On Wednesday 01 June 2005 13:01, Bob Cain
) wrote:

There's just not typically going to be an eye candy installer
for freeware/shareware type applications.

Nonetheless, for people for whom time is money and others
who consider an operating system to be something that is
just a necessasary nuisance

Nonetheless, people for whom time is money can spend their money on
proprietary operating or on support for free operating systems or neither.
Paying for something doesn't make the money well spent, just as not paying
for something doesn't mean it's ultimately free of charge.

As far as free applications I've been watching this movement

Unlikely, considering your comment above.

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On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:29:07 +1200,
Geoff Wood wrote:

"Jim Richardson" wrote in message news:flf0n2-

How about an office suite? the browser? your newsreader? did they come
from sony with that one click also? can you upgrade them all, with one
click? like I can?

Yes.



So when you upgrade yoru system, with that one click you mention, it
upgrades the browser, OE, your DAW stuff, and any and everything else on
the machine?

Really?

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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Silence is one of the most effective forms of communication.

* Geoff Wood Wrote in rec.audio.pro:


"JEDIDIAH" wrote in message

apt-get install ardour*

It doesn't get any more "one step than that".

That's typing 22 characters. Instead of a double-click and
possibly a single OK click or two.

geoff


OK, so go through the K menu and select Install Software. There is
your 2 clicks.

You still had to go find the site, register on the website, clean
your email account of the 5 pieces of spam the registration triggered
and reboot twice.

--
David

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On 1 Jun 2005 13:07:29 -0400,
Mike Rivers wrote:

In article ?= writes:

A good portion of Linux and its admin applications are based on existing
functionality in UNIX, so the need for design was much less. Existing
design was used to some extent.

Apart from that, your impression has to be wrong. Why? Because,
without design and sound decisions (for the most part), Linux would have
been a house of cards that would have folded long ago.

It may not be a house of cards, but it's a house that's never
finished. The reason why it hasn't fallen is because there are so many
contractors who like their work.



So you are saying that MS-Windows was written by people who hated their
work, and it's finished now?

So there'll be no upgrades, no new stuff for MS-Windows?

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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"If you choke a smurf, what color does it turn?"

* Sammy Wrote in rec.audio.pro:

'emerge ardour'

Yea and why don't you tell them about the week you spent
installing Gentoo?


I didn't even have the thing or its dependancies on my system. A
little while later my system had downloaded, compiled, and
installed everything I needed and I was in business.

This was on a 64 bit system even.

Sure, and this is what you had to go through to install gentoo
Linux:

Fine, how about:

urpmi ardour

And the MDK install took all of 1/2 hour and no reboots.

--
David

Bob Cain wrote:
Geoff Wood wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message


Things like disk defragmentation are an excellent example of the
annoyances
that Windows users have to put up with, that people in the rest of the
world don't really have to worry about.


The very occasion defrag (always when not otherwise in use) has never been a
problem , imposition, or even incovenience to me.

And never a necessity. It merely enhances performance by
making files contiguous on the drive.

You sure about that?

But you're making a stupid point anyway. The real point is that a
simple process kicks off an install in both cases.

Yes, they have gotten quite silly with their method of argument.
Nitpicking over the amount of characters that have to be typed and/or
mouse clicks clicked is pretty damn rediqulous and indicates the
mentality that these arguments are comming from...in other words it no
longer has ANYTHING to do with anything of any purpose but just closed
minds desperately clinging to their very limited world view.

On Wednesday 01 June 2005 14:40, Linønut

) wrote:

Geoff Wood poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
apt-get install ardour*

It doesn't get any more "one step than that".

Instead of a double-click and possibly a
single OK click or two.

You're leaving off the navigation, mouse movement, and waiting for a
GUI to load and draw itself.

You're leaving off running Synaptic, although it probably takes eight or ten
clicks to install an application.

But you're making a stupid point anyway. The real point is that a
simple process kicks off an install in both cases.

Counting even a dozen mouse clicks versus twenty-two characters is a stupid
comparison of operating systems. I just thought I'd add to the frivolity.

In article writes:

There are tons of linux computers in the embedded world, running tons of
specialized apps. For a perfect example, see TiVo.

That's great - no user interaction with the operating system at all. How
does he even know that it's Linux? And why would he care? He's not buying
it, installing it, upgrading it, modifying it, or running applications of his choice
on it.

Now if you had said RADAR (the multi-track stand-alone hard disk recorder)
I would have patted you on the head for at least being aware of an audio
application that I believe uses Linux, or at least some flavor of Unix. But
like TiVo, the user doesn't mess with it, and if there are any software updates,
they're provided directly from the unit's manufacturer.

The Mackie dxb digital console uses an embedded version of Windows
(which has been known to display the blue screen of death at times) but
it's sort of a compromise. Users can run non-Mackie audio processing
plug-in applications on it just like they can on a PC. Some work, and some
don't. Just like a PC.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article . com writes:

Your inability or unwillingness to learn a new system has nothing to do
with that system's viability.

For me, it has everything to do with it. And if there are enough like
me, and I believe there are, then it won't be "viable."

One definition of viable is "Capable of living, developing, or
germinating under favorable conditions." Without willing and
knowlegable users, you don't have favorable conditions. You may be
able to bring it kicking and screaming into the world, but until the
marjority of potential users see a reason to switch from what they're
comfortable with, it will remain a specialized tool.

A corporate IT-managed environment is a favorable condition. A home
user, or a user of applications who doesn't have the desire to learn
much more than basic maintenance (and I concur that this is an
important level of knowlege for anyone to be a successful computer
user) is not a favorable environment.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article .com writes:

Can you name one? Or two? Let us in rec.audio.pro judge how "pro" they
are.

So you can play the, "Not a real Scotsman," game?

What's that? A Linux game program?

Ok, lets see just
how much credibility you have and how soon you will start attacking
fellow workers in the industry just to debase an OS you know nothing
about...

http://www.multitrack.us/

And the start of an e-book written by them:

http://209.134.141.117/jam/book1.htm

How is this answering my question? Why should I have to read a book? I
just asked you to name a couple of Linux audio workstation
applications that are used professionally. Is that so difficult?

Where's the Mix article about Bob Clearmountain or Chuck Ainley or Al
Schmitt, or Ed Cherney or even Craig Anderton using a Linux
application productively? If you don't know enough about the field of
music production to name some programs or users, then please keep your
discussions to your Linux newsgroup.

[cross-posted to how "reply-to" is set up by the Linux poster - sorry]

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:07:26 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote:

I guess, but while you and I can't get at it, I'd like to think that all
the necessary documentation for Windows resolves somewhere within
Microsoft, not here and there on a few hundred web sites.

I'd like to think the US government has our best interests at heart, but I
don't have very much faith that that is the case. If there's any human
being I trust less than GWB, it's Bill Gates.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:07:27 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote:


What happened to the "Built on NT Technology" that was supposed to be a
version ready for
enterprise application? I guess it wasn't simple enough for the common
man.

I think the real problem was that it wasn't robust enough for enterprise
duty.

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Geoff Wood

wrote
on Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:04:38 +1200
:

"JEDIDIAH" wrote in message

apt-get install ardour*

It doesn't get any more "one step than that".

That's typing 22 characters. Instead of a double-click and possibly a
single OK click or two.

geoff


I wonder about this metric. Granted, it has the virtue of
simplicity for the complete newbie, but there are several
issues regarding time for the seasoned professional.

[1] In X, at least, a mouse move generates far more
events than a keypress. Basically, a window, if
it's interested, will get such things as FocusIn
and FocusOut events, MouseMotion events, and two
ButtonPresses. (The MouseMotion events are probably
not that interesting to Nautilus but I'd have to look;
it would only be interesting during a *drag*, which
is not a discussion issue at this moment.)

Contrast that to a down-up stroke, which generates, as
one might expect, a KeyDown and a KeyUp. In a pinch,
the KeyUp is ignored (different implementations of X
quibble on this when the key is held down and starts
autorepeating, which is also not a discussion issue
at this moment).

Of course this is also not all that good a metric, as
people are rarely monitoring streams of MouseMovement
events directly. However, those using X remotely
(ssh -X) may notice.

I think Windows has a similar issue, though I would
have to study it.

[2] A touch typist likes to keep his hands above the
"home keys": "ASDF" on the left, "JKL;" on the right.
While one can make nasty noises about the original
purpose of the QWERTY keyboard (in very olden times
the keys tended to jam; therefore the intent was to
make the touch typist type as slowly as possible :-) )
it's what many of us are trained on. The only
competing technology -- if one can call it that --
is the DVORAK keyboard. (I don't have comparison speeds
handy for the two.)

Either way, of course, the hands don't move much --
*until one has to pick up the entire hand and move
it over to the mouse*. This is a pain, and slows a
typist down; he has to locate the mouse, move it,
possibly click on a button, then locate the home keys
again on the hand that was using the mouse.[*]

For its part Windows does allow usage of the ALT key.
This key allows for selection of menus without having
to use the wired soapbar -- though it could be more
consistent. (It could be a lot more consistent in
Linux, too.)

[3] Mice are a pain, compared to trackballs. Trackballs do
suffer from the lifting of the hand but with trackballs
one doesn't have to lift the entire mouse as well in
order to move the cursor, if it gets to the end of
its "roamspace" (usually a mousepad with some sort of
image the user likes). I'm not that good of a gamester
but trackballs are a lot easier to aim when one's trying
to dodge the stream of enemy fire in Unreal 2004... :-)

I'll admit I'm not sure where 'apt-get' would be documented
in a Debian distro (I tend to use 'dselect' myself, which is
a key/menu-driven CLI/curses affair). But once learned, it's
a bit like double-clicking. Need to install a package? Just

$ su
# apt-get install ardour
....
# CTRL/D
#

As far as I can tell, it's a learned behavior, much like
"double-click" on an icon.

Of course, I'm slightly biased. I don't know if it's
around on the Web anywhere but at one point one of the more
amusing Amiga demos (which would correspond roughly with
Macromedia Flash today) was titled "V.A.U.X. Killer Demo".
The end of the demo was triggered by a double-click on a
window containing an old-style explosives trigger a la
Wile E. Coyote... :-)

There is a good side to GUIs. They tend to be
self-documenting; if one sees a pulldown menu one
automatically makes the assumption that it's showing
some functionality that is available. (One might also
make the rather naive assumption that it's showing *all*
of the functionality available.) Windows (and KDE and
Gnome and Motif) also document their shortcuts in the
menu itself -- a notion that probably predated the Amiga,
in fact; I suspect Apple's Finder had Option Key shortcuts
way back when.

But it's highly naive to think that double-clicking is
easier than typing. Such, presumably, depends on the user.
[*] The Amiga had an interesting capability, which might have
existed on other systems. One can press and hold down
the left and right Amiga keys, and the main pointer would
be movable via the arrow keys. It was slightly clumsy
but very helpful for those who didn't have a mouse handy.

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.

In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Now, distributing source is a different matter. A lot of linux utilities
are available with full source, because linux users like to build things
to customize them. But most of the stuff that is distributed as binaries
is a lot easier and more convenient to install than Windows stuff.

And, as importantly, things installed with RPM or something similar are
easier to track, verify, and uninstall. Being able to answer the
question "where the heck did *this* file come from?", and being able to
answer the question "which files from this application have been
modified since I installed them?" both contribute greatly to being able
to easily run a stable, secure, reliable system. Being able to get rid
of stuff you aren't using also helps keep a system running well.

There's no technical reason whatsoever that precludes a good packaging
system being built for Windows, but for some reason Microsoft has not
chosen to do so.


--
--Tim Smith

In article ,
"Geoff Wood" wrote:
"JEDIDIAH" wrote in message
...
On 2005-06-01, Geoff Wood wrote:

"Jim Richardson" wrote in message news:flf0n2-

How about an office suite? the browser? your newsreader? did they come
from sony with that one click also? can you upgrade them all, with one
click? like I can?

Yes.

Do tell.

What facility under Windows allows you to upgrade all classes
of applications, as well as the underlying OS with just one command or
button click.

This should be interesting.

Most users prefer a little more control and knowledge about exact what is
being altered in their boxes.

So first you say it can be done, but when called on that, you say that
people wouldn't want to do it?

--
--Tim Smith

In article .com writes:

I guess you don't realize just how many servers on the Internet are
Linux then.

I do. This is a well established application for Unix and now Linux.

But none of this has anything to do with Linux as a DAW.

Of course.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article . com writes:

When I need support there are several options:

1. Contact the author(s) of the offending program.
2. Contact the distribution, most have support mailing lists where you
can get support from developers and other users.
3. Newsgroups and forums such as this one. Some may think that is a
lame way to get support, but anyone with any real experience in any OS
knows that is the BEST way to find help...google and newsgroups. Plus
in the case of Linux at least some of the biggest name developers
frequent groups and lists that are not too annoying.
5. IRC chat channels if I must have my answer NOW.

And what does your studio client do while you're searching on line for
support? After he's had dinner? And the musicians he's hired for the
session have other gigs to go to?

While studio work isn't mission critical - nobody's going to die when
your system crashes and you can't get it back up immediately - but
it's darn inconvenient, and often resulsts in some financial losses
that you'll have to make up to the client somehow.

I follow the same procedure when working out problems in Windows, which
I frequently have to write programs in as part of my job.

But the point of this discussion isn't about troubleshooting the
operating system - that should have been done long ago. It's about
troubleshooting the application.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article .com writes:

What? Are you trying to say that the reason Linux is still around is
because it is built by people who enjoy their work? Is that supposed
to be a bad thing?

Do you expect everything I say to be bad? No, that's a good thing.
Without that it would have died long ago.

However, what it needs in order to take over from Microsoft is someone
with Bill Gates' marketing skill and chutzpah to convince ten million
computer users that they need Linux. With a user base like that, the
applications developers will be going full steam with real, finished
products.

You've gotta have the egg before the chickens come along.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Mike Rivers wrote:

It may not be a house of cards, but it's a house that's never
finished. The reason why it hasn't fallen is because there are so many
contractors who like their work.

So you are saying that MS-Windows was written by people who hated their
work, and it's finished now?

Only a person with a closed mind could possibly conclude that from
what I wrote. Get real, fella.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

I still have yet to be convinced of the suitability of computers in general
for pro audio applications. Just get a tape machine and be done with it.
It works just fine.
--scott


Until you need to buy tape...

That's the customer's problem. One reason why computer recording got
to be so popular even before the Great Tape Shortage of 2005 is that
they were able to completely eliminate the cost of media. Since the
customer sees neither the tape nor the disk, he doesn't expect to pay
for media, and usually gets away with that.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

I just installed ardour to test it. It did not give me major problems.

A sterling review!

There seems to be sufficient functionality in ardour. It is however
different from samplitude i've been using for 6 years now, so it will take
some time for me to find my way. Maybe things are missing, but I think it
is likely they will be added.

The test is when a paying customer calls you and asks "Do you have
ProTools?" I learned about that when I was a TASCAM studio and people
with money to spend wanted to spend it with a studio that they had no
reason to worry about whether the gear would work well for their
session.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article znr1117646721k@trad, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:
Ok, lets see just
how much credibility you have and how soon you will start attacking
fellow workers in the industry just to debase an OS you know nothing
about...

http://www.multitrack.us/

And the start of an e-book written by them:

http://209.134.141.117/jam/book1.htm

How is this answering my question? Why should I have to read a book? I
just asked you to name a couple of Linux audio workstation
applications that are used professionally. Is that so difficult?

Perhaps if you'd actually click the first link, you'd see how it answers
your question?


--
--Tim Smith

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Digi

wrote
on Tue, 31 May 2005 18:40:04 -0700
:
Sammy writes:

snip
Just for the record, he was asked how to install ardour.
He posted 'emerge ardour' which for gentoo is the way to do it.

What he forgot to mention was that gentoo takes days to install
and set up and requires a lot of the user to maintain.
IOW he was misleading people who don't realize that.
Gentoo is NOT a distribution the average person should try.

So, even on what is considered to be the most time-intensive distribution,
installing a new package takes only a single short command line. Yep, that
just goes and condemns the Linux operating system for me. I'll just go
on back to Windows, because their package manager handles all the
applications installed without a problem... oh wait.

Digi

And remember, it's *Windows*, the most widely known screen of
death (any color one likes) today. Join now and get an extra
bonus virus!

:-)

Personally, I like Gentoo but I do have to agree with Sammy; one
should at least have a working knowledge of how to install another
distro before trying it "cold", and by all means read the Handbook
carefully. I wouldn't call it difficult but it isn't "click and
go", either; one might liken it to the difference between a throwaway
camera and a high-quality Single-Lens-Reflex unit (that one builds
oneself, but then analogies are always suspect :-) ).

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/index.xml

I don't know about it taking "days", though. A Stage Three probably
takes at most a few hours, if that, though it highly depends on what
one installs.

I prefer Stage One installs but they take a lot longer, as the
system has to compile almost everything from scratch. However,
they're also far more configurable.

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.

Mike Rivers wrote:

And what does your studio client do while you're searching on line for
support? After he's had dinner? And the musicians he's hired for the
session have other gigs to go to?

I don't know, what does your client do when you are on hold waiting for
help?

While studio work isn't mission critical - nobody's going to die when
your system crashes and you can't get it back up immediately - but
it's darn inconvenient, and often resulsts in some financial losses
that you'll have to make up to the client somehow.

So? You haven't yet shown that Linux audio systems need more tech
support or that tech support is less available for them.



I follow the same procedure when working out problems in Windows, which
I frequently have to write programs in as part of my job.


But the point of this discussion isn't about troubleshooting the
operating system - that should have been done long ago. It's about
troubleshooting the application.

That statement is based on what I believe to be a false premise: That
Linux audio applications are unstable and need extra troubleshooting.
In my experience most don't need troubleshooting.

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes:


www.dynebolic.org

that distro not only kicks arse as a multimedia workstation, it also
self-clusters


What does that mean? Something good, or are you being sarcastic?

Well if he is using the term in the standard fashion it means that you
can use it to make several computers act like one.

JEDIDIAH wrote:
it would be nice for these alleged muscians and engineers
to actually articulate for the rest of us what is special about the
Win32 commercial offerings relative to their Linux counterparts.

They obviously don't know.

Sammy wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:01:09 -0700, Noah Roberts wrote:



Sammy wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:53:47 -0700, Noah Roberts wrote:


Yes, Gentoo is a distribution meant for non-newbies that wish to go
totally custom. It is probably the hardest and most consuming install
of any Linux distribution. You need to know a lot to get to the point


So then don't try and mislead people who don't know any better.

Heh, bugger off looser. I ain't misleading anyone. On an already
installed system that is exactly what is done. The installation
procedure of operating systems has not been the debate here. It also
has absolutely no importance to wether or not Ardour and its friends
are a good setup for DAW.


Notice how the Linux zealot reacts when confronted with the facts.

No, this is how someone reacts when someone tries to smokescreen.

Just for the record, he was asked how to install ardour.
He posted 'emerge ardour' which for gentoo is the way to do it.

Correct.


What he forgot to mention was that gentoo takes days to install and set up
and requires a lot of the user to maintain.

Incorrect. Not only was it not forgotten but you are wrong about the
rest also.

IOW he was misleading people who don't realize that.
Gentoo is NOT a distribution the average person should try.

Not the distribution for a *newbie* to try. The *average* person should
be fully capable of using Gentoo once they become familiar with Linux in
general. In fact, they might even manage to use it if they can just
read and follow directions...you seem to be missing that first ability
at the least.

I have mentioned the facts about Gentoo at least 3 times in this very
thread and said it many many posts before you claimed I was trying to
mislead people by ommiting it. In fact, I'll just quote a very early
post by me in this thread:

"Then of course you have Gentoo, which is not an audio distro but makes
creating a DAW very easy once you get past the install, which admitedly
takes some knowledge. It is a custom, almost DIY distro for non-newbies."

**** if that doesn't answer exactly this situation and EXACTLY what I
said this whole ****ing time!!

If you are going to jump into a thread with your nonsense try to read
some of it first so you don't look like a complete ass when you point
fingers at people and call them names.

L!


If you are happy in windows that is fine. Other people are not. Linux
can be, and is, used for digital audio work. It does a fine job of it.


If you are satisfied that's great, but you'll never convince me to move
over from Samplitude 7

Oh good. Catering to morons will ruin Linux. They just bring
everything down to the lowest common denominator.

Tim Smith wrote:

Perhaps if you'd actually click the first link, you'd see how it answers
your question?

Well, since he clipped out the question and changed it I don't think the
answer applies any longer.

===
Befo

I know it is used by pro studios.

Can you name one? Or two? Let us in rec.audio.pro judge how "pro" they
are.

=

Now:

I just asked you to name a couple of Linux audio workstation
applications that are used professionally.

===

Then again, they do mention a few applications that they use so I guess
the answer still applies even with the lowball tactics of the questioner.

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article .com writes:


Can you name one? Or two? Let us in rec.audio.pro judge how "pro" they
are.

So you can play the, "Not a real Scotsman," game?


What's that?

A: Scotsmen never scratch their sacks.
B: McHenry is a Scotsman and he scratches his sack.
A: Well, McHenry isn't a REAL Scotsman.

Geoff Wood wrote:

Most users prefer a little more control and knowledge about exact what is
being altered in their boxes.

That is rich. Tell me what registry alterations occurred in your last
install shield install then.

And do you really think users wouldn't like a button that said, "Upgrade
everything," on their computer? Well, I guess that is an opinion. On
the other hand, I have extensive experience with users and have to say I
think you are quite wrong. In fact I bet they would prefer it didn't
even ask so long as it never broke anything.

Let me fix context for you...

There are plenty of
people patching Unix for security so there are plenty of
people who
have the knowledge to create and exploit security holes. It's
no fun
to screw up the system of a fellow hobbyist. It's only fun to
screw up
the system of a major corporation or an innocent and clueless
user.


By that reasoning, then, there shouldn't be many Windows
exploits, and
tons of Linux exploits. Yet the situation is diametrically opposite.

How comes that?


Because hobbyists don't malicisously screw each other They might
another's help some day.


I guess you don't realize just how many servers on the Internet are
Linux then.

I do. This is a well established application for Unix and now Linux.

But none of this has anything to do with Linux as a DAW.

Of course.

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article .com writes:


What? Are you trying to say that the reason Linux is still around is
because it is built by people who enjoy their work? Is that supposed
to be a bad thing?


Do you expect everything I say to be bad?

Not really, just stupid.

No, that's a good thing.
Without that it would have died long ago.

However, what it needs in order to take over from Microsoft is someone
with Bill Gates' marketing skill and chutzpah to convince ten million
computer users that they need Linux. With a user base like that, the
applications developers will be going full steam with real, finished
products.

Like that.

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes:


Mike Rivers wrote:


It may not be a house of cards, but it's a house that's never
finished. The reason why it hasn't fallen is because there are so many
contractors who like their work.


So you are saying that MS-Windows was written by people who hated their
work, and it's finished now?


Only a person with a closed mind could possibly conclude that from
what I wrote. Get real, fella.

"However, what it needs in order to take over from Microsoft is someone
with Bill Gates' marketing skill and chutzpah to convince ten million
computer users that they need Linux. With a user base like that, the
applications developers will be going full steam with *real, finished
products.* (emphasis added)" - Some net cook.

"Jim Richardson" wrote in message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:29:07 +1200,
Geoff Wood wrote:

"Jim Richardson" wrote in message news:flf0n2-

How about an office suite? the browser? your newsreader? did they come
from sony with that one click also? can you upgrade them all, with one
click? like I can?

Yes.



So when you upgrade yoru system, with that one click you mention, it
upgrades the browser, OE, your DAW stuff, and any and everything else on
the machine?

No , only the stuff I want it to automatically.

geoff

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1117646721k@trad...

In article .com
writes:

Can you name one? Or two? Let us in rec.audio.pro judge how "pro" they
are.

So you can play the, "Not a real Scotsman," game?

What's that? A Linux game program?

Mike, there's no [ppoint. It's like suggesting to somebody in Utah that the
world didn't start up, fully equipped, on Day 1 some 5000 years ago.

geoff

"Tim Smith" wrote in message
...
In article znr1117646721k@trad, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:
Ok, lets see just
how much credibility you have and how soon you will start attacking
fellow workers in the industry just to debase an OS you know nothing
about...

http://www.multitrack.us/

And the start of an e-book written by them:

http://209.134.141.117/jam/book1.htm

How is this answering my question? Why should I have to read a book? I
just asked you to name a couple of Linux audio workstation
applications that are used professionally. Is that so difficult?

Perhaps if you'd actually click the first link, you'd see how it answers
your question?

Sorry, we've tried that and it fails to impress.

geoff

"Geoff Wood" wrote in message
...

"JEDIDIAH" wrote in message

apt-get install ardour*

It doesn't get any more "one step than that".

That's typing 22 characters. Instead of a double-click and possibly a
single OK click or two.


Really, 22 chracters, so damn hard. Wouldn't want know what's going on
inside the magical box.

http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/C_R_Y..._I_C_O_N.shtml

jb

"Noah Roberts" wrote in message
...
Mike Rivers wrote:
In article .com
writes:


What? Are you trying to say that the reason Linux is still around is
because it is built by people who enjoy their work? Is that supposed
to be a bad thing?


Do you expect everything I say to be bad?

Not really, just stupid.

No, that's a good thing.
Without that it would have died long ago.

However, what it needs in order to take over from Microsoft is someone
with Bill Gates' marketing skill and chutzpah to convince ten million
computer users that they need Linux. With a user base like that, the
applications developers will be going full steam with real, finished
products.

Like that.

No, he's right. But the people that are commercializing Linux or Linix apps
can compete or not compete in whatever product category they choose. The
real work of Linux is much longer term. Will operating systems be 'free' (in
the gnu sense) in 50 years as opposed to five? I think so.

jb

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1117621054k@trad...

In article
writes:

My point was that many people use Linux at work.

How did you come to that conclusion? My observation is that most
people at work don't use Linux. If you were to extend this to the
general "Unix" then perhaps the number would go up - many corporate
mail servers and some data base servers are Unix systems, so the
10,000 people who work for that corporation "use" Unix every time they
send or receive e-mail or look up some information in a corporate data
base.

But these are people who aren't really using the operating system,
they're using commercial applications that run under that operating
system. They don't install programs (in fact, one reason why some
companies use Unix is so that employees don't install programs of
their own on their desktop machines), and they don't update the
system. They don't fix problems. The five overloaded IT people in the
company do that. So the 10,000 "users" rapidly shrinks to less than a
dozen in that sample.


Well, if we extend your definition, everybody who uses a bank is a Unix
user, everybody who uses the web is a Linux user. But yes, I'm talking about
those few users, the five overloaded IT people.

jb