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  #1   Report Post  
Victor Martell
 
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Default Arny vs. Atkinson debat - Could someone post a blow by blow?

Hello

I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe is
tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?

Thnx

V


  #2   Report Post  
Tom
 
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"Victor Martell" wrote

I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe is
tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?



It will be recorded and available for download. Is this not adequate?


  #3   Report Post  
Robert Morein
 
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"Tom" wrote in message
...
"Victor Martell" wrote

I have to ask a favor to anybody attending the debate (which I believe

is
tomorrow, 4/29). Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the
proceedings?



It will be recorded and available for download. Is this not adequate?

Not for post-betting.


  #4   Report Post  
vmartell
 
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Certainly - Just missed that info. However, it could be fun to follow
the thing in real time and comment as it goes, including audience
reaction and debaters' expression, body language, etc.

V

  #5   Report Post  
EddieM
 
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Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?




http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html


WAHH hahahhahahah !!

Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!

I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
about the flight. Lol!



ROTF





  #6   Report Post  
Schizoid Man
 
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"EddieM" wrote in message

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html

WAHH hahahhahahah !!

Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!

I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
about the flight. Lol!


I do think Arny is wrong, when he says that phase integrity is not
important. If two speakers are truly out of phase, the audible difference is
not only detectable, it is staggering.


  #7   Report Post  
ScottW
 
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I think they're talking signal polarity, which I agree isn't
detectable. Switch your speaker terminals and find out if you can
tell. I got a couple test CDs with signal polarity reversals and I
can't tell at all. But the question was phase integrity which is easy
to detect channel to channel errors. How about phase changes at
crossover points, thats a more interesting topic for speaker design.
I don't think we got the whole question nor the complete answers on the
summary.

Bring out the movie.... actually those guys are too ugly for video....
audio will more than suffice.

ScottW

  #8   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On 29 Apr 2005 23:36:32 -0700, "ScottW" wrote:

I think they're talking signal polarity, which I agree isn't
detectable. Switch your speaker terminals and find out if you can
tell. I got a couple test CDs with signal polarity reversals and I
can't tell at all. But the question was phase integrity which is easy
to detect channel to channel errors. How about phase changes at
crossover points, thats a more interesting topic for speaker design.
I don't think we got the whole question nor the complete answers on the
summary.

Bring out the movie.... actually those guys are too ugly for video....
audio will more than suffice.

ScottW


"John says that most of the reviewing in magazines is done singly in a
reviewer's system.

Arnie argues that you have changed the consciousness of the listener
as he is trying to evaluate the device under test so an opinion can
not be made without changing the metal state of the listener to the
same it was before he changed the amplifier".

I don't know if Mr. Rachlin has mischaracterized Arnold's rebuttal,
but this is a similar point to the one that says that by inducing a
highly unnatural and artificial comparison between very small musical
snippets, such as occurs in PCABX protocol, you have "altered" the
conciousness of the listener and have made it difficult to evaluate
the difference between components.

IOW, the mindset (read conciousness) of the listener is far different
than it would be if one were listening to systems in a manner more
similar to the actual listening that one does when listening for
enjoyment.

Also, there's the additional stress of the test itself, trying to find
differences in such small snatches of musical content. No, it's not
white-knuckle stress of being held up at gunpoint like Mr. Ferstler
likes to think that I'm saying, but it's stress nonetheless, and far
more stress than a test that progesses in a more natural fashion.

Any test is, by its very nature, going to alter the conciousness of
the listener, so his point is really pretty meaningless, because it's
true for all cases of testing.
  #9   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
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"dave weil" wrote in message
...

"John says that most of the reviewing in magazines is done singly in a
reviewer's system.

Arnie argues that you have changed the consciousness of the listener
as he is trying to evaluate the device under test so an opinion can
not be made without changing the metal state of the listener to the
same it was before he changed the amplifier".


Lordy! And he won't concede that listening in the ABX environment
changes the conscious state of the listener.

Basically, he is saying that the human emotional sate is merely
another variable to be eliminated in evaluating a system.

BORG ALERT!!!



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  #10   Report Post  
MINe 109
 
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In article ,
"Clyde Slick" wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
...

"John says that most of the reviewing in magazines is done singly in a
reviewer's system.

Arnie argues that you have changed the consciousness of the listener
as he is trying to evaluate the device under test so an opinion can
not be made without changing the metal state of the listener to the
same it was before he changed the amplifier".


Lordy! And he won't concede that listening in the ABX environment
changes the conscious state of the listener.

Basically, he is saying that the human emotional sate is merely
another variable to be eliminated in evaluating a system.


The ideal reviewer:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/89/89mshortterm.phtml

Stephen


  #11   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
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"Schizoid Man" wrote in message
...

"EddieM" wrote in message

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html

WAHH hahahhahahah !!

Just saw that teary-eyed picture of Arny K during the Debate.
It looks like he still hasn't stop sobbing from that very moment. Lol!

I wonder what made him cry. I'm sure he'll come up with something
about the flight. Lol!


I do think Arny is wrong, when he says that phase integrity is not
important. If two speakers are truly out of phase, the audible difference
is not only detectable, it is staggering.


It is known as absolute polarity, it is the inversion of pahase of both
chanels simultaneously.

It is not always noticable to me, it tends to be more noticable
on cd's and on acoustic or vocal redordings.

Sometimes, a cd has the wrong absolute polarity, nad inverting it
during playback improvess the sound.

Two cd's I remember with inversions are my copy of
Jennifer Warnes "Famous Blue Raincoat" and the classic RCA,
"The Reiner Sound.". My lp versions are not inverted.
My Reiner lp is not original, it is a Clasic Records reissue




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  #12   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?


http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html



Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(


  #13   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
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****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.

The picture of me in question


It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.

Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(


Do you expect us to take your word about somebody else's boorishness?
That's like asking Ferstler to rate people's modesty.





  #14   Report Post  
ScottW
 
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So according to this writeup.... you folded. Completely different
Kreuger than on RAO showed up. Audio "hygiene"? WTH is that? Sounds
like you were stupefied by the situation as exemplified by your metal
(sic) state of mind.

ScottW

  #15   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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George M. Middius wrote:
****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.

The picture of me in question


It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.


So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way that
I was going to do this debate?




  #16   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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ScottW wrote:

So according to this writeup.... you folded.


Still can't read, eh scooter?

Completely different Kreuger than on RAO showed up.


Since my name isn't Kreuger, you have to be talking about a different
guy.

Audio "hygiene"? WTH is that?



I'd explain it to you if I thought you could understand an idea that
complex.

Sounds like you were stupefied by the situation as exemplified by
your metal (sic) state of mind.


Post again when you learn to read and spell, Scooter.


  #17   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
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The Big **** stinks up the joint.

****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.

The picture of me in question


It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.


So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way that
I was going to do this debate?


I'm surprised you showed up, but even more surprised you didn't bring a
bag of turds to throw around.

Were you humiliated often? Did anybody try to put money in your cup?




  #18   Report Post  
ScottW
 
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First Howard reveals the magic surround, now you have a metal state of
mind with a concept of audio hygiene. Should I even bother watching
the video when it comes out?
Did you make a legit point or did you spin away your time in semantics
like a reviewer for Stereophile?

That's it! Arny showed up looking for a job. The suit gave it away.
Guess the house remodel is costing a bit more than planned.
Since Howie announced his impending retirement... you may find a job
yet.

ScottW

  #19   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?


http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html



Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html


Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and read it
last night



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  #20   Report Post  
EddieM
 
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Arny Krueger wrote
EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the proceedings?


Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.



It worked last night.


Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon
declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(





I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about? How did you prepared in as far as flexing
some muscles for this Debate? What was your opponent's
greatest strength?

Well, did you had fun yesterday? How's the food?
Did you met any luminaries? Which one did you find
interesting the most?





  #21   Report Post  
John Atkinson
 
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EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's 108-minute, more or less, marathon declaration-of-his-
beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy-sauce, which
he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't stop
him I know not.


Because I allowed and paid the members of the audience the same
latitude and respect I allowed you, Mr. Krueger.

I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?


That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the appropriate
DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
computer to record the debate.

My thanks, Arny, for your graciousness in agreeing to proceed with
the debate without being able to give your PowerPoint presentation.

I hope to have the recording available for streaming on our website
some time next week.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

  #22   Report Post  
Schizoid Man
 
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"John Atkinson" wrote in message

EddieM wrote:


I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?


That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the appropriate
DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
computer to record the debate.


Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?


  #25   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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George M. Middius wrote:
The Big **** stinks up the joint.

****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.

The picture of me in question

It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.


So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way
that I was going to do this debate?


I'm surprised you showed up,


Under states the fact that my appearance is a major sucessful attack
on your credibility, Middius.




  #26   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Clyde Slick wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
EddieM wrote:
Victor Martell" wrote



Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the

proceedings?

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html



Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.

Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html


Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and

read
it last night.


Prove it.




  #27   Report Post  
Schizoid Man
 
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message

Clyde Slick wrote:


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


Here's a working link:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html


Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and

read
it last night.


Prove it.


It did, actually.


  #28   Report Post  
Lionel
 
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George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:


The Big **** stinks up the joint.


****borg returns to his old pooping grounds.


The picture of me in question

It's not in question. You look more like a lizard than usual.

So Middius, how many times did you say here that there was no way
that I was going to do this debate?


I'm surprised you showed up,


Poor George, he is so often wrong that his life is a
succession of pitiful denials.

Under states the fact that my appearance is a major sucessful attack
on your credibility, Middius.


Don't make the mistake, NostraMiddius hasn't any
credibility. He just makes sentences on RAO for narcissitic
pleasure only.

Apart Middius and his delusion of grandeur, this meeting is
a funny setback for all the RAO's moronic spectators who
were waiting for a wrestling fight.

:-)
  #31   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote


EddieM wrote:


Victor Martell wrote


Could you be so kind as to post a blow by blow of the

proceedings?

Eddie can't get *anything* right, even the simplist thing.


It worked last night.


So you say.

Here's a working link:


http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html


The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry

Lavo's
108 minute, more or less, marathon

declaration-of-his-beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy
-sauce, which he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson

didn't
stop him I know not. Harry is an even bigger boor and bore in

person
than he is on RAHE. ;-(


On second thought, maybe Atkinson needed the comic relief that Harry's
blather provided. Harry kept me from making a couple of critical
points, and Atkinson needed any help he could get.

I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?


Atkinson promised me a working computer and projector. He was a
standard video interconnect cable short of a working set. I manage a
bunch of video projectors at my church - that exact cable accompanies
every projector that needs it and I have a spare on hand.

As improvrished as the show was for presentation technology - someone
probably stole the cable.

Atkinson was a no-show with the promised presentation technology. He
seemed to leave everything to the last minute. He apologized but he
screwed up because he did not have his act together.

Stuff happens.

The presentation infrastructure failure was not a major bump in my
road. It was not unexpected. I already had working plan "B" ready to
execute. I executed it and moved on.

My plan "B" was to install the Powerpoint Viewer on the PC in the
press room and run it off so I still had something to speak from. I
knew I was in the back woods of presentation technology when I saw
that neither Powerpoint nor anything like it was already on that
computer. But, I was prepared, I brought my own copy of Powerpoint on
my USB flash drive. I consider PowerPoint and Word to be part of the
minimal configuration of a business computer.

I don't blame Atkinson - the whole show was a major disappointment to
me, based on exactly what failed him, on the grounds of presentation
technology. So, the gross failure of Atkinson's presentation
technology was just a reflection of the backwards context he was
working in.

Back on the topic of audio, I heard a lot of really bad-sounding crap
masquerading as audio gear. For example the Bosendorfer speakers were
really horrid, but nobody seems to have the guts to say so, right out.

Also, it's really pathetic to see so many people trying to wring
something new out of a 6 1/2 woofer and a dome tweeter and still get
it wrong.

I had never heard a modern SET, so I was unprepared for how horrid
they sound with the more complex music. There's a reason why almost
every SET demo I heard was based on a recording of a solo or a very
small group - when somone screwed up and played something a tiny bit
complex the SETs I heard (and I think I visited *every* room) tended
to load up with grunge on massed instruments and voices.

The fact that so many worship at this phoney altar of Luddite SET
technology is a testimonial to the fact that many high enders
apparently don't really listen to gear like us DBT folks do.

Frankly, faced with a choice between listening to good vinyl and your
typical SET, I'd take the vinyl in a heartbeat, tics, pops, and and
tracking distortion included.

A companion from the BAS said that he thought he saw more SETs than
ever. We agreed that this is an example of the depths that good sound
at the show has sunk to.

I walked into one room (I think it was Manley) and saw the glowing
signs that something was probably going to be sonically awry. Instead
I actually heard pretty fair sound. I looked again and noticed that
the output tubes were in pairs. Huzzah, someone had rediscovered 1933
technology. Push-pull can work! Do you realize how sad this is?

But far worse IMO, I saw a lot of really bad amateurish sales
presentations. Most of the advertising agencies must have sent not
their "A" teams but their "zzzzz" teams. If they had used high school
students to run their sales presentations, there would have at least
been some enthusiasm. IME some of the brighter high school students
actually get AV.

How did you prepared in as far as flexing some muscles for this

Debate?

Like I said, I had a plan A and a plan B. Plan B worked and that was
that. My major problem was staying awake while Atkinson, Fremer and
others recounted what should have been forgotten memories of what
should have been their audio childhood.

If you look at our listening technology the PCABX and the LTT of today
is not the ABX of 10 years ago. We have been refining our evaluation
technology for over 30 years. High end evaluation is locked in a
broken groove - nothing has changed in decades.

What was your opponent's greatest strength?


Atkinson demonstrated no strengths. He obviously had nothing of
substance prepared. He looked harried and tired. His critical examples
were decades old. He misstated the outcome of one of his own
experiments.

There was a rumor that Stereophile was going to be renamed by
Primedia.

And, Atkinson had that master of charm - the Fremer idiot-child, on
his side. Michael threw a major fit after the end of the debate. He
obviously lives in the past far more than the rest. But anybody who
reads his articles in SP should know that.

Well, did you had fun yesterday?


I hate to see so much failure and mediocrity, even when I don't I
agree with the core ideals.

The Hilton is still a great venue and the hotel staff seemed to be
really working hard to support the show. All of the service people I
had contact in Manhattan and Queens were great. Maybe all the
unfriendly New Yorkers died in 9/11, no they were innocents that can't
be it. The people I met were nicer than they were the last time I
stayed in Manhattan. BTW, the well-known hotel I stayed in then is no
longer. I hope this does not bode ill for the Hilton. ;-)

I wanted to give the vendors and their advertising agencies lots of
points for professionalism and performance even though many of the
products were sonic crap. But a few bright spots aside, this was a
very dreary show. Can we say same-old, same-old?

How's the food?


Food is not a big thing in my life. I ate at a few different places
that were far from the top. The food was a reasonable value, it kept
me healthy and that was that.

Did you met any luminaries?


I met a few people I know from other Usenet groups. I met a few people
from Primedia. I never really even met Atkinson.

Which one did you find the most interesting?


I was surprised by all the bad-sounding high-end gear and all the
amateurish sales presentations and news conferences.

I did learn one thing, though. After seeing a number of high end audio
systems with cables the size of gas station pneumatic hoses, I figured
out that they were needed to inflate the prices.



  #32   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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John Atkinson wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
The picture of me in question was no doubt taken during Harry
Lavo's 108-minute, more or less, marathon declaration-of-his-
beliefs-about-audio-life-God-and-the-meaning-of-soy-sauce, which
he tried to pass off as a question. Why Atkinson didn't stop
him I know not.


Because I allowed and paid the members of the audience the same
latitude and respect I allowed you, Mr. Krueger.


I didn't come a thousand miles to have my time wasted in great volume
by idiots like Harry Lavo.


  #33   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Schizoid Man wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message

EddieM wrote:


I read that your powerpoint presentation got bungled up, what
was that all about?


That was my fault. To save Mr. Krueger the inconvenience of having
to bring a PC, I had arranged to use one of my company's laptops.
Unfortunately, the Windows password had been changed, I had not
been given the new one, and my division's IT rep was on vacation.
Wes Phillips offered his iBook for Arny to use, but we did not have
a VGA adaptor for that computer's video output. I had the

appropriate
DVI-VGA adaptor for my PowerBook, but I was already using that
computer to record the debate.


Care to upload the PowerPoint, Arny?


This is a text-only newsgroup. I'll see if I can work something out.


  #36   Report Post  
Schizoid Man
 
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"Lionel" wrote in message

Apart Middius and his delusion of grandeur, this meeting is a funny
setback for all the RAO's moronic spectators who were waiting for a
wrestling fight.


You hit the nail on the head, Lionel.


  #37   Report Post  
Lionel_Chapuis
 
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George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

"Something in the air... stinks"

I see that you still have sphincters loosening, eh George ?






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  #38   Report Post  
Lionel_Chapuis
 
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George "Betty Boop" Middius wrote:

"Something in the air... stinks"

I see that you still




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  #39   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Richard wrote:
"Clyde Slick" wrote:



Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and
read it last night


Not for me! I got the same error message when trying to access it
today as then:

The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name
changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

It was broken then and remains broken but the one Arny Krueger

posted
works.


It's possible that the earlier link worked - if the Enjoythemusic
author couldn't properly spell my name right the first time. It has
happened.

Note that despite my attempts with John to get my first name spelled
"Arny", my name-card at the debate was misspelled.


  #40   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
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You know the debate didn't go well because the Kroo is in full "debating
trade" stride immediately afterward.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkreuger.html

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi200...onkrueger.html

Eddies link worked last night. I got the page form that link and read
it last night.


Prove it.


Stop whining, Arnii. Rochy fixed a spelling error in the original URL
(your name). You frequently use typos to score your "debating trade"
points. Here's a case of somebody fixing a typo, and you, in response,
denying the existence of something we can all see plainly. Does your
"debating trade" rulebook give you that kind of flexibility, or are you
just being a ****?




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