes back and tells me to make it 40%
louder. I spent all night with earplugs in and 110 dB at mix. (about 30 ft
from mains

Today I do big band at a festival outdoors and after the first song they
want it down. I spend all after noon with 85 db at mix. (about 60 ft from
mains)

Friday was a Grateful Dead cover band at a bar and you could converse 20
feet from the mains. (it was a small area outdoors on a deck.)

So there is your answer. You are simply frequenting the wrong places.


How true. Be sure to tell them WHY you're walking out (although I doubt
any will change their habits).

[Paul P[_3_]]

Tim Perry wrote:

So there is your answer. You are simply frequenting the wrong places.

There's a concert hall nearby that was built just a couple of years
ago so it's ultra modern. 900 seats, 1 large balcony. The community
music school gets to use it for their end of year pop concert. When
I took my daughter to the dress rehearsal last year the band's volume
was so loud I went up to the sound guys and asked them if it was going
to be that loud for the show in the evening. He looked at me kind of
weird and replied that it was probably going to be louder.

I don't get it. The music would be so much better if it were at a
level that one's ears didn't have to shut down to protect themselves.
At the show in question I watched all the older people get up and
leave, grand parents that had come with family to see the youngsters
perform. I wore earplugs and my ears survived but it wasn't exactly
enjoyable.

Every show I've been to at this hall whether it be a choir, a dance
school end of year performance, or a pop concert they're all far too
loud. My personal theory is that the sound guys are all deaf and
can't understand that everyone is suffering.

Paul P

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Paul P wrote:

Every show I've been to at this hall whether it be a choir, a dance
school end of year performance, or a pop concert they're all far too
loud. My personal theory is that the sound guys are all deaf and
can't understand that everyone is suffering.

Read what Tim wrote, and this time: read it. There _are_ exceptions and some
of those are idiotic as the one you describe, but generally it is the
musical act that sets the sound level by being too loud on stage.

Paul P

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Paul P[_3_]]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Read what Tim wrote, and this time: read it. There _are_ exceptions and some
of those are idiotic as the one you describe, but generally it is the
musical act that sets the sound level by being too loud on stage.

In the hall I'm talking about everything is played through this
massive speaker system made up of large horn arrays on either side
of the stage near the ceiling and bass speakers hidden somewhere
I think under the front of the stage. Things are either mic'ed
or played directly into the system. There are two large boards,
one on the side of the stage for the monitors and one out in the
middle of the house.

So there is no real connection between the sound level on stage
and the sound level out in the hall. It's the guys at FOH that're
playing things too loud. My daughter said things were bearable
on stage.

To my mind the act shouldn't be dictating the sound level for the
audience. They can have their monitors at whatever level they
want and the sound people at FOH should make things good for the
audience.

Paul P

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

muzician21 wrote:

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Paul P" wrote in message
...
Peter Larsen wrote:

Read what Tim wrote, and this time: read it. There _are_ exceptions and
some of those are idiotic as the one you describe, but generally it is
the musical act that sets the sound level by being too loud on stage.

In the hall I'm talking about everything is played through this
massive speaker system made up of large horn arrays on either side
of the stage near the ceiling and bass speakers hidden somewhere
I think under the front of the stage. Things are either mic'ed
or played directly into the system. There are two large boards,
one on the side of the stage for the monitors and one out in the
middle of the house.

So there is no real connection between the sound level on stage
and the sound level out in the hall. It's the guys at FOH that're
playing things too loud. My daughter said things were bearable
on stage.

To my mind the act shouldn't be dictating the sound level for the
audience. They can have their monitors at whatever level they
want and the sound people at FOH should make things good for the
audience.

Paul P

I am doimg a Sinatra touring band next week in a 40 foot tent for senior
citiezens, 16 hourns full drum kit two vocalists on wireless, they have
speced 24 mics for this, the audience will be less than 8 feet from 5
trumpets and 5 trombones
there is no way in hell it will not be too loud, hell it is going to be too
loud without a sound sysytem
it is frustrating as a provider to have my hand tied as to what to do by
some musical direcdtor who thinks every gig is the Imperial Ballroom of a
giant casino

98% of the time it is too loud because the band, facility or promoter wants
it too loud
as a sound system provider I have no desire to make it over the minimum
acceptable volume, but am often forced to mix against my btter judgment,
after all the paycheck is more important than my opinion, I am there to
serve the client and give them what THEY ask for , I tell the audience who
complaign to speak to the man in charge, and that is RARELY the sound guy
george

[hank alrich]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

muzician21 wrote:

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.

Hear, hear!!

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[muzician21]

On Jul 19, 10:39*pm, "Tim Perry"
wrote:

So there is your answer. You are simply frequenting the wrong places.


Well, I only go to these kinds of places on occasion but virtually
always have the same experience no matter what the music. In this case
the majority of the instruments were acoustic - guitars and mandolin -
i.e. this wasn't some bunch of headbangers. There was an electric bass
and keyboard pretty consistently. During some of the sets there was an
electric guit and a guy on harmonica blowing into a mic. The music was
all either folk-style, country or blues. Every bit of it ear
splittingly loud when it didn't need to be. This "crank it up"
mentality just seems to be pervasive. The guitar players might have
obsessed for hours over which guitar to buy for the sound but the
sound quality becomes a moot point in this kind of situation.

With earplugs in, you can't even really enjoy the music because you
can't really hear the instruments. You mostly hear and feel a lot of
massive bass. The only way to begin to really hear the music was to
get outside the door to the bar where the barrier of the wall acted as
an attenuator and eq de-brightener to some extent.

[muzician21]

On Jul 20, 5:11*am, (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote:

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. *If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.


In this case it just wouldn't have been practical, it was a fundraiser
for a local radio friend of the musicians who has cancer.

[Scott Dorsey]

Tim Perry wrote:

So there is your answer. You are simply frequenting the wrong places.

Sadly, most places these days are the wrong places. Too many places have
bands that demand the sound be too loud. Too many places have _patrons_
that demand the sound be too loud.

It's not just electric music either... the same problem exists at
acoustic folk music events.

Sometimes you can blame the PA operators... but they're usually not the
main problem.

I carry the Etymotic earplugs wherever I go.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Peter Larsen wrote:
Paul P wrote:

Every show I've been to at this hall whether it be a choir, a dance
school end of year performance, or a pop concert they're all far too
loud. My personal theory is that the sound guys are all deaf and
can't understand that everyone is suffering.

Read what Tim wrote, and this time: read it. There _are_ exceptions and some
of those are idiotic as the one you describe, but generally it is the
musical act that sets the sound level by being too loud on stage.

Note also that a _lot_ of people in the 18-30 age group already have mild
deafness to begin with. If your audience is deaf....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:

I am doimg a Sinatra touring band next week in a 40 foot tent for senior
citiezens, 16 hourns full drum kit two vocalists on wireless, they have
speced 24 mics for this, the audience will be less than 8 feet from 5
trumpets and 5 trombones
there is no way in hell it will not be too loud, hell it is going to be too
loud without a sound sysytem
it is frustrating as a provider to have my hand tied as to what to do by
some musical direcdtor who thinks every gig is the Imperial Ballroom of a
giant casino

Just because you have 24 mikes up on stage doesn't mean ANY of them have to
be actually turned on.

I really hate the current (well, post-1970) fashion of spotmiking the crap
out of big bands. They aren't supposed to sound like that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ron[_11_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote:
Paul P wrote:

Every show I've been to at this hall whether it be a choir, a dance
school end of year performance, or a pop concert they're all far too
loud. My personal theory is that the sound guys are all deaf and
can't understand that everyone is suffering.
Read what Tim wrote, and this time: read it. There _are_ exceptions and some
of those are idiotic as the one you describe, but generally it is the
musical act that sets the sound level by being too loud on stage.

Note also that a _lot_ of people in the 18-30 age group already have mild
deafness to begin with. If your audience is deaf....
--scott

I do quite a few gigs with young bands, and the main culprits there are
drummers who lay into the kit like they are trying to break it. If the
drums are loud, the guitars and bass tend to play loud with the
resultant over spill into the vocal mikes, then they want the wedges
loud... you know the rest.

No amount of education seems to work with some kids - they already know
it all, having been in the business for months some of them.

Ron

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:

I am doimg a Sinatra touring band next week in a 40 foot tent for senior
citiezens, 16 hourns full drum kit two vocalists on wireless, they have
speced 24 mics for this, the audience will be less than 8 feet from 5
trumpets and 5 trombones
there is no way in hell it will not be too loud, hell it is going to be
too
loud without a sound sysytem
it is frustrating as a provider to have my hand tied as to what to do by
some musical direcdtor who thinks every gig is the Imperial Ballroom of a
giant casino

Just because you have 24 mikes up on stage doesn't mean ANY of them have
to
be actually turned on.

I really hate the current (well, post-1970) fashion of spotmiking the crap
out of big bands. They aren't supposed to sound like that.


Band has a tour engineer, and he has already told me that they will absoutly
need every mic on the rider
The mix will be out of my hand, but my reputation will take the hit
it just sucks
George

[Geoff]

Ron wrote:
I do quite a few gigs with young bands, and the main culprits there
are drummers who lay into the kit like they are trying to break it.
If the drums are loud, the guitars and bass tend to play loud with the
resultant over spill into the vocal mikes, then they want the wedges
loud... you know the rest.

One of the young bands that use my rehearsal faciltity seem to break 3 or 4
sticks every session ! They don't seem to understand that sothing is not
quite right there.

Tyem - "But we need to be loud to sound right !". Me - "That's only because
it's so loud you can't hear the mistakes"

geoff

[Geoff]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Tim Perry wrote:

So there is your answer. You are simply frequenting the wrong places.

Sadly, most places these days are the wrong places. Too many places
have bands that demand the sound be too loud. Too many places have
_patrons_ that demand the sound be too loud.

I heard people (patrons) saying how pleased they were with the concert
BECAUSE their ears are ringing !!??!


geoff

[Richard Crowley]

"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote ...
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:

I am doimg a Sinatra touring band next week in a 40 foot tent for senior
citiezens,

In which case loud may be better! :-)

The mix will be out of my hand, but my reputation will take the hit
it just sucks

Cover over all your logos, and dress (and act) like just another
roadie/flunkie. Transfer the responsibility back to the tour engr. :-)

[Scott Dorsey]

George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Just because you have 24 mikes up on stage doesn't mean ANY of them have
to
be actually turned on.

I really hate the current (well, post-1970) fashion of spotmiking the crap
out of big bands. They aren't supposed to sound like that.


Band has a tour engineer, and he has already told me that they will absoutly
need every mic on the rider
The mix will be out of my hand, but my reputation will take the hit
it just sucks

Don't put up any signs with your company's name on it. Wear conspicious
bright orange over-the-ear hearing protectors at all times so if anyone
asks, you can tell them it's too loud for you too.

The thing is... spotmiking big bands gives you sound that is not just loud,
it's also BAD. Earplugs will protect you from loud sound, but it won't
do anything about the badness.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[cjt]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
muzician21 wrote:


I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?


If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.


Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not
optimistic. In 30 years, the majority of the populace will be deaf, and
wondering how they got that way.

[cjt]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Tim Perry wrote:

So there is your answer. You are simply frequenting the wrong places.


Sadly, most places these days are the wrong places. Too many places have
bands that demand the sound be too loud. Too many places have _patrons_
that demand the sound be too loud.

It's not just electric music either... the same problem exists at
acoustic folk music events.

Sometimes you can blame the PA operators... but they're usually not the
main problem.

I carry the Etymotic earplugs wherever I go.
--scott

I walk out, but it's getting tiresome -- I've walked out of quite a few
events.

[cjt]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Peter Larsen wrote:

Paul P wrote:


Every show I've been to at this hall whether it be a choir, a dance
school end of year performance, or a pop concert they're all far too
loud. My personal theory is that the sound guys are all deaf and
can't understand that everyone is suffering.

Read what Tim wrote, and this time: read it. There _are_ exceptions and some
of those are idiotic as the one you describe, but generally it is the
musical act that sets the sound level by being too loud on stage.


Note also that a _lot_ of people in the 18-30 age group already have mild
deafness to begin with. If your audience is deaf....
--scott

I work with a lot of deaf people, and often even they can tell things
are too loud -- they FEEL the volume.

[cjt]

geoff wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Tim Perry wrote:

So there is your answer. You are simply frequenting the wrong places.

Sadly, most places these days are the wrong places. Too many places
have bands that demand the sound be too loud. Too many places have
_patrons_ that demand the sound be too loud.


I heard people (patrons) saying how pleased they were with the concert
BECAUSE their ears are ringing !!??!


geoff


That's just sad, but I don't doubt for a moment that it's true.

[cjt]

geoff wrote:

Ron wrote:

I do quite a few gigs with young bands, and the main culprits there
are drummers who lay into the kit like they are trying to break it.
If the drums are loud, the guitars and bass tend to play loud with the
resultant over spill into the vocal mikes, then they want the wedges
loud... you know the rest.


One of the young bands that use my rehearsal faciltity seem to break 3 or 4
sticks every session ! They don't seem to understand that sothing is not
quite right there.

Tyem - "But we need to be loud to sound right !". Me - "That's only because
it's so loud you can't hear the mistakes"

geoff


I've been at a concert where a _pianist_ has broken strings on two
successive Steinways (all the venue had available, so the concert
continued with a missing string -- luckily the note in question had
multiple strings).

[cjt]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Just because you have 24 mikes up on stage doesn't mean ANY of them have
to
be actually turned on.

I really hate the current (well, post-1970) fashion of spotmiking the crap
out of big bands. They aren't supposed to sound like that.


Band has a tour engineer, and he has already told me that they will absoutly
need every mic on the rider
The mix will be out of my hand, but my reputation will take the hit
it just sucks


Don't put up any signs with your company's name on it. Wear conspicious
bright orange over-the-ear hearing protectors at all times so if anyone
asks, you can tell them it's too loud for you too.

The thing is... spotmiking big bands gives you sound that is not just loud,
it's also BAD. Earplugs will protect you from loud sound, but it won't
do anything about the badness.
--scott

Well said.

[B R]

On Jul 20, 9:44*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


I carry the Etymotic earplugs wherever I go.

Me too, they're a life changer. I got them when I was collaborating
with a Taiko drumming ensemble, to deal with the loud stage volume -
best $150 I ever spent.

I always used to be hitting the bathroom when seeing shows (or at
parties, clubs, ...) to makeshift some earplugs out of firmly rolled
damp toilet paper. If I wasn't packing foamies, it was better than
nothing, guess I took my chances on emergency extractions...

But now, the -15dB filters are flat enough that I don't feel like I'm
missing much, and they'll take a 100-110dB PA a little ways out of the
danger zone. Singing is a little weird with them in, I find I need
higher monitor levels. Hmmm maybe that could be a vicious circle...
Thankfully for most groups I play with stage volume isn't an issue and
I don't need them.

On a tangent... the best side benefit I've found is for flights - I no
longer arrive at a gig in another city with ears already exhausted
from the trip.

Highly recommended for anyone concerned about their hearing.

--
Ben

[Geoff]

B R wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:44 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


I carry the Etymotic earplugs wherever I go.

Me too, they're a life changer. I got them when I was collaborating
with a Taiko drumming ensemble, to deal with the loud stage volume -
best $150 I ever spent.


My ET-20s cost more like $20 ! I've also had some E.A.R ones for 10 years
+ , and the Etymotics appear pretty much identical.

geoff.

[B R]

On Jul 20, 9:44*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Sometimes you can blame the PA operators... but they're usually not the
main problem.

Tough situations arise all the time, as you say. Trying to balance a
mix with a screaming loud guitar amp or a powerful drummer is
challenging. Or making an ill-informed client happy. But I think there
is a role for sound techs to play.

In my other life as a sound engineer, I've offended artists by
refusing to take the PA up to the level they want. Recently I had a
nameless European noise artist actually swipe my dB meter off my
console at intermission because he thought the 100-105 dB levels were
nowhere near loud enough. And that's already way past where I'm
comfortable. It was a small room with an under-powered PA

I'm the wrong guy for those gigs, obviously - there's an ultra-loud
aesthetic to noise music. But rock gigs (or loud folk gigs, or
whatever) aren't that different. To me, it's an ethical issue. As the
"professionals", it's up to us to take some care with the audience, to
know what's safe. The audience isn't necessarily well-informed about
safe exposure levels, nor do they carry dB meters around. And I think
there's an assumption that "these guys know what they're doing, it
can't be that bad for me." So they'll to sit through hours of levels
that cause permanent hearing damage in minutes, with neither
protection nor informed consent.

Unfortunately I think I'm in the minority. So I'll keep packing ear
plugs around and try to gently educate people when the opportunity
arises. And as a musician let the sound folks know that it's ok with
me if levels are on the lower side. I wonder how long it will take to
change attitudes, and whether it will come from an aesthetic shift or
through regulation.

Just because it can be louder doesn't mean it should be louder.

--
Ben

[Geoff]

B R wrote:
On Jul 20, 7:20 pm, "geoff" wrote:
B R wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:44 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I carry the Etymotic earplugs wherever I go.

Me too, they're a life changer. I got them when I was collaborating
with a Taiko drumming ensemble, to deal with the loud stage volume -
best $150 I ever spent.

My ET-20s cost more like $20 ! I've also had some E.A.R ones for 10
years + , and the Etymotics appear pretty much identical.

geoff.

Ear molds with swappable filters. Maybe I was thinking of the wrong
name.

Yours presumably a higher-end range, Ety or otherwise. Mine are the ones
with the flanged slicone inserts and little acoustic labyrinths in the
'handle'.

geoff

[B R]

On Jul 20, 7:20*pm, "geoff" wrote:
B R wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:44 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I carry the Etymotic earplugs wherever I go.

Me too, they're a life changer. I got them when I was collaborating
with a Taiko drumming ensemble, to deal with the loud stage volume -
best $150 I ever spent.

My ET-20s cost more like $20 *! *I've also had some E.A.R ones for 10 years
+ , and the Etymotics appear pretty much identical.

geoff.

Ear molds with swappable filters. Maybe I was thinking of the wrong
name.

[Dave]

On Jul 19, 11:21*pm, cjt wrote:
So there is your answer. You are simply frequenting the wrong
places.

How true. *Be sure to tell them WHY you're walking out (although I doubt
any will change their habits).


I doubt they will hear him... lol.

[Dave]

On Jul 19, 9:15*pm, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

loud music causes dry mouth, and thus more drink tabs?

[nandan21]

On Jul 20, 6:15*am, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

It’s NOT the sound guy to be blamed for loudness. Lot of times I have
experienced that performers want audio to be loud (most of the times,
to the dismay of audience). Also, some of the dominating accompanying
musicians want their instrument to be heard over and above all. So
lots of factors, unless organiser, audience or band leader is vocal
enough and wants it to be turned down.

[Ron[_11_]]

nandan21 wrote:
On Jul 20, 6:15 am, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

It’s NOT the sound guy to be blamed for loudness. Lot of times I have
experienced that performers want audio to be loud (most of the times,
to the dismay of audience). Also, some of the dominating accompanying
musicians want their instrument to be heard over and above all. So
lots of factors, unless organiser, audience or band leader is vocal
enough and wants it to be turned down.

I occasionally mix sound for a national student jazz orchestra. It's
just strategically placed mikes for solos - reeds and bones, and
vocals. Maybe seven or eight mikes in total. The only wedge on stage is
for the vocalist.
Before each concert, the band leader explains to the audience that "it`s
going to be loud - it`s not the sound engineers fault, it`s just _loud_"
and it is, but not in a bad way, it`s very dynamic, the quiet bits are
quiet and the loud bits are loud. I keep it all as acoustic as possible
because that`s how I believe it should be

Of course, these cats can play!

Ron(UK)

[Mike Rivers]

Tim Perry wrote:

Area micing simply did not work. It should have but didn't. The brass simply
doesn't drop down far enough for soloists to take precedence.

This is not a band. You must be doing this just for the money.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

cjt wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.

Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not
optimistic.

Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and
complaining that it was too loud?


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
cjt wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.

Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not
optimistic.

Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and
complaining that it was too loud?


I placed a complaint with Troy Savings Bank Music hall after a Norman
Blake/Doc Watson show I attended
I was in the balcony and the only sound was on the floor, all I heard was
echos and muddy spill from the floor
when I wrote them the response I got was to the effect, I was plain wrong,
the sound in the hall is perfect and they have no shortage of other buyers
for that seat
NO REFUND FOR YOU
never been back
George

[theclyde]

In my other life as a sound engineer, I've offended artists by
refusing to take the PA up to the level they want. Recently I had a

Thank you for taking a stand. If more people like you spoke out we
could reverse the situation.

I was at a coffee house where an newbie blues band was doing
soundcheck. The first guitar got the levels set, then the second
guitar said "more me in the monitors" to which the engineer replied
"no. you have enough. If you cannot hear yourself ove the other guitar
then the other guitar needs to be quieter". Made me so very happy

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
B R wrote:
On Jul 20, 7:20=A0pm, "geoff" wrote:
B R wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:44 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I carry the Etymotic earplugs wherever I go.

Me too, they're a life changer. I got them when I was collaborating
with a Taiko drumming ensemble, to deal with the loud stage volume -
best $150 I ever spent.

My ET-20s cost more like $20 =A0! =A0I've also had some E.A.R ones for 10=
years
+ , and the Etymotics appear pretty much identical.

geoff.

Ear molds with swappable filters. Maybe I was thinking of the wrong
name.

I think you pay a lot more for the custom earmolded ones than the generic
christmas-tree kind. I haven't tried the custom ones since I am too prone
to lose things like that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."