[Sander deWaal]

François Yves Le Gal said:

It seems that the nice people at Vishay Sprague have more and more problems
with their Atom line of elcos. Vide some from a recent batch with inverted
shrink sleeves: http://www.aingeal.com/atom/Atom.jpg

Hmmm. Wonder how many mismarked caps have shipped...


Not restricted to BC/Vishay, I'm afraid.

We've had this happen lately with Nippon Chemicon as well.

Seems to be happening since the RoHS directive became effective.
What the exact relation is, is still unclear.
We sent the blown up smaples back to Japan for further study.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Patrick Turner]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote:

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:50:47 +0100, Sander deWaal wrote:

Not restricted to BC/Vishay, I'm afraid.

We've fully tested all the Atom's we've received today and found another
"mistake" : the 80 µF / 450 V are not 80 µF caps, they all measure between
46 and 54 µF and are very probably mislabeled 40 or 50 µF caps of unknown
max V.

Yeah, talk about American quality : I've never seen such problems with
European caps from F&T or JJ. Never.

Caps in crossovers from old speakers sometimes vary 100%.

In AR12 speakers I recently re-engineered, I found huge
variations on C tolerances.
When I then measured the accumulated my stocks of old caps left over
from other re-engineered
other AR, JBL, and other brand speakers mainly from the late 1970s,
the cap values were way out, and all needed relabelling so I know what
experimental values
I am using when I assemble the initial crossover for testing during
re-engineering.
New bi-polar electro caps of 22uF, 47uF etc made in Taiwan, measure
nearly exactly right.
This tells me the meter reads right, and the old caps are wrong,
and probably were wrong when originally fitted.

Old caps are a PITA.

But recently, while examining Auricaps in a preamp where they were
fitted last year
during routine maintenance I discovered dc leakage where it simply
shouldn't be.

So some new caps are a PITA.

Patrick Turner.

[Arny Krueger]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

In AR12 speakers I recently re-engineered, I found huge
variations on C tolerances.
When I then measured the accumulated my stocks of old caps left over
from other re-engineered
other AR, JBL, and other brand speakers mainly from the late 1970s,
the cap values were way out, and all needed relabelling so I know what
experimental values
I am using when I assemble the initial crossover for testing during
re-engineering.
New bi-polar electro caps of 22uF, 47uF etc made in Taiwan, measure
nearly exactly right.
This tells me the meter reads right, and the old caps are wrong,
and probably were wrong when originally fitted.

Old caps are a PITA.

In times past naive folks have replaced old caps with new caps and the sound
of the equipment changed. Some of them ascribed the differences to esoteric
effects like dielectric absorption, when in fact all they did is replace a 5
uF cap with a 10 uF cap in a circuit where the proper capacitance was 10 uF.

Very few people who do "capacitor upgrades" on old equipment, and do it
right. That means doing trivial checks on the old parts to see what their
status was, as well as checking new parts to make sure they are what they
claim to be.

Good work, Pat!

[Eeyore]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

So some new caps are a PITA.

Most so-called "audiophile" caps are basically overpriced junk.

But they're hand wound by nubile virgins under the light of a full moon ! Surely
that counts for something ?

Did anyone else see the capacitor modification for electrolytics to 'improve the
sound' that involved transplanting the guts into wooden tubes ?

Graham

[Sander deWaal]

Patrick Turner said:


So some new caps are a PITA.


Sure.

The Nippon Chemicons I mentioned earlier, are radial types in the
series SMH.
Some of them had the sleeve crimped 180 degrees.
The only way to tell what's plus and minus is the structure of the
mounting studs where the pins ate welded to the internal structure.
Not something you'd expect assembly line people to look at.......


4700 uF/100V, 12 pieces in a symmetrical power supply is a lot of
charge and energy when things go wrong.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Peter Wieck]

On Feb 13, 11:24 pm, Patrick Turner wrote:

Old caps are a PITA.
So some new caps are a PITA.

Test 'em coming out. Test 'em going in. The only way to fly.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Ned Carlson]

Sander deWaal wrote:


Not restricted to BC/Vishay, I'm afraid.

We've had this happen lately with Nippon Chemicon as well.

The Atom line of Sprague Vishay capacitors are made by Nippon
Chemicon aka United Chemicon, in North Carolina, and have been
for a long time. So this is unlikely to be a coincidence.

I would call these "Deputy Barney Fife" capacitors, Barney
Fife not only was from North Carolina, Barney only had one
bullet (in his pocket), and when he did try to use it, he
tried to put it in his gun butt first.


We sent the blown up smaples back to Japan for further study.

"Smaples"? Something tells me they won't be transferring
production to Holland to correct these production errors ;-)

--
Ned Carlson
SW side of Chicago, USA
www.tubezone.net

[Patrick Turner]

Eeyore wrote:

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

So some new caps are a PITA.

Most so-called "audiophile" caps are basically overpriced junk.

But they're hand wound by nubile virgins under the light of a full moon ! Surely
that counts for something ?

Did anyone else see the capacitor modification for electrolytics to 'improve the
sound' that involved transplanting the guts into wooden tubes ?

Graham

Some years ago I was asked to fully repair a couple of pairs of JBL
speakers
where the surrounds to bass drivers had rotted out, and in the process I
checked everything else.

I found there were coupling caps in series with tweeters which
were plastic film caps but which were encapsulated in cardboard
cylinders sealed at each end
with cardbooard end plugs. Inside the cardboard tubes and surrounding
the cap was
an amount of what looked like Carly Fornia beach sand, because when I
removed a cap that was
stuck to a masonite circuit board of the Xover, the cardboard case tore
open, and all this
sand poured out. The sand must have been used to damp the capacitor's
susceptibility
for microphonic excitation by sound waves within the enclosure.
Either that or the idea was something inneffectually dreamed up by a
Carly Fornian resident's
enthusiasm for elightenment effected with lsd or thc in the seventies.

The crossover coils in series with bass speakers were about 1.8mH, and
consisted of E&I laminations
of 10mm stack, 6mm tongue, plus a few turns of thin wire. I figured that
above very low
levels, these would saturate with signal level and thus act as non
linear filter devices
so that the speakers were subject to expanded sound signals.
After re-building the Xovers with all new LCR, the speakers did sound a
lot better.
Such speakers had about 1.5 cu. ft. enclosures, maybe 35Litres, but had
12" / 300mm dia bass
drivers to boost bass, because a decent ported box would need to be 3
times the volume for
a more flat response since the VAS was high...
The speakers tended to have "one note" bass, and were not Carly Fornian
boom boxes for nothing.
They sold like hot cakes by the thousand....
But I digress from caps....

Boom chicka boom, boom chicka boom....

The Beach Boys spent several summers on beaches in Oz
because there was a shortage of sand in the US.

Patrick Turner.

[David R Brooks]

Patrick Turner wrote:
....
I found there were coupling caps in series with tweeters which
were plastic film caps but which were encapsulated in cardboard
cylinders sealed at each end
with cardbooard end plugs. Inside the cardboard tubes and surrounding
the cap was
an amount of what looked like Carly Fornia beach sand, because when I
removed a cap that was
stuck to a masonite circuit board of the Xover, the cardboard case tore
open, and all this
sand poured out. The sand must have been used to damp the capacitor's
susceptibility
for microphonic excitation by sound waves within the enclosure.
Either that or the idea was something inneffectually dreamed up by a
Carly Fornian resident's
enthusiasm for elightenment effected with lsd or thc in the seventies.

Or was the sand just to fill out a larger package, so fooling the
non-technical that this was a "better" capacitor?
I've seen something similar done with batteries: a C-size cell put in a
D-size casing, & sold at the D-size price.

[Patrick Turner]

David R Brooks wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:
...
I found there were coupling caps in series with tweeters which
were plastic film caps but which were encapsulated in cardboard
cylinders sealed at each end
with cardbooard end plugs. Inside the cardboard tubes and surrounding
the cap was
an amount of what looked like Carly Fornia beach sand, because when I
removed a cap that was
stuck to a masonite circuit board of the Xover, the cardboard case tore
open, and all this
sand poured out. The sand must have been used to damp the capacitor's
susceptibility
for microphonic excitation by sound waves within the enclosure.
Either that or the idea was something inneffectually dreamed up by a
Carly Fornian resident's
enthusiasm for elightenment effected with lsd or thc in the seventies.

Or was the sand just to fill out a larger package, so fooling the
non-technical that this was a "better" capacitor?


No, No, No, the caps were hidden inside the speaker, and hardly anyone
non technical
had any idea what actually was inside there.
Speaker makers often left out any serious attempt at x-over building,
but with JBL
at least there was a x-over; some speakers just had full signal to the
bass, and
22uF to the treble, and 4uF to the tweeter, no impedance equalisation,
and no inductors.

In the 1970s, Marantz had a model with a bass and treble speaker
with reflex port hole between the two with a grille over it to make it
look like a midrange.
Ppl were fooled, wow, a 3 way speaker! and it only a 4uF cap in front of
the tweeter.
But in fact it was about a 6 way speaker because each large thin box
panel
produced a range of frequencies....

I've seen something similar done with batteries: a C-size cell put in a
D-size casing, & sold at the D-size price.

Ah well, they probably sold them to deople with D-size brains.

Patrick Turner.

[Peter Wieck]

On Feb 15, 4:51 pm, François Yves Le Gal wrote:
On 14 Feb 2007 08:04:31 -0800, "Peter Wieck" wrote:

Test 'em coming out. Test 'em going in. The only way to fly.

Yup. A few years ago you could do some random testing. Now everything has to
be tested. And all suppliers have gone ISO. Wonder if there's a connection?

I am sure it is. ISO more-or-less works to some level of tolerable
defects based on some level of testing. But with producers
manufacturing for multiple labels with various degrees of tolerance, I
can see that "first-run, fully tested" caps would be labeled to one
supplier on that program, and "the rest of the crap" would be
distributed amongst the peasants.

Once upon a time a supplier would make their own products on
dedicated lines with individuals trained at what they are doing.
Today, just like the (actual event) Chevy Nova coming down the line as
seen from the left and the Toyota Corolla coming down the line as seen
from the right, that ain't necessarily so no more.

When I am doing any sort of capacitor work from audio replacement and
upgrading to shotgunning vintage radios, they are tested out and
tested in. The small-value film caps are generally pretty good. The
electrolytics... SHEESH... I am OK with +100/-20% tolerances for most
applications, but these days I see far more +0/-40% than anything
else. And boutique-caps are, if anything, far worse-by-test. Nichicon
el-cheapos seem to test out the closest to label in my experience.
Also US-made motor-run caps from my local motor rebuilder test out
pretty close as well - but are real-estate pigs. Otherwise, it is a
crap-shoot.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Sander deWaal]

Ned Carlson said:


We sent the blown up smaples back to Japan for further study.


"Smaples"? Something tells me they won't be transferring
production to Holland to correct these production errors ;-)


Damn lysdexia is playing up again.

Should be smaples, of course. ;-)

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Sander deWaal]

François Yves Le Gal said:


Should be smaples, of course. ;-)


Snapples?


Samples. ;-)

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Patrick Turner]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote:

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:37:00 +0100, Sander deWaal wrote:

Should be smaples, of course. ;-)

Snapples?

Not to be cornfused with elmons, bacages, croboli, nabanas,
wartsberries,
aronges, sraep or retawmelons.

More raviety can be found at Earth's rupple sister planet.

Aptrick Urtner.

[Patrick Turner]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote:

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:38:17 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:

More raviety can be found at Earth's rupple sister planet.

Smaple is the national tree of Scnadana, isn't it?

No, its a nkid of kcor found in Uastrilaa.

They nime it and its rowth a tol of nomey.

The Hcinese yub it!

Rickpat Nertur.

[west]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Eeyore wrote:

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

So some new caps are a PITA.

Most so-called "audiophile" caps are basically overpriced junk.

But they're hand wound by nubile virgins under the light of a full moon
! Surely
that counts for something ?

Did anyone else see the capacitor modification for electrolytics to
'improve the
sound' that involved transplanting the guts into wooden tubes ?

Graham

Some years ago I was asked to fully repair a couple of pairs of JBL
speakers
where the surrounds to bass drivers had rotted out, and in the process I
checked everything else.

I found there were coupling caps in series with tweeters which
were plastic film caps but which were encapsulated in cardboard
cylinders sealed at each end
with cardbooard end plugs. Inside the cardboard tubes and surrounding
the cap was
an amount of what looked like Carly Fornia beach sand, because when I
removed a cap that was
stuck to a masonite circuit board of the Xover, the cardboard case tore
open, and all this
sand poured out. The sand must have been used to damp the capacitor's
susceptibility
for microphonic excitation by sound waves within the enclosure.
Either that or the idea was something inneffectually dreamed up by a
Carly Fornian resident's
enthusiasm for elightenment effected with lsd or thc in the seventies.

The crossover coils in series with bass speakers were about 1.8mH, and
consisted of E&I laminations
of 10mm stack, 6mm tongue, plus a few turns of thin wire. I figured that
above very low
levels, these would saturate with signal level and thus act as non
linear filter devices
so that the speakers were subject to expanded sound signals.
After re-building the Xovers with all new LCR, the speakers did sound a
lot better.
Such speakers had about 1.5 cu. ft. enclosures, maybe 35Litres, but had
12" / 300mm dia bass
drivers to boost bass, because a decent ported box would need to be 3
times the volume for
a more flat response since the VAS was high...
The speakers tended to have "one note" bass, and were not Carly Fornian
boom boxes for nothing.
They sold like hot cakes by the thousand....
But I digress from caps....

Boom chicka boom, boom chicka boom....

The Beach Boys spent several summers on beaches in Oz
because there was a shortage of sand in the US.

Patrick Turner.

The sand was a feeble attempt to cut down on microphonics.

west

[Eeyore]

west wrote:

The sand was a feeble attempt to cut down on microphonics.

What microphonics ?

Graham

[Patrick Turner]

west wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Eeyore wrote:

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

So some new caps are a PITA.

Most so-called "audiophile" caps are basically overpriced junk.

But they're hand wound by nubile virgins under the light of a full moon
! Surely
that counts for something ?

Did anyone else see the capacitor modification for electrolytics to
'improve the
sound' that involved transplanting the guts into wooden tubes ?

Graham

Some years ago I was asked to fully repair a couple of pairs of JBL
speakers
where the surrounds to bass drivers had rotted out, and in the process I
checked everything else.

I found there were coupling caps in series with tweeters which
were plastic film caps but which were encapsulated in cardboard
cylinders sealed at each end
with cardbooard end plugs. Inside the cardboard tubes and surrounding
the cap was
an amount of what looked like Carly Fornia beach sand, because when I
removed a cap that was
stuck to a masonite circuit board of the Xover, the cardboard case tore
open, and all this
sand poured out. The sand must have been used to damp the capacitor's
susceptibility
for microphonic excitation by sound waves within the enclosure.
Either that or the idea was something inneffectually dreamed up by a
Carly Fornian resident's
enthusiasm for elightenment effected with lsd or thc in the seventies.

The crossover coils in series with bass speakers were about 1.8mH, and
consisted of E&I laminations
of 10mm stack, 6mm tongue, plus a few turns of thin wire. I figured that
above very low
levels, these would saturate with signal level and thus act as non
linear filter devices
so that the speakers were subject to expanded sound signals.
After re-building the Xovers with all new LCR, the speakers did sound a
lot better.
Such speakers had about 1.5 cu. ft. enclosures, maybe 35Litres, but had
12" / 300mm dia bass
drivers to boost bass, because a decent ported box would need to be 3
times the volume for
a more flat response since the VAS was high...
The speakers tended to have "one note" bass, and were not Carly Fornian
boom boxes for nothing.
They sold like hot cakes by the thousand....
But I digress from caps....

Boom chicka boom, boom chicka boom....

The Beach Boys spent several summers on beaches in Oz
because there was a shortage of sand in the US.

Patrick Turner.

The sand was a feeble attempt to cut down on microphonics.

west

Had they placed the whole crossover in a box screwed to the outside of
the speaker where
it is away from the loud sound levels **inside** the box,
and then filled the whole box with sand, they'd have been more effective
at reducing microphonics.

Not even the beach babes would have had anywhere to sunbake, and think
of the dissapointment that would have caused!

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

Eeyore wrote:

west wrote:

The sand was a feeble attempt to cut down on microphonics.

What microphonics ?

Graham


Low level ones.

Sound excites caps so plate dimmensions change which dynamically phase
modulates the sound signals.
Coils of wire in inductors rattle around to change L,
so more phase twitching. Not a big issue though eh.

Patrick Turner.