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  #1041   Report Post  
Bob Olhsson
 
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"EggHd" wrote in message
...
Not so. I am saying these bands (take the dead out) built the touring

base
before giving music away.


FWIW, the Dead had built their touring base long before they ever allowed
taping. The only reason they finally set up a taping section was so they
could stop tapers from beating up on people who were sitting in favorable
seats. They stood to lose more from a reputation for people being assaulted
at their shows than they did from lost record sales.

The idea that the band prospered from giving away their music is pure bunk.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com


  #1042   Report Post  
George
 
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In article
,
"Bob Olhsson" wrote:

"EggHd" wrote in message
...
Not so. I am saying these bands (take the dead out) built the touring

base
before giving music away.


FWIW, the Dead had built their touring base long before they ever allowed
taping. The only reason they finally set up a taping section was so they
could stop tapers from beating up on people who were sitting in favorable
seats. They stood to lose more from a reputation for people being assaulted
at their shows than they did from lost record sales.

The idea that the band prospered from giving away their music is pure bunk.


I remeber having a hollowed out crutch to carry my mics in and then get
them up in the air
we used to wrap mic cords around our then not so large mid
sections,little sony d5's taped to our inner thighs
you are correct they did not just embrace bootlegging thier shows
George
  #1043   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
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In article writes:

That's the whole point. In a previous post you claimed there were no
examples of bands who gave away their music and subsequently built a
strong base of support for their tours.


Is there a clear connection between giving away music and getting good
audiences while on tour? Sure, by allowing informal recordings of your
shows, you can attract a core of tapers, and they might even buy
merchandise.

Admittedly, distributing music for free has always been a way to
attract attention to a band. That's what radio airplay does. So a
controlled distribution through some other means can be modeled the
same way. Uncontrolled distribution, however, will yield random
results.

The Grateful Dead literally invented P2P. It started out with
individuals trading tapes. One of the first uses of the internet was
for them to communicate and trade tapes across a wider group. This was
long before audio file exchanges over the internet were practical. And
the concert tapes outnumber the label releases by a staggering margin.


In quantity, perhaps. However, you have to be a real fan of the
culture (different from a fan of the music) to enjoy listening to most
of those tapes, and that's a relatively small cult following - not
nearly large enough to support a working band with today's costs.

I conducted a test once. Back when I was hanging out on the DAT-Heads
list, I offered a challange - I wanted to hear a recording of a Dead
show that sounded good enough for me (who likes much of their music
but isn't into the Deadhead fan thing) to enjoy. I got a lot of
excuses ("It was a really great show but something in my system wasn't
working right and my recording was messed up so I decided not to send
it to you . . . ") and a few recordings.

They sounded dreadful. Most were just poorly recorded - ineffective
mic placement, wind noise, crowd noise, low quality equipment. Some
had mechanical flaws like crackling cables or loose plugs, or being
too far down someone's chain and there were interruptions in the
recording while someone flipped over a tape. Others were just so far
down on the generation tree that even if the original recording
sounded OK, the copy suffered greatly. There was nothing I'd ever
listen to again.

While I can understand the historic and collectable value of such a
recording (hey, I've made some like that myself), I can't imagine
anyone but a dyed-in-the-wool fan wanting to listen to it. And they
wouldn't be necessarily listening to the music, they'd be listening
for abberations - something that someone said off-mic, a flubbed solo,
a really great solo, etc. This does not make for significant income to
support a touring band.

The game is still open for play. If anyone wants to send me a really
great sounding tape of a Dead show, I'll be happy to listen to it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  #1044   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
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In article writes:

The brick and mortar joints have absolutely no protection against the
kind of theft we're discussing at all. Everybody who buys records from
the store is capable of making as many copies as they like and
distributing them illegally.


They have protection against theft of their own investment, which
isn't the music, it's the plastic.

Of course people can make copies of CDs and distribute them illegally.
Back when I was a poor college student, I used to trade the loan of
records with friends, and I occasionally made a tape of one that I
wanted to hear again. I still have most of those tapes, and I still
pull them out and listen to them occasionally.

However, I was one of a fairly small number of people who had a tape
recorder (this was before cassettes, even) and a good enough setup so
that I could make an enjoyable recording. Some people were doing it by
putting the little crystal microphone that came with their tape
Wollensak recorder in front of the speaker of the portable record
player. I had a Garrard turntable, a GE cartridge, a Heathkit
amplifier, and an Ampex A-122 recorder. And if I wanted two copies of
the record, I repeated the real time process. Not very convenient for
making copies for all of my friends, so the most I ever did with
multiple copies was copied a tune that I thought would be good for my
band to play and passed it out to the others in the band.

The difference today is that just about everyone who has a computer
has the tools to make a copy in much less than real time, and has the
ability to distribute them, even to people they don't know, with no
effort whatsoever. Convenience is what makes the problem.

I think the primary hold-up with internet
distribution is that the labels want some sort of bulletproof copy
protection scheme built into the format.


That would certainly reduce their risk, but as we all know, nothing is
bulletproof.

We need to get over it, and get on with selling to whoever is
willing to buy.


They have. That's what iTunes is. The fact that it's a compressed
format makes downloading accessable to more users, and there's at
least copy protection at the 'inconvenience' level.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  #1045   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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George wrote:

I have no desire to pay retail for fish food when I can get the same
fish food for 40% off


Do you consider the possibility that the farmed fish that costs so
little is ****ing over the ocean's ability to sustain wild fish, and
that at some point that process will disable the ocean's ability to
support farmed fish, too?

the discounter serves me better for some things , and the smaller more
focused business serves me b etter for other things, like 40 channel
soundcraft consoles


If Behringer could succeed like WalMart is suckceeding you would not
have the option to buy a Soundcraft; they would not remain in business.

--
ha


  #1046   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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reddred wrote:

That was on the tip of my tongue. That's the main problem with the whole
thing as a promotional vehicle. Time Warner could make a good case for
owning the gnutella network tomorrow, but if they got it, how could they
make it work?


"AOLtella! Step right up, folks... Meet our investment banker..."

--
ha
  #1048   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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reddred wrote:

"EggHd" wrote...


Universal has been sold for cheap? Vivendi did not buy them cheap.


Yeah it was a pretty big loss. Vivendi wants to go back to being a water
company.


Everybody gotta have water and there're no free downloads.

--
ha
  #1049   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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George Gleason wrote:

yeah its been a bitch to find a good wallet or belt kit at radio shack for a
while now.


Tandy, George, Tandy...

--
ha
  #1050   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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aborgman wrote:

Grateful Dead


But by the time the Dead set up areas for folks to tape without getting
in the way of the rest of the paying customers, they were already famous
and drawing outstanding crowds. Similarly, the other bands you reference
built their performance draw first, and therefrom derived the live
recording giveaway action.

--
ha


  #1051   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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reddred wrote:

"EggHd" wrote...


That's nitpicking, you have your answer.


That's silly. Unlike you I met with String Cheese Incident


Will you cut that **** out? It's unbecoming.


It puts some things into important persepective. Some people here are
not speculating about how the business works, nor about who did what
when, nor how they did it; they know exactly whereof they speak from
firsthand experience of being in the business, and in some cases from
being directly involved with the very artsits under discussion in a
given thread. Like this here thread, for specific instance. What the man
has to say is more relevant than my opinion about how the Cheese does
their biz.

when they were looking for a record deal years ago and know exaclty
how they do business and where their audience came from and it wasn't
free mp3's.


Who said mp3's? Not you. But I am 100 percent certain that college kids
trade free mp3's of string cheese incident, which is part of word-of-mouth,
and without that mechanism when SCI played, they wouldn't go.


And those kids found those songs before String Cheese had already found
a huge audience for their live shows?

--
ha
  #1052   Report Post  
hank alrich
 
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Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

In a previous post you claimed there were no
examples of bands who gave away their music and subsequently built a
strong base of support for their tours. Now you want to preclude
consideration of anybody who has done so.


There is nothing "subsequent" about the chronology of the Dead's touring
success and their allowance of live taping and trading; first came the
crowds; later came the taping. It did not happen in reverse order.
Performance drove the taping; taping did not establish the draw. If
somebody tries to hold up the Dead as an example of a band the built
tehir success on giving away their music, that someone is misinformed
about how events flowed.

--
ha
  #1058   Report Post  
reddred
 
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"hank alrich" wrote in message
. ..
reddred wrote:


when they were looking for a record deal years ago and know exaclty
how they do business and where their audience came from and it wasn't
free mp3's.


Who said mp3's? Not you. But I am 100 percent certain that college kids
trade free mp3's of string cheese incident, which is part of

word-of-mouth,
and without that mechanism when SCI played, they wouldn't go.


And those kids found those songs before String Cheese had already found
a huge audience for their live shows?


Chicken or egg? It's part of the whole picture. It contributes, just like
taping did for deadheads. A burnt cd or an emailed mp3 is more likely to
bring a new fan to a show than a live tape was for the dead, but the
bootlegs of live shows helped reinforce the fan base. Mp3's of a band seem
to perform both functions, especially if they come from a friend.

You know, it doesn't matter one bit what anybody's opinion is, there is not
one person in or out of the industry that seems to have any concrete idea
how this technology affects the music business, and the disconnect between
the industry's idea of what is happening and the way the fans actually
interface with mp3's is tremendous.

jb



  #1060   Report Post  
Justin Ulysses Morse
 
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hank alrich wrote:

reddred wrote:

"EggHd" wrote...


Universal has been sold for cheap? Vivendi did not buy them cheap.


Yeah it was a pretty big loss. Vivendi wants to go back to being a water
company.


Everybody gotta have water and there're no free downloads.



Dude, it's raining. Everybody just wants to sell me a plastic
container. Music and water occur in nature without the plastic.

ulysses


  #1061   Report Post  
EggHd
 
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Dude, it's raining. Everybody just wants to sell me a plastic
container. Music and water occur in nature without the plastic

What does this mean? You should not pay your water bill?




---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  #1062   Report Post  
George
 
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In article ,
Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

reddred wrote:

"EggHd" wrote...


Universal has been sold for cheap? Vivendi did not buy them cheap.


Yeah it was a pretty big loss. Vivendi wants to go back to being a water
company.


Everybody gotta have water and there're no free downloads.



Dude, it's raining. Everybody just wants to sell me a plastic
container. Music and water occur in nature without the plastic.

yes but you need a paid addmission to enjoy it
to me it doesn't matter if it is on a disc, a live concert, or sent via
passanger pidgeon
the artist needs to have thier copyrights protected
the artist needs to be compensated finacial for thier work
freeloading fileshares do neither
George
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