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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?


http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

What do you all think?
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 02:32:50 -0700, Paul wrote:


http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

What do you all think?


That is an extremely ill-informed article and the tests have been
performed wrongly.

Cable impedance - they give instead the figure for end-to--end
resistance. This has nothing to do with impedance, which is actually
the ratio of inductance to capacitance per unit length. Cable
resistance is of great importance to speaker cables, but meaningless
for guitars.

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.

Guitar cables do make a great deal of difference to guitar sound, but
not because of their "quality". Their length is what matters. A longer
cable has more capacitance, and this will shift the primary resonance
of the pickup network a long way. A cable over about 10 feet long will
start dulling the sound in much the same way as winding back the tone
control.

So in short, ignore this article. It is gibberish.

d
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On 6/5/2017 5:32 AM, Paul wrote:

http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/
What do you all think?


I couldn't figure out what the "myth" is. Given that this article was
inspired by another article on a forum for bass players, I'm guessing
that the "myth" is that using a specific cable can cause a boost in the
low frequency response.

I haven't followed cables for years, not since someone put a sealed lump
in a cable and marketed it as one that enhances the sound of the
instrument - a guitar, most likely. I speculated that perhaps there was
an inductor in that lump which resonated with the cable capacitance,
resulting in a boost in a useful frequency range. Or perhaps there's a
capacitor in there which would resonate with the pickup inductance in a
useful frequency range. But these these gimmicks can only be designed
for a specific set of conditions, particularly the inductance and
capacitance of the pickup, so they won't work have the same effect for
every instrument and every amplifier.

There's no "myth" to the fact that a cable between an instrument pickup
and an amplifier can, and does affect the frequency response at the
amplifier end. But a low capacitance cable of a reasonable length
affects the frequency response outside of the range of frequencies
produced by the pickup.

If you want more bass from your bass, turn up the Bass knob on your
amplifier. That'll be more effective than any cable.



--

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On 05/06/2017 10:49, Don Pearce wrote:
So in short, ignore this article. It is gibberish.

Once you get below a certain price for the cable, the mechanical
construction suffers, too, and the life of a cheap guitar cable on stage
can be measured using a single hand in gigs done due to their lack of
strain relief and low quality plugs. They also tend to use cable with
higher capacitance and less flexible construction, so you get muffled
sound and crackles as each strand breaks and reconnects as the cable moves.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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In article , Paul wrote:

http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

What do you all think?



1. If you have a 1M input impedance and a source impedance that is not just
high but also nonlinear, it does not take much shunt capacitance to make
a huge change in the frequency response.

2. These tests were clearly not being done with the same impedances you would
see in a guitar environment.

3. This isn't testing triboelectric noise either, which is a big deal. If
you slap the cable on the floor, does it go thump? Some cables will, some
will not.

4. Whoever did this has no idea what "cable impedance" means and they are
talking about series resistance when they say "cable impedance."


Now, these folks DO make the very good comment that price has nothing to do
with quality and that there are a lot of wacky expensive cables on the market
that are deliberately reactive and designed to change your sound.

But the actual measurements here are likely not valid.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 5:33:19 AM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

What do you all think?


If electric guitar, people should worry more about the %THD of their amplifiers!

Jack
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The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.


looks like the the 3rd plot did use an actual pickup as the source impedance

m



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Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.


looks like the the 3rd plot did use an actual pickup as the source impedance


Something like, yes. The other plots though - appear to show rolloff
in bass and treble. I'd very much like to know how that is supposed to
happen.


Let's say we have a typical rubber cord at 60 pF/ft, and it's six feet long,
so we can view it as a 360 pF lumped-sum load.

Our load impedance is 1 megohm, let's assume the source impedance is 1 meg
also (and in reality it'll be worse than that and nonlinear too). So total
shunt resistance is 500K ohms.

So, best case 3dB corner comes out at 1/(2piRC), 1/ 6.3 * 5E5 * 36E-11
or 880 Hz.

So, in this case (and we're neglecting the series L of the cable), you can
view the cable+interfaces system as a first order low pass filter whose -6dB
point is at 880 Hz.

I'd call that a hell of a cable effect... and very different than what they
are describing.

I wouldn't expect to see _any_ bass rolloff, even with considerable cable
series resistance or series inductance. The fact that they are would indicate
to me that they're doing something odd.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 05/06/2017 14:21, wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 5:33:19 AM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

What do you all think?


If electric guitar, people should worry more about the %THD of their amplifiers!

Yup. About 5% of odd order harmonics at normal volume is nice, more if
you want that delicious overdriven valve sound, adjust the tone control
to suit. And make sure that the breakup mode on the speaker cone is
acceptable, linear stiff piston action is not the done thing. :-)

Also, for a different sound, try sticking the mic into the back of the
speaker cabinet, especially if it's got an open back. Sometimes it
sounds better than the front, sometimes not.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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On 5 Jun 2017 10:31:18 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.


looks like the the 3rd plot did use an actual pickup as the source impedance


Something like, yes. The other plots though - appear to show rolloff
in bass and treble. I'd very much like to know how that is supposed to
happen.


Let's say we have a typical rubber cord at 60 pF/ft, and it's six feet long,
so we can view it as a 360 pF lumped-sum load.

Our load impedance is 1 megohm, let's assume the source impedance is 1 meg
also (and in reality it'll be worse than that and nonlinear too). So total
shunt resistance is 500K ohms.

So, best case 3dB corner comes out at 1/(2piRC), 1/ 6.3 * 5E5 * 36E-11
or 880 Hz.

So, in this case (and we're neglecting the series L of the cable), you can
view the cable+interfaces system as a first order low pass filter whose -6dB
point is at 880 Hz.

I'd call that a hell of a cable effect... and very different than what they
are describing.

I wouldn't expect to see _any_ bass rolloff, even with considerable cable
series resistance or series inductance. The fact that they are would indicate
to me that they're doing something odd.
--scott


Well, a guitar isn't a million miles from that. 500k load, and a
source of about 10k ohms in series with several Henries of inductance.

d
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Don Pearce wrote:
On 5 Jun 2017 10:31:18 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.


looks like the the 3rd plot did use an actual pickup as the source impedance


Something like, yes. The other plots though - appear to show rolloff
in bass and treble. I'd very much like to know how that is supposed to
happen.


Let's say we have a typical rubber cord at 60 pF/ft, and it's six feet long,
so we can view it as a 360 pF lumped-sum load.

Our load impedance is 1 megohm, let's assume the source impedance is 1 meg
also (and in reality it'll be worse than that and nonlinear too). So total
shunt resistance is 500K ohms.

So, best case 3dB corner comes out at 1/(2piRC), 1/ 6.3 * 5E5 * 36E-11
or 880 Hz.

So, in this case (and we're neglecting the series L of the cable), you can
view the cable+interfaces system as a first order low pass filter whose -6dB
point is at 880 Hz.

I'd call that a hell of a cable effect... and very different than what they
are describing.

I wouldn't expect to see _any_ bass rolloff, even with considerable cable
series resistance or series inductance. The fact that they are would indicate
to me that they're doing something odd.


Well, a guitar isn't a million miles from that. 500k load, and a
source of about 10k ohms in series with several Henries of inductance.


Right. That's why I picked those numbers.

Modelling the source impedance is a problem, though, since it's not only
more reactive than resistive but it's not linear. So thinking of it as a
1M source is a pretty hasty generalization but not too far off.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 5 Jun 2017 11:01:25 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On 5 Jun 2017 10:31:18 -0400,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.


looks like the the 3rd plot did use an actual pickup as the source impedance


Something like, yes. The other plots though - appear to show rolloff
in bass and treble. I'd very much like to know how that is supposed to
happen.

Let's say we have a typical rubber cord at 60 pF/ft, and it's six feet long,
so we can view it as a 360 pF lumped-sum load.

Our load impedance is 1 megohm, let's assume the source impedance is 1 meg
also (and in reality it'll be worse than that and nonlinear too). So total
shunt resistance is 500K ohms.

So, best case 3dB corner comes out at 1/(2piRC), 1/ 6.3 * 5E5 * 36E-11
or 880 Hz.

So, in this case (and we're neglecting the series L of the cable), you can
view the cable+interfaces system as a first order low pass filter whose -6dB
point is at 880 Hz.

I'd call that a hell of a cable effect... and very different than what they
are describing.

I wouldn't expect to see _any_ bass rolloff, even with considerable cable
series resistance or series inductance. The fact that they are would indicate
to me that they're doing something odd.


Well, a guitar isn't a million miles from that. 500k load, and a
source of about 10k ohms in series with several Henries of inductance.


Right. That's why I picked those numbers.

Modelling the source impedance is a problem, though, since it's not only
more reactive than resistive but it's not linear. So thinking of it as a
1M source is a pretty hasty generalization but not too far off.
--scott


You must put the inductance in there, otherwise you get no resonant
peak.

d
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Don Pearce wrote:
On 5 Jun 2017 11:01:25 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Don Pearce wrote:
On 5 Jun 2017 10:31:18 -0400,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.


looks like the the 3rd plot did use an actual pickup as the source impedance


Something like, yes. The other plots though - appear to show rolloff
in bass and treble. I'd very much like to know how that is supposed to
happen.

Let's say we have a typical rubber cord at 60 pF/ft, and it's six feet long,
so we can view it as a 360 pF lumped-sum load.

Our load impedance is 1 megohm, let's assume the source impedance is 1 meg
also (and in reality it'll be worse than that and nonlinear too). So total
shunt resistance is 500K ohms.

So, best case 3dB corner comes out at 1/(2piRC), 1/ 6.3 * 5E5 * 36E-11
or 880 Hz.

So, in this case (and we're neglecting the series L of the cable), you can
view the cable+interfaces system as a first order low pass filter whose -6dB
point is at 880 Hz.

I'd call that a hell of a cable effect... and very different than what they
are describing.

I wouldn't expect to see _any_ bass rolloff, even with considerable cable
series resistance or series inductance. The fact that they are would indicate
to me that they're doing something odd.

Well, a guitar isn't a million miles from that. 500k load, and a
source of about 10k ohms in series with several Henries of inductance.


Right. That's why I picked those numbers.

Modelling the source impedance is a problem, though, since it's not only
more reactive than resistive but it's not linear. So thinking of it as a
1M source is a pretty hasty generalization but not too far off.


You must put the inductance in there, otherwise you get no resonant
peak.


Oh, absolutely. But when you have that massive a rolloff, anything else is
just gravy. If your point is to show that there's a substantial cable effect
you don't have to go that far.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source
should have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex
impedance of a pickup.


looks like the the 3rd plot did use an actual pickup as the
source impedance


Something like, yes. The other plots though - appear to show
rolloff in bass and treble. I'd very much like to know how that is
supposed to happen.


Let's say we have a typical rubber cord at 60 pF/ft, and it's six
feet long, so we can view it as a 360 pF lumped-sum load.



They vary widely. They may be under 20 pF/foot. I think the 60 pF/ft
ones ayou are talking about are down the page quite a bit:

( units are in meters at the link )

http://www.shootoutguitarcables.com/...nce-chart.html

That's not a specific, lab-grade set of measurements, just an idea of
the range available.

It also depends very much on what input you're driving.

The ones I use are probably about 30pF per foot for 10 feet
and they are fine. I cannot readily tell the difference between a 3ft
and a 10 ft cable, even if plugged into a cheap 1 Mohm DI box.


Our load impedance is 1 megohm, let's assume the source impedance is
1 meg also (and in reality it'll be worse than that and nonlinear
too). So total shunt resistance is 500K ohms.

So, best case 3dB corner comes out at 1/(2piRC), 1/ 6.3 * 5E5 *
36E-11 or 880 Hz.

So, in this case (and we're neglecting the series L of the cable),
you can view the cable+interfaces system as a first order low pass
filter whose -6dB point is at 880 Hz.

I'd call that a hell of a cable effect... and very different than
what they are describing.


Yeah, I don't think that's commonplace. From 500 to 2k is critical on
electric guitar - people would notice this immediately.

I wouldn't expect to see _any_ bass rolloff, even with considerable
cable series resistance or series inductance. The fact that they are
would indicate to me that they're doing something odd. --scott


--
Les Cargill


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Don Pearce wrote:

------------------


You must put the inductance in there, otherwise you get no resonant
peak.



** As I'm sure you already know, magnetic guitar pick ups have a large resonant peak without any additional cable capacitance.

Plus, cable capacitance is pretty much isolated from the PU if the volume pot is not turned most or all the way up.

One it is, the resonant frequency will drop by maybe an octave or two.

BTW:

It's simple to add a FET follower preamp to an electric guitar or bass and render cable noise and capacitance moot.

Guitar makers must think there is no good reason to do so.



..... Phil



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On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 01:42:55 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

------------------


You must put the inductance in there, otherwise you get no resonant
peak.



** As I'm sure you already know, magnetic guitar pick ups have a large resonant peak without any additional cable capacitance.

Plus, cable capacitance is pretty much isolated from the PU if the volume pot is not turned most or all the way up.

One it is, the resonant frequency will drop by maybe an octave or two.

BTW:

It's simple to add a FET follower preamp to an electric guitar or bass and render cable noise and capacitance moot.

Guitar makers must think there is no good reason to do so.



.... Phil



Yes, the standard electrical model for a guitar pickup is a voltage
source in series with an inductor and a resistor, then a capacitor
(representing inter-winding capacitance) in parallel with the lot. The
pickup itself usually has a self resonance of about 6kHz for a single
coil, and 4kHz for a humbucker. Adding cable capacitance to that
shifts the resonance down. Backing off the volume control dulls the
effect on the resonance, but makes the sound overall muddier because
you get a simple high-cut filter. A small (100pF) capacitor across the
top half of the volume control counters this to an extent.

But self resonance plus a few yards of cable are part of the signature
sound of a guitar, and most makers take that into account when
designing. I've tried a FET amp in the guitar, and the sound is a bit
more shrill than I liked. Of course there are now also active pickups
that contain the amp. They are liked by shredders who kill any tone
with brickwall clipping.

d
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On 6/6/2017 4:42 AM, Phil Allison wrote:

It's simple to add a FET follower preamp to an electric guitar or bass and render cable noise and capacitance moot.

Guitar makers must think there is no good reason to do so.


Guitar makers will make whatever guitarists want. Some like the idea,
others are suspicious that it affects the tone - and it does. It removes
the effect of the cable on the pickup, which may (possibly
inadvertently) have been designed for a specific sound with a reasonably
nominal cable and amplifier input impedance 500 kOhms.

And then there's the issue of power for the preamp. You might find
yourself on a gig with a dead battery. And then there's the effect of
carving some wood out of the body to make room for the electronics.

Finally (for the moment), guitar makers tend to put more than a simple
impedance converter into their electronics. I'm not aware of active
guitar electronics with a compressor, but frequently the tone controls
are active rather than a simple R-C filter to cut the treble.

But I think the biggest reason is that guitarists are a suspicious lot.



--

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On 6/06/2017 9:03 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
And then there's the issue of power for the preamp. You might find
yourself on a gig with a dead battery.


Acoustic guitarists with active pick-ups (many) have been coping with
that for years. Changing the battery every few gigs is not that hard.
(Although the ones where you have to slacken the strings to get at the
battery are a pain in the ass.) I did have one artist tell me he had a
passive pick-up when I complained it was clipping. Turns out it had a
battery he hadn't changed in years! If you are going to do paid gigs the
least you can do is make sure your batteries are OK. :-(

Trevor.



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On 6/6/2017 7:29 AM, Trevor wrote:
If you are going to do paid gigs the least you can do is make sure your
batteries are OK.


Who has a paid gig nowadays?

The trouble with battery-powered practically anything these days is that
so much of our electronics draws very little current, and batteries have
a far longer shelf life, as well as service life, than back in the
carbon-zinc days. It's easy to forget that batteries need replacement.

A rarely-paid musician probably plays more with his instrument unplugged
(practicing or writing at home) and may be faced with the quandary of
possibly replacing a battery with plenty of useful life in it.

One thing that we all need to remember is that, while yesteryear's
batteries would usually go dead before they started leaking corrosive
electrolyte, modern batteries that seemingly last forever, particularly
in a device that you don't use every day. They can leak before you
remember that you haven't used that device in a long time, frequently
damaging the device beyond practical repair.

Even "button" cells eventually leak - when was the last time you checked
the one in your computer?

--

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Mike Rivers said...news
On 6/6/2017 4:42 AM, Phil Allison wrote:

It's simple to add a FET follower preamp to an electric guitar or bass

and render cable noise and capacitance moot.

Guitar makers must think there is no good reason to do so.


Guitar makers will make whatever guitarists want. Some like the idea,
others are suspicious that it affects the tone - and it does. It removes
the effect of the cable on the pickup, which may (possibly
inadvertently) have been designed for a specific sound with a reasonably
nominal cable and amplifier input impedance 500 kOhms.

And then there's the issue of power for the preamp. You might find
yourself on a gig with a dead battery. And then there's the effect of
carving some wood out of the body to make room for the electronics.

Finally (for the moment), guitar makers tend to put more than a simple
impedance converter into their electronics. I'm not aware of active
guitar electronics with a compressor, but frequently the tone controls
are active rather than a simple R-C filter to cut the treble.

But I think the biggest reason is that guitarists are a suspicious lot.




Yes, what you said.

FWIW, Rickenbacker made a Roger McGuinn model with an active compressor.
Early Musicman (active) guitars come to mind and used a low-power
programmable opamp to preserve battery power. The Ibanez Musician of the
late 70s was a very nice active-electronics guitar (in spite of the 4558s).
They were all following Alembic by that point, which IMO started it all.

david

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david gourley wrote:

FWIW, Rickenbacker made a Roger McGuinn model with an active compressor.
Early Musicman (active) guitars come to mind and used a low-power
programmable opamp to preserve battery power. The Ibanez Musician of the
late 70s was a very nice active-electronics guitar (in spite of the 4558s).
They were all following Alembic by that point, which IMO started it all.


And on the other end of that scale, there was the Les Paul Recording Pickup
System with a 600 ohm balanced cable run between the instrument and the
amplifier. Nothing fancy about the pickup, it just had fewer turns and
the ground reference point was moved. Very penetrating sound. Rock guys
hated it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 6/6/2017 9:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
And on the other end of that scale, there was the Les Paul Recording Pickup
System with a 600 ohm balanced cable run between the instrument and the
amplifier. Nothing fancy about the pickup, it just had fewer turns and
the ground reference point was moved.



I always thought that's how it worked, but every (which I think is two
or three) wiring diagram I've seen for that guitar shows standard
pickups with conventional tone and volume controls, with transformer
between the pickup switch and the XLR jack on the guitar. The pickups
weren't low impedance, the transformer made the output low impedance and
balanced. The the guitar shipped with an XLR - transformer - 1/4" TS
plug at the amplifier end to make the guitar it work with a standard
amplifier.

Chet Atkins was reported to have made genuine low impedance pickups for
a few of his guitars so he could connect them directly to the mic
preamps of the day.

Could be that with all that haywire in the Les Paul Pro, guitarists who
used it through the input transformer and a standard amplifier weren't
happy with the sound.

There was a matching Les Paul Professional amplifier with an XLR input,
but I never saw a diagram of that one so I don't know if it was a
conventional tube amplifier with a step-up transformer at the input.


--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 10:06:13 -0400, Mike Rivers
wrote:

On 6/6/2017 9:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
And on the other end of that scale, there was the Les Paul Recording Pickup
System with a 600 ohm balanced cable run between the instrument and the
amplifier. Nothing fancy about the pickup, it just had fewer turns and
the ground reference point was moved.



I always thought that's how it worked, but every (which I think is two
or three) wiring diagram I've seen for that guitar shows standard
pickups with conventional tone and volume controls, with transformer
between the pickup switch and the XLR jack on the guitar. The pickups
weren't low impedance, the transformer made the output low impedance and
balanced. The the guitar shipped with an XLR - transformer - 1/4" TS
plug at the amplifier end to make the guitar it work with a standard
amplifier.

Chet Atkins was reported to have made genuine low impedance pickups for
a few of his guitars so he could connect them directly to the mic
preamps of the day.

Could be that with all that haywire in the Les Paul Pro, guitarists who
used it through the input transformer and a standard amplifier weren't
happy with the sound.

There was a matching Les Paul Professional amplifier with an XLR input,
but I never saw a diagram of that one so I don't know if it was a
conventional tube amplifier with a step-up transformer at the input.


There are still pickups that use a matching transformer. The Lace
Alumitone is one. The casing of the pickup is actually a single turn
coil which gets stepped up to a more reasonable impedance by a
transformer - a bit like a ribbon mic.

d
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Richard Kuschel Richard Kuschel is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 3:49:58 AM UTC-6, Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 02:32:50 -0700, Paul wrote:


http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

What do you all think?


That is an extremely ill-informed article and the tests have been
performed wrongly.

Cable impedance - they give instead the figure for end-to--end
resistance. This has nothing to do with impedance, which is actually
the ratio of inductance to capacitance per unit length. Cable
resistance is of great importance to speaker cables, but meaningless
for guitars.

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.

Guitar cables do make a great deal of difference to guitar sound, but
not because of their "quality". Their length is what matters. A longer
cable has more capacitance, and this will shift the primary resonance
of the pickup network a long way. A cable over about 10 feet long will
start dulling the sound in much the same way as winding back the tone
control.

So in short, ignore this article. It is gibberish.

d


Ty Ford and I made a comparison between a boutique guitar cable and my favorite guitar cable which is the skinny George L's cable with solderless ends..
Both were in 20 foot lengths.

We were using magnetic pickups which were not active.

The audio difference is readily apparent. The George L's cable had less loss of high frequency and when I compared the responses through a spectrum analysis program on my computer it verified the difference. Below 250 Hz the responses were identical. Above, the boutique cable rolled off.

I realize that this is a limited sample, but the results with my cable and others have been very consistent. I found out the difference is even more audibly apparent on a bass.

You don't need spectrum analysis to tell you the difference, just listen.





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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT), Richard Kuschel
wrote:

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 3:49:58 AM UTC-6, Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 02:32:50 -0700, Paul wrote:


http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

What do you all think?


That is an extremely ill-informed article and the tests have been
performed wrongly.

Cable impedance - they give instead the figure for end-to--end
resistance. This has nothing to do with impedance, which is actually
the ratio of inductance to capacitance per unit length. Cable
resistance is of great importance to speaker cables, but meaningless
for guitars.

The tests have been done with a signal generator. The source should
have been a dummy circuit that simulates the complex impedance of a
pickup.

Guitar cables do make a great deal of difference to guitar sound, but
not because of their "quality". Their length is what matters. A longer
cable has more capacitance, and this will shift the primary resonance
of the pickup network a long way. A cable over about 10 feet long will
start dulling the sound in much the same way as winding back the tone
control.

So in short, ignore this article. It is gibberish.

d


Ty Ford and I made a comparison between a boutique guitar cable and my favorite guitar cable which is the skinny George L's cable with solderless ends.
Both were in 20 foot lengths.

We were using magnetic pickups which were not active.

The audio difference is readily apparent. The George L's cable had less loss of high frequency and when I compared the responses through a spectrum analysis program on my computer it verified the difference. Below 250 Hz the responses were identical. Above, the boutique cable rolled off.

I realize that this is a limited sample, but the results with my cable and others have been very consistent. I found out the difference is even more audibly apparent on a bass.

You don't need spectrum analysis to tell you the difference, just listen.



Were the boutique cables those ones with a small box of "stuff" at the
end? If so, I believe they are actually lowpass filters.

d
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

Richard Kuschel wrote:
The audio difference is readily apparent. The George L's cable had less lo=
ss of high frequency and when I compared the responses through a spectrum a=
nalysis program on my computer it verified the difference. Below 250 Hz the=
responses were identical. Above, the boutique cable rolled off.=20


And this brings us to be basic problem: it's very easy to make cables to
make things sound different. And often, it's hard to tell if different
means better or worse. And in the case of musical instruments, one man's
better may be another man's worse.

Now, it being established that it's easy to make cables sound different,
it should be clear that there is no reason to spend huge amounts of money
for this.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Phil Allison[_4_] Phil Allison[_4_] is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

Mike Rivers wrote:

--------------------

Scott Dorsey wrote:

And on the other end of that scale, there was the Les Paul Recording Pickup
System with a 600 ohm balanced cable run between the instrument and the
amplifier. Nothing fancy about the pickup, it just had fewer turns and
the ground reference point was moved.




I always thought that's how it worked, but every (which I think is two
or three) wiring diagram I've seen for that guitar shows standard
pickups with conventional tone and volume controls, with transformer
between the pickup switch and the XLR jack on the guitar. The pickups
weren't low impedance, the transformer made the output low impedance and
balanced. The the guitar shipped with an XLR - transformer - 1/4" TS
plug at the amplifier end to make the guitar it work with a standard
amplifier.



** Fraid you have it all back to front.

The Les Paul Recording has LOW impedance, single coil pickups, LOW impedance tone and volume controls and a step UP transformer at the output to give normal guitar levels.

The direct out is LOW impedance & unbalanced.

It could be connected direct to a balanced mic input on a console.

Some examples had a 3 pin male XLR fitted.

http://oi5.photobucket.com/albums/y1...er/lprec-1.gif


http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...Precording.jpg



...... Phil
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

On 6/6/2017 8:32 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

The Les Paul Recording has LOW impedance, single coil pickups, LOW impedance tone and volume controls and a step UP transformer at the output to give normal guitar levels.

The direct out is LOW impedance & unbalanced.

It could be connected direct to a balanced mic input on a console.

Some examples had a 3 pin male XLR fitted.


I took another look - you know that every time you do a Google search
for the same thing, you get some different results. When I looked at
this guitar many years back, I didn't pay much attention to the values
of the components, I was just looking for the transformer. Looking at it
again, it's pretty clear that the pickups and the associated tone and
volume components are a low impedance setup.

I didn't dig in very far, but it seems that there were three models in
this series, the Les Paul Personal, Professional, and Recording. I
believe it was the Recording model that had the XLR output. At least
that was the way the only one I ever saw, a brand new one in a music
store, was configured.

This diagram, which appears to come from a Gibson vault, clearly shows
that the transformer is a step-up, rather than a step-down:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...ingdiagram.jpg

This on (a page back from the one above) shows two variations of the
output section wiring:

http://s269.photobucket.com/user/new...gram2.jpg.html

In the 1971 version, there appears to be an impedance switch that, in
the closed position, appears to connect the primary in parallel to the
secondary, thereby hanging the transformer inductance and capacitance
across the output. Curious!

And here's an interesting article which describes the tone switches:

http://jbwid.com/guitar/lpp02.htm

So with so many variations, it's no wonder that there were guitarists
who hated one or the other.


--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Phil Allison[_4_] Phil Allison[_4_] is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

Mike Rivers wrote:

--------------------

Phil Allison wrote:

The Les Paul Recording has LOW impedance, single coil pickups, LOW impedance tone and volume controls and a step UP transformer at the output to give normal guitar levels.

The direct out is LOW impedance & unbalanced.

It could be connected direct to a balanced mic input on a console.

Some examples had a 3 pin male XLR fitted.


I took another look - you know that every time you do a Google search
for the same thing, you get some different results. When I looked at
this guitar many years back, I didn't pay much attention to the values
of the components, I was just looking for the transformer. Looking at it
again, it's pretty clear that the pickups and the associated tone and
volume components are a low impedance setup.

I didn't dig in very far, but it seems that there were three models in
this series, the Les Paul Personal, Professional, and Recording. I
believe it was the Recording model that had the XLR output. At least
that was the way the only one I ever saw, a brand new one in a music
store, was configured.



** Back in the mid 70s,I worked as an amp tech and builder in a music shop. The shop used to also sell second hand guitars on consignment and a few nice ones turned up so I was able to play around with them.

I particularly remember a Guild Starfire which sold quickly and a Gibson Recording that didn't.

The Gibson had a XLR on the front that may not have been standard.

The wiring was like the link I posted.

I felt it was a good instrument, but the tone was kinda bland.

Any decent Les Paul or SG was much better.


..... Phil



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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

On 6/06/2017 10:01 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/6/2017 7:29 AM, Trevor wrote:
If you are going to do paid gigs the least you can do is make sure
your batteries are OK.


Who has a paid gig nowadays?

The trouble with battery-powered practically anything these days is that
so much of our electronics draws very little current, and batteries have
a far longer shelf life, as well as service life, than back in the
carbon-zinc days. It's easy to forget that batteries need replacement.


But a professional knows his instrument does, and replaces the battery
regularly, if not before every paid gig. We are not talking about car
batteries here that ARE expensive!


A rarely-paid musician probably plays more with his instrument unplugged
(practicing or writing at home) and may be faced with the quandary of
possibly replacing a battery with plenty of useful life in it.


And IF he wants to be paid ever again, the cost of replacing a battery
before a paid gig is hardly an issue IMO.


One thing that we all need to remember is that, while yesteryear's
batteries would usually go dead before they started leaking corrosive
electrolyte, modern batteries that seemingly last forever, particularly
in a device that you don't use every day. They can leak before you
remember that you haven't used that device in a long time, frequently
damaging the device beyond practical repair.


Yep, an issue for devices you rarely use, like that emergency torch
perhaps. Wouldn't expect it to apply to a professional musicians
instruments though.


Even "button" cells eventually leak - when was the last time you checked
the one in your computer?


CAN leak, absolutely. Can last for a couple of decades in some cases
too. However I agree they are ones often overlooked because of that.

Trevor.


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[email protected] tompauleast@gmail.com is offline
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Default The Great Guitar Cable Myth?

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 5:33:19 AM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

What do you all think?


One of the big name guitar gods, Steven Vai maybe, said in an article that he could hear the difference between guitar cables. Probably an Mogami endorsee. So then, your average Joe reader says..."oh yeah, I can hear it too!" you could too if you had the ears of me and Steven Vai.

I play golf and it amazes me that I find Titleist Pro V golf balls in a pond right in front of the tee box...$4.00 a ball..and they can't hit it 50 yards.
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