"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:00:04 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"In the case of ATRAC encoding, 80% of the information is
lost
permanently. But, the energy contained in the audio signal
remains about the same."

They are both true statements. Got a problem with that?

Mmmm....very butch, aren't we?

Something for Arny to explain to me at
length in Paradise, where we'll all have a lot more time.

The good news is that I'm not responsible for your errors
and lying, Paul. You made you do it.

Do you see me contradicting your statement, Arnie? I merely said that
I'll have to get you to explain it more fully sometime.

And incidentally, while I fully admit to errors (as indeed you would
be wise to when appropriate), lying has nothing to do with it.

Someone should explain to Mikey that this is why Arny is considered a
nasty
person

Someone should explain to you that I don't give a ****.
If I get the answers I want from him about the questions I ask, then he's
done all I need him to do. He's never been anything but cordial to me and
to those who have always been cordial to him.

If he gets treated less than cordially he tends to hold a grudge, sorta like
you against McCarty, or me.

If your ego is so fragile that it can't stand somebody's criticism of you,
especially when you're dead wrong, which happens a lot it seems, then ****
off. You're obviously too big a candy ass to be here.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message


Someone should explain to Mikey that this is why Arny is
considered a nasty person

Someone should explain to Robert why he comes off as a
busybody and whiner, when he isn't taking some nasty licks
of his own.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
k.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
k.net...

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:03:15 GMT, wrote:

3) The standard specifications (amplifiers and loudspeakers)
given
by
manufacturer's are largely misleading indicators of performance
and
sound
quality.
Making a purchase decision based on these specifications is like
rolling
the
dice in Las Vegas..


Cheers,
Sean Olive, Manager Subjective Evaluation
R&D Group, Harman International

Mr. McKelvy, are you listening?

Probably better than you are.

But not thinking. Mikey's mckelviphibian brain is incapable of
higher
mental
processes.

How big was that telescope?
Obsessive interests in telescopes, noted.


Yawn.

Thanks for admitting you have nothing to say.

Snore.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


Someone should explain to Mikey that this is why Arny is
considered a nasty person

Someone should explain to Robert why he comes off as a busybody and
whiner, when he isn't taking some nasty licks of his own.
I don't see the point, he seems to be a skeptic about that issue.

nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

Another example of ABC (With hidden reference ) is attached below. In this
test Bang & Olufsen's spin-off amplifier company "ICE Power" used this
method to determine whether there was an audible difference with a filter
removed from their class D amplifier. They found that listeners could not
tell the difference.

The fact is that very few audio companies do controlled double-blind tests
period... ABX or any other method for that matter. Harman is one of the
very few companies that do valid controlled listening tests, which is the
reason I work here.

Proper valid listening tests cost lots of time and money, money that most
companies feel is better spent on marketing and advertising -- or profit
margin. To a large extent they can get away with it because there are few
checks and balances. For example:

1) 99% of audio equipment review magazines don't do valid controlled
listening tests and their objective measurements of the equipment is
often missing or is incomplete.

2) the consumer is increasingly less able to do a valid comparison of
products in the stores, as audio equipment has become a big-box store
commodity

3) The standard specifications (amplifiers and loudspeakers) given by
manufacturer's are largely misleading indicators of performance and sound
quality.
Making a purchase decision based on these specifications is like rolling
the dice in Las Vegas..


Unfortunately, none of the above 1,2,3, hocus-focus prove that ABX is
a valid and effective means to confirm whether the subtle differences
audiophiles hear physically exist or not.

Eddie, the man says it's one of a couple valid ways to test for difference.
Once again the world is amused at your incredible blindness.




What if the subject for the test is none other than Howard Ferstler who admits
to having deeply held personal vendetta towards high-end establishment
going back in the late '70s, how would your man above go about explaining
that a no-difference Ferstler test result is valid ?

Anyway, if your man says it's one of the two valid ways to test for
differences, what makes you think it is so ?


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive or what
??


It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A. and,
towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive subtle
difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?



You tirelessly labor the religious gospel for him. Let the man speak for
himself.

He just did, you twit.


Then, thank you for tirelessly pasting his written words to the attention
of Rao.


This is an open forum.


Otherwise you'd not be allowed in.


Why?

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:50:47 GMT, wrote:

Sean is a very nice guy who is totally comitted to better audio and
information about the subject. He said in no uncertain terms that he
believes in listening tests and that it is because Harman uses them that he
chose to work for them.

Well, that settles it. I'm buying that HK receiver I was
thinking-about for my basement stereo.

wrote in message
k.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
k.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
k.net...

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:03:15 GMT, wrote:

3) The standard specifications (amplifiers and loudspeakers)
given
by
manufacturer's are largely misleading indicators of performance
and
sound
quality.
Making a purchase decision based on these specifications is
like
rolling
the
dice in Las Vegas..


Cheers,
Sean Olive, Manager Subjective Evaluation
R&D Group, Harman International

Mr. McKelvy, are you listening?

Probably better than you are.

But not thinking. Mikey's mckelviphibian brain is incapable of
higher
mental
processes.

How big was that telescope?
Obsessive interests in telescopes, noted.


Yawn.

Thanks for admitting you have nothing to say.

Snore.

Mikey, you have an inferior mind. Sleep away.

nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

Another example of ABC (With hidden reference ) is attached below. In this
test Bang & Olufsen's spin-off amplifier company "ICE Power" used this
method to determine whether there was an audible difference with a filter
removed from their class D amplifier. They found that listeners could not
tell the difference.

The fact is that very few audio companies do controlled double-blind tests
period... ABX or any other method for that matter. Harman is one of the
very few companies that do valid controlled listening tests, which is the
reason I work here.

Proper valid listening tests cost lots of time and money, money that most
companies feel is better spent on marketing and advertising -- or profit
margin. To a large extent they can get away with it because there are few
checks and balances. For example:

1) 99% of audio equipment review magazines don't do valid controlled
listening tests and their objective measurements of the equipment is
often missing or is incomplete.

2) the consumer is increasingly less able to do a valid comparison of
products in the stores, as audio equipment has become a big-box store
commodity

3) The standard specifications (amplifiers and loudspeakers) given by
manufacturer's are largely misleading indicators of performance and sound
quality.
Making a purchase decision based on these specifications is like rolling
the dice in Las Vegas..


Unfortunately, none of the above 1,2,3, hocus-focus prove that ABX is
a valid and effective means to confirm whether the subtle differences
audiophiles hear physically exist or not.

Eddie, the man says it's one of a couple valid ways to test for difference.
Once again the world is amused at your incredible blindness.




What if the subject for the test is none other than Howard Ferstler who admits
to having deeply held personal vendetta towards high-end establishment
going back in the late '70s, how would your man above go about explaining
that a no-difference Ferstler test result is valid ?

Anyway, if your man says it's one of the two valid ways to test for
differences, what makes you think it is so ?


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive or what
??


It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A. and,
towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive subtle
difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?



You tirelessly labor the religious gospel for him. Let the man speak for
himself.

He just did, you twit.


Then, thank you for tirelessly pasting his written words to the attention
of Rao.


This is an open forum.


Otherwise you'd not be allowed in.


Why?

nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

Another example of ABC (With hidden reference ) is attached below. In this
test Bang & Olufsen's spin-off amplifier company "ICE Power" used this
method to determine whether there was an audible difference with a filter
removed from their class D amplifier. They found that listeners could not
tell the difference.

The fact is that very few audio companies do controlled double-blind tests
period... ABX or any other method for that matter. Harman is one of the
very few companies that do valid controlled listening tests, which is the
reason I work here.

Proper valid listening tests cost lots of time and money, money that most
companies feel is better spent on marketing and advertising -- or profit
margin. To a large extent they can get away with it because there are few
checks and balances. For example:

1) 99% of audio equipment review magazines don't do valid controlled
listening tests and their objective measurements of the equipment is
often missing or is incomplete.

2) the consumer is increasingly less able to do a valid comparison of
products in the stores, as audio equipment has become a big-box store
commodity

3) The standard specifications (amplifiers and loudspeakers) given by
manufacturer's are largely misleading indicators of performance and sound
quality.
Making a purchase decision based on these specifications is like rolling
the dice in Las Vegas..


Unfortunately, none of the above 1,2,3, hocus-focus prove that ABX is
a valid and effective means to confirm whether the subtle differences
audiophiles hear physically exist or not.

Eddie, the man says it's one of a couple valid ways to test for difference.
Once again the world is amused at your incredible blindness.




What if the subject for the test is none other than Howard Ferstler who admits
to having deeply held personal vendetta towards high-end establishment
going back in the late '70s, how would your man above go about explaining
that a no-difference Ferstler test result is valid ?

Anyway, if your man says it's one of the two valid ways to test for
differences, what makes you think it is so ?


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive or what
??


It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A. and,
towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive subtle
difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?



You tirelessly labor the religious gospel for him. Let the man speak for
himself.

He just did, you twit.


Then, thank you for tirelessly pasting his written words to the attention
of Rao.


This is an open forum.


Otherwise you'd not be allowed in.


Why?

McKelvy wrote: (.... nothing yet.)




Are you, perchance, waiting for Arny and Pinkerton
to come along (with crowbars in their hands) and help to
pry open your thighs and forcefully eke out the embedded
tail that is tuck deeply between your legs ?



C'mon now.

"EddieM" wrote in message
m...
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

Another example of ABC (With hidden reference ) is attached below. In
this test Bang & Olufsen's spin-off amplifier company "ICE Power" used
this method to determine whether there was an audible difference with a
filter removed from their class D amplifier. They found that listeners
could not tell the difference.

The fact is that very few audio companies do controlled double-blind
tests period... ABX or any other method for that matter. Harman is one
of the very few companies that do valid controlled listening tests,
which is the reason I work here.

Proper valid listening tests cost lots of time and money, money that
most companies feel is better spent on marketing and advertising -- or
profit margin. To a large extent they can get away with it because
there are few checks and balances. For example:

1) 99% of audio equipment review magazines don't do valid controlled
listening tests and their objective measurements of the equipment is
often missing or is incomplete.

2) the consumer is increasingly less able to do a valid comparison of
products in the stores, as audio equipment has become a big-box store
commodity

3) The standard specifications (amplifiers and loudspeakers) given by
manufacturer's are largely misleading indicators of performance and
sound quality.
Making a purchase decision based on these specifications is like
rolling the dice in Las Vegas..


Unfortunately, none of the above 1,2,3, hocus-focus prove that ABX is
a valid and effective means to confirm whether the subtle differences
audiophiles hear physically exist or not.

Eddie, the man says it's one of a couple valid ways to test for
difference.
Once again the world is amused at your incredible blindness.




What if the subject for the test is none other than Howard Ferstler who
admits
to having deeply held personal vendetta towards high-end establishment
going back in the late '70s, how would your man above go about explaining
that a no-difference Ferstler test result is valid ?

I feel very confident that a whole line of audio equipment is not going to
based on his results in an ABX test, nor any single person's resu;ts.

Anyway, if your man says it's one of the two valid ways to test for
differences, what makes you think it is so ?

Because Sean Olive is one of the foremost experts in the field of audio
research. Even Ludovic knows this to be true. He and Floyd Toole, who also
works at Harman, have done some of the best work in this area.

Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive or
what ??


It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?

A difference that is audible, is a difference that is measurable.

What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A. and,
towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive subtle
difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever. He
has far to much to lose.

You tirelessly labor the religious gospel for him. Let the man speak
for himself.

He just did, you twit.


Then, thank you for tirelessly pasting his written words to the attention
of Rao.


This is an open forum.


Otherwise you'd not be allowed in.


Why?


Becasue yo tend to be combative and impolite.

"EddieM" wrote in message
t...


McKelvy wrote: (.... nothing yet.)




Are you, perchance, waiting for Arny and Pinkerton
to come along (with crowbars in their hands) and help to
pry open your thighs and forcefully eke out the embedded
tail that is tuck deeply between your legs ?



C'mon now.


That's the drawback of an open forum.

Sigh.

wrote in message
k.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:00:04 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"In the case of ATRAC encoding, 80% of the information is
lost
permanently. But, the energy contained in the audio signal
remains about the same."

They are both true statements. Got a problem with that?

Mmmm....very butch, aren't we?

Something for Arny to explain to me at
length in Paradise, where we'll all have a lot more time.

The good news is that I'm not responsible for your errors
and lying, Paul. You made you do it.

Do you see me contradicting your statement, Arnie? I merely said that
I'll have to get you to explain it more fully sometime.

And incidentally, while I fully admit to errors (as indeed you would
be wise to when appropriate), lying has nothing to do with it.

Someone should explain to Mikey that this is why Arny is considered a
nasty
person

Someone should explain to you that I don't give a ****.
If I get the answers I want from him about the questions I ask, then he's
done all I need him to do. He's never been anything but cordial to me and
to those who have always been cordial to him.

If he gets treated less than cordially he tends to hold a grudge, sorta
like
you against McCarty, or me.

If your ego is so fragile that it can't stand somebody's criticism of you,
especially when you're dead wrong, which happens a lot it seems, then ****
off. You're obviously too big a candy ass to be here.

See Arny's recent reply to Paul, Mikey. If you continue to copy that kind of
bad character, you'll end up with as bad a character as a dumb person
possibly can.

wrote in message
k.net...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


Someone should explain to Mikey that this is why Arny is
considered a nasty person

Someone should explain to Robert why he comes off as a busybody and
whiner, when he isn't taking some nasty licks of his own.
I don't see the point, he seems to be a skeptic about that issue.

Mikey, you are a dumb person, ie., a person of low intelligence.

wrote in message
k.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
paul packer wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:29:34 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan
wrote:


So it would appear that specs do not define the sound quality of
amps.
Thus all well-designed, similarly measuring amps do not sound the
same. Or am I mis-reading here?

Yes. *specs* are not the same as *measured performance*.

Well, I'll put that one in the basket with "stripping away 80% of the
signal does not reduce the energy of that signal at all". Something
for Arny to explain to me at length in Paradise, where we'll all have
a lot more time

Put on your thinking cap and ponder this mystery --
if specs 'define the sound quality' why do audio
magazines bother with bench tests?

That is a really stupid question.


And as usual, you don't have an answer.
It is a really stupid question, asked by a really dumb guy.

wrote in message
.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
k.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
. net...
Mike:

Another example of ABC (With hidden reference ) is attached
below.
In
this
test Bang & Olufsen's spin-off amplifier company "ICE Power" used
this
method to determine whether there was an audible difference with
a
filter
removed from their class D amplifier. They found that listeners
could
not
tell the difference.

The fact is that very few audio companies do controlled
double-blind
tests
period... ABX or any other method for that matter. Harman is one
of
the
very few companies that do valid controlled listening tests,
which
is
the
reason I work here.


Thanks to Sean for PROVING that ABX is not widely used in hifi
design.
Thanks to Mikey the mckelviphbian, WHO HAS NEVER USED ABX, for
posting
this.


No wonder they wouldn't give you a diploma.

Hey, Mikey, I have a Masters. What do you have?

Your goat.

Mikey, it's a sheep, not a goat. Can't you tell the difference?
I hope you're enjoying her.

She does say she misses her Daaaaaaad, so I think I'll send her back.

Nah, you broke her, you keep her.

"dizzy" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:50:47 GMT, wrote:

Sean is a very nice guy who is totally comitted to better audio and
information about the subject. He said in no uncertain terms that he
believes in listening tests and that it is because Harman uses them that
he
chose to work for them.

Well, that settles it. I'm buying that HK receiver I was
thinking-about for my basement stereo.

Yes, isn't it remarkable how all those HK receivers over the past 20 years
have been head and shoulders over their K-Mart competition.

wrote in message
ink.net...

"EddieM" wrote in message
t...


McKelvy wrote: (.... nothing yet.)




Are you, perchance, waiting for Arny and Pinkerton
to come along (with crowbars in their hands) and help to
pry open your thighs and forcefully eke out the embedded
tail that is tuck deeply between your legs ?



C'mon now.


That's the drawback of an open forum.

You could have it done in Mexico for a fraction of the cost here.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message


Mikey, you are a dumb person, ie., a person of low
intelligence.

Robert, if simply being a dumb person doesn't explain the
years of stupidity you've inflicted on this group, what then
is the problem with you?

The Krooborg is kornered and krazed with rage.

Robert, if simply being a dumb person doesn't explain the
years of stupidity you've inflicted on this group, what then
is the problem with you?

On the contrary, Turdy -- Morein has only recently embraced the truth about you.
Namely, and to wit, that you are a very obnoxious individual who is afflicted
with mental problems that go begging for treatment.

Up until the recent past, Morein tried to reason with you on many occasions, and
also overlooked your snotty attacks in the hope of persuading you to behave like
a real person. He gave you far more latitude that most Normals do, and far more
than you deserve. You should be thanking him for his undue and unrewarded
kindnesses toward your ****ful self.



..
..
..

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
k.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:00:04 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"In the case of ATRAC encoding, 80% of the information is
lost
permanently. But, the energy contained in the audio signal
remains about the same."

They are both true statements. Got a problem with that?

Mmmm....very butch, aren't we?

Something for Arny to explain to me at
length in Paradise, where we'll all have a lot more time.

The good news is that I'm not responsible for your errors
and lying, Paul. You made you do it.

Do you see me contradicting your statement, Arnie? I merely said that
I'll have to get you to explain it more fully sometime.

And incidentally, while I fully admit to errors (as indeed you would
be wise to when appropriate), lying has nothing to do with it.

Someone should explain to Mikey that this is why Arny is considered a
nasty
person

Someone should explain to you that I don't give a ****.
If I get the answers I want from him about the questions I ask, then he's
done all I need him to do. He's never been anything but cordial to me
and
to those who have always been cordial to him.

If he gets treated less than cordially he tends to hold a grudge, sorta
like
you against McCarty, or me.

If your ego is so fragile that it can't stand somebody's criticism of
you,
especially when you're dead wrong, which happens a lot it seems, then
****
off. You're obviously too big a candy ass to be here.

See Arny's recent reply to Paul, Mikey. If you continue to copy that kind
of
bad character, you'll end up with as bad a character as a dumb person
possibly can.

More irony.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
k.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
...
paul packer wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:29:34 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan
wrote:


So it would appear that specs do not define the sound quality of
amps.
Thus all well-designed, similarly measuring amps do not sound the
same. Or am I mis-reading here?

Yes. *specs* are not the same as *measured performance*.

Well, I'll put that one in the basket with "stripping away 80% of
the
signal does not reduce the energy of that signal at all". Something
for Arny to explain to me at length in Paradise, where we'll all
have
a lot more time

Put on your thinking cap and ponder this mystery --
if specs 'define the sound quality' why do audio
magazines bother with bench tests?

That is a really stupid question.


And as usual, you don't have an answer.
It is a really stupid question, asked by a really dumb guy.

Not answered by the biggest dumb ass on RAO, you.

nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

snip.


Unfortunately, none of the above 1,2,3, hocus-focus prove that ABX is
a valid and effective means to confirm whether the subtle differences
audiophiles hear physically exist or not.

Eddie, the man says it's one of a couple valid ways to test for
difference. Once again the world is amused at your incredible blindness.

What if the subject for the test is none other than Howard Ferstler who
admits to having deeply held personal vendetta towards high-end
establishment going back in the late '70s, how would your man above go
about explaining that a no-difference Ferstler test result is valid ?

I feel very confident that a whole line of audio equipment is not going to
based on his results in an ABX test, nor any single person's resu;ts.


Thank you for saying that. We must all feel very confident that sound
quality of audio equipments should not be based on an individual
ABX test such as from you, Mr. Sean Olive, and most especially not
from that ridiculous Howard Ferstler.


Anyway, if your man says it's one of the two valid ways to test for
differences, what makes you think it is so ?

Because Sean Olive is one of the foremost experts in the field of audio
research. Even Ludovic knows this to be true. He and Floyd Toole, who also
works at Harman, have done some of the best work in this area.

Yes, but we must remain confident, as you said, that sound quality of
audio equipments should not be based solely on their individual ABX
test. Yes, I fully agree with what you just said above.


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive or
what ??

It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?


A difference that is audible, is a difference that is measurable.


I'm NOT asking about Mr. Sean Olive's excellent skills and ability in
determining whether the sound difference he heard was measurable
or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Mr. Sean Olive concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this mean
that he's hearing things ? _________________


Could you at least give Mr. Sean Olive the personal respect of admitting
that he heard a positive subtle difference while making subjective audio
evaluation over at Harman ?



What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A. and,
towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive subtle
difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever. He
has far to much to lose.


I'm NOT asking whether Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a
DBT or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Michael Fremer concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this mean
that he's hearing things ? _________________



snip


Otherwise you'd not be allowed in.

Why?

Becasue yo tend to be combative and impolite.


Yet, you became rude at the Rosa Parks thread unprovoke.

You said, " Um, because she's DEAD you idiot."

nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote


McKelvy wrote: (.... nothing yet.)




Are you, perchance, waiting for Arny and Pinkerton
to come along (with crowbars in their hands) and help to
pry open your thighs and forcefully eke out the embedded
tail that is tuck deeply between your legs ?



C'mon now.


That's the drawback of an open forum.


For you, yes.


Sigh.

Robert Morein wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote


McKelvy wrote: (.... nothing yet.)




Are you, perchance, waiting for Arny and Pinkerton
to come along (with crowbars in their hands) and help to
pry open your thighs and forcefully eke out the embedded
tail that is tuck deeply between your legs ?



C'mon now.


That's the drawback of an open forum.

You could have it done in Mexico for a fraction of the cost here.



I wonder what is going rate at the Hives.

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:26:18 -0400, Robert Morein wrote:

"dizzy" wrote:

Well, that settles it. I'm buying that HK receiver I was
thinking-about for my basement stereo.

Yes, isn't it remarkable how all those HK receivers over the past 20
years have been head and shoulders over their K-Mart competition.

Well, there's not many choices in stereo recievers. I sure wish I could
buy one that was built like a late-70's Pioneer, but with a digital tuner
and remote...

"EddieM" wrote in message
m...
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

snip.


Unfortunately, none of the above 1,2,3, hocus-focus prove that ABX is
a valid and effective means to confirm whether the subtle differences
audiophiles hear physically exist or not.

Eddie, the man says it's one of a couple valid ways to test for
difference. Once again the world is amused at your incredible
blindness.

What if the subject for the test is none other than Howard Ferstler who
admits to having deeply held personal vendetta towards high-end
establishment going back in the late '70s, how would your man above go
about explaining that a no-difference Ferstler test result is valid ?

I feel very confident that a whole line of audio equipment is not going
to based on his results in an ABX test, nor any single person's resu;ts.


Thank you for saying that. We must all feel very confident that sound
quality of audio equipments should not be based on an individual
ABX test such as from you, Mr. Sean Olive, and most especially not
from that ridiculous Howard Ferstler.


Anyway, if your man says it's one of the two valid ways to test for
differences, what makes you think it is so ?

Because Sean Olive is one of the foremost experts in the field of audio
research. Even Ludovic knows this to be true. He and Floyd Toole, who
also works at Harman, have done some of the best work in this area.

Yes, but we must remain confident, as you said, that sound quality of
audio equipments should not be based solely on their individual ABX
test. Yes, I fully agree with what you just said above.



Why would they make decisions for their products based on person's ABX
results?

Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive or
what ??

It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?


A difference that is audible, is a difference that is measurable.


I'm NOT asking about Mr. Sean Olive's excellent skills and ability in
determining whether the sound difference he heard was measurable
or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Mr. Sean Olive concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this
mean
that he's hearing things ? _________________


Probably not, an ABX asks for the person to make a judgement on whcih DUT he
as listening to.

Could you at least give Mr. Sean Olive the personal respect of admitting
that he heard a positive subtle difference while making subjective audio
evaluation over at Harman ?

Perhaps you need to do more research on what an ABX test actually is, then
you'd realize that your question is without meaning.

What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A.
and,
towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive subtle
difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever. He
has far to much to lose.


I'm NOT asking whether Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a
DBT or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Michael Fremer concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this
mean
that he's hearing things ? _________________


See above.


snip


Otherwise you'd not be allowed in.

Why?

Becasue you tend to be combative and impolite.


Yet, you became rude at the Rosa Parks thread unprovoke.

You said, " Um, because she's DEAD you idiot."

It was a stupid question.

On 28 Oct 2005 10:57:29 -0700, George Middius
wrote:

your ****ful self.

****ful self! Well, without ruminating too deeply on the accuracy of
this wildly colourful and just slightly nauseating designation, I must
say it has at least provided a generous portion of amusement for yours
truly this night. Looking forward to more of the same.

(Anyone seen the new Pride and Prejudice yet?) :-)

nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

snip.


Unfortunately, none of the above 1,2,3, hocus-focus prove that ABX is
a valid and effective means to confirm whether the subtle differences
audiophiles hear physically exist or not.

Eddie, the man says it's one of a couple valid ways to test for
difference. Once again the world is amused at your incredible blindness.

What if the subject for the test is none other than Howard Ferstler who
admits to having deeply held personal vendetta towards high-end
establishment going back in the late '70s, how would your man above go
about explaining that a no-difference Ferstler test result is valid ?

I feel very confident that a whole line of audio equipment is not going to
based on his results in an ABX test, nor any single person's resu;ts.


Thank you for saying that. We must all feel very confident that sound
quality of audio equipments should not be based on an individual
ABX test such as from you, Mr. Sean Olive, and most especially not
from that ridiculous Howard Ferstler.


I thank you for concurring with what I said above, e.i., we should not
based our decision on an individual ABX test such as from "you",
Mr. Sean Olive, and Ferstler.



Anyway, if your man says it's one of the two valid ways to test for
differences, what makes you think it is so ?

Because Sean Olive is one of the foremost experts in the field of audio
research. Even Ludovic knows this to be true. He and Floyd Toole, who
also works at Harman, have done some of the best work in this area.

Yes, but we must remain confident, as you said, that sound quality of
audio equipments should not be based solely on their individual ABX
test. Yes, I fully agree with what you just said above.


Why would they make decisions for their products based on person's ABX
results?


That's right! Just like you said that we shouldn't based our decisions in
Mr. Sean Olive's personal ABX test alone. Am I still correct with this ?


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive or
what ??

It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?


A difference that is audible, is a difference that is measurable.


I'm NOT asking about Mr. Sean Olive's excellent skills and ability in
determining whether the sound difference he heard was measurable
or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Mr. Sean Olive concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this mean
that he's hearing things ? _________________


Probably not, an ABX asks for the person to make a judgement on whcih DUT he
as listening to.



I wasn't talking about an ABX "testing." I was talking about
subjective evaluation. An instance where Mr. Sean Olives detect a
positive subtle difference that is audible to him, could this mean that he's
hearing things ?



Could you at least give Mr. Sean Olive the personal respect of admitting
that he heard a positive subtle difference while making subjective audio
evaluation over at Harman ?

Perhaps you need to do more research on what an ABX test actually is, then
you'd realize that your question is without meaning.


I wasn't talking about an objective testing.


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A. and,
towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive subtle
difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever. He
has far to much to lose.


I'm NOT asking whether Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a
DBT or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Michael Fremer concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this mean
that he's hearing things ? _________________


See above.


I wasn't talking about an audio test. I was talking about subjective
evaluation. An instance where Micahel Fremer admits to detecting
positive subtle differences that is audible to him. Could this mean that
he's hearing things ?



snip


Otherwise you'd not be allowed in.

Why?

Becasue you tend to be combative and impolite.

Yet, you became rude at the Rosa Parks thread unprovoke.

You said, " Um, because she's DEAD you idiot."

It was a stupid question.


The question was meant while she was still alive.

So what do you think if someone whom you thought was dignified
as her says that she could easily tell the subtle sound differences
among her hi-end audio components in her house ?

wrote:
"EddieM" wrote in message
m...
What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between
two components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there
in L.A. and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was
a positive subtle difference between the two, could this mean that
he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever.
He has far to much to lose.

More faith-based claims of omniscience, I note. Contrary to your
uninformed assertion, Mr. McKelvy (and those of Arny Krueger),
Michael Fremer has indeed taken part in double-blind tests. More,
I suspect, than you have :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"EddieM" wrote in message
m...
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

snip.


Unfortunately, none of the above 1,2,3, hocus-focus prove that ABX
is
a valid and effective means to confirm whether the subtle
differences
audiophiles hear physically exist or not.

Eddie, the man says it's one of a couple valid ways to test for
difference. Once again the world is amused at your incredible
blindness.

What if the subject for the test is none other than Howard Ferstler
who admits to having deeply held personal vendetta towards high-end
establishment going back in the late '70s, how would your man above
go about explaining that a no-difference Ferstler test result is valid
?

I feel very confident that a whole line of audio equipment is not going
to based on his results in an ABX test, nor any single person's
resu;ts.


Thank you for saying that. We must all feel very confident that sound
quality of audio equipments should not be based on an individual
ABX test such as from you, Mr. Sean Olive, and most especially not
from that ridiculous Howard Ferstler.


I thank you for concurring with what I said above, e.i., we should not
based our decision on an individual ABX test such as from "you",
Mr. Sean Olive, and Ferstler.



Anyway, if your man says it's one of the two valid ways to test for
differences, what makes you think it is so ?

Because Sean Olive is one of the foremost experts in the field of audio
research. Even Ludovic knows this to be true. He and Floyd Toole, who
also works at Harman, have done some of the best work in this area.

Yes, but we must remain confident, as you said, that sound quality of
audio equipments should not be based solely on their individual ABX
test. Yes, I fully agree with what you just said above.


Why would they make decisions for their products based on person's ABX
results?


That's right! Just like you said that we shouldn't based our decisions in
Mr. Sean Olive's personal ABX test alone. Am I still correct with this ?


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive
or what ??

It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?


A difference that is audible, is a difference that is measurable.


I'm NOT asking about Mr. Sean Olive's excellent skills and ability in
determining whether the sound difference he heard was measurable
or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Mr. Sean Olive
concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this
mean that he's hearing things ? _________________


Probably not, an ABX asks for the person to make a judgement on whcih DUT
he as listening to.



I wasn't talking about an ABX "testing." I was talking about
subjective evaluation. An instance where Mr. Sean Olives detect a
positive subtle difference that is audible to him, could this mean that
he's
hearing things ?



Could you at least give Mr. Sean Olive the personal respect of admitting
that he heard a positive subtle difference while making subjective audio
evaluation over at Harman ?

Perhaps you need to do more research on what an ABX test actually is,
then you'd realize that your question is without meaning.


I wasn't talking about an objective testing.


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A.
and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever.
He has far to much to lose.


I'm NOT asking whether Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a
DBT or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Michael Fremer
concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this
mean that he's hearing things ? _________________


See above.


I wasn't talking about an audio test. I was talking about subjective
evaluation. An instance where Micahel Fremer admits to detecting
positive subtle differences that is audible to him. Could this mean that
he's hearing things ?



snip


Otherwise you'd not be allowed in.

Why?

Becasue you tend to be combative and impolite.

Yet, you became rude at the Rosa Parks thread unprovoke.

You said, " Um, because she's DEAD you idiot."

It was a stupid question.


The question was meant while she was still alive.

So what do you think if someone whom you thought was dignified
as her says that she could easily tell the subtle sound differences
among her hi-end audio components in her house ?

What does dignity have to do with hearing?

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
"EddieM" wrote in message
m...
What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between
two components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there
in L.A. and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was
a positive subtle difference between the two, could this mean that
he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever.
He has far to much to lose.

More faith-based claims of omniscience, I note. Contrary to your
uninformed assertion, Mr. McKelvy (and those of Arny Krueger),
Michael Fremer has indeed taken part in double-blind tests. More,
I suspect, than you have :-)

Good for him. Now when will his hearing and sanity checks take place?

Does he still like to engage in scream fests when people disagree with him?

"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com

More faith-based claims of omniscience, I note. Contrary
to your uninformed assertion, Mr. McKelvy (and those of
Arny Krueger), Michael Fremer has indeed taken part in
double-blind tests.

If my position is uninformed, then the fault lies with John
Atkinson, because I just asked him about what DBTs the
Stereophile staffers have taken part in. The Google record
shows that Atkinson sloughed the question.

Furthermore, I asked my question as I did, because I knew
that Fremer had participated in the AES demo some decades
ago. Based on Fremer's hysterical behavior at the HE2005
debate, his tiny partincipation in the AES demo DBT
permanently unhinged the poor boy.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
oups.com

More faith-based claims of omniscience, I note. Contrary
to your uninformed assertion, Mr. McKelvy (and those of
Arny Krueger), Michael Fremer has indeed taken part in
double-blind tests.

If my position is uninformed, then the fault lies with John Atkinson,
because I just asked him about what DBTs the Stereophile staffers have
taken part in. The Google record shows that Atkinson sloughed the
question.

Furthermore, I asked my question as I did, because I knew that Fremer had
participated in the AES demo some decades ago. Based on Fremer's
hysterical behavior at the HE2005 debate, his tiny partincipation in the
AES demo DBT permanently unhinged the poor boy.

Was that demo before or after he had the screaming fit at Nousaine for
contradicting something Fremer had written?

wrote in message
nk.net...



What does dignity have to do with hearing?



They are both qualities that you lack.

nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

snip.



............snip


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive or
what ??

It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?


A difference that is audible, is a difference that is measurable.

I'm NOT asking about Mr. Sean Olive's excellent skills and ability in
determining whether the sound difference he heard was measurable
or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Mr. Sean Olive
concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this
mean that he's hearing things ? ____________

Probably not, an ABX asks for the person to make a judgement on whcih DUT
he as listening to.

I wasn't talking about an ABX "testing." I was talking about
subjective evaluation. An instance where Mr. Sean Olives detect a
positive subtle difference that is audible to him, could this mean that
he's hearing things ?

Could you at least give Mr. Sean Olive the personal respect of admitting
that he heard a positive subtle difference while making subjective audio
evaluation over at Harman ?

Perhaps you need to do more research on what an ABX test actually is, then
you'd realize that your question is without meaning.

I wasn't talking about an objective testing.


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A.
and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever. He
has far to much to lose.

I'm NOT asking whether Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a
DBT or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Michael Fremer
concluded that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him,
could this mean that he's hearing things ? ____________



Why are you neglecting in your reply to give forth sincere answer to the
easy questions to you above ? This cannot be. This is akin to
resigning your position in absence of any foreseeable danger.

If you have decided to, yet again, neatly but deeply tuck the tail
(and this is just my assumption) between the legs, surely Arnii would
welcome this fine opportunity and render his services in forcibly yanking
the said tail out of its seclusion.. Most likely, this type of services
would qualify for some excellent discounted rate among his ilk.





See above.


I wasn't talking about an audio test. I was talking about subjective
evaluation. An instance where Michael Fremer admits to detecting
positive subtle differences that is audible to him. Could this mean that
he's hearing things ?



Before, when someone admit to detecting subtle differences, you do
not hesitate to give your answer promptly, decisively, and conclusively.

But not anymore.

So, on the final ask, why don't you now answer the question. And that
rather simple question is :


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A.
and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?




snip


snip

So what do you think if someone whom you thought was dignified
as her says that she could easily tell the subtle sound differences
among her hi-end audio components in her house ?

What does dignity have to do with hearing?


There shouldn't be. And that is why I'm simply wondering why
you're not so forthright and tell what you think.

"EddieM" wrote in message
. ..
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

snip.



............snip


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive
or what ??

It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's
hearing things ?


A difference that is audible, is a difference that is measurable.

I'm NOT asking about Mr. Sean Olive's excellent skills and ability in
determining whether the sound difference he heard was measurable
or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Mr. Sean Olive
concluded
that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him, could this
mean that he's hearing things ? ____________

Probably not, an ABX asks for the person to make a judgement on whcih
DUT he as listening to.

I wasn't talking about an ABX "testing." I was talking about
subjective evaluation. An instance where Mr. Sean Olives detect a
positive subtle difference that is audible to him, could this mean that
he's hearing things ?

Could you at least give Mr. Sean Olive the personal respect of
admitting
that he heard a positive subtle difference while making subjective
audio
evaluation over at Harman ?

Perhaps you need to do more research on what an ABX test actually is,
then you'd realize that your question is without meaning.

I wasn't talking about an objective testing.


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between
two components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in
L.A. and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a
positive subtle difference between the two, could this mean that
he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever.
He has far to much to lose.

I'm NOT asking whether Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a
DBT or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Michael Fremer
concluded that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him,
could this mean that he's hearing things ? ____________



Why are you neglecting in your reply to give forth sincere answer to the
easy questions to you above ?

Did you miss the part where I said it's a stupid question?



This cannot be. This is akin to
resigning your position in absence of any foreseeable danger.

No, it's akin to not answering silly rhetorical questions.

If you have decided to, yet again, neatly but deeply tuck the tail
(and this is just my assumption) between the legs,

It's apharase you like to use when people don't behave the way you want them
too.

surely Arnii would
welcome this fine opportunity and render his services in forcibly yanking
the said tail out of its seclusion..

Why don't you forcibly yank your head from where ever it is and realize that
one person's score on an ABX test is relevant primarily for that one person.
If a person hears a difference, it can also be verified by measurements.

See above.


I wasn't talking about an audio test. I was talking about subjective
evaluation.

An audio test is a subjective evaluations.

An instance where Michael Fremer admits to detecting
positive subtle differences that is audible to him. Could this mean
that
he's hearing things ?

If it's a non-bias controlled, sighted, non-level matched one, almost
certainly yes. This would be true for anyone trying to determine anything
about subtle differences. If the differences are large enough and ABX test
is not really required. The problem is that many of the differences
reported tend to unexplainable when the equipment is measured.
Some people actually beleive that measurements, aren't revealing enough to
tell you what is true about a component.

Before, when someone admit to detecting subtle differences, you do
not hesitate to give your answer promptly, decisively, and conclusively.

But not anymore.

I have maintained for a very long time, that subtle differences are not
likely to be discovered by sighted listening.

So, on the final ask, why don't you now answer the question. And that
rather simple question is :


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A.
and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?

In the situation you describe, very likely, but again, the same would be
true for anyone doing that kind of listening.



So what do you think if someone whom you thought was dignified
as her says that she could easily tell the subtle sound differences
among her hi-end audio components in her house ?

What does dignity have to do with hearing?


There shouldn't be. And that is why I'm simply wondering why
you're not so forthright and tell what you think.

I did tell you what I think, several times.
You just don't like the answer.

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
"EddieM" wrote in message
m...
What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between
two components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there
in L.A. and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was
a positive subtle difference between the two, could this mean that
he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever.
He has far to much to lose.

More faith-based claims of omniscience, I note. Contrary to your
uninformed assertion, Mr. McKelvy (and those of Arny Krueger),
Michael Fremer has indeed taken part in double-blind tests. More,
I suspect, than you have :-)

Actually it wasn't faith based, it was just an assumption. Like many
people, yourself included, they can and are sometimes wrong.

nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote
EddieM wrote
nyob123 wrote


Mike:

snip.



............snip


Are you in love with this gentleman calling himself Mr. Sean Olive
or what ??

It's a matter of respect, no surpise you're unfamiliar with it.


He appears to be a solid R&D person. What if during a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there
at Harman, Mr. Sean Olive came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?


A difference that is audible, is a difference that is measurable.

I'm NOT asking about Mr. Sean Olive's excellent skills and ability in
determining whether the sound difference he heard was measurable
or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Mr. Sean Olive
concluded that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him,
could this mean that he's hearing things ? ____________

Probably not, an ABX asks for the person to make a judgement on whcih
DUT he as listening to.

I wasn't talking about an ABX "testing." I was talking about
subjective evaluation. An instance where Mr. Sean Olives detect a
positive subtle difference that is audible to him, could this mean that
he's hearing things ?

Could you at least give Mr. Sean Olive the personal respect of
admitting that he heard a positive subtle difference while making
subjective audio evaluation over at Harman ?

Perhaps you need to do more research on what an ABX test actually is,
then you'd realize that your question is without meaning.

I wasn't talking about an objective testing.

What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between
two components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in
L.A. and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a
positive subtle difference between the two, could this mean that
he's hearing things ?

I don't think Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a DBT ever.
He has far to much to lose.

I'm NOT asking whether Michael Fremer is ever going to sit through a
DBT or not.

I'm saying that, in the course of his evaluation, Michael Fremer
concluded that there was a positive subtle difference audible to him,
could this mean that he's hearing things ? ____________



Why are you neglecting in your reply to give forth sincere answer to the
easy questions to you above ?

Did you miss the part where I said it's a stupid question?

??

This cannot be. This is akin to
resigning your position in absence of any foreseeable danger.

No, it's akin to not answering silly rhetorical questions.

?


If you have decided to, yet again, neatly but deeply tuck the tail
(and this is just my assumption) between the legs,

It's apharase you like to use when people don't behave the way you want them
too.


Yes, I do not like the way you behave towards audiophiles. Particularly
to those that are newcomers to this hobby.


surely Arnii would
welcome this fine opportunity and render his services in forcibly yanking
the said tail out of its seclusion..

Why don't you forcibly yank your head from where ever it is and realize that
one person's score on an ABX test is relevant primarily for that one person.
If a person hears a difference, it can also be verified by measurements.


Oh, ok.... ;-) ;-)


See above.


I wasn't talking about an audio test. I was talking about subjective
evaluation.


An audio test is a subjective evaluations.



LoL !




An instance where Michael Fremer admits to detecting
positive subtle differences that is audible to him. Could this mean
that he's hearing things ?


If it's a non-bias controlled, sighted, non-level matched one, almost
certainly yes. This would be true for anyone trying to determine anything
about subtle differences. If the differences are large enough and ABX test
is not really required. The problem is that many of the differences
reported tend to unexplainable when the equipment is measured.
Some people actually beleive that measurements, aren't revealing enough to
tell you what is true about a component.


You know, you are confusing and misdirecting no one else here
but yourself.


Before, when someone admit to detecting subtle differences, you do
not hesitate to give your answer promptly, decisively, and conclusively.

But not anymore.

I have maintained for a very long time, that subtle differences are not
likely to be discovered by sighted listening.


But before, when someone admit to detecting subtle differences, you do
not hesitate to give your answer promptly, decisively, and conclusively

But this is no more.


So, on the final ask, why don't you now answer the question. And that
rather simple question is :


What if Michael Fremer carried out a Subjective Evaluation between two
components of equal class in a local audio saloon over there in L.A.
and, towards the end, he came to conclude that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two, could this mean that he's hearing
things ?


In the situation you describe, very likely, but again, the same would be
true for anyone doing that kind of listening.



YOU mean to tell me that if Mr. Sean Olive carried out a Subjective
Evaluation between two components of equal class over there at Harman
and that, towards the end, if he came to conclusion that there was a positive
subtle difference between the two then, according to you, he is very
likely hearing things ?



WHAT is the matter with you ?

WHAT is the matter with your head ?






So what do you think if someone whom you thought was dignified
as her says that she could easily tell the subtle sound differences
among her hi-end audio components in her house ?

What does dignity have to do with hearing?

There shouldn't be. And that is why I'm simply wondering why
you're not so forthright and tell what you think.

I did tell you what I think, several times.
You just don't like the answer.


You mean that it is "stupid" for someone dignified as Rosa Parks
to tell that they can hear subtle sound differences among their
hi-end audio components ?

Sean Olive, Manager Subjective Evaluation
R&D Group, Harman International
8500 Balboa Blvd., PO Box 2200
Northridge, CA, 91329