[Tom Shults]

All,

I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power
amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround
speakers. This is mainly a music system.

I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and
how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which sits
against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on side
walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers?
Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them
on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the
listening position.

Thanks for any advice.

Tom

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 18, 3:20*pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All,

I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power
amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround
speakers. *This is mainly a music system.

I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and
how to orient/mount them. *The main listening position is a couch which sits
against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. *Mounting on side
walls is not an option. *Should I be considering in-wall speakers?
Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them
on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the
listening position.

Thanks for any advice.

Tom

Tom:

A BUNCH of questions:

a) Why do you want additional speakers? If it is just to fill the room
with sound, perhaps the main speakers are inadequate (although the KEF
seems to specify just fine)?
b) What are you going to use to synthesize the "surround" sound?
Something as simple as the Hafler Circuit (*many* net references) or
something else? If you simply run four speakers from the same amp, you
will very likely need a switch box as the KEFs have a nominal 4-ohm
impedance, and many amps don't like very low impedances.
c) if you are using a digital surround synthesizer, you will need an
additional 2-channel amp - a signficant expense in addition to the
speakers. Are you prepared for this?

Now, some suggestions: If you just run 4 speakers and spread them
apart, you run the chance of making mudpies vs. a clear soundstage.
So, unless you have an unusual listening room or other peculiar
conditions, I would NOT suggest this configuration unless the speakers
are 'stacked' in the same X,Y & Z axes, with only vertical variations
in the Y axis. At which point, one might ask why one would consider
this in the first place.

A Hafler circuit is fun to play with - and there are most-of-the-time
Dynaco QD-1 or QD-2 adaptors on the Net all the time. This puts it all
in a box for you with conveniently marked terminals and instructions.
The instructions with these units *STRONGLY* suggest that the front
and rear speakers be of very similar impedance and nature as they rely
on the electrical characteristics of the speakers to be very nearly
identical in order to function properly. Dynaco used their own
speakers as models, for example.

Digital delay systems are a whole 'nother' thing. In my time, I have
experimented with the Advent & ADS systems. I have another system that
I am playing with now. They are good-great fun to experiment with, and
they can make impressive noise and give impressive effects. But, for
the record, I am not so sure that they add all that much to the
experience. Super *WOW* factor. But that is about it. Add to this the
additional amplification needed, funny speaker-placement requirements,
a lack of simplicity, constant adjustments based on the source-signal
(a string quartet in a Stadium setting is just a bit peculiar) and
other problems make them more of a PITA than a pleasure.

But, it is worthwhile to investigate. Do some research on the Hafler
Circuit, the Advent 500, the ADS digital Delay System and other more
current systems including some of the several synthesized surround
systems available today. Get an idea of what you are in for before you
spend serious bucks.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[[email protected]]

On Dec 18, 3:20*pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All,

I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power
amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround
speakers. *This is mainly a music system.

I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and
how to orient/mount them. *The main listening position is a couch which sits
against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. *Mounting on side
walls is not an option. *Should I be considering in-wall speakers?
Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them
on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the
listening position.

Thanks for any advice.

Tom

If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers?
There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround
sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub.
Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as
well?

Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not
worth the bother. Most of the time it sounds way worse than the
original 2 channel. And most speakers that are light enough to be
wall mounted are not nearly as good as the front floor speakers.

In answer to your position question I would try to place the speakers
so they do radiate to all listening positions. I would suggest
placing them near the back corners angled down and toward the center
of the room. Most wall mounts will allow you to move the speakers
orientation around so you can experiment.

If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I
suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a
sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well
as a couple rear speakers.

[Harry Lavo]

wrote in message
...
On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All,

I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power
amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround
speakers. This is mainly a music system.

I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and
how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which
sits
against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on
side
walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers?
Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang
them
on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the
listening position.

Thanks for any advice.

Tom

If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers?
There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround
sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub.
Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as
well?

I'm sorry to disagree, but it is a matter of perspective......
Thousands of SACDs, hundreds of DVD-A's, many music DVD's, and...coming
along...Blu-Ray Hi-Def lossless 5.1.


Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not
worth the bother. Most of the time it sounds way worse than the
original 2 channel. And most speakers that are light enough to be
wall mounted are not nearly as good as the front floor speakers.

Surround works fine as a 4.0 for music. Almost all players allow you to
redirect the center channel into left or right to have a normal stereo
phantom center channel.


In answer to your position question I would try to place the speakers
so they do radiate to all listening positions. I would suggest
placing them near the back corners angled down and toward the center
of the room. Most wall mounts will allow you to move the speakers
orientation around so you can experiment.

Not optimal, but better than flat on the rear wall (unless dipole or bipole)

If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I
suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a
sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well
as a couple rear speakers.

He said "music". You don't need an effects sub for music. A small sub to
work in concert with small rear speakers might make some sense, though.

[Greg Wormald[_2_]]

I've tried a number of 'surround sound' systems over the last 40 years
and the only ones that made the sound better were specifically designed
for SQ4 and the like, and it wasn't enough better to make me want to
keep the system going.

I've had a Hafler set-up a number of times, and included L-pads to
control the volume of the rear speakers--but that is all long gone in
preference to 2 channel stereo.

One problem I foresee with your set-up is the seating area being too
close to the wall. This is a trap for unwary players and often gives
problems with imaging and makes a spacious sound very difficult.

I know it's a pain, but my recommendation would be to try and re-arrange
the room and get both the speakers and the listening position away from
walls. Try a number of different arrangements. You might have a try at
"live end--dead end" styles to see whether that gives you the sound you
want.

Lots of people like "near field" listening, too, although its not for me.

Good luck.

Greg

[Tom Shults]

wrote in message
...
On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All,

I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power
amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround
speakers. This is mainly a music system.

I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider
and
how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which
sits
against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on
side
walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers?
Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang
them
on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the
listening position.

Thanks for any advice.

Tom

If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers?
There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround
sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub.
Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as
well?

Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not
worth the bother. Most of the time it sounds way worse than the
original 2 channel. And most speakers that are light enough to be
wall mounted are not nearly as good as the front floor speakers.

In answer to your position question I would try to place the speakers
so they do radiate to all listening positions. I would suggest
placing them near the back corners angled down and toward the center
of the room. Most wall mounts will allow you to move the speakers
orientation around so you can experiment.

If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I
suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a
sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well
as a couple rear speakers.




Thanks to all who responded (on-list and off-list) to my inquiry about
surround speaker placement. It sounds like it really would be better to
place the speakers to the side of my listening position, so I am sorry that
is not an option. I will either get dipole speakers, or make sure I get
mounts that can be angled toward the listening position.

I was not very clear in my initial note that I already have an extra stereo
amplifier that I can use to drive the surround speakers. My Anthem preamp
processor has a few synthesized music modes that I wish to use, in addition
to getting surround for my occasional movie use.

Presently, I am just going to get some cheap surround speakers to see if I
like the Anthem music modes at all. Perhaps I will not. Anyway it will be
a learning experience.

Tom

[Harry Lavo]

"Tom Shults" wrote in message
...
wrote in message

snip


I was not very clear in my initial note that I already have an extra
stereo
amplifier that I can use to drive the surround speakers. My Anthem preamp
processor has a few synthesized music modes that I wish to use, in
addition
to getting surround for my occasional movie use.

Presently, I am just going to get some cheap surround speakers to see if I
like the Anthem music modes at all. Perhaps I will not. Anyway it will
be
a learning experience.

Tom

Tom, I can't speak for the Anthem, as I have never heard it's surround
modes.....but I do use a Margules Dehlia multi-channel preamp which has
built-in (switchable) analog matrix mode on its stereo inputs, and it is
wonderful...I have it "on" for TV, for FM, for LP, for Tape, and for all my
stereo digital (DAT, CD). I can switch directly between stereo this way and
(on CD) stereo through my multichannel SACD player. I enjoy matrix mode
more.

Incidentally, on TV, when the signal is dolby encoded such as nowadays most
sporting events, the matrix tends to give true surround.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 19, 11:06*am, "Harry Lavo" wrote:
"Tom Shults" wrote in message

...





wrote in message
snip

I was not very clear in my initial note that I already have an extra
stereo
amplifier that I can use to drive the surround speakers. *My Anthem preamp
processor has a few synthesized music modes that I wish to use, in
addition
to getting surround for my occasional movie use.

Presently, I am just going to get some cheap surround speakers to see if I
like the Anthem music modes at all. *Perhaps I will not. *Anyway it will
be
a learning experience.

Tom

Tom, I can't speak for the Anthem, as I have never heard it's surround
modes.....but I do use a Margules Dehlia multi-channel preamp which has
built-in (switchable) analog matrix mode on its stereo inputs, and it is
wonderful...I have it "on" for TV, for FM, for LP, for Tape, and for all my
stereo digital (DAT, CD). *I can switch directly between stereo this way and
(on CD) stereo through my multichannel SACD player. * I enjoy matrix mode
more.

Incidentally, on TV, when the signal is dolby encoded such as nowadays most
sporting events, the matrix tends to give true surround.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sound that has been mixed given consideration for the various analog
methods of "upconverting" to multi-channel is "not bad". But very
little regular stereo music content has been done this way. Most
music is mixed to stereo intending to reproduce the effects of an
audience sitting in front of a stage environment. Extrapolating some
sort of "rear" component out of that is usually disappointing. Even
more so if the additional speakers are smaller and not full range.

I would say that anyone listening to analog derived multi-channel need
only spend some time listening to real digitally encoded 5.1
surround. The difference is night and day.

[jamesgangnc]

Sure there is content available in other than stereo formats but outside of
video soundtracks I'd wager it is easily less than .1 percent of what is
available in stereo. I have a blueman group 5.1 music dvd that is pretty
cool. But it's not something I listen to except for it's demonstration of
the possibilities of music over 5.1. And it definitely NEEDS the sub. Wall
mounted speakers are never going to hold a candle to his fronts as far as
music content goes.

I'm not convinced he really means music. If he really means just music he
should be aware that to a lot of people it's not be worth the bother. And
if he is really thinking video sound tracks then he should just go ahead and
put togther a conventional 5.1 system.

A response from the op confirming his true intentions would be helpful.

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All,

I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power
amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround
speakers. This is mainly a music system.

I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider
and
how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which
sits
against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on
side
walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers?
Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang
them
on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the
listening position.

Thanks for any advice.

Tom

If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers?
There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround
sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub.
Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as
well?

I'm sorry to disagree, but it is a matter of perspective......
Thousands of SACDs, hundreds of DVD-A's, many music DVD's, and...coming
along...Blu-Ray Hi-Def lossless 5.1.


Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not
worth the bother. Most of the time it sounds way worse than the
original 2 channel. And most speakers that are light enough to be
wall mounted are not nearly as good as the front floor speakers.

Surround works fine as a 4.0 for music. Almost all players allow you to
redirect the center channel into left or right to have a normal stereo
phantom center channel.


In answer to your position question I would try to place the speakers
so they do radiate to all listening positions. I would suggest
placing them near the back corners angled down and toward the center
of the room. Most wall mounts will allow you to move the speakers
orientation around so you can experiment.

Not optimal, but better than flat on the rear wall (unless dipole or
bipole)

If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I
suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a
sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well
as a couple rear speakers.

He said "music". You don't need an effects sub for music. A small sub to
work in concert with small rear speakers might make some sense, though.

[Steven Sullivan]

Harry Lavo wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All,

I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power
amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround
speakers. This is mainly a music system.

I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and
how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which
sits
against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on
side
walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers?
Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang
them
on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the
listening position.

Thanks for any advice.

Tom

If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers?
There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround
sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub.
Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as
well?

I'm sorry to disagree, but it is a matter of perspective......
Thousands of SACDs, hundreds of DVD-A's, many music DVD's, and...coming
along...Blu-Ray Hi-Def lossless 5.1.

Not to mention at least four different 2channel-to-surround synthesis
schemes now commonly found on AVRs, e.g., DPLII, Logic 7, DTS Neo, Neural THX...

Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not
worth the bother.

No sure what 'analog surround conversion' is.

If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I
suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a
sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well
as a couple rear speakers.

He said "music". You don't need an effects sub for music. A small sub to
work in concert with small rear speakers might make some sense, though.

A good subwoofer (or two ) isn't just for effects. It allows you to better optimize
low frequency room response, than woofers permanently mounted below the
other drivers.

And a center channel gives you more latitude in terms of listening positions.
THree channels was in fact the originally-determined optimum, back
when home audio was first being seriously imagined.

--
-S
I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can
seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit
the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have
woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life -- Leo Tolstoy

[Harry Lavo]

wrote in message
...
On Dec 19, 11:06 am, "Harry Lavo" wrote:
"Tom Shults" wrote in message

...





wrote in message
snip

I was not very clear in my initial note that I already have an extra
stereo
amplifier that I can use to drive the surround speakers. My Anthem
preamp
processor has a few synthesized music modes that I wish to use, in
addition
to getting surround for my occasional movie use.

Presently, I am just going to get some cheap surround speakers to see
if I
like the Anthem music modes at all. Perhaps I will not. Anyway it will
be
a learning experience.

Tom

Tom, I can't speak for the Anthem, as I have never heard it's surround
modes.....but I do use a Margules Dehlia multi-channel preamp which has
built-in (switchable) analog matrix mode on its stereo inputs, and it is
wonderful...I have it "on" for TV, for FM, for LP, for Tape, and for all
my
stereo digital (DAT, CD). I can switch directly between stereo this way
and
(on CD) stereo through my multichannel SACD player. I enjoy matrix mode
more.

Incidentally, on TV, when the signal is dolby encoded such as nowadays
most
sporting events, the matrix tends to give true surround.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Sound that has been mixed given consideration for the various analog
methods of "upconverting" to multi-channel is "not bad". But very
little regular stereo music content has been done this way. Most
music is mixed to stereo intending to reproduce the effects of an
audience sitting in front of a stage environment. Extrapolating some
sort of "rear" component out of that is usually disappointing. Even
more so if the additional speakers are smaller and not full range.

I would say that anyone listening to analog derived multi-channel need
only spend some time listening to real digitally encoded 5.1
surround. The difference is night and day.

I simply cannot agree. I have a large SACD/DVD-A collection and am hooked
on multichannel. But I still prefer matrix to stereo on almost all music,
including studio recordings of pop stuff. For one thing, the matrix
separates out the studio ambiance from the direct feed, so you get some
sense of space if there is any on the recording; for another many
instruments are recorded all or via leakage somewhat out of phase and this
shifts their position. And failing any of that, the matrix creates a
derived ambiance that still broadens and sweetens the sound.

[Harry Lavo]

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All,

I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass
power
amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround
speakers. This is mainly a music system.

I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider
and
how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which
sits
against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on
side
walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers?
Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang
them
on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the
listening position.

Thanks for any advice.

Tom

If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers?
There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround
sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub.
Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as
well?

I'm sorry to disagree, but it is a matter of perspective......
Thousands of SACDs, hundreds of DVD-A's, many music DVD's, and...coming
along...Blu-Ray Hi-Def lossless 5.1.

Not to mention at least four different 2channel-to-surround synthesis
schemes now commonly found on AVRs, e.g., DPLII, Logic 7, DTS Neo, Neural
THX...

Yep


Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not
worth the bother.

No sure what 'analog surround conversion' is.

He's talking Dynaco/McCormick, (and my Margules) where the matrixing is done
outside the digital realm...whether simply or with some sophistication.


If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I
suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a
sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well
as a couple rear speakers.

He said "music". You don't need an effects sub for music. A small sub
to
work in concert with small rear speakers might make some sense, though.

A good subwoofer (or two ) isn't just for effects. It allows you to
better optimize
low frequency room response, than woofers permanently mounted below the
other drivers.

Agree, that's why I suggested a small sub for the rear speakers. But he has
full range front speakers, and the suggestion was that he needed a full 5.1
system....in which case the "sub" is essentially an effects-sub.


And a center channel gives you more latitude in terms of listening
positions.
THree channels was in fact the originally-determined optimum, back
when home audio was first being seriously imagined.

No question, a 5 channel system is better. But if you don't have room...or
simply don't want to disrupt your current setup you can use 4. And 4 is
less of a problem for music than it is for movies where centered sound is
paramount.