Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Albie Albie is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

The consenus seems to be that the modern Plextor is not in the same
league as the older models from that company. More like the Lite-Ons.
If good 4x burners are out of production, can someone suggest a few
modern alternative burners from their own experience that will burn
audio CDs without "static" or "motorboating" artifacts on heavily
modulated passages? It should have a SATA interface if possible.
tia Albie
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,295
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

Albie wrote:

The consenus seems to be that the modern Plextor is not in the same
league as the older models from that company.


The hearsay I am familiar with is that the cheaper Plextors are outsourced
to China and the premium models still are made in Japan. I'll worry about
the burner choice when I have to choose the next one.


Albie


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


  #3   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,172
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

"Albie" wrote ...
The consenus seems to be that the modern Plextor is not in the same
league as the older models from that company. More like the Lite-Ons.
If good 4x burners are out of production, can someone suggest a few
modern alternative burners from their own experience that will burn
audio CDs without "static" or "motorboating" artifacts on heavily
modulated passages? It should have a SATA interface if possible.


It doesn't seem possible that the disc burner drive can possibly have
anything to do with audio artifacts (content-dependent or otherwise).
I would seriously discount the source of that information.


  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Dave Platt Dave Platt is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 169
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?


In article ,
Richard Crowley wrote:

The consenus seems to be that the modern Plextor is not in the same
league as the older models from that company. More like the Lite-Ons.
If good 4x burners are out of production, can someone suggest a few
modern alternative burners from their own experience that will burn
audio CDs without "static" or "motorboating" artifacts on heavily
modulated passages? It should have a SATA interface if possible.


It doesn't seem possible that the disc burner drive can possibly have
anything to do with audio artifacts (content-dependent or otherwise).
I would seriously discount the source of that information.


A bad burn can result in the sort of "static" and "motorboating", if
it's bad enough that the CD player's C1/C2 Reed-Solomon error
correction logic cannot recover the original burned data accurately.

When this happens, the CD player must mute the audio output, or
interpolate between known-good sample values, or do both of these
things. This can result in audible glitches in the music. Such
interpolations and mutings might be more audible during loud passages
than during quiet... this will depend on the severity of the defect
and on the specific muting/interpolation algorithms implemented in the
CD player.

A *really* bad burn can result in the CD player losing its
tracking-lock on the spiral, and either skipping or repeating whole
revrevrevrevrevolutions of the m!ic on the disc. That might be what
the OP is referred to as "motorboating".

In my experience, burning at moderate speeds, with high-quality blank
discs, seems to produce the best results.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Mr.T Mr.T is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,108
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
It doesn't seem possible that the disc burner drive can possibly have
anything to do with audio artifacts (content-dependent or otherwise).
I would seriously discount the source of that information.


If the burnt disk contains unrecoverable read errors, a standard CD player
may very well produce audio artefacts of some kind.
I have never once had that problem with any of the 3 Pioneers I use when
recording on Verbatim disks. Not to say you *can't* get a bad burner or a
bad disk of course.

MrT.





  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,172
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

"Dave Platt" wrote ...
Richard Crowley wrote:
The consenus seems to be that the modern Plextor is not in the same
league as the older models from that company. More like the Lite-Ons.
If good 4x burners are out of production, can someone suggest a few
modern alternative burners from their own experience that will burn
audio CDs without "static" or "motorboating" artifacts on heavily
modulated passages? It should have a SATA interface if possible.


It doesn't seem possible that the disc burner drive can possibly have
anything to do with audio artifacts (content-dependent or otherwise).
I would seriously discount the source of that information.


A bad burn can result in the sort of "static" and "motorboating", if
it's bad enough that the CD player's C1/C2 Reed-Solomon error
correction logic cannot recover the original burned data accurately.


Those are artifacts from the *playback device* resulting from poor
data recovery (whether from a badly burned disk or whatever.)
The burner drive may be doing a very poor job of recording the
ones and zeroes, but it is NOT creating "audio artifacts". This is
the kind of "fuzzy thinking" that is misleading and causes people
to take irrelevant tangents in the pursuit of solutions.

One could make the argument that the playback device should
simply reject a disc with that many errors vs continuously muting
and unmuting like that.


  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,172
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

"Mr.T" wrote...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ...
It doesn't seem possible that the disc burner drive can possibly have
anything to do with audio artifacts (content-dependent or otherwise).
I would seriously discount the source of that information.


If the burnt disk contains unrecoverable read errors, a standard CD player
may very well produce audio artefacts of some kind.
I have never once had that problem with any of the 3 Pioneers I use when
recording on Verbatim disks. Not to say you *can't* get a bad burner or a
bad disk of course.


So they are artifacts from the *playback device*. Perhaps caused
by poor recording of the ones and zeroes by the burner drive. But
the burner drive is NEVER capable of recording "audio artifacts".


  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Mr.T Mr.T is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,108
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
If the burnt disk contains unrecoverable read errors, a standard CD

player
may very well produce audio artefacts of some kind.


So they are artifacts from the *playback device*.


Yep, that's what I said!
But the problem only occurs because of read errors on the disk. The whole
idea is to make good disks so it doesn't occur. A good burner and good disks
will achieve that.

MrT.


  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,172
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

"Mr.T" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ...
If the burnt disk contains unrecoverable read errors,
a standard CD player may very well produce audio
artefacts of some kind.


So they are artifacts from the *playback device*.


Yep, that's what I said!
But the problem only occurs because of read errors on the disk. The whole
idea is to make good disks so it doesn't occur. A good burner and good
disks
will achieve that.


It doesn't take "a good burner and good disks" to make recordings
above that very low level of quality. Practically any but the most
lousy drive and the very lowest-grade discs will produce recordings
free of those kind of playback artifacts.

If people are experiencing those kind of problems, then they are
already at the lowest edge of minimal functionality. Time to buy
decent discs, etc. If even RedBook playback ECC can't recover
the lousy recordings then they have absolutely ZERO chance of
burning any kind of readable DATA disc and something is
dramatically wrong with either the burner drive or the discs.

Remember that if you buy commodity discs with a "name brand"
of a company who merely OEMs discs from the cheapest source
of the month, you have no idea what you are getting from month
to month. You could be getting premium Taiyo-Yuden discs one
month and junk the next month with the same "name brand" on
them.

Disc burners can not burn AUDIO artifacts. But they may burn
such lousy DIGITAL data that they cause readers to flounder.
My bet would be that people who are having these kinds of
problems are using trash discs.



  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17,262
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message


Disc burners can not burn AUDIO artifacts. But they may
burn such lousy DIGITAL data that they cause readers to
flounder. My bet would be that people who are having these kinds of
problems are using trash discs.


Or, they are broken. IME burners (and readers) can fail progressively.




  #11   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Geoff Geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,562
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

Albie wrote:
The consenus seems to be that the modern Plextor is not in the same
league as the older models from that company. More like the Lite-Ons.
If good 4x burners are out of production, can someone suggest a few
modern alternative burners from their own experience that will burn
audio CDs without "static" or "motorboating" artifacts on heavily
modulated passages? It should have a SATA interface if possible.
tia Albie


I don't think I've ever sen a DR that has the feature you mention, however
cheap.

geoff


  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Geoff Geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,562
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

Dave Platt wrote:
In article ,
Richard Crowley wrote:

The consenus seems to be that the modern Plextor is not in the same
league as the older models from that company. More like the
Lite-Ons. If good 4x burners are out of production, can someone
suggest a few modern alternative burners from their own experience
that will burn audio CDs without "static" or "motorboating"
artifacts on heavily modulated passages? It should have a SATA
interface if possible.


It doesn't seem possible that the disc burner drive can possibly have
anything to do with audio artifacts (content-dependent or otherwise).
I would seriously discount the source of that information.


A bad burn can result in the sort of "static" and "motorboating", if
it's bad enough that the CD player's C1/C2 Reed-Solomon error
correction logic cannot recover the original burned data accurately.



Thanks for the CDR lesson. Amazing what regurgitating what you read
somewhere with little real understanding causes.

Um, you need to get better media, or media that better suites your burner.

geoff


  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Geoff Geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,562
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

geoff wrote:
Dave Platt wrote:
In article ,
Richard Crowley wrote:

The consenus seems to be that the modern Plextor is not in the same
league as the older models from that company. More like the
Lite-Ons. If good 4x burners are out of production, can someone
suggest a few modern alternative burners from their own experience
that will burn audio CDs without "static" or "motorboating"
artifacts on heavily modulated passages? It should have a SATA
interface if possible.

It doesn't seem possible that the disc burner drive can possibly
have anything to do with audio artifacts (content-dependent or
otherwise). I would seriously discount the source of that
information.


A bad burn can result in the sort of "static" and "motorboating", if
it's bad enough that the CD player's C1/C2 Reed-Solomon error
correction logic cannot recover the original burned data accurately.



Thanks for the CDR lesson. Amazing what regurgitating what you read
somewhere with little real understanding causes.

Um, you need to get better media, or media that better suites your
burner.
geoff


Ooops, Sorry Dave, thought you were the OP justifying his bizzarre assertion
re CD Writers !

geoff


  #14   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Mr.T Mr.T is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,108
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
So they are artifacts from the *playback device*.


Yep, that's what I said!
But the problem only occurs because of read errors on the disk. The

whole
idea is to make good disks so it doesn't occur. A good burner and good
disks
will achieve that.


It doesn't take "a good burner and good disks" to make recordings
above that very low level of quality. Practically any but the most
lousy drive and the very lowest-grade discs will produce recordings
free of those kind of playback artifacts.



As we agree, those artifacts are caused by the player not being able to read
the disk without errors. IME, and that of many others, a good burner and
good disks provide the best chance of minimising such errors. You MIGHT be
LUCKY with any old crap of course. As I mentioned elsewhere, a Plextor and
TayoYuden are not the only way to get good burns these days of course. But
one should at least check what the C1 and C2 error rate actually is IMO, if
you want a minimum level of reliability.



If people are experiencing those kind of problems, then they are
already at the lowest edge of minimal functionality. Time to buy
decent discs, etc.


So is it "decent disks" now, or still anything above the "very
lowest-grade"? Or are those terms completely arbitrary?


If even RedBook playback ECC can't recover
the lousy recordings then they have absolutely ZERO chance of
burning any kind of readable DATA disc and something is
dramatically wrong with either the burner drive or the discs.


Yep, but still all too common.


Remember that if you buy commodity discs with a "name brand"
of a company who merely OEMs discs from the cheapest source
of the month, you have no idea what you are getting from month
to month.
You could be getting premium Taiyo-Yuden discs one
month and junk the next month with the same "name brand" on
them.


Yep, which is why you should never buy from such companies! Buy from the
manufacturers instead, not the rebadgers.


Disc burners can not burn AUDIO artifacts. But they may burn
such lousy DIGITAL data that they cause readers to flounder.
My bet would be that people who are having these kinds of
problems are using trash discs.


And isn't that exactly what I've been saying all along? You OTOH say
anything above the "very lowest-grade" is OK.
I guess *your* definition of "very lowest-grade" is all encompassing! :-)


MrT.



  #15   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,295
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

Dave Platt wrote:

It doesn't seem possible that the disc burner drive can possibly have
anything to do with audio artifacts (content-dependent or otherwise).
I would seriously discount the source of that information.


A bad burn can result in the sort of "static" and "motorboating", if
it's bad enough that the CD player's C1/C2 Reed-Solomon error
correction logic cannot recover the original burned data accurately.


Which is why it is preferable to be able to test the disks, Mr. T was so
kind as to updaste my information, which was based on my understanding that
the Plextor Premium drives and Plextools Professional were the only
available and affordable "over the counter" solution to that. It is based on
test of actual burns that I learned that the lowest error rate with my
equipment was obtained by burning X16 rather than by burning X4.

In my experience, burning at moderate speeds, with high-quality blank
discs, seems to produce the best results.


Have you actually tested the outcome of the process with Plextools
Professional or comparable, if so what? - or are you guessing relative disk
quality based on "no problems in playback encountered?"

Kind regards

Peter Larsen








  #16   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,295
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message


Disc burners can not burn AUDIO artifacts. But they may
burn such lousy DIGITAL data that they cause readers to
flounder. My bet would be that people who are having these kinds of
problems are using trash discs.


Or, they are broken. IME burners (and readers) can fail progressively.


They will deteriorate, which is why objective quality testing is required
for serious use. For toy use it may be ok to wait for disks that do not play
back, but stuff will be objectively miserable for a long time prior to that.

That may not matter for the CD for the car, but for the CD for the archive
it does. CD'R's are not inherently stable, they are permanently light
sensitive and the error rate will increase over time, so it is a very good
concept to start out as low as possible. I like Plextools Professional very
much for that use, at the time I bought that Plextor burner it was the only
choice and my reason for paying the high price for the burner.



Kind regards

Peter Larsen






  #17   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Geoff Geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,562
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?

Peter Larsen wrote:

That may not matter for the CD for the car,


Actually, 'the car' used to be the ultimate test of dodgy CD-Rs. They were
very interloerant of any compromised paramter. But these days they are less
picky.

geoff


  #18   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Mr.T Mr.T is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,108
Default OK - What is currently a good burner for audio CD?


"geoff" wrote in message
...
Peter Larsen wrote:
That may not matter for the CD for the car,

Actually, 'the car' used to be the ultimate test of dodgy CD-Rs.


Because most were only designed to read pressed disks, not CD-R.
Reflectivity values are highly different.


They were very interloerant of any compromised paramter.
But these days they are less picky.


Especially since most are now data drives, rather than just commercial CD
Audio.

MrT.


Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Good good car audio apparel site? MitsuDiamante Car Audio 2 January 28th 07 10:36 AM
ImTOO Audio Maker (New Released!): audio CD burner or ripper? or even converter? dizzy... but well working! [email protected] Tech 1 September 6th 06 02:27 PM
audio to dvd burner reqluq Pro Audio 5 January 13th 06 09:58 AM
High-Res Audio DVD-A Burner Software News Len Moskowitz Pro Audio 3 April 8th 04 10:50 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:50 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"