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  #81   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
ScottW ScottW is offline
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Posts: 3,253
Default Better Than ABX?


"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example, listen to
the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to? For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to B with
the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See how it
works?

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to it,
you know...

.
==========================
Jenn says:
You're not making sense.


Not to you, not to me, but yes, oh yes to Mr. Dizzy. What he's trying
to write down is that "serious thinkers' like Krueger and Dizzy thought
of your objection and decided to permit you to play A or B for as long
as you like.

Thus making absolutely certain that by the time you get to X you have
no idea what A and B sounded like and just to get rid of buzz-buzz you
put another random checkmark in one of the squares.

Result?: Your random guesses will average to 50/50 and another "they
all sound the same" outcome is assured.

But think of all the fun you had had. Think how much better a conductor
you will be after a few hours devoted to that product of serious
musical thinking.

Ludovic Mirabel


I was trying to figure out why Dizzy felt the need to say "I must say,
Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not." when I never claimed to be.
I was simply asking a question about something that I know nothing
about, and he felt the need to throw some snot. Well exCUSSSSSSSSSE ME!


If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc. People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.

ScottW



  #82   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Posts: 6,545
Default Better Than ABX?


ScottW a scris:


If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc. People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.

ScottW


First of all, there is no box, hence there is no source selector.
People are against ABX because it is a flawed BIASED test
masquerading as an unbiased test. It adreeses biases toward perceiving
a differance, and does not address biases toward not hearin a
difference.
There are three possible biases wehn listeningn to two pieces of
equipment. A will sound different/better than B, B will sound
different/better than A, or that they
will sound the same. Yet, the test has only two possible responses.,
not at all adressing the perception of sameness.

Not that it matters, we do not do our day to day listening in that test

environment, so, any result of such test is irrelevqnt towardes
normal sighted listening.

You are looking for a solution to a non existent problem.

  #83   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
Jenn Jenn is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,021
Default Better Than ABX?

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article . com,
" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example, listen to
the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to? For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to B
with
the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See how
it
works?

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to it,
you know...

.
==========================
Jenn says:
You're not making sense.

Not to you, not to me, but yes, oh yes to Mr. Dizzy. What he's trying
to write down is that "serious thinkers' like Krueger and Dizzy thought
of your objection and decided to permit you to play A or B for as long
as you like.

Thus making absolutely certain that by the time you get to X you have
no idea what A and B sounded like and just to get rid of buzz-buzz you
put another random checkmark in one of the squares.

Result?: Your random guesses will average to 50/50 and another "they
all sound the same" outcome is assured.

But think of all the fun you had had. Think how much better a conductor
you will be after a few hours devoted to that product of serious
musical thinking.

Ludovic Mirabel


I was trying to figure out why Dizzy felt the need to say "I must say,
Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not." when I never claimed to be.
I was simply asking a question about something that I know nothing
about, and he felt the need to throw some snot. Well exCUSSSSSSSSSE ME!


If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they
should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc.


That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?
  #84   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
ScottW ScottW is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,253
Default Better Than ABX?


"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
ups.com...

ScottW a scris:


If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they
should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc. People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.

ScottW


First of all, there is no box, hence there is no source selector.


Whats this (as one simple example)?

http://sound.westhost.com/abx-tester.htm

People are against ABX because it is a flawed BIASED test
masquerading as an unbiased test. It adreeses biases toward perceiving
a differance, and does not address biases toward not hearin a
difference.


People are biased toward hearing differences where none exist.

I don't know where these other biases toward not hearing a difference
come from.

There are three possible biases wehn listeningn to two pieces of
equipment. A will sound different/better than B, B will sound
different/better than A, or that they
will sound the same. Yet, the test has only two possible responses.,


Eliminate the preference question and the first two possibilities become
one. You have 2 possibilities and 2 possible responses.

not at all adressing the perception of sameness.


Sorry Art...what you describe is not an ABX test.
That a simple AB test as described here.
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/ba...l_thinking.htm

which does talk some about the difference bias.

I've never seen anyone indicate people are biased towards sameness.


Not that it matters, we do not do our day to day listening in that test

environment, so, any result of such test is irrelevqnt towardes
normal sighted listening.

You are looking for a solution to a non existent problem.


From a consumer perspective I don't see a problem.
As a product developer/tester or researcher...there are questions
and unanswered questions usually pose a problem.
I'm not ever going to argue that AB or ABX are necessary
or even useful (worth the effort) for consumers.

ScottW


  #85   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
ScottW ScottW is offline
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Posts: 3,253
Default Better Than ABX?


"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article . com,
" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example, listen to
the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to? For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to B
with
the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See how
it
works?

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to it,
you know...

.
==========================
Jenn says:
You're not making sense.

Not to you, not to me, but yes, oh yes to Mr. Dizzy. What he's trying
to write down is that "serious thinkers' like Krueger and Dizzy thought
of your objection and decided to permit you to play A or B for as long
as you like.

Thus making absolutely certain that by the time you get to X you have
no idea what A and B sounded like and just to get rid of buzz-buzz you
put another random checkmark in one of the squares.

Result?: Your random guesses will average to 50/50 and another "they
all sound the same" outcome is assured.

But think of all the fun you had had. Think how much better a conductor
you will be after a few hours devoted to that product of serious
musical thinking.

Ludovic Mirabel

I was trying to figure out why Dizzy felt the need to say "I must say,
Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not." when I never claimed to be.
I was simply asking a question about something that I know nothing
about, and he felt the need to throw some snot. Well exCUSSSSSSSSSE ME!


If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they
should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc.


That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


To "the question" . It does get kind of amusing at times that people
will argue passionately on the validity of the solution while they
obviously fundamentally haven't agreed on what is "the question".

Should I dare pose my idea of "the question"?
But that might settle this issue for all time...and then what would
RAO be?

ScottW




  #86   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
Jenn Jenn is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,021
Default Better Than ABX?

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article . com,
" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example, listen
to
the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to?
For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to B
with
the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See
how
it
works?

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not
be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to
it,
you know...

.
==========================
Jenn says:
You're not making sense.

Not to you, not to me, but yes, oh yes to Mr. Dizzy. What he's trying
to write down is that "serious thinkers' like Krueger and Dizzy thought
of your objection and decided to permit you to play A or B for as long
as you like.

Thus making absolutely certain that by the time you get to X you have
no idea what A and B sounded like and just to get rid of buzz-buzz you
put another random checkmark in one of the squares.

Result?: Your random guesses will average to 50/50 and another "they
all sound the same" outcome is assured.

But think of all the fun you had had. Think how much better a conductor
you will be after a few hours devoted to that product of serious
musical thinking.

Ludovic Mirabel

I was trying to figure out why Dizzy felt the need to say "I must say,
Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not." when I never claimed to be.
I was simply asking a question about something that I know nothing
about, and he felt the need to throw some snot. Well exCUSSSSSSSSSE ME!

If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they
should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc.


That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


To "the question" . It does get kind of amusing at times that people
will argue passionately on the validity of the solution while they
obviously fundamentally haven't agreed on what is "the question".

Should I dare pose my idea of "the question"?


Why not?
  #87   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
George M. Middius George M. Middius is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,173
Default Better Than ABX?



Jenn said:

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


To "the question" .
Should I dare pose my idea of "the question"?


Why not?



I'll tell you why not: Because we're getting dangerously close to
Krooglishland. Questions don't have "solutions", they have answers.
Problems have solutions.



--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.
  #88   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
ScottW ScottW is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,253
Default Better Than ABX?


"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article . com,
" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example, listen
to
the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to?
For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to B
with
the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See
how
it
works?

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not
be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to
it,
you know...

.
==========================
Jenn says:
You're not making sense.

Not to you, not to me, but yes, oh yes to Mr. Dizzy. What he's trying
to write down is that "serious thinkers' like Krueger and Dizzy thought
of your objection and decided to permit you to play A or B for as long
as you like.

Thus making absolutely certain that by the time you get to X you have
no idea what A and B sounded like and just to get rid of buzz-buzz you
put another random checkmark in one of the squares.

Result?: Your random guesses will average to 50/50 and another "they
all sound the same" outcome is assured.

But think of all the fun you had had. Think how much better a conductor
you will be after a few hours devoted to that product of serious
musical thinking.

Ludovic Mirabel

I was trying to figure out why Dizzy felt the need to say "I must say,
Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not." when I never claimed to be.
I was simply asking a question about something that I know nothing
about, and he felt the need to throw some snot. Well exCUSSSSSSSSSE ME!

If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they
should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.

Solutions to what?


To "the question" . It does get kind of amusing at times that people
will argue passionately on the validity of the solution while they
obviously fundamentally haven't agreed on what is "the question".

Should I dare pose my idea of "the question"?


Why not?


What is a valid test protocol for demonstrating audio components
may be audibly different?

Here is where the discussion always deviates....people ignore
may and substitute 'will' which is a question that IMO can't be answered.
Taken to extreme...how would any two components be audibly different
to a stone deaf person?....So should we substitute for the majority of
average hearing acuity people? What is that?...Should age group
be a factor?....Probably. Suddenly posing the question properly
is just as arduous a task as arguing the solution...and apparently
a lot less fun.

ScottW


  #89   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
[email protected] elmir2m@shaw.ca is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 818
Default Better Than ABX?


ScottW wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article . com,
" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example, listen
to
the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to?
For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to B
with
the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See
how
it
works?

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not
be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to
it,
you know...

.
==========================
Jenn says:
You're not making sense.

Not to you, not to me, but yes, oh yes to Mr. Dizzy. What he's trying
to write down is that "serious thinkers' like Krueger and Dizzy thought
of your objection and decided to permit you to play A or B for as long
as you like.

Thus making absolutely certain that by the time you get to X you have
no idea what A and B sounded like and just to get rid of buzz-buzz you
put another random checkmark in one of the squares.

Result?: Your random guesses will average to 50/50 and another "they
all sound the same" outcome is assured.

But think of all the fun you had had. Think how much better a conductor
you will be after a few hours devoted to that product of serious
musical thinking.

Ludovic Mirabel

I was trying to figure out why Dizzy felt the need to say "I must say,
Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not." when I never claimed to be.
I was simply asking a question about something that I know nothing
about, and he felt the need to throw some snot. Well exCUSSSSSSSSSE ME!

If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they
should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.

Solutions to what?

To "the question" . It does get kind of amusing at times that people
will argue passionately on the validity of the solution while they
obviously fundamentally haven't agreed on what is "the question".

Should I dare pose my idea of "the question"?


Why not?


What is a valid test protocol for demonstrating audio components
may be audibly different?

Here is where the discussion always deviates....people ignore
may and substitute 'will' which is a question that IMO can't be answered.
Taken to extreme...how would any two components be audibly different
to a stone deaf person?....So should we substitute for the majority of
average hearing acuity people? What is that?...Should age group
be a factor?....Probably. Suddenly posing the question properly
is just as arduous a task as arguing the solution...and apparently
a lot less fun.

ScottW

==========================================
I agree with Middius. Before you write down a question you need to
define the problem
And the problem seems to me to be incapable of any useful definition.

ScootW asks his question:

" What is a valid test protocol for demonstrating audio components
may be audibly different?


Snag Nr. 1. Does anyone here in rec. audio.opinion want just to know
if it is "different" or does he want to hear that it is to decide which
one he/she likes better?

Snag Nr. 2 Which components sound "audibly different" to which
listeners?
I probably will not hear much difference between one boom-box car
"system" and another. The difference may be glaring to a young car
audio lover.
{ And if I hear the difference it will be outwighed by the
overwhelming perception that both are intolerable.)

Vice versa for the guy next to me at a red lightr proudly rattling my
car windows should he ever listen to my selections for comparison he'd
feel they are all equally boring.

Similarly glaring differences between flutes heard by Jenn will be a
closed book to me.

There is no "test protocol" for hearing differences or for liking and
disliking. There are only people. All different.. I
You say (do you?) that a "test protocol" would help each one of us
decide. Perhaps. It is is a subject for research not for affirmation.
My inclination is to say that the "test protocol" would have to vary as
much as we humans do to accomodate old and young, males and females,
chamber music performers and rock-group singers.

Putting everyone in a PET Scan box while comparing sounds a shade more
promising. I can think of quite a few candidates.

I know that to many engineers what I say will sound typically untidy.
There are the fundamental aptitude differences between the humanistic
and the technological minds..Booth are needed in their right place.
Ludovic Mirabel

  #90   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
ScottW ScottW is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,253
Default Better Than ABX?


wrote in message
ps.com...

ScottW wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article . com,
" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example,
listen
to
the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to?
For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to
B
with
the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See
how
it
works?

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it
not
be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not"
and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given
to
it,
you know...

.
==========================
Jenn says:
You're not making sense.

Not to you, not to me, but yes, oh yes to Mr. Dizzy. What he's
trying
to write down is that "serious thinkers' like Krueger and Dizzy
thought
of your objection and decided to permit you to play A or B for as
long
as you like.

Thus making absolutely certain that by the time you get to X you
have
no idea what A and B sounded like and just to get rid of buzz-buzz
you
put another random checkmark in one of the squares.

Result?: Your random guesses will average to 50/50 and another "they
all sound the same" outcome is assured.

But think of all the fun you had had. Think how much better a
conductor
you will be after a few hours devoted to that product of serious
musical thinking.

Ludovic Mirabel

I was trying to figure out why Dizzy felt the need to say "I must
say,
Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not." when I never claimed to
be.
I was simply asking a question about something that I know nothing
about, and he felt the need to throw some snot. Well exCUSSSSSSSSSE
ME!

If the listener has control of the source selector...which IMO, they
should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're looking for excuses.

Solutions to what?

To "the question" . It does get kind of amusing at times that people
will argue passionately on the validity of the solution while they
obviously fundamentally haven't agreed on what is "the question".

Should I dare pose my idea of "the question"?

Why not?


What is a valid test protocol for demonstrating audio components
may be audibly different?

Here is where the discussion always deviates....people ignore
may and substitute 'will' which is a question that IMO can't be answered.
Taken to extreme...how would any two components be audibly different
to a stone deaf person?....So should we substitute for the majority of
average hearing acuity people? What is that?...Should age group
be a factor?....Probably. Suddenly posing the question properly
is just as arduous a task as arguing the solution...and apparently
a lot less fun.

ScottW

==========================================
I agree with Middius. Before you write down a question you need to
define the problem
And the problem seems to me to be incapable of any useful definition.


Useful is subjective.


ScootW asks his question:

" What is a valid test protocol for demonstrating audio components
may be audibly different?


Snag Nr. 1. Does anyone here in rec. audio.opinion want just to know
if it is "different" or does he want to hear that it is to decide which
one he/she likes better?


Defiinetely the latter...but as Olive demonstrated...the first
step is subjective and objective different.


Snag Nr. 2 Which components sound "audibly different" to which
listeners?


Definitely a significant problem in posing the question as I pointed
out.

I probably will not hear much difference between one boom-box car
"system" and another. The difference may be glaring to a young car
audio lover.
{ And if I hear the difference it will be outwighed by the
overwhelming perception that both are intolerable.)

Vice versa for the guy next to me at a red lightr proudly rattling my
car windows should he ever listen to my selections for comparison he'd
feel they are all equally boring.

Similarly glaring differences between flutes heard by Jenn will be a
closed book to me.

There is no "test protocol" for hearing differences or for liking and
disliking. There are only people. All different.. I
You say (do you?) that a "test protocol" would help each one of us
decide.


Was that part of "the question"? Not as I posed it.

Perhaps. It is is a subject for research not for affirmation.


Agreed.

My inclination is to say that the "test protocol" would have to vary as
much as we humans do to accomodate old and young, males and females,
chamber music performers and rock-group singers.


Agreed.


Putting everyone in a PET Scan box while comparing sounds a shade more
promising. I can think of quite a few candidates.

I know that to many engineers what I say will sound typically untidy.


Test protocols are always untidy in the compromises they invariable
must accept.

There are the fundamental aptitude differences between the humanistic
and the technological minds..Booth are needed in their right place.


It is a bit interesting when one becomes so dismissive of the other
while both are codependent.

ScottW




  #91   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.opinion
Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,545
Default Better Than ABX?


ScottW a scris:

People are against ABX because it is a flawed BIASED test
masquerading as an unbiased test. It adreeses biases toward perceiving
a differance, and does not address biases toward not hearin a
difference.


People are biased toward hearing differences where none exist.


That statement is a reflectioon of your particular bias.

I don't know where these other biases toward not hearing a difference
come from.


for one example, a certain professiomal audio clown.





There are three possible biases wehn listeningn to two pieces of
equipment. A will sound different/better than B, B will sound
different/better than A, or that they
will sound the same. Yet, the test has only two possible responses.,


Eliminate the preference question and the first two possibilities become
one. You have 2 possibilities and 2 possible responses.


No
the third response is "I can't tell if it is A or b"



not at all adressing the perception of sameness.


Sorry Art...what you describe is not an ABX test.
That a simple AB test as described here.
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/ba...l_thinking.htm

which does talk some about the difference bias.

I've never seen anyone indicate people are biased towards sameness.


right, if you don't consider borgs to be people.




Not that it matters, we do not do our day to day listening in that test

environment, so, any result of such test is irrelevqnt towardes
normal sighted listening.

You are looking for a solution to a non existent problem.


From a consumer perspective I don't see a problem.
As a product developer/tester or researcher...there are questions
and unanswered questions usually pose a problem.
I'm not ever going to argue that AB or ABX are necessary
or even useful (worth the effort) for consumers.

ScottW


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Clyde Slick said:

People are against ABX because it is a flawed BIASED test
masquerading as an unbiased test. It adreeses biases toward perceiving
a differance, and does not address biases toward not hearin a
difference.


People are biased toward hearing differences where none exist.


That statement is a reflectioon of your particular bias.


You do realize that Scooter has never tried an aBxism box for himself,
right? Moreover, he's never seen one demonstrated, or even been in the
same room with one. Like a lot of simple-minded people, Scottie
Terrierborg likes to worship imaginary gods, and he has chosen the aBxism
deity as his favorite one.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.
  #93   Report Post  
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dizzy dizzy is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example, listen to the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to? For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to B with the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See how it
works?


Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to it,
you know...


You're not making sense.


Think harder, Jenn.

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dippy the Kroopologist said:

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to it,
you know...


You're not making sense.


Think harder, Jenn.


Before you wade any further into this snakepit, Jenn, you might want to
ask dippy to describe his (no doubt) vast hands-on experience with aBxism
rituals. The last time he went into his aBxism apologia, I asked him just
that several times. He chose to withhold details of the origins of his
impressive first-hand knowledge of the infallible aBxism box even though I
asked him several times. I leaped ;-) to the conclusion that dippy, like
his fellow travelers Sillybot, duh-Mikey, BozoBorg, and the rest of them,
was simply worshipping an imaginary god.

Maybe if you ask him, the missing information will be forthcoming.






--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:


If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage
listening,
music, pink noise, etc.


That seems like a positive.


People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.




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The Krooborg shoves aside the amateur preachers and takes hold of the
pulpit.

ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.


Only to a 'borg is being human a "problem".





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.
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Default Better Than ABX?


George M. Middius wrote:
The Krooborg shoves aside the amateur preachers and takes hold of the
pulpit.

ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.


Only to a 'borg is being human a "problem".
-
Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.


-------------------------------------------------------

Next question: what kind of listener? A 16 year old heavy metal fan or
a fifty year old violinist? And next: what kind of bias? Bias in favour
of drumming that is music in the deepest Camerrons? Or for Sunday choir
singing? Or for the expensive ? Or for the cheapest, because "they all
sound the same anyway".
Continue as your fancy dictates. If you carry on long enough you'll
arrive at a faith and a awitching amulet to fit.
Ludovic Mirabel

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Jenn Jenn is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:


If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage
listening,
music, pink noise, etc.


That seems like a positive.


People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.


From a consumer POV it doesn't seem like a good solution.
  #99   Report Post  
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Jenn Jenn is offline
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Posts: 3,021
Default Better Than ABX?

In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

When participating in an ABX test, can one, for example, listen to the
same passage of music for as long a period as one wishes to? For
example, can you listen to A for, say, 5 min, then listen to B with
the
same passage of music?

I must say, Jenn, you're really up on the subject. Not.

I must say, Dizzy, that's why I asked the damned question. See how it
works?

Well, really, Jenn. If such a thing were not allowed, would it not be
rather easy to attack the process with questions like "why not" and
"what are you afraid of"? Some serious thought has been given to it,
you know...


You're not making sense.


Think harder, Jenn.


Rather than attempting a juvenile insult, simply read the above. Allow
me to summarize for you:

1. There is a discussion about ABX testing.
2. Knowing virtually nothing about such testing (and never claiming to
know anything about it), I ask a simple question: "When participating
in an ABX test....")
3. You make a childish statement: "I must say, Jenn you're really up on
the subject. Not."
4. Dismayed at why you would do such a thing, I retort with: "I must
say, Dizzy...."
5. You then reply with something totally off topic to my point that I'm
simply asking a question about ABX, am trying to learn, and wondering
why you feel the need to throw snot: "If such a thing were not
allowed...."
6. I tell you, accurately, that you're not making sense. You then
throw more snot.

PLEASE tell me that you're not responsible for teaching anybody anything.
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Default Better Than ABX?


George M. Middius a scris:
Clyde Slick said:

People are against ABX because it is a flawed BIASED test
masquerading as an unbiased test. It adreeses biases toward perceiving
a differance, and does not address biases toward not hearin a
difference.


People are biased toward hearing differences where none exist.


That statement is a reflectioon of your particular bias.


You do realize that Scooter has never tried an aBxism box for himself,
right? Moreover, he's never seen one demonstrated, or even been in the
same room with one. Like a lot of simple-minded people, Scottie
Terrierborg likes to worship imaginary gods, and he has chosen the aBxism
deity as his favorite one.

I yusta pray to WMATA, my particular commuter God.




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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?


Arny Krueger a scris:

ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.


Damn best stain remover I ever used.
You ought to box it up and sell it.

  #102   Report Post  
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ScottW ScottW is offline
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Posts: 3,253
Default Better Than ABX?


George M. Middius wrote:
Clyde Slick said:

People are against ABX because it is a flawed BIASED test
masquerading as an unbiased test. It adreeses biases toward perceiving
a differance, and does not address biases toward not hearin a
difference.


People are biased toward hearing differences where none exist.


That statement is a reflectioon of your particular bias.


You do realize that Scooter has never tried an aBxism box for himself,
right? Moreover, he's never seen one demonstrated, or even been in the
same room with one. Like a lot of simple-minded people, Scottie
Terrierborg likes to worship imaginary gods, and he has chosen the aBxism
deity as his favorite one.


This is George's particular form of racist accusation.

ScottW

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ScottW ScottW is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?


Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:


If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage
listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.


People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.


From a consumer POV it doesn't seem like a good solution.


From a consumer POV....is there a problem needing a solution?


ScottW

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Clyde Slick Clyde Slick is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?


ScottW a scris:


This is George's particular form of racist accusation.


Borgs aren't a race. They aren't even a species.

  #105   Report Post  
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Jenn Jenn is offline
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Posts: 3,021
Default Better Than ABX?

In article .com,
"ScottW" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

.com
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage
listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.

Solutions to what?

ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.


From a consumer POV it doesn't seem like a good solution.


From a consumer POV....is there a problem needing a solution?


ScottW


Good question.


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The fur is flying now.

Like a lot of simple-minded people, Scottie Terrierborg likes to worship
imaginary gods, and he has chosen the aBxism deity as his favorite one.


This is George's particular form of racist accusation.


I'm guessing this is the comment you responded to, Scooter. Three
questions:

1. Since when are the simple-minded a "race"?

2. Would you volunteer for euthanasia in order to raise the human race's
collective IQ?

3. Why did you beg and plead for me to killfile you if you still want to
do your simple-minded version of bantering with me?

Borgs aren't a race. They aren't even a species.


They're species-blind. They even assimilate socially retarded nerds.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.
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[email protected] elmir2m@shaw.ca is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?


Jenn wrote:
In article .com,
"ScottW" wrote:

Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

.com
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage
listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.

Solutions to what?

ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.

From a consumer POV it doesn't seem like a good solution.


From a consumer POV....is there a problem needing a solution?


ScottW


Good question.


==================================
ScottW/ Jenn exchange:
From a consumer POV....is there a problem needing a solution?


ScottW


Good question. Jenn


Indeed. I think of quite a few more problems needing a solution.

Most consumers can only listen to one piece of music at a time. My
companmy produces a switch that will allow three. This is work in
progress. Next edition will cost more.

Famous performers fill concert halls. Less known play to half empty
auditoriums. The solution is so obvious that I'm not even going to
write it down.

Most consumers differ in their choice of shoes. Many years ago that
wasteful model was remedied in the defunct Soviet Union. Rationalising
production the left foot shoes became unobtainable out of Moscow.
Regrettably it lasted a few weeks only due to transport problems.
Solution ?: a pass to visit Moscow was instituted...

For more solutions (and problems) write to:
Ludovic Mirabel

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Default Better Than ABX?

Jenn wrote:

Rather than attempting a juvenile insult, simply read the above. Allow
me to summarize for you:


Why "summarize" something that we can all easily read for ourselves,
Jenn? Oh, right, you want to put your bias on every point.

1. There is a discussion about ABX testing.
2. Knowing virtually nothing about such testing (and never claiming to
know anything about it), I ask a simple question: "When participating
in an ABX test....")
3. You make a childish statement: "I must say, Jenn you're really up on
the subject. Not."


I felt you deserved it, Jenn. Anyone who argues about audio issues as
much as you do should be more informed before they spout-off.

4. Dismayed at why you would do such a thing, I retort with: "I must
say, Dizzy...."
5. You then reply with something totally off topic to my point that I'm
simply asking a question about ABX,


Wrong.

am trying to learn, and wondering
why you feel the need to throw snot: "If such a thing were not
allowed...."
6. I tell you, accurately,


Nope. Not accurate at all, Jenn.

that you're not making sense.


Think harder.

You then throw more snot.


How ironic.

PLEASE tell me that you're not responsible for teaching anybody anything.


My "classes" are too advanced for you, Jenn.

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[email protected] elmir2m@shaw.ca is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?


dizzy wrote:
Jenn wrote:

Rather than attempting a juvenile insult, simply read the above. Allow
me to summarize for you:


Why "summarize" something that we can all easily read for ourselves,
Jenn? Oh, right, you want to put your bias on every point.

1. There is a discussion about ABX testing.
2. Knowing virtually nothing about such testing (and never claiming to
know anything about it), I ask a simple question: "When participating
in an ABX test....")
3. You make a childish statement: "I must say, Jenn you're really up on
the subject. Not."


I felt you deserved it, Jenn. Anyone who argues about audio issues as
much as you do should be more informed before they spout-off.

4. Dismayed at why you would do such a thing, I retort with: "I must
say, Dizzy...."
5. You then reply with something totally off topic to my point that I'm
simply asking a question about ABX,


Wrong.

am trying to learn, and wondering
why you feel the need to throw snot: "If such a thing were not
allowed...."
6. I tell you, accurately,


Nope. Not accurate at all, Jenn.

that you're not making sense.


Think harder.

You then throw more snot.


How ironic.

PLEASE tell me that you're not responsible for teaching anybody anything.


My "classes" are too advanced for you, Jenn.


===============================

Mr. Dizzy says:

My "classes" are too advanced for you, Jenn.


You're latew Mr. Dizzy. The "Gulliver amongst the Liliputs" seat is
already claimed by Mr. Arnold Krueger..
You two mental giants need to settle that between you.
Ludovic Mirabel

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Harry Lavo Harry Lavo is offline
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Posts: 1,243
Default Better Than ABX?


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:


If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage
listening,
music, pink noise, etc.


That seems like a positive.


People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.



Let's try to make it accurate, Arny. ABX is a solution to the well-known
problem of postitive listener differentiation bias, when using test signals
and artifacts on which the respondent has been trained and proven to be
reliable in differentiating. That is what ABX is.

Here is what it is not.

IT IS NOT a test that eliminates negative listener differentiation bias
(who'd ever think *anybody* might have such biases)
IT IS NOT a test that can be run without listener training (absolutely
essential, and the antithesis of open-ended evaluation)
IT IS NOT a test that everybody can validly use (only roughly half qualify
at H-K)
IT IS NOT a test for proving some sound difference *doesn't* exist (can't
prove a negative, and not designed to)
IT IS NOT a test that has been verified to be valid when used for open-ended
evaluation of the performance of audio components reproducing music
(open-ended listening cannot be reduced to a single artifact for training).

Furthermore,:

ABX *IS* a test that, in order to do open-ended, direct evaluation of audio
components, must be run with an ABX box that is no longer available, and
whose contacts may/may not audibly influence the sound

AND ABX *IS NOT* a program that can be run on a computer to do open-ended
evaluation of actual components in use.

Since Scotties challenge I have thought long and hard about ABX and how it
is used/can be usefully used in product development (which I have a
background in, although only briefly in the audio field). Here is what I
have concluded:

Scientific research:

ABX may have great value in the audiometric field, where it was first used
in audio, in order to determine human threasholds for various forms of
distortion, including compression artifacts. It is best used and most
sensitive with test signals to which listeners can be trained. Even so, a
careful screening of panel member is required. Within these conditions, it
serves as a useful research tool...for scientiific inquiry.

ABX has very little value in the actual development of audio gear. I've
examined the process from several different angels and have concluded it
would be useful only in a few cases. Consider these common development
scenarios:

Practical Development Efforts:

* The manufacturer cost reduces a product by substituting cheaper parts or
redesigning a circuit and wants to know if anybody can hear a difference.
How do you train for "no difference". How do you screen out poor
performers. Can it prove a difference doesnt' exist. No. While some abx
testing might give the manufacture some comfort level if all subjects failed
to differentiate, the test cannot conclusively prove a negative and cannot
even be well-run.

* Ditto for the manufacturer who wants to make a spot-on copy of an existing
competive product. Same caveat as above.

* The manufacture has a new hotshot development engineer/team who completely
redesigns a product. And the maufacture wants to know if the product is
perceived as better (it had better be, else why spend all that money). In
this case, the manufacturer would want to know if their is a difference, but
he would much more want to know prefernces that subsume differences. He'd
want to know overall preference between old and new, and perhaps between new
and some of the competition. He'd not only want to know the extent of
preference, he'd also want to examine the reasons for preference among those
who preferred the old, and among those who preferred the new. This requires
a preference test, which would almost certainly be used instead of an
abx-style differentiation test.

* I can't think of an instance where a manufacturer would deliberately
engineer in a change, and want to know after the fact if it "made a
difference" as opposed to "making the product cheaper or better". In other
words, the list is exhausted except for almost pure research purposes. And
only the Harmon Group and perhaps Panasonic and Sony are large enough to
finance such research commercially.

Practical Open-Ended Evaluation of Audio Components

* The purchaser doesn't really want to buy something "different", they want
to buy something if it sounds "better" to them. This requires a preference
test. If the purchasers doesn't want to trust his sighted judgement, he can
set up a blind or double-blind preference test assuming he can get som
assistance, and it will actually be slightly simpler than the abx test.
Most consumers will forego such rigourous testing on the basis that they can
live with any sighted bias and possitive differentiation bias, and that the
more rigorous test is too demaning of time and manpower resources to be
worthile. This is doubtless helped by the fact that most audio consumers
don't spend a fortune (relative to their income) on their equipment,
particularly if they upgrade over time. ABX testing has virtually no useful
roll to play in this case, as it is even more cumbersome than a double-blind
preference test and provides little or no more in the way of practical and
useful information. This assumes, of course, that it has first been actually
validated for the purpose of open-ended auditioning of audio components
playing music. In addition, an ABX test requires training on the artifacts
to be differentiated, and this won't initially be known in open-ended
testing.

Use of ABX by Reviewers

* ABX might be useful for reviewers in an occassional *validation* mode
(again if it is itself validated first). But it is far to cumbersome to be
used on an ongoing basis for the same reasons as outlined above for
consumers.




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Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! is offline
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Default Better Than ABX?


ScottW wrote:
George M. Middius wrote:
Clyde Slick said:

People are against ABX because it is a flawed BIASED test
masquerading as an unbiased test. It adreeses biases toward perceiving
a differance, and does not address biases toward not hearin a
difference.


People are biased toward hearing differences where none exist.


That statement is a reflectioon of your particular bias.


You do realize that Scooter has never tried an aBxism box for himself,
right? Moreover, he's never seen one demonstrated, or even been in the
same room with one. Like a lot of simple-minded people, Scottie
Terrierborg likes to worship imaginary gods, and he has chosen the aBxism
deity as his favorite one.


This is George's particular form of racist accusation.


There is a difference, toopid.

I laugh all of the time at your ignorance. I do not know what your IQ
is. I laugh all of the time at your religiosity. I do not know what
religion you are (although you claim not to be religious, your
attitudes show that you actually are, whether you admit it to yourself
or not).

Is this racism, or simply laughing at a well-known buffoon?

I think most see it as the latter.

LOL!

Moron.

________________________________________

toopid (n. Woefully Dense): a pitiful, bigoted, unsuccessful little man
with fatal mental and cognitive issues who is prone to emotional
meltdowns. He cannot distinguish between illogic and emotional appeal.
He tries ever-so-hard to play with the big boys but is unsuccessful in
that, too.

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Default Better Than ABX?


Harry Lavo wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:


If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum comfort
with their selection...quick switch, long passage
listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.


People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener bias.



Let's try to make it accurate, Arny. ABX is a solution to the well-known
problem of postitive listener differentiation bias, when using test signals
and artifacts on which the respondent has been trained and proven to be
reliable in differentiating. That is what ABX is.

Here is what it is not.

IT IS NOT a test that eliminates negative listener differentiation bias
(who'd ever think *anybody* might have such biases)
IT IS NOT a test that can be run without listener training (absolutely
essential, and the antithesis of open-ended evaluation)
IT IS NOT a test that everybody can validly use (only roughly half qualify
at H-K)
IT IS NOT a test for proving some sound difference *doesn't* exist (can't
prove a negative, and not designed to)
IT IS NOT a test that has been verified to be valid when used for open-ended
evaluation of the performance of audio components reproducing music
(open-ended listening cannot be reduced to a single artifact for training).

Furthermore,:

ABX *IS* a test that, in order to do open-ended, direct evaluation of audio
components, must be run with an ABX box that is no longer available, and
whose contacts may/may not audibly influence the sound

AND ABX *IS NOT* a program that can be run on a computer to do open-ended
evaluation of actual components in use.

Since Scotties challenge I have thought long and hard about ABX and how it
is used/can be usefully used in product development (which I have a
background in, although only briefly in the audio field). Here is what I
have concluded:

Scientific research:

ABX may have great value in the audiometric field, where it was first used
in audio, in order to determine human threasholds for various forms of
distortion, including compression artifacts. It is best used and most
sensitive with test signals to which listeners can be trained. Even so, a
careful screening of panel member is required. Within these conditions, it
serves as a useful research tool...for scientiific inquiry.

ABX has very little value in the actual development of audio gear. I've
examined the process from several different angels and have concluded it
would be useful only in a few cases. Consider these common development
scenarios:

Practical Development Efforts:

* The manufacturer cost reduces a product by substituting cheaper parts or
redesigning a circuit and wants to know if anybody can hear a difference.
How do you train for "no difference". How do you screen out poor
performers. Can it prove a difference doesnt' exist. No. While some abx
testing might give the manufacture some comfort level if all subjects failed
to differentiate, the test cannot conclusively prove a negative and cannot
even be well-run.

* Ditto for the manufacturer who wants to make a spot-on copy of an existing
competive product. Same caveat as above.

* The manufacture has a new hotshot development engineer/team who completely
redesigns a product. And the maufacture wants to know if the product is
perceived as better (it had better be, else why spend all that money). In
this case, the manufacturer would want to know if their is a difference, but
he would much more want to know prefernces that subsume differences. He'd
want to know overall preference between old and new, and perhaps between new
and some of the competition. He'd not only want to know the extent of
preference, he'd also want to examine the reasons for preference among those
who preferred the old, and among those who preferred the new. This requires
a preference test, which would almost certainly be used instead of an
abx-style differentiation test.

* I can't think of an instance where a manufacturer would deliberately
engineer in a change, and want to know after the fact if it "made a
difference" as opposed to "making the product cheaper or better". In other
words, the list is exhausted except for almost pure research purposes. And
only the Harmon Group and perhaps Panasonic and Sony are large enough to
finance such research commercially.

Practical Open-Ended Evaluation of Audio Components

* The purchaser doesn't really want to buy something "different", they want
to buy something if it sounds "better" to them. This requires a preference
test. If the purchasers doesn't want to trust his sighted judgement, he can
set up a blind or double-blind preference test assuming he can get som
assistance, and it will actually be slightly simpler than the abx test.
Most consumers will forego such rigourous testing on the basis that they can
live with any sighted bias and possitive differentiation bias, and that the
more rigorous test is too demaning of time and manpower resources to be
worthile. This is doubtless helped by the fact that most audio consumers
don't spend a fortune (relative to their income) on their equipment,
particularly if they upgrade over time. ABX testing has virtually no useful
roll to play in this case, as it is even more cumbersome than a double-blind
preference test and provides little or no more in the way of practical and
useful information. This assumes, of course, that it has first been actually
validated for the purpose of open-ended auditioning of audio components
playing music. In addition, an ABX test requires training on the artifacts
to be differentiated, and this won't initially be known in open-ended
testing.

Use of ABX by Reviewers

* ABX might be useful for reviewers in an occassional *validation* mode
(again if it is itself validated first). But it is far to cumbersome to be
used on an ongoing basis for the same reasons as outlined above for
consumers.


==================================

Harry, you just made an excellent exhaustive survey of ABX testing AS
APPLIED TO COMPARISON OF MUSICAL REPRODUCTION BY DIFFERENT audio
components.

It is predictable that it will make no impact in the ABX chapel. The
pipedream promise of an infallible consumer guiide to audio is too
attractive for a resoned argument. And the scientific test tells that
you may just as well listen to your computer whiz loudspeakere
"system".
In addition most of those who try switching from A to B and then to X
soon find that they no longer can tell one piece of music from the
other let alone one amp from another. See the notes on "performance" or
rather lack of it of most of Sean Olive's subjects who yet knew what
they liked best even though their answers to the difference question
were abysmally poor..

As for "training"; by the time they are trained for ABX they no longer
need the ritual.. They are accurate listeners.

All you'll get this time will be a repeat of how good ABX is in audio
research. They can't quote any successes in well-planned trials of its
application to component comparison. Why? Because none exist

Since none exist ABX for audio listeners does not exist either.It is
timethe chapel preachers.showed to the professionals that they arew
serious researchers. Polemics in RAO are not it.

Sheer waste of time and waste of your knowledge and intelligence
treating it seriously..
Ludovic Mirabel

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Ludo said:

Since none exist ABX for audio listeners does not exist either.It is
timethe chapel preachers.showed to the professionals that they arew
serious researchers. Polemics in RAO are not it.


I believe you've missed the point of aBxism. The true believers know
(somehow) that there exists an Ultimate Answer. You haven't proved the aBx
box is *not* the Answer; therefore, the faith of the 'borgs is fully
justified.

You wouldn't be so dismissive of blind faith if you hadn't had your mind
poisoned by all that science and logic they teach in medical school.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.
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In article ,
dizzy wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Rather than attempting a juvenile insult, simply read the above. Allow
me to summarize for you:


Why "summarize" something that we can all easily read for ourselves,
Jenn? Oh, right, you want to put your bias on every point.


Well, let's see about that, shall we?


1. There is a discussion about ABX testing.


Obviously no bias.

2. Knowing virtually nothing about such testing (and never claiming to
know anything about it), I ask a simple question: "When participating
in an ABX test....")


Obviously no bias.

3. You make a childish statement: "I must say, Jenn you're really up on
the subject. Not."


No bias. Most would agree that your statement is childish, based on the
fact that I never claimed to be "up on the subject." That's why I asked
the question.


I felt you deserved it, Jenn. Anyone who argues about audio issues as
much as you do should be more informed before they spout-off.


When have I "spouted off" about ABX? I guess that in your world, one is
not allowed to ask questions and try to learn. Too bad.


4. Dismayed at why you would do such a thing, I retort with: "I must
say, Dizzy...."


Again, no bias.

5. You then reply with something totally off topic to my point that I'm
simply asking a question about ABX,


Wrong.


How does your statement relate to the fact that I was simply asking a
question?


am trying to learn, and wondering
why you feel the need to throw snot: "If such a thing were not
allowed...."
6. I tell you, accurately,


Nope. Not accurate at all, Jenn.

that you're not making sense.


Think harder.

You then throw more snot.


How ironic.

PLEASE tell me that you're not responsible for teaching anybody anything.


My "classes" are too advanced for you, Jenn.


LOL. Come back when you have something substantial. Again, I was
SIMPLY ASKING A QUESTION. If you can't deal with it and simply want to
hurl "insults" you're no long worth a response.
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" said:


I know that to many engineers what I say will sound typically untidy.
There are the fundamental aptitude differences between the humanistic
and the technological minds..Booth are needed in their right place.



And cursed is the person who is both........ ;-)


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -


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"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:


If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum
comfort with their selection...quick switch, long
passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.


People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.


Solutions to what?


ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener
bias.


From a consumer POV it doesn't seem like a good solution.


Why not tell the whole truth, Jenn?

From the standpoint of a consumer who is in that infinitesimal minority that
still thinks that certain LPs can capture violin sounds better than any CD,
ABX doesn't seem like a good solution.


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Sander deWaal said:

There are the fundamental aptitude differences between the humanistic
and the technological minds..Booth are needed in their right place.


And cursed is the person who is both........ ;-)


You're free to contract for a lobotomy if that will ease your burden.

;-)






--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.
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Jenn Jenn is offline
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In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

If the listener has control of the source
selector...which IMO, they should...
they can do whatever they want to obtain maximum
comfort with their selection...quick switch, long
passage listening,
music, pink noise, etc.

That seems like a positive.

People here ranting against ABX
are generally not looking for solutions....they're
looking for excuses.

Solutions to what?

ABX is a solution to the well-known problem of listener
bias.


From a consumer POV it doesn't seem like a good solution.


Why not tell the whole truth, Jenn?

From the standpoint of a consumer who is in that infinitesimal minority that
still thinks that certain LPs can capture violin sounds better than any CD,
ABX doesn't seem like a good solution.


Why not tell the whole truth, Arny? ABX is a totally impractical
solution for anything vis-a-vis the home consumer.
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The Krooborg is STILL at odds with reality.

From a consumer POV [aBxism] doesn't seem like a good solution.


Why not tell the whole truth, Jenn?


LOL!

From the standpoint of a consumer who is in that infinitesimal minority that
still thinks that certain LPs can capture violin sounds better than any CD,
ABX doesn't seem like a good solution.


Arnii, if the rituals are so wonderful, why is the aBxism religion
virtually unknown outside of Usenet? Where are the legions of consumers
who will testify to the efficacy of aBxism?

The real question most people would ask is why you are so resistant to
reality. Of course we on RAO all know the answer to that one.






--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.
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Sander deWaal Sander deWaal is offline
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George M. Middius cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net
said:


There are the fundamental aptitude differences between the humanistic
and the technological minds..Booth are needed in their right place.



And cursed is the person who is both........ ;-)



You're free to contract for a lobotomy if that will ease your burden.


;-)



I carry it with pride and dignity!


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -
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