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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead of solid-state transistor
Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology
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John |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 8, 12:32*pm, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart.
wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John Age doesn't determine quality, it more determines price. There are still some very good amplifiers from the 1950s about, like Quad II and similar. There are differences between valve and transistor amps' sound quality, both have their pros and cons, and some people much prefer valve. NT |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 8, 7:32*am, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart.
wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart Any good audio engineer can make a transistor sound like a tube but one thing they can't do is make a transistor glow like a tube. That my friend is the answer. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead of solid-state transistor
NX211 wrote:
On May 8, 7:32 am, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart Any good audio engineer can make a transistor sound like a tube but one thing they can't do is make a transistor glow like a tube. That my friend is the answer. Actually, it's easier to make a transistor glow like a tube than to make one sound like a tube. Fred |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead of solid-state transistor
On Sun, 8 May 2011 11:06:36 -0700, "Fred" wrote:
NX211 wrote: On May 8, 7:32 am, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart Any good audio engineer can make a transistor sound like a tube but one thing they can't do is make a transistor glow like a tube. That my friend is the answer. Actually, it's easier to make a transistor glow like a tube than to make one sound like a tube. Fred Yes, but if you blink you miss it. d |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead of solid-state transistor
Don Pearce wrote:
On Sun, 8 May 2011 11:06:36 -0700, "Fred" wrote: NX211 wrote: On May 8, 7:32 am, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart Any good audio engineer can make a transistor sound like a tube but one thing they can't do is make a transistor glow like a tube. That my friend is the answer. Actually, it's easier to make a transistor glow like a tube than to make one sound like a tube. Fred Yes, but if you blink you miss it. ;-) Fred d |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 8, 10:39*pm, Tabby wrote:
On May 8, 12:32*pm, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John Age doesn't determine quality, it more determines price. There are still some very good amplifiers from the 1950s about, like Quad II and similar. IMHO, Quad-II has a quite parsimonious amount amount of "very good" in it. It is one of the poorest mass made amplifiers ever foisted upon the public. But so were many others from 1950, Most mass makers were reluctant to make gear which compares well to what we can do with tubes now. The car industry also produced attrocious cars in 1950. nearly everything you bought was butcherd quality, or quality watered down. In 1955, everyone complained about cars rusting from the inside out while also wearing out rather too soon. Peter Walker didn't get famous because of his amps. He became famous for his electrostatic speakers. The Chinese make Quad amps now and has tried to make them better, but the Quad 40 has many shortcomings; they just don't get it. Things have not changed, the vast majority of stuff for sale is what I never want to own. And the fact that slave labour in China makes it for almost nothing so that when its sold in Oz after rapacious shop owners here sell it at 20 times the Chinese factory gate price, I still don't want it. The Chinese can make good underpants and plastic reader glasses, but not tube amps. I also get many solid state amps coming in for repairs, and made badly. There are differences between valve and transistor amps' sound quality, both have their pros and cons, and some people much prefer valve. Indeed. Both forms of amps should measure well at normal listening levels. I've heard some tube amps which don't, and they don't sound so good, and often its because the makers have NO IDEA about how to design anything. I have had to totally re-wire a lot of brandname amps because of the ignorance of the makers. Much tube gear is complete rubbish and the prooduct of minds that were merely greedy, and they peddle crap in an entrepreneuring effort which is a complete con job. Many people have more money than good sense let alone any ability to tell what really sounds well and slick promotion efforts get sales of rubbsh. Some people woud gladly eat a **** sandwich if they are told how ****in marvellous the sandwich is and shown how wonderful the sandwich looks. But I raise my hat to the **** producers of the world. I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. NT Patrick Turner. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 9, 4:06*am, "Fred" wrote:
NX211 wrote: On May 8, 7:32 am, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart Any good audio engineer can make a transistor sound like a tube but one thing they can't do is make a transistor glow like a tube. *That my friend is the answer. Actually, it's easier to make a transistor glow like a tube than to make one sound like a tube. Fred- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - NO. I never been able to make a transistor glow. But they can easily make fuses blow, after they have failed to become a sullen dull useless bit of junk which conducts like wire in both directions. Patrick Turner. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 9, 4:57*am, (Don Pearce) wrote:
On Sun, 8 May 2011 11:06:36 -0700, "Fred" wrote: NX211 wrote: On May 8, 7:32 am, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart Any good audio engineer can make a transistor sound like a tube but one thing they can't do is make a transistor glow like a tube. *That my friend is the answer. Actually, it's easier to make a transistor glow like a tube than to make one sound like a tube. Fred Yes, but if you blink you miss it. Sometimes bjts explode if they try to get hot. Then you need to have eyes wide shut. Patrick Turner. d- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead of solid-state transistor
On Sun, 8 May 2011 17:03:26 -0700 (PDT), Patrick Turner
wrote: On May 9, 4:06*am, "Fred" wrote: NX211 wrote: On May 8, 7:32 am, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart Any good audio engineer can make a transistor sound like a tube but one thing they can't do is make a transistor glow like a tube. *That my friend is the answer. Actually, it's easier to make a transistor glow like a tube than to make one sound like a tube. Fred- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - NO. I never been able to make a transistor glow. But they can easily make fuses blow, after they have failed to become a sullen dull useless bit of junk which conducts like wire in both directions. Patrick Turner. Back in the 1970s when I was designing the first digital pagers, we used a system called Molybdenum Gate Technology which would run off 2.5V. If you prised the lids off the chips, the FET drains would glow when they conducted. You could actually follow what the logic of the chip was doing this way. d |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 9, 1:48*pm, flipper wrote:
On Sun, 8 May 2011 17:00:41 -0700 (PDT), Patrick Turner wrote: On May 8, 10:39*pm, Tabby wrote: On May 8, 12:32*pm, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John Age doesn't determine quality, it more determines price. There are still some very good amplifiers from the 1950s about, like Quad II and similar. IMHO, Quad-II has a quite parsimonious amount amount of "very good" in it. It is one of the poorest mass made amplifiers ever foisted upon the public. But so were many others from 1950, Most mass makers were reluctant to make gear which compares well to what we can do with tubes now. The car industry also produced attrocious cars in 1950. nearly everything you bought was butcherd quality, or quality watered down. In 1955, everyone complained about cars rusting from the inside out while also wearing out rather too soon. Peter Walker didn't get famous because of his amps. He became famous for his electrostatic speakers. The Chinese make Quad amps now and has tried to make them better, but the Quad 40 has many shortcomings; they just don't get it. Things have not changed, the vast majority of stuff for sale is what I never want to own. And the fact that slave labour in China makes it for almost nothing so that when its sold in Oz after rapacious shop owners here sell it at 20 times the Chinese factory gate price, I still don't want it. The Chinese can make good underpants and plastic reader glasses, but not tube amps. I also get many solid state amps coming in for repairs, and made badly. There are differences between valve and transistor amps' sound quality, both have their pros and cons, and some people much prefer valve. Indeed. Both forms of amps should measure well at normal listening levels. I've heard some tube amps which don't, and they don't sound so good, and often its because the makers have NO IDEA about how to design anything. I have had to totally re-wire a lot of brandname amps because of the ignorance of the makers. Much tube gear is complete rubbish and the prooduct of minds that were merely greedy, and they peddle crap in an entrepreneuring effort which is a complete con job. Many people have more money than good sense let alone any ability to tell what really sounds well and slick promotion efforts get sales of rubbsh. Some people woud gladly eat a **** sandwich if they are told how ****in marvellous the sandwich is and shown how wonderful the sandwich looks. But I raise my hat to the **** producers of the world. I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. Until such time as you build and sell 'real performance' for the same or less price as the alleged 'crap' you're just an elitist curmudgeon. AND I am PROUD to be an elitist curmudgeon...... You don' realise that chinese workers get less than anyone I know here. A quick Google gave me http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...2051_mz011.htm I quote..... """"" .......The cost of Chinese factory labor is a paltry 64 cents an hour. Although that figure is rough, since it's pieced together from sketchy statistics, it's still the most thorough estimate ever compiled. It includes both wages and employer contributions for benefits and social insurance. And it covers not just city factory workers, who get the most attention, but the more numerous rural and suburban factory workers as well......... """"" Average mean income per annum where I live in Canberra = $66,000 pa. 270 days work at 9 hrs a day = 2,430 hrs, so mean hourly rate = $27.00 per hour. This by rough comparision is 42.4 times the wage of a Chinese worker. Or +32.5 dB more wages. Now I dunno about youse, but I refuse to work for 64 cents an hour. Of course the cost of living is less in China but at the end of the day if there are 200 man hours in a chinese amp, ( 5 men working for a week ), the cost of wages is $128, and if materials in chinese prices are also $128, then total cost of production = $256,and if you double that for the profit made my whoever owns the chinese company, maybe the Chinese Communist Party, then the export price might be $512. Take a look at http://www.avhub.com.au/index.php/Pr...amplifier.html Quad 80 is shown for $14,000. I searched around for Quad II-Forty and saw $6,500, but other places showed they are unavailable, maybe the Chinese have stopped production. Seems to me the curmudgeons are the western country importers and shop owners. I raise my hat to such cumudgeons, I'd never sell a damn thing if they cut their prices to what I consider reasonable. For awhile you could buy 5050 stereo power amps from "Hong-Kong Hi-Fi", some bunch of Chinese goons, and online for about $1,000. These POS amps are Jolida quality. I had rewire two which were bought by local guys to make 'em sing and stop smoking. People here and everywhere just don't give a **** about Chinese slave labour; oh yeah, nobody has trouble with social inequities all around the world. Yet all thse ****wit know-alls try to tell us the Chinese are giving us a mighty raw deal yet they are doing what we refuse to do. Just imagine if the Chinese quit exporting cheap underpants and gadgets. Your standard of living would plummet. Patrick Turner. |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 9, 3:34*am, Patrick Turner wrote:
People here and everywhere just don't give a **** about Chinese slave labour; oh yeah, nobody has trouble with social inequities all around the world. Yet all thse ****wit know-alls try to tell us the Chinese are giving us a mighty raw deal yet they are doing what we refuse to do. Just imagine if the Chinese quit exporting cheap underpants and gadgets. Your standard of living would plummet. Patrick Turner What did we do when underware and gadgets were made in the USA? Somehow I was able to afford a pair of Haines boxer shorts. Pt |
#14
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Back in the 1970s when I was designing the first digital pagers, we
used a system called Molybdenum Gate Technology which would run off 2.5V. If you prised the lids off the chips, the FET drains would glow when they conducted. You could actually follow what the logic of the chip was doing this way. d[/quote] The Junctions must then be of GaAs. HoHo! |
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For myself the vacuum tube amplifier is a source of satisfaction not thru listening but rather the challenge of building something. That way I can perform lots of objective tests on the circuit with modern test equipment. Compare how it does with others of similar bent & with the old original stuff. Then I put it on the shelf. Done quite a few that way, then authored articles for publication. But I could not make the kind of living I like doing that. All just for fun & my curiosity. Most of them seldom listened to again at all. I don't have enough money to build a race car. Or own a stable of antiques like Jay Leno. Can't afford a Shelby Mustang. But I do have an 87 Cobra I bought new back when I had a few extra bucks! Had it out the other day. It goes like Hell but drives like a truck. So there, John |
#16
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 10, 8:59*am, flipper wrote:
On Mon, 9 May 2011 06:06:04 -0700 (PDT), Pt wrote: On May 9, 3:34*am, Patrick Turner wrote: People here and everywhere just don't give a **** about Chinese slave labour; oh yeah, nobody has trouble with social inequities all around the world. Yet all thse ****wit know-alls try to tell us the Chinese are giving us a mighty raw deal yet they are doing what we refuse to do. Just imagine if the Chinese quit exporting cheap underpants and gadgets. Your standard of living would plummet. Patrick Turner What did we do when underware and gadgets were made in the USA? You had less of it. It's a simple matter of how much things cost vs how much you have to spend. Somehow I was able to afford a pair of Haines boxer shorts. And you could 'afford' them at twice the current price too. But would you 'like' paying twice as much? Price "mechanisms" are accepted without us big rich fat cats feeling the slightest guilt about what we pay because it is assumed the seller is happy with the price he's offering you. Of course there are happy slaves around the world and the USA was full of them until they abolished slavery around the time they had a civil war where a million men perished. Here in Oz, we probably had some happy convicts who'd been transported under duress from Brittain by the King of England and used as cheap labour everywhere. Our native blacks here were shot, poisoned, and treated like scum and no doubt some may have been happy to work as cowboys rounding up the cattle, but at wages far below "white fella pay". But we didn't have a civil war, maybe the worst that happened were a few pub brawls, and maybe two Labour Party meetings where a few chairs were broken after a rowdy night deciding what workers should do to give unified opposition to the Association Of Fat Arsed Bosses who always tried to keep Mr Little poor. I am not a rabid socialist who wants the lazy unproductive anarchy of East Germany or Russia or Cambodia etc where people get trambled down by others who think they are "more equal than anyone else". But all men are just blokes, and all women are just sheilas and once somebody is born anywhere in the world they should have equal rights, oppportunity, freedoms and equal duties of care to others, which means they are prepared to work not bludge, and not try un-ethical means to derive income without raising a sweat. Those who are rich should see to it that those who are poor may pull themselves up to us; If an african breaks a leg, he should be able to get to a doctor in a clean hospital and not have to bribe anyone, or pay $1,200 a month for medical insurance. Unfortunately, while everyone in the West likes to think how ****in marvellous they are there isn't much chance that Western human nature will ever insist on paying the Chinese the same price for something made in the West. The West is in a mad greedy scramble where the rich get richer yey they never have enough and they like to see others NOT doing so well as themselves because that boosts their cherished picture of their own grandness. Of course rich countries can go astray and become obsessed by all sorts of things such as maintaining influence and control over foreign countries. The more they do it, the more it costs, and it can send a rich country broke. Nobody wants to know. All sorts of crap reasons are trotted out. Its a long turgid story. Empires come, empires go. I should be able to open a factory to make tube amps here just as easily as I could anywhere else, but it is not so. A bloke here runs a small business selling music amps, electric guitars, all sorts of stuff to the "music industry." He found bigger shops who established themselves 50 years ago ganged up to prevent him getting supplies of Fenders and Marshalls from importers. Oh how people hate fair competition! Anyway, this new local fella's response was to go straight over to China and have tube amps and guitars made there by Mr Sixty Four Cents An Hour. The guys in China were happy to see him, and they produce a pile of generic crap that feeds out to the world all over. And our fella here gets his own name put on the Chinese stuff he imports. Once here in Oz, its sold at many times the Chinese ex factory price. There is NO established repair agent or product support. The young kids here trying to learn how to be rock stars buy all this stuff on their apprentice or junior worker wages. Are these kids mindful of their Chinese brothers whose apprentice wage was maybe 10c an hour and whose prospects of being a pop star are zip. What on earth is going through the minds of kids who want to be rock stars? Whoever thinks of the Mexicans making Fenders? Anyway, its very easy to see why a questioned existance poses far more questions than answers, and hence the need for a stable supply of container fulls of anti-depressant pills. Unrest among young minds is well known, and hence a proportion of them find solace in far stronger meds whose origin are the poppy fields of Afghanistan, where you guessed it, the West is at war with some locals. But I like to question everything I can and its net effect prevents depression. It sure prevented me leading an entirely pointless existance while trying to become richer than most other people on the Planet. One could argue that by agreeing to pay a smiling Chinese person 64c an hour, we are denying him his part of the Planet to which he is entitled. We sure are supporting a huge network of middle men. I always feel slightly guilty when I buy underpants. But nobody on Oz makes any. I'm too lazy to make my own, even though I have a sewing machine. And if I tried, the cloth itself would be from China, and maybe cost more than if already made into underpants by a Chinese Shiela working 10hrs a day at 40c an hour. But a couple of weeks ago I walked around the City to look in all the mensware stores for a black skivy. I wanted long arms, polo neck, all cotton, plain black. At K-mart, you could get a red one for $10. ( 60c ex China ), but no black. The up-market menswear stores with pretentious decor thought I may have been a bank robber looking for clobber, especially after I derided them for trying to flog me a "Made In Italy" brand of skivy at a knock down discount price of only $330. But cheap black skivies are not sold much because blokes buy them rather than buy a couple of shirts and a tie and a new suit which would make me look like Mr Pretentious. Maybe an online store will have WHAT I WANT, which isn't much, really. At least by shopping online I don't make quite so many middle men rich, but I can't arrange for the worker in China to get an extra dollar for their child's education - too many grasping hands are in the way. Patrick Turner. |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/08/11 20:48, flipper so wittily quipped:
I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. Until such time as you build and sell 'real performance' for the same or less price as the alleged 'crap' you're just an elitist curmudgeon. there may be a way to build the 'real performance' stuff AND compete with the 'crap products', but it might also involve a bit of 'slave labor' - at least for some of the assemblies and components. But... if you can get a working board design, then have some board shop make you a zillion of them and ship them to an assembly shop to insert components and wave-solder it, then ship you a completed board 'minus tubes', and also have someone else stamp out chassis and ship THEM to you, you could THEN hire a handful of people to bolt everything into place (about 10 minutes per amp, let's say), insert the tubes, run a final test, and crate 'em for shipping. I think you'd be able to compete with the 'low budget' people if you use a reasonable design (low cost + good performance) and decent quality components. As for developing custom board designs, I did a test run a few months back with a Canadian company that will do an overnight run of your board designs (in groups of 2) for (typically) under $100 (minimum order size 2) including the shipping (you just need gerber files and a credit card, upload via the web). Once the board's right you can have someone else make lots of them. Of course there are other board shops that do this, but I found them to be pretty easy to work with so I'll probably work with them again. The software I have doesn't have any tube socket layouts pre-done but a little work might yield 7 pin and 9 pin minis and octals. Might have to surface solder them due to 'round holes only'. Someone out there likely has the tube sockets 'ready to go'. Anyway, hand-wiring terminal strips is too old school for a modern amp. But you could actually have tube sockets exposed through a chassis to make it look like it's old-school point to point if you wanted to, and just use the boards to keep assembly costs down. FYI - did the board design and schematics with open source apps, 'PCB Designer' and 'gEDA' on a non-windows OS. |
#18
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/09/11 01:34, Patrick Turner so wittily quipped:
if there are 200 man hours in a chinese amp, ( 5 men working for a week ), the cost of wages is $128, and if materials in chinese prices are also $128, then total cost of production = $256,and if you double that for the profit made my whoever owns the chinese company, maybe the Chinese Communist Party, then the export price might be $512. you'd need a design where the cost of the components is the majority of YOUR cost, and it doesn't take 200 man hours to build. In fact, it shouldn't take more than 1 or 2 (and that includes MACHINE hours) implying "no point to point". Of course that means 'circuit board with parts soldered in place' as ONE of the 'components' that you'd assemble locally. A cost of $10 per finished board assembly (to you) is _NOT_ an unreasonable estimate (assuming volume is high enough). Anyway, at that point the cost of parts will be 90% of the cost of the unit. The rest will be the 10 minutes or so it would take a tech to bolt it together, solder a small number of wires, plug in the tubes, do a final test, and box it. And if you had pre-fab cables that plug together "already soldered to the board" you could plug them into each other, save time and $. Anyway, you might prefer soldering a few extra interconnecting wires yourself, to avoid connector issues (or have the boards ship with 'pigtails' already tinned to make that part easy). But that takes more time. 30 seconds per wire, maybe? Anyway, all of that needs capital, so I hope you know a rich guy who likes tube amps. |
#19
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/08/11 05:58, NX211 so wittily quipped:
On May 8, 7:32 am, John L StewartJohn.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now& then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart Any good audio engineer can make a transistor sound like a tube but one thing they can't do is make a transistor glow like a tube. That my friend is the answer. glowy bottles look cool, especially power tubes with that blue glow. almost like a little nuke reactor. heh. |
#20
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/09/11 21:36, flipper so wittily quipped:
but at the end of the day if there are 200 man hours in a chinese amp, ( 5 men working for a week ), the cost of wages is $128, and if materials in chinese prices are also $128, then total cost of production = $256,and if you double that for the profit made my whoever owns the chinese company, maybe the Chinese Communist Party, then the export price might be $512. All ridiculous assumptions, not to mention the cost of doing business is more than simply COGS. my point was that the design would determine how many man hours you need. there are really a LOT of variables in the cost of manufacturing something. mfg engineers get paid HUGE bucks to figure out inexpensive ways of building something (without compromising quality even). But if you can have it all done via automation, so much the better. Then the assembly production costs can become "COGS" eh? Final assembly and test would take very little time for a reasonably experienced tech. |
#21
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 10, 2:10*pm, flipper wrote: And you
could 'afford' them at twice the current price too. But would you 'like' paying twice as much? Price "mechanisms" are accepted without us big rich fat cats feeling the slightest guilt about what we pay because it is assumed the seller is happy with the price he's offering you. I'm no 'fat cat', there is no "price mechanism" in free trade, and no one is holding a gun to the seller's head. I never said YOU were, but the West has people with the biggest waistlines. Free trade? every time people in our goverment try to discuss free trade with the USA they come up against a pile of obstructive trade practices and we can't export a lotta stuff to the US. There is very little real free trade; more like expensive and un- free. Of course there are happy slaves around the world and the USA was full of them until they abolished slavery around the time they had a civil war where a million men perished. Slavery is not free trade nor is 150 years ago relevant. Amnesty International might disagree with you.... Here in Oz, we probably had some happy convicts who'd been transported under duress from Brittain by the King of England and used as cheap labour everywhere. Our native blacks here were shot, poisoned, and treated like scum and no doubt some may have been happy to work as cowboys rounding up the cattle, but at wages far below "white fella pay". But we didn't have a civil war, maybe the worst that happened were a few pub brawls, and maybe two Labour Party meetings where a few chairs were broken after a rowdy night deciding what workers should do to give unified opposition to the Association Of Fat Arsed Bosses who always tried to keep Mr Little poor. Maybe you should try free trade. I'd like to, but conditions are rigged against me. I am not a rabid socialist who wants the lazy unproductive anarchy of East Germany or Russia or Cambodia etc where people get trambled down by others who think they are "more equal than anyone else". The hell you aren't.. You just claim you'd be more righteous and benevolent in your dictatorship. I AM NOT A SOCIALIST. I just believe in equal human rights. Socialism has been proven not to work in most parts of the world because human nature is more greedy than it is altruistic. I am a capitalist, in muy own very small way. Of course, that's what Mussolini, Hitler, Staling, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Kim Jong-il and all the rest said. Give us power and it'll be a workers' paradise. Give us some money and we'll all get rich. Delete all the controls on banks, yippee. Well, then the GFC happened, delivered personally by rabid capitalists. Fact is there is good and bad about capcitalism and socialism. I believe in Oz we have a good mix of the two. And its a reason why communism never got a foothold in Oz; people had it so good, and they could see what was wrong with Russia and China and eastern Europe. Sure, some were sorely tempted, but after Russia invaded Hungary the zest went right out of the Australian Communist Party. I was never a member. But all men are just blokes, and all women are just sheilas and once somebody is born anywhere in the world they should have equal rights, oppportunity, freedoms and equal duties of care to others, which means they are prepared to work not bludge, and not try un-ethical means to derive income without raising a sweat. And just how much do you 'sweat' soldering an amplifier together? Quite a bit on a hot day in my shed in mid-summer. Certainly not as much as your ditch digger comrade, comrade. My ditch digger? whooze zat? Interesting to hear that your knowledge of how to build them is worthless, though. Yeah, I have no secrets. People are welcome to what I know. There's been 100MB a day average download from my site for the last 6 years. Somebody values what I say. I heard all this communist crap from the horses' mouth when I was in China. Those who are rich should see to it that those who are poor may pull themselves up to us; If an african breaks a leg, he should be able to get to a doctor in a clean hospital and not have to bribe anyone, or pay $1,200 a month for medical insurance. And you'll send in the storm troopers should anyone disobey. Sieg Heil. I am into fairness, the direct opposite of what Hitler promoted. Unfortunately, while everyone in the West likes to think how ****in marvellous they are there isn't much chance that Western human nature will ever insist on paying the Chinese the same price for something made in the West. There is no need to 'insist'. The free market sets price. The West is in a mad greedy scramble where the rich get richer yey they never have enough None of your business. It ain't your money and you ain't dictator. No, but we are all on this Planet together, so it oughtto be shared out equally. It means you should not take more than your share of the cake on the table. The Rich hate being told they have too much when all they wanna do is get richer. Nothing is enough. Its a fenzy....and crazy and wrong. and they like to see others NOT doing so well as themselves because that boosts their cherished picture of their own grandness. It's irrelevant what they 'like to see'. Anyone who makes a better mousetrap gets to sell the better mousetrap. Not if the market can be rigged to make the inferior trap sell better and destroy the guy who tried to make a better one. *Of course rich countries can go astray and become obsessed by all sorts of things such as maintaining influence and control over foreign countries. The more they do it, the more it costs, and it can send a rich country broke. Nobody wants to know. All sorts of crap reasons are trotted out. Its a long turgid story. Empires come, empires go. Speak for yourself. You're the one praying at the alter of dictating wages and prices, not I. Yes and its always the rich wage earners who complain about wage fixing because usually it means a wage reduction. But if the fix means a wage increase they don't mind a bit. I should be able to open a factory to make tube amps here just as easily as I could anywhere else, but it is not so. A bloke here runs a small business selling music amps, electric guitars, all sorts of stuff to the "music industry." *He found bigger shops who established themselves 50 years ago ganged up to prevent him getting supplies of Fenders and Marshalls from importers. Oh how people hate fair competition! *Anyway, this new local fella's response was to go straight over to China and have tube amps and guitars made there by Mr Sixty Four Cents An Hour. The guys in China were happy to see him, and they produce a pile of generic crap that feeds out to the world all over. We have laws against collusion and price fixing because that is not a free market. Maybe you folks should try the same. Ha, collusion abounds despite laws. Unfortunately, we also have a President who thinks he can dictate to companies where to manufacturing plants but that's another story. You'd love him. Obama would probably make a nice Prime Minister of Oz. He wouldn't have to reform the health system if he came here becasue it was all done years ago and I don't have to pay a cent for hospital treatments. No $1,200 per mth for insurance premiums either. Yeah, just where companies place factories could be government business. People's lives are affected. People vote for other people to do something to make life better, and that may include telling companies what they can and can't do. And our fella here gets his own name put on the Chinese stuff he imports. Once here in Oz, its sold at many times the Chinese ex factory price. Good for him. Maybe someone else will get the idea too. I don't really care because I feel no desire to manufacture junk for the music industry ,guitar amps and so forth. They'll always be repair work though. There is NO established repair agent or product support. The young kids here trying to learn how to be rock stars buy all this stuff on their apprentice or junior worker wages. So you say it's a 'bad thing' they can afford it. Its good they can afford it, but it ain't so good there isn't the product support like it may have been like in old times. But support isn't a huge need now because the broken product is often fixed by buying a new one. Are these kids mindful of their Chinese brothers whose apprentice wage was maybe 10c an hour and whose prospects of being a pop star are zip. What on earth is going through the minds of kids who want to be rock stars? Whoever thinks of the Mexicans making Fenders? If you think putting those Chinese workers out of a job is 'helping them' then have at it. I want to see everone who wants to work able to get work - but with equal pay world wide. It means the Chinese worker just like the USA worker should get equal pay for equal work and equal standard of living, ie, the price of bread is the same both countries. Its never going to be though, I know that. I'm allowed to say what is fair, even though human nature won't budge. Anyway, its very easy to see why a questioned existance poses far more questions than answers, and hence the need for a stable supply of container fulls of anti-depressant pills. Unrest among young minds is well known, and hence a proportion of them find solace in far stronger meds whose origin are the poppy fields of Afghanistan, where you guessed it, the West is at war with some locals. Well, let's see. So far you've claimed the unthinking ignorance of youth is wisdom, Gee, did I say that? Don't think I did, but youth isn't too wise, street wise maybe, but hey, there's a lotta dumb yongans out there and they don't wanna study nothin.t mind altering drugs are a wonderful thing, we shouldn't be 'interfering' with the Afghan drug trade, and the foreign Taliban are 'locals'. Well Taliban sem to be native to that part of the world. They ain't Martians. I don't like em. Just look how they treat shielas - like rubbish. Anyway, Taliban + drugs = money for somebody, and money corrupts, and maybe after spending another trillion or two the US might just persuade the Afghanies to quit grwing poppies to destroy the minds of US kids and to adopt good old american knowhow with a McDonalds on the corner. But rather than spend so much money and still lose, methinks someone will have to make a deal with Taliban, and I think it will happen if they can be seen to be solving the problem, ie, quitting Afghanistan. Does anyone really think the locals will hand over their country to foreigners? In Iraq, the idea was to spend 5 billion of US taxpayer money to knock out Saddam and then private enterprize would corner the oil. 20 billion would be invested over 20 years and oh how the money would roll in. Well, look how it reallt turned out. The US taxpayer got shafted. Dubbya did it. But in the US they have well oiled printing presses and they know how to make a dollar! Let me know if you ever visit earth. But I like to question everything I can and its net effect prevents depression. That farcical claim is getting old. You should start a Farcebook account. It sure prevented me leading an entirely pointless existance while trying to become richer than most other people on the Planet. One could argue that by agreeing to pay a smiling Chinese person 64c an hour, we are denying him his part of the Planet to which he is entitled. One could also 'argue' that Elvis is still alive but that doesn't make it any more rational than the nonsensical notion if you don't buy Chinese products you're going to 'help' the then unemployed worker. We sure are supporting a huge network of middle men. Yeah, like all the people employed in transporting goods and those selling goods, to name but a few. But, what the hell, lets put them out of work too. Well, if everyone was like me the world economy would go broke overnight. I ain't got any money. I hardlywant anything. If the shops just had what i wanted, they'd only need to be 1/40 of their size. We are all lucky everyone else wants far more than I want. People are busy everywhere. But just where we are heading ultimately, and how fair things are is what is questionable. I always feel slightly guilty when I buy underpants. But nobody on Oz makes any. No wonder at $27 an hour. Well, it might take a girl sewing undies to do it in 3 minutes, and her labour is worth $1.35. But garments ARE sewn up here by women often working for far far less than $27 per hour, more like $5, so the garment cost is almost nothing no matter where its made. The shop price is so much higher than the cost of production. But unless the shops and manufacturers can make the huge profits they fade away from business. *I'm too lazy to make my own, even though I have a sewing machine. And if I tried, the cloth itself would be from China, and maybe cost more than if already made into underpants by a Chinese Shiela working 10hrs a day at 40c an hour. The Sheila can go to the other company paying twice as much. Oh, wait, no she can't because China doesn't do free trade. Its un-free trade. And the next factory along won't pay twice the wage of the other one. All the owners and managers of the factories in a given town all know who gets what, and its impossible to improve one's pay by factory hopping. Its always been like this in most places where factories have peppered the landscape. So when are you planning to invade? Did I say THAT? But a couple of weeks ago I walked around the City to look in all the mensware stores for a black skivy. I wanted long arms, polo neck, all cotton, plain black. At K-mart, you could get a red one for $10. ( 60c ex China ), but no black. "Red China." Indeed, Chinese Communist Party control of Chinese Capitalism. Deng said, "To grow rich is glorious" All that Mao insisted upon became passe'. The up-market menswear stores with pretentious decor thought I may have been a bank robber looking for clobber, especially after I derided them for trying to flog me a "Made In Italy" brand of skivy at a knock down discount price of only $330. Made for $27 an hour, no doubt. I dunno what wages are in Italy. But cheap black skivies are not sold much because blokes buy them rather than buy a couple of shirts and a tie and a new suit which would make me look like Mr Pretentious. Maybe an online store will have WHAT I WANT, which isn't much, really. *At least by shopping online I don't make quite so many middle men rich, but I can't arrange for the worker in China to get an extra dollar for their child's education - too many grasping hands are in the way. You can't dictate to China no matter what and 'middle men' have not one blessed thing to do with it. The middle men have a lot to do with what you pay for goods and services, and their effect on prices ppl might pay for Chinese mades is enormous. A soldering iron costing 50c from China sells for $20 in a hardware store. If it fails in a month, the shop replaces it without argument because it cost them virtually nothing. I been there done that twice in two months. Patrick Turner. |
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I'm a Jeffersonian constitutional republican who believes in free will
and free trade but I'm not dumb enough to think it'll 'help' Chinese workers to put them out of a job. Yet all thse ****wit know-alls try to tell us the Chinese are giving us a mighty raw deal They are in dictating wages, price controls, and currency manipulation, to name but a few. yet they are doing what we refuse to do. hogswallop Just imagine if the Chinese quit exporting cheap underpants and gadgets. Your standard of living would plummet. As opposed to going bankrupt? Patrick Turner.[/quote] Seems T Jefferson had his very own slaves. Guess that is a form of 'free trade'. Cheers, John |
#23
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 11, 11:01*am, flipper wrote:
....... snip a lot which I feel no need to argue with...., The most abusive form of 'social engineering' is when groups argue, put in simple terms, "you have money, we want it, so we take it," using government as the source of enabling power. The founding fathers of the United States, and other liberals of the era, called this organized theft. Socialists, who falsely claim to be 'liberals' because socialism has a bad reputation, argue that the one with money "owes" it to those who don't and use government power to 'enforce payment', aka "redistribution of wealth," arguably as a means of bribery to power. Despite all the good will expressed in the Constitution of the USA, many terms used to express how society conduct itself, rule its citizens and fund itself for the common good are rather rubbery, and as anyone might tell you, rules are made to be broken, or at least bent, twisted, warped, convoluted, trans-mogified, modified, ammended, or outlawed. Just consider QUOTE :- "you have money, we want it, so we take it," using government as the source of enabling power. The founding fathers of the United States, and other liberals of the era, called this organized theft. UNQUOTE. From this idea came those who saw fit to describe all government expense out of taxes collected as theft, and in the 1970s I saw ppl with stickers on car bumper bars and back of motorcycle helmets with "Taxation is Theft" . Anyway, usually there is little agreement about how taxes are to be imposed on money flow, or wealth flow in any economy so that all may benefit. Usually the ****in rich hate being taxed, and perceive that their higher % of income tax is unfair because they are effectively being expected to financially support those poorer than themselves. The ****in rich always want more andf ****in more and MORE, and less and less government "interference" in the form of taxes, financial regulation and environmental laws. The ****in rich want to put their competitors out of business, send 'em broke, so only they may flourish. The ****in rich fund the media to get the population to agree with them; effectively, the Rich tell the poor, "eat this **** sandwich, its delicious" or they give messages like "buy, buy, buy more and more from us because it'll make youse 'appy" But the taste, like the price is sour, and the happiness gained is a myth, and people soon find themselves on a treadmill of paying off never ending debts. IMHO, there is nothing at all sacred about Big Business which seeks to be a sacred cow, but tells lies to convey how wonderful they are and how transparent all their dealings are. ( BP in the gulf ? ) All governments are Social Experiments, some more successful than others, depending who you are, what you are, and your social status. Equality of status and opportunity and equity is a myth in most societies no matter what their constitution says. On the other side of the coin, unionists can also be a bunch of ****s to deal with when they try to raise earnings while lessening productivity. One might say environmentalists can also be a BOCTDW when they try to hold up industrial projects or regulate industry. Winston Churchill once said "Democracy is a terrible thing, until you consider the alternative." But even the mild mannered polite Brittish OK'd the bombing of Dresden. There are many still recovering from bites on their arse from Thatcher. Healthy discussions of gripes and troubles and rights and wrongs are quite good tonic instead of secret police with jails full of ppl disagreeing with Our Dear Leader, a la Nth Korea. Unfortunately, Dear Leaders around the world are slow to catch on about what ppl want - freedom of the press, separation of powers, no corruption, fairness, equal equity, equal opportunity, and equal wages and equal shopping opportunities. That's only for starters. Gaddaffi is finding outabout it now. At the moment, seems like Consumerism has replaced Communism. Consumerism is now catching on everywhere around the world and unfortunately we need 6 planet fulls of resources to keep everyone happy with a north american lifestyle. The alternative would be to seriously reduce the standard of living expectations in rich western nations, but have everyone raise real standards to an equal level, and thus make do with the One and Only PLanet we find ourselves upon. We seem to have Peak Oil, yet we face a huge population increase and vast increase in wish lists, ie, expectational increase while sea levels are rising 3mm a year. Economists will tell you that the one shortage of supply that the world will never experience is a shortage of demand. The more we get connected, Farcing on Farcebook, ****tering on ****ter, the bigger becomes our sense of self importance and desire for more and more meaningless aquistion of stuff. We head into an unknown area if we all ignore history. I guess the markets will decide what happens over the next 50 years, if some jolly humdinger big fat wars don't. Whatever happens, it'll never be over, things are never solved or resolved. Knowing that uncertainty is so damn certain, and that unknown un- knowables abound, its easier to be happy and not worry, if you can make it to next year without insanity and neurosis in spending habits sending you broke. You can survive well if you reject the message pedalled by the rich. For me, "Putting on the Agony, Putting on the Style" has no meaning. This was a title of a folk song written during the Californian gold rush days of about 1860. Personally, I like to pedal around on a bicycle, and I don't know how to use a mobile phone. Patrick Turner. |
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Answer Yes, No or Maybe & give reasons why in 50 words or less. John |
#25
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
* It may have been the liquor talking, but
John L Stewart wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John -- John L Stewart I'm not particularly attached to *tubes* as I am to my tube amp, whose musical qualities have thus far prevented me from buying any other amp (including SS), for fear it will not be as good. I am not one of those who 'collects' amps - one at a time for me! The only part of the technology I don't like is the heat, which in the summer can be a problem. That is why I am considering getting a SS low powered amp for especially hot days. If it is an improvement over my tube amp, all the better. *R* *H* -- Powered by Linux |/ 2.6.32.26-175 Fedora 12 "No spyware. No viruses. No nags." |/ 2.6.31.12-0.2 OpenSUSE 11.2 http://www.catholicscomehome.org |/Mutt 1.5.21 slrn 0.9.9p1 Irssi 0.8.15 "Preach the gospel always; when necessary use words." St. Francis |
#26
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
* It may have been the liquor talking, but
Patrick Turner wrote: On May 8, 10:39Â*pm, Tabby wrote: On May 8, 12:32Â*pm, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John Age doesn't determine quality, it more determines price. There are still some very good amplifiers from the 1950s about, like Quad II and similar. IMHO, Quad-II has a quite parsimonious amount amount of "very good" in it. It is one of the poorest mass made amplifiers ever foisted upon the public. But so were many others from 1950, Most mass makers were reluctant to make gear which compares well to what we can do with tubes now. The car industry also produced attrocious cars in 1950. nearly everything you bought was butcherd quality, or quality watered down. In 1955, everyone complained about cars rusting from the inside out while also wearing out rather too soon. Peter Walker didn't get famous because of his amps. He became famous for his electrostatic speakers. The Chinese make Quad amps now and has tried to make them better, but the Quad 40 has many shortcomings; they just don't get it. Things have not changed, the vast majority of stuff for sale is what I never want to own. And the fact that slave labour in China makes it for almost nothing so that when its sold in Oz after rapacious shop owners here sell it at 20 times the Chinese factory gate price, I still don't want it. The Chinese can make good underpants and plastic reader glasses, but not tube amps. I also get many solid state amps coming in for repairs, and made badly. There are differences between valve and transistor amps' sound quality, both have their pros and cons, and some people much prefer valve. Indeed. Both forms of amps should measure well at normal listening levels. I've heard some tube amps which don't, and they don't sound so good, and often its because the makers have NO IDEA about how to design anything. I have had to totally re-wire a lot of brandname amps because of the ignorance of the makers. Much tube gear is complete rubbish and the prooduct of minds that were merely greedy, and they peddle crap in an entrepreneuring effort which is a complete con job. Many people have more money than good sense let alone any ability to tell what really sounds well and slick promotion efforts get sales of rubbsh. Some people woud gladly eat a **** sandwich if they are told how ****in marvellous the sandwich is and shown how wonderful the sandwich looks. But I raise my hat to the **** producers of the world. I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. NT Patrick Turner. I own a Chinese made amp (designed in America), and it sounds delightful. I'm not willing to pay double for an equivalent amp made in the USA. *R* *H* -- Powered by Linux |/ 2.6.32.26-175 Fedora 12 "No spyware. No viruses. No nags." |/ 2.6.31.12-0.2 OpenSUSE 11.2 http://www.catholicscomehome.org |/Mutt 1.5.21 slrn 0.9.9p1 Irssi 0.8.15 "Preach the gospel always; when necessary use words." St. Francis |
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Just trying to get a handle on your politics. Me thinks you are watching & listening to FOX NEWS too much. Do you ever watch PBS or listen to NPR to get the other side on the news? Diversity of opinion is a factor that makes us as a people successful. We can't all be at the far right. Gets too damned crowded. You will never win the debate with the honorable gentleman from Her Majesties Republic of Aus. And don't need to. I still like your tube stuff & that is what should be on this forum. There are probably other places where you can discuss Geo W Bush & A Hitler. BTW, America today ain't what the Founding Fathers intended. It seems like you have 'Jumped the Shark' & now on the decent. Cheers, John |
#28
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 13, 1:01*pm, flipper wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2011 00:35:40 -0700, Big Bad Bob wrote: On 05/08/11 20:48, flipper so wittily quipped: I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. Until such time as you build and sell 'real performance' for the same or less price as the alleged 'crap' you're just an elitist curmudgeon. there may be a way to build the 'real performance' stuff AND compete with the 'crap products', Maybe or maybe not but that isn't the point. The point is Patrick doesn't have a clue how to design and manufacture a product for the mass market. Patrick has a very clear idea about how to design and manufacture a product for the mass market. But he doesn't want to, because he sees it is an excellent recipe for him to lose all his possessions and become a bankrupt. He'd have to get venture capital, and remove the quality like the others do to compete, and investors won't invest unless you give them everything you have in case you go broke, and the history of tube amp makers shows so many manufacturer wannabes have gone broke. Patrick is aware Chinese labour costs are 64c per hour or therabouts, and he knows he'd have to get stuff made in China to compete. Patrick is sensible, and knows the risks, and is also 64, and he doesn't plan to dive into terribly risky ventures producing niche retro mass mades with serious entreprenurial schemes using his own money; one must use only other people's money, and be 30 with nothing to lose, so the hard work of making things happen can be done. Which is not a criticism, per see, because most people don't and it wouldn't be a problem if he didn't go around pontificating as if he did. Are, but there you go trying to copy the Pope, who pontificates at the Vatican..... Patrick Turner. |
#29
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 9, 1:00*am, Patrick Turner wrote:
On May 8, 10:39*pm, Tabby wrote: On May 8, 12:32*pm, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John Age doesn't determine quality, it more determines price. There are still some very good amplifiers from the 1950s about, like Quad II and similar. IMHO, Quad-II has a quite parsimonious amount amount of "very good" in it. It is one of the poorest mass made amplifiers ever foisted upon the public. But so were many others from 1950, Most mass makers were reluctant to make gear which compares well to what we can do with tubes now. The car industry also produced attrocious cars in 1950. nearly everything you bought was butcherd quality, or quality watered down. In 1955, everyone complained about cars rusting from the inside out while also wearing out rather too soon. Peter Walker didn't get famous because of his amps. He became famous for his electrostatic speakers. The Chinese make Quad amps now and has tried to make them better, but the Quad 40 has many shortcomings; they just don't get it. Things have not changed, the vast majority of stuff for sale is what I never want to own. And the fact that slave labour in China makes it for almost nothing so that when its sold in Oz after rapacious shop owners here sell it at 20 times the Chinese factory gate price, I still don't want it. The Chinese can make good underpants and plastic reader glasses, but not tube amps. I also get many solid state amps coming in for repairs, and made badly. There are differences between valve and transistor amps' sound quality, both have their pros and cons, and some people much prefer valve. Indeed. Both forms of amps should measure well at normal listening levels. I've heard some tube amps which don't, and they don't sound so good, and often its because the makers have NO IDEA about how to design anything. I have had to totally re-wire a lot of brandname amps because of the ignorance of the makers. Much tube gear is complete rubbish and the prooduct of minds that were merely greedy, and they peddle crap in an entrepreneuring effort which is a complete con job. Many people have more money than good sense let alone any ability to tell what really sounds well and slick promotion efforts get sales of rubbsh. Some people woud gladly eat a **** sandwich if they are told how ****in marvellous the sandwich is and shown how wonderful the sandwich looks. But I raise my hat to the **** producers of the world. I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. * NT Patrick Turner. So which valve amps do you like? NT |
#30
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/12/11 19:48, flipper so wittily quipped:
There are many still recovering from bites on their arse from Thatcher. What were they doing sticking their arses up her nose? Exactly. I believe Margaret Thatcher was a great world leader. She and Ronald Reagan helped make the world a better place, by bringing about the policies and economic boon that ended Soviet communism. I wish more people saw it that way... |
#31
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 14, 3:33*am, Tabby wrote:
On May 9, 1:00*am, Patrick Turner wrote: On May 8, 10:39*pm, Tabby wrote: On May 8, 12:32*pm, John L Stewart John.L.Stewart. wrote: anterm;930852 Wrote: Some audiophiles say that the sound quality in vacuum tubes is better, but I fail to see why, especially since vacuum tube electronics is an older technology Same odd reason some people prefer to ride a horse now & then! Not difficult to come up with many other examples. John Age doesn't determine quality, it more determines price. There are still some very good amplifiers from the 1950s about, like Quad II and similar. IMHO, Quad-II has a quite parsimonious amount amount of "very good" in it. It is one of the poorest mass made amplifiers ever foisted upon the public. But so were many others from 1950, Most mass makers were reluctant to make gear which compares well to what we can do with tubes now. The car industry also produced attrocious cars in 1950. nearly everything you bought was butcherd quality, or quality watered down. In 1955, everyone complained about cars rusting from the inside out while also wearing out rather too soon. Peter Walker didn't get famous because of his amps. He became famous for his electrostatic speakers. The Chinese make Quad amps now and has tried to make them better, but the Quad 40 has many shortcomings; they just don't get it. Things have not changed, the vast majority of stuff for sale is what I never want to own. And the fact that slave labour in China makes it for almost nothing so that when its sold in Oz after rapacious shop owners here sell it at 20 times the Chinese factory gate price, I still don't want it. The Chinese can make good underpants and plastic reader glasses, but not tube amps. I also get many solid state amps coming in for repairs, and made badly. There are differences between valve and transistor amps' sound quality, both have their pros and cons, and some people much prefer valve. Indeed. Both forms of amps should measure well at normal listening levels. I've heard some tube amps which don't, and they don't sound so good, and often its because the makers have NO IDEA about how to design anything. I have had to totally re-wire a lot of brandname amps because of the ignorance of the makers. Much tube gear is complete rubbish and the prooduct of minds that were merely greedy, and they peddle crap in an entrepreneuring effort which is a complete con job. Many people have more money than good sense let alone any ability to tell what really sounds well and slick promotion efforts get sales of rubbsh. Some people woud gladly eat a **** sandwich if they are told how ****in marvellous the sandwich is and shown how wonderful the sandwich looks. But I raise my hat to the **** producers of the world. I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. * NT Patrick Turner. So which valve amps do you like? NT- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Not many. Patrick Turner. |
#32
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 10, 4:09*am, Big Bad Bob BigBadBob-at-mrp3-
wrote: On 05/09/11 21:36, flipper so wittily quipped: but at the end of the day if there are 200 man hours in a chinese amp, ( 5 men working for a week ), the cost of wages is $128, and if materials in chinese prices are also $128, then total cost of production = $256,and if you double that for the profit made my whoever owns the chinese company, maybe the Chinese Communist Party, then the export price might be $512. All ridiculous assumptions, not to mention the cost of doing business is more than simply COGS. my point was that the design would determine how many man hours you need. *there are really a LOT of variables in the cost of manufacturing something. *mfg engineers get paid HUGE bucks to figure out inexpensive ways of building something (without compromising quality even). *But if you can have it all done via automation, so much the better. *Then the assembly production costs can become "COGS" eh? *Final assembly and test would take very little time for a reasonably experienced tech. Bob, I like your comments... there's a core truth here and it would be nice to see someone try to bring this type of manufacturing back to North America, in particular back to Ontario, Canada, where I promote such a manufacturing revival in my professional engineering volunteer work. I actually retired as VP Engineering from a profitable Toronto company that still manufactures specialized instrumentation here and sells it world wide. One minor quibble... manufacturing engineers (ME's) here are not paid "HUGE bucks", they get about the same as other salaried professionals, and it's taxed at rates up to some 46% on the last dollar (very few of them!), with most ME's at about the 39% marginal rate. Cheers, Roger |
#33
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On May 16, 3:25*am, Engineer wrote:
On May 10, 4:09*am, Big Bad Bob BigBadBob-at-mrp3- wrote: On 05/09/11 21:36, flipper so wittily quipped: but at the end of the day if there are 200 man hours in a chinese amp, ( 5 men working for a week ), the cost of wages is $128, and if materials in chinese prices are also $128, then total cost of production = $256,and if you double that for the profit made my whoever owns the chinese company, maybe the Chinese Communist Party, then the export price might be $512. All ridiculous assumptions, not to mention the cost of doing business is more than simply COGS. my point was that the design would determine how many man hours you need. *there are really a LOT of variables in the cost of manufacturing something. *mfg engineers get paid HUGE bucks to figure out inexpensive ways of building something (without compromising quality even). *But if you can have it all done via automation, so much the better. *Then the assembly production costs can become "COGS" eh? *Final assembly and test would take very little time for a reasonably experienced tech. Bob, I like your comments... there's a core truth here and it would be nice to see someone try to bring this type of manufacturing back to North America, in particular back to Ontario, Canada, where I promote such a manufacturing revival in my professional engineering volunteer work. *I actually retired as VP Engineering *from a profitable Toronto company that still manufactures specialized instrumentation here and sells it world wide. One minor quibble... manufacturing engineers (ME's) here are not paid "HUGE bucks", they get about the same as other salaried professionals, and it's taxed at rates up to some 46% on the last dollar (very few of them!), with most ME's at about the 39% marginal rate. Cheers, Roger- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - someone mentioned " ...it would be nice to see someone try to bring this type of manufacturing back..." Maybe its too late for the Reformation Of America. Patrick Turner. |
#34
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/12/11 20:26, flipper so wittily quipped:
On Tue, 10 May 2011 01:09:06 -0700, Big Bad Bob wrote: On 05/09/11 21:36, flipper so wittily quipped: but at the end of the day if there are 200 man hours in a chinese amp, ( 5 men working for a week ), the cost of wages is $128, and if materials in chinese prices are also $128, then total cost of production = $256,and if you double that for the profit made my whoever owns the chinese company, maybe the Chinese Communist Party, then the export price might be $512. All ridiculous assumptions, not to mention the cost of doing business is more than simply COGS. my point That reply was to Patrick, not you. heh, sometimes hard for me to follow. was that the design would determine how many man hours you need. there are really a LOT of variables in the cost of manufacturing something. mfg engineers get paid HUGE bucks to figure out inexpensive ways of building something (without compromising quality even). But if you can have it all done via automation, so much the better. Then the assembly production costs can become "COGS" eh? COGS depends a lot on how one does the accounting. Like, for one, whether R&D is amortized into the product cost or overhead margin, often a combination of both. My point was similar to your "there are really a LOT of variables" and that simply adding up some parts costs and assembly labor doesn't begin to paint the picture. yep. being in the manufacturing sector (at various levels) helps you understand that. For one, it leaves out the entire financial, legal, and regulatory departments dedicated to sifting through the bazillion regulations socialists love to impose on everything and, of course, the ever changing 'screw you' tax laws. don't forget potential patent infringement and international regulations and requirements for exported products (like ROHS for one). There are a number of businesses oriented around getting 'approval stickers' on your product. Look on a laptop power supply some time and all of those logos (UL, ROHS, etc.) involve some company testing your product or reviewing the manufacturing process (or both). From what I can tell, Chinese manufacturers seem to have streamlined this process somewhat, so when you outsource your manufacturing to them you can set up a 'package deal' pretty fast and get all of the logos with it for an up-front fee. Overhead costs can easily be more than the product, especially in niche markets. Final assembly and test would take very little time for a reasonably experienced tech. And what are you going to do with the faulty ones? Scrap or repair? scrap is probably faster, if the cost is low, but testing and rework is more likely since you could swap out the faulty component. But what you have to do is set the process up to be foolproof: Board(s) + tubes + transformers + chassis + front panel assembly + case with associated screws, washers, insulated binding posts, crimp connectors, and so on. Each component sent to you would either be pre-tested or process verified, like if you bought them from directly from hammond or similar, so the likelihood of fallouts is pretty small. If you can't get it below 1%, you're probably NOT going to do well, and that's easily achievable nowadays. "Final test" would involve a warmup, a test signal, and a dummy load, possibly run by computer (so the tech just plugs it in). If the board is bad, you swap out the board, then tubes can be individually tested or you could use a test point on the board and a 'special test unit' (computer driven - or someone like me could program a microcontroller to do it for ya). Anyway, that's how things are usually done by companies that are profitable. That's not a simple choice, nor is the choice of when to do testing, or how long (aka burn in). You could have 2 stations per employee for testing, and rotate the devices in. That would give you at least 10 minutes per device to run a series of standard tests on it, and you would randomly take 1 of 'xx' units out for more stringent testing by a reasonably trained tech. Those costs have to be rolled in too. And how many do you predict will be returned? Damaged in shipment? Are you insured? heh, yeah, these are all factors. Normally you would initially make assumptions based on gross margin percentage along with expected sales, and then you burden the costs with 'standard values' based on normal business practices (this would be presented to the board of directors and potential investors), then add in your fixed costs and so on. So yeah, this would be part of the 'sell the business' end of it. After a time you would adjust your costs based on actual rather than 'estimated' values. 'One man band' shops could (instead) grow slowly, doing the work yourself at first, then hiring people as your sales grow. It's not easy starting a business these days. yeah, no kidding. fortunately you can't eat an amplifier. and let's not forget, Oregon is further left than California. |
#35
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/15/11 10:25, Engineer so wittily quipped:
On May 10, 4:09 am, Big Bad BobBigBadBob-at-mrp3- wrote: On 05/09/11 21:36, flipper so wittily quipped: but at the end of the day if there are 200 man hours in a chinese amp, ( 5 men working for a week ), the cost of wages is $128, and if materials in chinese prices are also $128, then total cost of production = $256,and if you double that for the profit made my whoever owns the chinese company, maybe the Chinese Communist Party, then the export price might be $512. All ridiculous assumptions, not to mention the cost of doing business is more than simply COGS. my point was that the design would determine how many man hours you need. there are really a LOT of variables in the cost of manufacturing something. mfg engineers get paid HUGE bucks to figure out inexpensive ways of building something (without compromising quality even). But if you can have it all done via automation, so much the better. Then the assembly production costs can become "COGS" eh? Final assembly and test would take very little time for a reasonably experienced tech. Bob, I like your comments... there's a core truth here and it would be nice to see someone try to bring this type of manufacturing back to North America, in particular back to Ontario, Canada, where I promote such a manufacturing revival in my professional engineering volunteer work. I actually retired as VP Engineering from a profitable Toronto company that still manufactures specialized instrumentation here and sells it world wide. One minor quibble... manufacturing engineers (ME's) here are not paid "HUGE bucks", they get about the same as other salaried professionals, and it's taxed at rates up to some 46% on the last dollar (very few of them!), with most ME's at about the 39% marginal rate. ouch on the tax rates! seriously, though, in cases where the engineer regularly saves millions of dollars per year in manufacturing costs, he will be very well compensated (or else someone ELSE will get his services). Or at least an M.E. will earn several more times the salary of someone on an assembly line. 'Huge Bucks' is somewhat relative. Point taken anyway. kudos on the VP eng position, by the way. that's pretty good. |
#36
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/12/11 20:01, flipper so wittily quipped:
On Tue, 10 May 2011 00:35:40 -0700, Big Bad Bob wrote: On 05/08/11 20:48, flipper so wittily quipped: I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. Until such time as you build and sell 'real performance' for the same or less price as the alleged 'crap' you're just an elitist curmudgeon. there may be a way to build the 'real performance' stuff AND compete with the 'crap products', Maybe or maybe not but that isn't the point. The point is Patrick doesn't have a clue how to design and manufacture a product for the mass market. yeah, that was pretty evident with the '100 man hours' part in the earlier post. Even with point to point wiring, it would only take about 20 to build an amp (my gross estimate), and that's soldering at MY speed (which isn't all that fast). Which is not a criticism, per see, because most people don't and it wouldn't be a problem if he didn't go around pontificating as if he did. yeah, but it does make for interesting follow-up discussions. The various expertise of those who chimed in might be enough to actually start something [who'd a thunk it?]. Now, where do I find the investors... /me volunteers as CFO even though I hate accounting |
#37
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Why are vacuum tubes still used in audio amplifiers instead ofsolid-state transistor
On 05/13/11 02:06, Patrick Turner so wittily quipped:
On May 13, 1:01 pm, wrote: On Tue, 10 May 2011 00:35:40 -0700, Big Bad Bob wrote: On 05/08/11 20:48, flipper so wittily quipped: I can then compete with the crap products by offering real performance. Until such time as you build and sell 'real performance' for the same or less price as the alleged 'crap' you're just an elitist curmudgeon. there may be a way to build the 'real performance' stuff AND compete with the 'crap products', Maybe or maybe not but that isn't the point. The point is Patrick doesn't have a clue how to design and manufacture a product for the mass market. Patrick has a very clear idea about how to design and manufacture a product for the mass market. excellent! But he doesn't want to, because he sees it is an excellent recipe for him to lose all his possessions and become a bankrupt. all things worth doing involve risk. corporations help minimize that. You become a corporate officer and stock holder. If your stock suddenly becomes worthless, that's all you lose (the value of the stock). You might have to get another job afterwards, but that's pretty much the end of it. He'd have to get venture capital, and remove the quality like the others do to compete I earlier suggested that quality doesn't have to compromise, and gave some examples on how to do it while still keeping costs down. and investors won't invest unless you give them everything you have in case you go broke well, if they own stock they each get a portion of the liquidation dollars (or 'sell the company' dollars) according to their shares, but yeah that's kind of how it works when they buy up part of the company and put money in to keep it running. and the history of tube amp makers shows so many manufacturer wannabes have gone broke. it is the same for most businesses. venture capital is high risk. I think 1 out of 3 actually "make it" to the point of profitability where the VCs get a return on their investment. The return potential is so high, though, that they continue to invest and make a profit. Patrick is aware Chinese labour costs are 64c per hour or therabouts, and he knows he'd have to get stuff made in China to compete. my suggestions is 'certain assemblies' but not "the whole kit & kaboodle" Patrick is sensible, and knows the risks, and is also 64, and he doesn't plan to dive into terribly risky ventures producing niche retro mass made with serious entreprenurial schemes using his own money; I'll accept that. (shooting others' attempts down, though, doesn't cut it with me - I've seen and been around too many people who are like that, always telling you why it CAN'T be done, etc.) one must use only other people's money unless you have your own capital available and be 30 with nothing to lose, so the hard work of making things happen can be done. Age is irrelevant (think young, be young). The 'nothing to lose' part is never applicable anyway (there is ALWAYS something to lose). No need to ever 'retire' in my book, so I'll go on tossing about ideas about starting businesses indefinitely, WAY past the age of 64, and maybe even do it (again) once or twice. I figure I'll work until I'm dead (I know this guy that's over 70, climbed Mt. Whitney a few years ago, and still works as a senior EE, though he admitted it was a 'cushy' job) or until I earn the classic 'F.U.' money (where you have SO much money you can tell the world 'F.U.'). then with 'F.U.' money I could run a business at a loss just for fun. |
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