[Powell]

I've been renting and borrowing lavaliere microphones.
They've all been poor fidelity performers. Now I would
like to purchase a pair for business and personal use.
They would need to operate in cold-wet environments
(camera XH-A1 or RME preamp). For the most part
(business) they need to excel in universal electrical
compliance (comparability) with other studio
mic-preamps. All uses are for the spoken word only.
My max budget is $1K. The two lav's I'm most
interested in are the Sanken COS-11 and TRAM
TR-50. I'd consider purchasing one of each if sonic
signature isn't readily apparent in production.
Thoughts?

[[email protected]]

On Sep 5, 10:17 am, "Powell" wrote:
I've been renting and borrowing lavaliere microphones.
They've all been poor fidelity performers. Now I would
like to purchase a pair for business and personal use.
They would need to operate in cold-wet environments
(camera XH-A1 or RME preamp). For the most part
(business) they need to excel in universal electrical
compliance (comparability) with other studio
mic-preamps. All uses are for the spoken word only.
My max budget is $1K. The two lav's I'm most
interested in are the Sanken COS-11 and TRAM
TR-50. I'd consider purchasing one of each if sonic
signature isn't readily apparent in production.
Thoughts?

What are the lavs you've tried and what do you consider poor about
their fidelity? Where were they placed with respect to the mouth?

Three mics I have experience with are the Cos-11, AT MT830 and AT892.
These are all very small diaphragm electrets so the self noise is
going to be higher than a larger mic such as a Schoeps CMC641. They
sound reasonable given their sizes. The AT892, being a headworn, puts
the mic in a much better position near the mouth and sounds much
better for the placement. Here is something to try: put ANY omni
microphone down on the chest under the chin and record. Then move the
same mic 8 to 12 inches out in front of the mouth just a little off
axis and record again. I bet the chest position sounds muffled
compared to in front of the mouth. That darn chin is getting in the
way.

bobs

Bob Smith
BS Studios
we organize chaos
http://www.bsstudios.com

[WillStG]

On Sep 5, 2:17 pm, "Powell" wrote:
I've been renting and borrowing lavaliere microphones.
They've all been poor fidelity performers. Now I would
like to purchase a pair for business and personal use.
They would need to operate in cold-wet environments
(camera XH-A1 or RME preamp). For the most part
(business) they need to excel in universal electrical
compliance (comparability) with other studio
mic-preamps. All uses are for the spoken word only.
My max budget is $1K. The two lav's I'm most
interested in are the Sanken COS-11 and TRAM
TR-50. I'd consider purchasing one of each if sonic
signature isn't readily apparent in production.
Thoughts?

Personally, I don't know why anybody uses Trams - except they're
flat profile. Most guys I know agree. The Sanken COS 11's sound
great, great reach maybe a bit bright, but have fragile wires and are
prone to grounding issues when the paint scrapes off, which mainly can
appear when you are using a couple of them on the same metal mic
clip. I like the flatter, fatter sounding Sennheiser ME102's. As I
recall they look about the same on frequency plots as the Senn "Mickey
2's" (MKE2's), but are smoother sounding in reality and sound better
off axis. And the DPA 4060's are wonderful sounding, but I wish they
still came with the steel cables for wires. Be careful about the
adapters you use, there are -10 pads intergral to some of the adpaters
and you have to make sure your suppliers gives you the right one. (We
couldn't figure out at ABC why the DPA's were lower in output than the
Sennheisers's, until I did a bit of tech reading....

You can easily get a pair of any of them for way under your
budget I think. I like the DPA's best for sound, but the ME102's are
probably a bit more durable.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Powell]

wrote

I've been renting and borrowing lavaliere microphones.
They've all been poor fidelity performers. Now I would
like to purchase a pair for business and personal use.
They would need to operate in cold-wet environments
(camera XH-A1 or RME preamp). For the most part
(business) they need to excel in universal electrical
compliance (comparability) with other studio
mic-preamps. All uses are for the spoken word only.
My max budget is $1K. The two lav's I'm most
interested in are the Sanken COS-11 and TRAM
TR-50. I'd consider purchasing one of each if sonic
signature isn't readily apparent in production.
Thoughts?

What are the lavs you've tried and what do you consider
poor about their fidelity?

Sony EMC-77, Shure MX185, SM11


Where were they placed with respect to the mouth?

Mostly shirt collar




The AT892, being a headworn, puts the mic in a much
better position near the mouth and sounds much better
for the placement.

I have a AKG C420 (head-set) a bit chunky for
indoor TV production but perhaps I should try it
outdoors (less obtrusive).

[Powell]

"WillStG" wrote

I've been renting and borrowing lavaliere microphones.
They've all been poor fidelity performers. Now I would
like to purchase a pair for business and personal use.
They would need to operate in cold-wet environments
(camera XH-A1 or RME preamp). For the most part
(business) they need to excel in universal electrical
compliance (comparability) with other studio
mic-preamps. All uses are for the spoken word only.
My max budget is $1K. The two lav's I'm most
interested in are the Sanken COS-11 and TRAM
TR-50. I'd consider purchasing one of each if sonic
signature isn't readily apparent in production.
Thoughts?

Personally, I don't know why anybody uses Trams - except they're
flat profile. Most guys I know agree. The Sanken COS 11's sound
great, great reach maybe a bit bright, but have fragile wires and are
prone to grounding issues when the paint scrapes off, which mainly can
appear when you are using a couple of them on the same metal mic
clip. I like the flatter, fatter sounding Sennheiser ME102's. As I
recall they look about the same on frequency plots as the Senn "Mickey
2's" (MKE2's), but are smoother sounding in reality and sound better
off axis. And the DPA 4060's are wonderful sounding, but I wish they
still came with the steel cables for wires. Be careful about the
adapters you use, there are -10 pads intergral to some of the adpaters
and you have to make sure your suppliers gives you the right one. (We
couldn't figure out at ABC why the DPA's were lower in output than the
Sennheisers's, until I did a bit of tech reading....

Thanks for the DPA referal... I'm researching them now.


You can easily get a pair of any of them for way under your
budget I think. I like the DPA's best for sound, but the ME102's are
probably a bit more durable.

So, COS-11 or DPA 4060 as your best pick? Are the sonic
signatures readily apparent between them or close enough
for straight editing?

[C[_2_]]

On Sep 5, 2:17 pm, "Powell" wrote:
I've been renting and borrowing lavaliere microphones.
They've all been poor fidelity performers. Now I would
like to purchase a pair for business and personal use.
They would need to operate in cold-wet environments
(camera XH-A1 or RME preamp). For the most part
(business) they need to excel in universal electrical
compliance (comparability) with other studio
mic-preamps. All uses are for the spoken word only.
My max budget is $1K. The two lav's I'm most
interested in are the Sanken COS-11 and TRAM
TR-50. I'd consider purchasing one of each if sonic
signature isn't readily apparent in production.
Thoughts?


If you have access to each use your ears to decide which one you like
best.....but just as important is how will they be used, outside the
closes, inside the cloths, what kind of cloths, indoors, outdoors, a
man, a woman, etc. Create the situation/environment then listen again.
If you like the Tram I'd recommend the Voice Technologies VT506 which
is the same style better sounding and closer to a Sanken and comes
with better built accessories.

C

[[email protected]]

On Sep 7, 2:52 pm, C wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:17 pm, "Powell" wrote:

I've been renting and borrowing lavaliere microphones.
They've all been poor fidelity performers. Now I would
like to purchase a pair for business and personal use.
They would need to operate in cold-wet environments
(camera XH-A1 or RME preamp). For the most part
(business) they need to excel in universal electrical
compliance (comparability) with other studio
mic-preamps. All uses are for the spoken word only.
My max budget is $1K. The two lav's I'm most
interested in are the Sanken COS-11 and TRAM
TR-50. I'd consider purchasing one of each if sonic
signature isn't readily apparent in production.
Thoughts?

If you have access to each use your ears to decide which one you like
best.....but just as important is how will they be used, outside the
closes, inside the cloths, what kind of cloths, indoors, outdoors, a
man, a woman, etc. Create the situation/environment then listen again.
If you like the Tram I'd recommend the Voice Technologies VT506 which
is the same style better sounding and closer to a Sanken and comes
with better built accessories.

C



I have both of these and a few other lav types. Matching a mic to a
voice and an environment is important w/ lavs as much as it is with
regular mics, some voices will sound terrible on one and fine on
another. How the mic reacts to the wardrobe it is attached to is
another factor. The Tram is not one of my faves anymore, but they are
still useful in some situations. The COS11 is a much newer design,
and much more expensive. They have more high end boost and sometimes
require less EQ when buried under clothing. However that high end
sensitivity sounds harsh to me on many voices. The COS11 can also
work very well as a plant mic. In addition to the DPA lavs, you might
want to test drive some Countryman mics as well, esp. the B6 and B3.

Philip Perkins

[WillStG]

On Sep 7, 12:05 am, "Powell" wrote:
"WillStG" wrote



I've been renting and borrowing lavaliere microphones.
They've all been poor fidelity performers. Now I would
like to purchase a pair for business and personal use.
They would need to operate in cold-wet environments
(camera XH-A1 or RME preamp). For the most part
(business) they need to excel in universal electrical
compliance (comparability) with other studio
mic-preamps. All uses are for the spoken word only.
My max budget is $1K. The two lav's I'm most
interested in are the Sanken COS-11 and TRAM
TR-50. I'd consider purchasing one of each if sonic
signature isn't readily apparent in production.
Thoughts?

Personally, I don't know why anybody uses Trams - except they're
flat profile. Most guys I know agree. The Sanken COS 11's sound
great, great reach maybe a bit bright, but have fragile wires and are
prone to grounding issues when the paint scrapes off, which mainly can
appear when you are using a couple of them on the same metal mic
clip. I like the flatter, fatter sounding Sennheiser ME102's. As I
recall they look about the same on frequency plots as the Senn "Mickey
2's" (MKE2's), but are smoother sounding in reality and sound better
off axis. And the DPA 4060's are wonderful sounding, but I wish they
still came with the steel cables for wires. Be careful about the
adapters you use, there are -10 pads intergral to some of the adpaters
and you have to make sure your suppliers gives you the right one. (We
couldn't figure out at ABC why the DPA's were lower in output than the
Sennheisers's, until I did a bit of tech reading....

Thanks for the DPA referal... I'm researching them now.

You can easily get a pair of any of them for way under your
budget I think. I like the DPA's best for sound, but the ME102's are
probably a bit more durable.

So, COS-11 or DPA 4060 as your best pick? Are the sonic
signatures readily apparent between them or close enough
for straight editing?

All DPA or the Senn M102. For durability probably I'd choose the
102's as I've used them for years so I know how to work them.
They're close, in sound to each other, but main thing is if I had
several of
either brand of them open in a mix they mic an _area_ well. My
concept is if I have 5 or 6 lavs open in a talk show situation, I'm
micing an area, not six individual people. Match levels carefully,
don't try to do too much, don't overboost eq; you can avoid "hollow"
sound with good mics and such practices.

Will Miho
NY TV/Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away... "Tom Waits"