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Default Show display makes point of using low cost gear

Here is a link recieved in a mailing list. The author is a high end
manufacture and inventer/developer/author of speakers. He is reporting on
his experience at a recent audio show. He made a specific point of using
low cost audio gear, something around $200 for the lot, to display his
products. I agree with most of his views and would like to see the
reactions of others.

"From Dr. Earl Geddes' site:

http://gedlee.com/downloads/Observations%20and%20Thoughts.pdf"


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wrote:
Here is a link recieved in a mailing list. The author is a high end
manufacture and inventer/developer/author of speakers. He is reporting on
his experience at a recent audio show. He made a specific point of using
low cost audio gear, something around $200 for the lot, to display his
products. I agree with most of his views and would like to see the
reactions of others.

"From Dr. Earl Geddes' site:

http://gedlee.com/downloads/Observations%20and%20Thoughts.pdf"


He went to a high-end show with $200 worth of electronics to drive his
speakers??? That man has guts.

He blames the high-end nutcases for dissuading consumers from pursuing
good sound. There's probably a little truth to that, but most of the
people picking up mini-systems at Best Buy are folks who never would
have been interested anyway (and that's just fine). However, I
thoroughly enjoyed the notion of these drowning high-end guys proposing
to "educate" people about the sound of cables. Better to teach 'em a
little physics, although that would obviously be very bad for business.

At the other extreme, here's a rather charming story from Thursday's
New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/06/fa...pagewanted=all

Audiophiles will be mortified at the cheap crud being discussed here
(and I do worry about what those records are going to sound like once
they've been played on such things--though they probably haven't been
cared for too well already). But the idea of a little girl finding
boxes of her dad's old LPs in the closet and wanting to hear them (and
maybe digitize a few to work into her school projects) is really what
it's all about--not because it's vinyl, just because it's music. Never
forget that.

bob
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Chung
 
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Uptown Audio wrote:
I thought that you said you own Krell amplifiers and Apogee speakers.
Have you traded them for a Pioneer receiver and Bose speakers?
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250



That's interesting. When did anyone say that Apogee speakers and Bose
speakers sound the same or are interchangeable?

Even if you can find a Pioneer receiver that sounds the same as a Krell,
over all power and load conditions, there are many other non-sonic
attributes leading to a preference of one over the other. Wonder what
did you really find funny about (as suggested in your title)?


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Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On 8 Oct 2005 22:29:23 GMT, Uptown Audio wrote:

I thought that you said you own Krell amplifiers and Apogee speakers.
Have you traded them for a Pioneer receiver and Bose speakers?


I certainly wouldn't buy them from you! :-)

Note particularly that I've owned those units for more than ten years,
which is probably what worries a 'high end' boutique owner like you.
No unnecessary churning of perfectly adequate gear really does mean
the end of 'high-end' audio in the conventional sense, because truly
high-end *quality* is now available to all without the need for
'designer nametags'.

I note also your sly attempt to distort what I said, which most
definitely did not include speakers. As I have been saying for a long
time now, this is where most of the system budget should go, because
they really *do* make a difference. Sweep all those laser-etched
half-inch thick faceplates off your shelves, and make space for more
Avalons, Quads and B&Ws!

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
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Mike Gilmour
 
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"Chung" wrote in message
...
Uptown Audio wrote:
I thought that you said you own Krell amplifiers and Apogee speakers.
Have you traded them for a Pioneer receiver and Bose speakers?
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250



That's interesting. When did anyone say that Apogee speakers and Bose
speakers sound the same or are interchangeable?

Even if you can find a Pioneer receiver that sounds the same as a Krell,
over all power and load conditions, there are many other non-sonic
attributes leading to a preference of one over the other. Wonder what did
you really find funny about (as suggested in your title)?


I'm sure what Bill means is that both Krell amplifiers and Apogee speakers
are generally accepted as high-end audio components whereas the Bose
speakers and Pioneer receiver may be considered as not.
There are and have been all too many poorly engineered high-end components
with elevated prices that has put the industry as a whole into disrepute,
including that of the burgeoning snakeoil accessory industry. I do feel the
often blanket damnation of all things high-end is at times unjustified.
Stewart would have chosen both his amplifier and speakers carefully from the
high-end component selection available at that time using both his
engineering and sonic judgements. I did likewise with my Infinity Reference
speakers and NRG amplifier and I still admire the performance and
engineering of both as I'm sure Stewart does of his.
If with ever advancing technology the audio industry can provide good sound
for less then great but what appears to be continuing in the high end is the
astronomical nay stratospheric rise in component price. Anyone here got a
£25K amp?

Mike

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wrote in message ...
Here is a link recieved in a mailing list. The author is a high end
manufacture and inventer/developer/author of speakers. He is reporting on
his experience at a recent audio show. He made a specific point of using
low cost audio gear, something around $200 for the lot, to display his
products. I agree with most of his views and would like to see the
reactions of others.

"From Dr. Earl Geddes' site:

http://gedlee.com/downloads/Observations%20and%20Thoughts.pdf"

I can't find a lot to disagree with, other than his comments that some
people might be able to hear differences in cables, but I do agree that even
if it were possible, I don't care since the speaker/room interface is vastly
more important and makes muchmore difference than anything else an
audiophile can doo.

With what do you disagree?
  #9   Report Post  
 
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"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...
"Chung" wrote in message
...
Uptown Audio wrote:
I thought that you said you own Krell amplifiers and Apogee speakers.
Have you traded them for a Pioneer receiver and Bose speakers?
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250



That's interesting. When did anyone say that Apogee speakers and Bose
speakers sound the same or are interchangeable?

Even if you can find a Pioneer receiver that sounds the same as a Krell,
over all power and load conditions, there are many other non-sonic
attributes leading to a preference of one over the other. Wonder what did
you really find funny about (as suggested in your title)?


I'm sure what Bill means is that both Krell amplifiers and Apogee speakers
are generally accepted as high-end audio components whereas the Bose
speakers and Pioneer receiver may be considered as not.


With respect to Pioneer, that judgement, (that they are bad) doesn't seem to
coincide with reality. I recently had a chance to compare a Pioneer
VSX-1015TX to an Acoustat 120wpc amp, and could find no difference.

There are and have been all too many poorly engineered high-end components
with elevated prices that has put the industry as a whole into disrepute,
including that of the burgeoning snakeoil accessory industry.


It is my contention that high prices are the least of the problems facing
the High Enders. The biggest problem is the long list of of outright
fraudulent products that can not actually do anything, let alone what they
claim

I do feel the
often blanket damnation of all things high-end is at times unjustified.


What, aside from speakers, in your opinion, really quailifes as true High
End?

Stewart would have chosen both his amplifier and speakers carefully from
the
high-end component selection available at that time using both his
engineering and sonic judgements.


He has stated many times that he got the Krell amp at a price that mad it a
good buy and because of it's reputation it was good to have as an
unassailable reference.

I did likewise with my Infinity Reference
speakers and NRG amplifier and I still admire the performance and
engineering of both as I'm sure Stewart does of his.
If with ever advancing technology the audio industry can provide good
sound
for less then great but what appears to be continuing in the high end is
the
astronomical nay stratospheric rise in component price. Anyone here got a
£25K amp?

Nope, nd never will even if I should have the disposable income to afford
one. There's nothing to be gained, other than braggin rights and I have no
need for such things.
  #10   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On 9 Oct 2005 17:40:29 GMT, "Mike Gilmour"
wrote:

"Chung" wrote in message
...
Uptown Audio wrote:
I thought that you said you own Krell amplifiers and Apogee speakers.
Have you traded them for a Pioneer receiver and Bose speakers?
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250



That's interesting. When did anyone say that Apogee speakers and Bose
speakers sound the same or are interchangeable?

Even if you can find a Pioneer receiver that sounds the same as a Krell,
over all power and load conditions, there are many other non-sonic
attributes leading to a preference of one over the other. Wonder what did
you really find funny about (as suggested in your title)?


I'm sure what Bill means is that both Krell amplifiers and Apogee speakers
are generally accepted as high-end audio components whereas the Bose
speakers and Pioneer receiver may be considered as not.
There are and have been all too many poorly engineered high-end components
with elevated prices that has put the industry as a whole into disrepute,
including that of the burgeoning snakeoil accessory industry. I do feel the
often blanket damnation of all things high-end is at times unjustified.
Stewart would have chosen both his amplifier and speakers carefully from the
high-end component selection available at that time using both his
engineering and sonic judgements. I did likewise with my Infinity Reference
speakers and NRG amplifier and I still admire the performance and
engineering of both as I'm sure Stewart does of his.


Correct, and furthermore I've been happy with them for ten years now,
I have heard numerous amps which sound just the same as the Krell, and
I feel no need to change. Why would I buy a Pioneer receiver when I
already have a perfectly good amp? That's storekeeper Bill's real
problem - audiophiles are catching on to the awful fact that they
don't need to buy new gear every year.

Of course, the Bose thing was just a typical strawman, as I have never
suggested that speakers don't make a difference.

If with ever advancing technology the audio industry can provide good sound
for less then great but what appears to be continuing in the high end is the
astronomical nay stratospheric rise in component price. Anyone here got a
£25K amp?


No, but there are plenty available from Bill and co! You might even
get some discount, things being the way they are in the high end these
days...............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


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Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On 10 Oct 2005 00:43:30 GMT, "
wrote:

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...


Stewart would have chosen both his amplifier and speakers carefully from
the
high-end component selection available at that time using both his
engineering and sonic judgements.


He has stated many times that he got the Krell amp at a price that mad it a
good buy and because of it's reputation it was good to have as an
unassailable reference.


Quite so, and it's always amusing to see the 'high-enders' thrashing
both ends of the same strawman. I get frequent snide comments that if
I'm an 'objectivist', why do I not change my Krell and Apogee for
Pioneer and Bose (although strangely, my 'entry level high end' vinyl
replay gear never gets attacked.......).

Note that they always mnention the speakers, despite *no one* ever
having suggested that speakers don't make a difference. Note also that
these comments are always made by regular posters who are well aware
of the philosophy behind my purchases, so these questions are
fundamentally dishonest.

At the same time, any 'objectivist' who is *not* in possession of
fancy label 'high end' gear is always told that he has 'obviously'
never heard really good reproduction. Fascinating arguments, no?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 10 Oct 2005 00:43:30 GMT, "
wrote:

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...


Stewart would have chosen both his amplifier and speakers carefully from
the
high-end component selection available at that time using both his
engineering and sonic judgements.


He has stated many times that he got the Krell amp at a price that mad it
a
good buy and because of it's reputation it was good to have as an
unassailable reference.


Quite so, and it's always amusing to see the 'high-enders' thrashing
both ends of the same strawman. I get frequent snide comments that if
I'm an 'objectivist', why do I not change my Krell and Apogee for
Pioneer and Bose (although strangely, my 'entry level high end' vinyl
replay gear never gets attacked.......).

Note that they always mnention the speakers, despite *no one* ever
having suggested that speakers don't make a difference. Note also that
these comments are always made by regular posters who are well aware
of the philosophy behind my purchases, so these questions are
fundamentally dishonest.

At the same time, any 'objectivist' who is *not* in possession of
fancy label 'high end' gear is always told that he has 'obviously'
never heard really good reproduction. Fascinating arguments, no?
--

If by that you mean tired, old, and demonstrably untrue, then yes.
The snobbery of audiophiles has always been bewildering to me. I don't know
of any other hobby where it is so. Generally the best of a given thing is
known and those who can afford it if it's expensive purchase it, and if they
can't, nobody ridicules them, or tells them they don't know what good is.

I have a very hard time with the idea that there is much to claim as high
end other than speakers. I can understand why it might be so in turntables,
as there is a fair amount of precision involved, but I don't see the need to
invest that kind of money for an antique playback mode. And yes before
anybody asks again, I have heard some of the very best turntables made.
None of them ever beat out a good recording on CD, for me.

Would I be correct in assuming that you agree that for loudspeakers there
are not many that can equal or even compete with the current Dynaudio
products?

Anything other than Sigried Linkwitz's that are good in DIY?
  #13   Report Post  
Norman M. Schwartz
 
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" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
Here is a link recieved in a mailing list. The author is a high end
manufacture and inventer/developer/author of speakers. He is reporting
on
his experience at a recent audio show. He made a specific point of using
low cost audio gear, something around $200 for the lot, to display his
products. I agree with most of his views and would like to see the
reactions of others.

"From Dr. Earl Geddes' site:

http://gedlee.com/downloads/Observations%20and%20Thoughts.pdf"

I can't find a lot to disagree with, other than his comments that some
people might be able to hear differences in cables, but I do agree that
even
if it were possible, I don't care since the speaker/room interface is
vastly
more important and makes muchmore difference than anything else an
audiophile can doo.

With what do you disagree?


Yes and no. I never could hear any difference in either cable or wire. When
the wire and cable craze first arose I was given some Fulton interconnect
and Mark Levinson speaker wire to try. I couldn't hear any differences way
back then, and even if things have improved since then, my hearing certainly
hasn't. It's obvious that when some folks are unable to modify their
speaker/room interface they resort to other methods to ameliorate a bad
situation. When things don't change they then seek comfort in assuring
themselves that things got "fixed" (to some degree).

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