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#1
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade?
Hi,
I have a '97 Cavalier coupe (don't laugh, it's paid for and I've decided to keep it a while) I'd like to upgrade the stock speakers to something that sound a little (ok more like a lot) better. I replaced the head unit with a fairly cheap Blaupunkt CD receiver about a year ago, and although it plays CDs, the stock speakers just have horrible frequency response, and the front pair of 4x6's seem to have an upper bass resonance which is only made worse with the deck's loudness control. With some music, the system sounds tolerable, and there are other occasions where the speakers sound like a cheap ghetto blaster with dying batteries. Note there is nothing wrong with any of the components, it's just that some recordings are better at concealing or brining out the flaws in the system. I am looking for flat frequency response, and absence of distortion from my new speakers - I don't care if they have amazing bass response, but they cannot have any annoying resonance or excessive distortion. In other words, they cannot sound anything like the junk that's in there now. I'd like to stick with the stock speaker sizes and locations, mainly because I want this to be a quick project, and not an ongoing one. In order of importance, here are my desired upgrades -Front speakers (4x6) -Rear speakers (6x9) -New Head unit (if needed) My budget for the speakers is flexible. I am not looking to spend a lot of money, but I will spend what it takes, say up to around $500 CDN or so, to get something which can at least approach hi-fi sound quality. If a $500 upgrade will not do much, I'll look at spending more, but I know that $500 can buy a set of home speakers which would meet my needs so far as sound quality is concerned, so I'll use it as a starting point for the car. Anyone done this with a Cavalier or Sunfire before? Any recommendations on how I should proceed? Thanks Max |
#2
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade?
You can also fit a 6 1/2" speaker in the front with a special mounting adaptor. If you want to see what I put in my 99 Cavalier, check it out he
http://php.mayhemkrew.com/myegallery...showgall&gid=7 "Max Holubitsky" wrote in message ... Hi, I have a '97 Cavalier coupe (don't laugh, it's paid for and I've decided to keep it a while) I'd like to upgrade the stock speakers to something that sound a little (ok more like a lot) better. I replaced the head unit with a fairly cheap Blaupunkt CD receiver about a year ago, and although it plays CDs, the stock speakers just have horrible frequency response, and the front pair of 4x6's seem to have an upper bass resonance which is only made worse with the deck's loudness control. With some music, the system sounds tolerable, and there are other occasions where the speakers sound like a cheap ghetto blaster with dying batteries. Note there is nothing wrong with any of the components, it's just that some recordings are better at concealing or brining out the flaws in the system. I am looking for flat frequency response, and absence of distortion from my new speakers - I don't care if they have amazing bass response, but they cannot have any annoying resonance or excessive distortion. In other words, they cannot sound anything like the junk that's in there now. I'd like to stick with the stock speaker sizes and locations, mainly because I want this to be a quick project, and not an ongoing one. In order of importance, here are my desired upgrades -Front speakers (4x6) -Rear speakers (6x9) -New Head unit (if needed) My budget for the speakers is flexible. I am not looking to spend a lot of money, but I will spend what it takes, say up to around $500 CDN or so, to get something which can at least approach hi-fi sound quality. If a $500 upgrade will not do much, I'll look at spending more, but I know that $500 can buy a set of home speakers which would meet my needs so far as sound quality is concerned, so I'll use it as a starting point for the car. Anyone done this with a Cavalier or Sunfire before? Any recommendations on how I should proceed? Thanks Max |
#3
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade?
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:12:12 -0600, Max Holubitsky
wrote: Hi, I have a '97 Cavalier coupe (don't laugh, it's paid for and I've decided to keep it a while) I'd like to upgrade the stock speakers to something that sound a little (ok more like a lot) better. I replaced the head unit with a fairly cheap Blaupunkt CD receiver about a year ago, and although it plays CDs, the stock speakers just have horrible frequency response, and the front pair of 4x6's seem to have an upper bass resonance which is only made worse with the deck's loudness control. With some music, the system sounds tolerable, and there are other occasions where the speakers sound like a cheap ghetto blaster with dying batteries. Note there is nothing wrong with any of the components, it's just that some recordings are better at concealing or brining out the flaws in the system. I am looking for flat frequency response, and absence of distortion from my new speakers - I don't care if they have amazing bass response, but they cannot have any annoying resonance or excessive distortion. In other words, they cannot sound anything like the junk that's in there now. I'd like to stick with the stock speaker sizes and locations, mainly because I want this to be a quick project, and not an ongoing one. In order of importance, here are my desired upgrades -Front speakers (4x6) -Rear speakers (6x9) -New Head unit (if needed) My budget for the speakers is flexible. I am not looking to spend a lot of money, but I will spend what it takes, say up to around $500 CDN or so, to get something which can at least approach hi-fi sound quality. If a $500 upgrade will not do much, I'll look at spending more, but I know that $500 can buy a set of home speakers which would meet my needs so far as sound quality is concerned, so I'll use it as a starting point for the car. Anyone done this with a Cavalier or Sunfire before? Any recommendations on how I should proceed? Thanks Max 500 bucks canadian!??!?! dude... i bought a pair of 4x6 boston accoustic speakers for 149 bucks at jb-power center... they are the best sounding 4x6 i have ever heard... and you could get a dam good pair of 6x9's for under 200 bucks easily... 500 bucks for 2 pair of speakers would be getting you some DAM good speakers. but yah, check out boston acocustics 4x6's |
#4
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade?
Thanks for the replies
I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the fronts tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors apart, and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot, and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend. |
#5
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade?
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote:
Thanks for the replies I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the fronts tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors apart, and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot, and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend. i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you had a deck! how much were your 4x6 plate clarions? |
#6
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade?
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#7
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
I put in the 6x9's yesterday... wow, what a process, I don't envy people
who do this for a living. I had to take off the driver's and passenger's seatbelts, and basically every piece of interior trim from there back... including the rear seat back. Do all cars require this much dissassembly just to get to the rear speakers? I managed to get it all back together without breaking anything, and found half a dozen pens, lighters, reciepts, etc that had slipped into the crack between the seat and the side panels over the years. I wanted to install the attractive Clarion grills, but I park in a public parking lot, and crime can be a problem, so I left the stock GM perforated masonite with cloth over it intact. The new 6x9's together with the new front speakers sound incredible. If I had a complaint, it would be that the whole system is a little bit too bright at times, but putting the treble control to -1 takes care of that. The bass is strong, and deep. I've heard cheap subs with much less depth than this setup, however it can't push the SPLs of a good subwoofer. All this with a wal-mart Blaupunkt CD receiver which I bought when my radio wasn't working 2 days before a road trip a year and a half ago. wrote in message ... On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote: Thanks for the replies I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the fronts tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors apart, and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot, and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend. i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you had a deck! how much were your 4x6 plate clarions? |
#8
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
Usually on that car, I just fold down the rear seat, remove the push pins holding the trunk side panel in, and unclipping the side covers from behind. Then pull off the rear lid. Usually takes me about under 5 minutes to get em out. But I do it for a living. And you think that is hard, ****, I just worked on a 90 Nissan 300ZX and basically have to remove all the panels in the rear just to get the back speakers out. Now that took me a good 30 minutes to disassemble.
"Max Holubitsky" wrote in message . ca... I put in the 6x9's yesterday... wow, what a process, I don't envy people who do this for a living. I had to take off the driver's and passenger's seatbelts, and basically every piece of interior trim from there back... including the rear seat back. Do all cars require this much dissassembly just to get to the rear speakers? I managed to get it all back together without breaking anything, and found half a dozen pens, lighters, reciepts, etc that had slipped into the crack between the seat and the side panels over the years. I wanted to install the attractive Clarion grills, but I park in a public parking lot, and crime can be a problem, so I left the stock GM perforated masonite with cloth over it intact. The new 6x9's together with the new front speakers sound incredible. If I had a complaint, it would be that the whole system is a little bit too bright at times, but putting the treble control to -1 takes care of that. The bass is strong, and deep. I've heard cheap subs with much less depth than this setup, however it can't push the SPLs of a good subwoofer. All this with a wal-mart Blaupunkt CD receiver which I bought when my radio wasn't working 2 days before a road trip a year and a half ago. wrote in message ... On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote: Thanks for the replies I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the fronts tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors apart, and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot, and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend. i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you had a deck! how much were your 4x6 plate clarions? |
#9
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
Wow, 5 minutes? I'm impressed. I figured I would break the rear lid without taking out the side panels first. This is nice to know in case I ever do it again (eg. say I sell the car). To be honest, once I got over the fear of seeing my car in pieces, and picturing it sitting on blocks at our local pick your part, it was all pretty straight forward. The doors were the same story... a long time ago, I fixed the window mechanism on a '80 Honda Accord, and the door was never the same after, it always rattled... but on this car, the doors have never been tighter than now.
Anyhow, after more listening I think I am starting to realize that my Blaupunkt amplifier isn't really all that great. I've been into home hi-fi for years, and whenever I replace one component, it always shows up all the problems in the remaining components... I see now that car hi-fi isn't much different. Not to mention that now that I've had the car apart, I've noticed all sorts of places where I could run cables to a trunk mounted amplifier. I also noticed that the wires feeding all four speakers are very thin for a 4 ohm speaker... I wouldn't be suprised if I'm loosing some power over the wires! Is there anything special about wire used in cars, with respect to vibration immunity, etc.? I also wouldn't mind being able to roll off the bass going to the front speakers, and accentuate what is going to the rears slightly. I am starting to get the feeling that this is going to turn into another hobby, rather than just a quick upgrade. One other topic I will address, is actually a question. I've never understood how a trunk mounted subwoofer can have good frequency response, when it is coupled to the car's cabin though the seats, body panels, etc. How is the sound transmitted to the inside of the car cabin, when the subwoofer is located in a sealed trunk? Is this even done in a quality installation, or is some sort of air coupling employed? To me it seems like installing a home subwoofer in a closet.. which is something that obviously would never be done. "username" wrote in message t... Usually on that car, I just fold down the rear seat, remove the push pins holding the trunk side panel in, and unclipping the side covers from behind. Then pull off the rear lid. Usually takes me about under 5 minutes to get em out. But I do it for a living. And you think that is hard, ****, I just worked on a 90 Nissan 300ZX and basically have to remove all the panels in the rear just to get the back speakers out. Now that took me a good 30 minutes to disassemble. "Max Holubitsky" wrote in message . ca... I put in the 6x9's yesterday... wow, what a process, I don't envy people who do this for a living. I had to take off the driver's and passenger's seatbelts, and basically every piece of interior trim from there back... including the rear seat back. Do all cars require this much dissassembly just to get to the rear speakers? I managed to get it all back together without breaking anything, and found half a dozen pens, lighters, reciepts, etc that had slipped into the crack between the seat and the side panels over the years. I wanted to install the attractive Clarion grills, but I park in a public parking lot, and crime can be a problem, so I left the stock GM perforated masonite with cloth over it intact. The new 6x9's together with the new front speakers sound incredible. If I had a complaint, it would be that the whole system is a little bit too bright at times, but putting the treble control to -1 takes care of that. The bass is strong, and deep. I've heard cheap subs with much less depth than this setup, however it can't push the SPLs of a good subwoofer. All this with a wal-mart Blaupunkt CD receiver which I bought when my radio wasn't working 2 days before a road trip a year and a half ago. wrote in message ... On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:15:10 GMT, "Max Holubitsky" wrote: Thanks for the replies I bought Clarion speakers at A&B Sound - the fronts are plates with a tweeter and a 3" mid, and the rears are 6x9 triaxial. I Installed the fronts tonight, and man, I honestly cannot believe how much better the system sounds. Like 1000% better, and that's just with new fronts! It actually images now, and the boomy bass is gone! The loudness control adds some bottom end now, and dosen't just turn everything muddy. The 4x6 Delco's I removed are among the cheapest speakers I've ever seen! I wouldn't put these into an intercom! It was a bit of a struggle getting the doors apart, and back together, but I managed to do it all in a dimly lit parking lot, and not harm anything. I'm going to install the 6x9's on the weekend. i got an 03 cav...with stock radio am/fm NO CD... and stock speakers... i paid cash for the car, so i aint got enoughmoney left over for a stero... you thought you had it bad??? hehe at least you had a deck! how much were your 4x6 plate clarions? |
#10
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
Max Holubitsky wrote
Anyhow, after more listening I think I am starting to realize that my Blaupunkt amplifier isn't really all that great. It begins ... I've been into home hi-fi for years, and whenever I replace one component, it always shows up all the problems in the remaining components... I see now that car hi-fi isn't much different. It is relentless, although I feel that car audio is more fun to work on then home. Not to mention that now that I've had the car apart, I've noticed all sorts of places where I could run cables to a trunk mounted amplifier. The one item in this car that I really was pleased with was the grommet in the firewall thta the factory wiring runs through. It is massive, fairly easy to get at, and makes installing the power wire for the amp(s) almost pleasant. I also noticed that the wires feeding all four speakers are very thin for a 4 ohm speaker... I wouldn't be suprised if I'm loosing some power over the wires! Is there anything special about wire used in cars, with respect to vibration immunity, etc.? The impedance of the speakers doesn't make a difference as far as wire size is concerned. You will always lose power over a wire, it has resistance. Chances are that you wouldn't be able to hear a difference by upgrading to a larger wire size, but I firmly believe that even if someone just THINKS that something sounds better, then that is great :-) There is nothing special about wire used for cars. Any place that you run wire through a panel, or over a sharp edge, wrap it in wire loom to protect it. If you go ahead with upgrading the speaker wire, I would suggest #14. It is much larger then you need, but still easy to work with and terminate. I also wouldn't mind being able to roll off the bass going to the front speakers, and accentuate what is going to the rears slightly. Using the head unit to power the speakers, you can install a capactior in series with each of the front speakers to high pass them. 330 microfarad would highpass them at 120Hz. Rolling off the bass going to the front speakers will have the effect of accentuating what is going to the rears. If you install an amp, go with a 4 channel that has a flexible crossover system built in. This way you will have a number of options for highpassing the front speakers, but still be able to run the rear speakers full range. I am starting to get the feeling that this is going to turn into another hobby, rather than just a quick upgrade. Understatement of the year :-0 One other topic I will address, is actually a question. I've never understood how a trunk mounted subwoofer can have good frequency response, when it is coupled to the car's cabin though the seats, body panels, etc. How is the sound transmitted to the inside of the car cabin, when the subwoofer is located in a sealed trunk? The trunk is not sealed, especially in your Cavy with fold down seats. The only cars I have heard of that had a problem with installing subs in the trunk were old BMWs that had a firewall between the trunk and the cabin. Is this even done in a quality installation, or is some sort of air coupling employed? To me it seems like installing a home subwoofer in a closet.. which is something that obviously would never be done. A couple of items here. The number one reason for installing subs in the trunk is actually 2 reasons ... space and volume. There is not enough room in the cabin to properly install a 10" or 12" speaker (not including some of the extravagant installs that have been done using areas like the front fenders for enclosures). Also, because the ambient noise level in a moving car is so high (especially at the low end of the audio spectrum) you need an excessive volume of bass produced to keep the response flat. The easiest way to produce a lot of bass is using a large speaker. That being said, if you could build an enclosure which would be the correct size, and could properly aim a 6" or 8" driver in a kick panel, you might not need anything else for bass. For the most part it is easier (and stealthier) to install a large sub in the trunk. An important, but often overlooked, part of good bass response in a vehicle is reducing the vibration of the body panels as much as possible. Hope any of this helps. -- Regards, Dan Snooks |
#11
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
Hi Daniel,
Thank you for your reply! It is relentless, although I feel that car audio is more fun to work on then home. Car hi-fi seems to have a much larger DIY element to it, so this is understandable. I also like the fact that a $300 speaker upgrade made such a huge difference.. in the world of home hi-fi, $300 hardly buys anything. The one item in this car that I really was pleased with was the grommet in the firewall thta the factory wiring runs through. It is massive, fairly easy to get at, and makes installing the power wire for the amp(s) almost pleasant. This is good to know... is the trunk the preferred location for an amplifier? What's a good choice for feeding it from my head unit, Belden mic cable, or something similar? The impedance of the speakers doesn't make a difference as far as wire size is concerned. Sure it does... if you have an 8 ohm speaker, and a 4 ohm speaker, and both are receiving the same amount of power from an amplifier, the 4 ohm speaker will draw twice as much current, due to ohm's law. Because of this, the voltage drop across the speaker wire due to the resistance of the wire will be twice as high. So in summary, the lower the impedance of the speakers, the thicker the wire must be, in order to transfer the same amount of power. In home hi-fi, it is not so much power loss over speaker wires that is a problem, but rather the fact that an "8 ohm" speaker may be 7 ohms at 40 Hz, and 30 ohms at 70 Hz, etc. This will result in the voltage at the speaker terminals being higher or lower, depending on the frequency being amplified. In one installation I did, I was putting a pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers which had very little bottom end into a kitchen. I deliberately used a long run of 20AWG speaker wire, so that the speaker would have an accentuated bass response at its resonant frequency. It was not a super hi-fi system, but it did add enough bottom end that the end result was acceptable. The bass response at resonance was boosted by not more than a few dB by this setup, but it made a big difference. Obviously in a true hi-fi system, you would want the voltage supplied to the voice coil of the speaker to be as close as is possible to the voltage at the output of the amplifier. This is one issue that's been covered to death with home hi-fi, but in the car, the runs are so much shorter, I am not sure what difference it would really make. Using the head unit to power the speakers, you can install a capactior in series with each of the front speakers to high pass them. 330 microfarad would highpass them at 120Hz. Rolling off the bass going to the front speakers will have the effect of accentuating what is going to the rears. This is an awesome idea, which I didn't even consider. It's practically free too, and sounds like a great short term solution until I install a proper amplifier - thanks! I must say though, that currently my Blaupunkt is clipping before either the front, OR the rear speakers show any signs of stress. If you install an amp, go with a 4 channel that has a flexible crossover system built in. This way you will have a number of options for highpassing the front speakers, but still be able to run the rear speakers full range. Any recommendations as to a quality 4 channel amplifier? Unlike home hi-fi, I really have no bias with regard to country of origin, or brand, other than the fact that if there are two products which are equal in every way, I would prefer to support North American industry. I think 50W RMS. per channel would more than do the job, but I've also noticed that many car stereo components are not rated in Watts RMS. Should I aim for higher power on account of this? Thanks for your excellent explanation about sub woofers, and how to install them in vehicles. I will take it to heart, and if this hobby continues to grow, I will likely install a sub woofer in the trunk. The whole idea of a 6 or 8" woofer installed in the car, in a proper enclosure, is not without appeal either, because I like to take long road trips (want to go down the coast, from Vancouver to California next summer), and as much as I like music I need to have some trunk space too. The Cavalier's trunk isn't exactly cavernous as it comes from the factory, let alone if I install a large speaker enclosure into it. I also don't want to disturb access to the spare tire too drastically. My main priority right now, is getting clean, crisp response, with plenty of dynamic range, from my four main speakers. Thanks, Max |
#12
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
Max Holubitsky wrote
Hi Daniel, Thank you for your reply! Car hi-fi seems to have a much larger DIY element to it, so this is understandable. I also like the fact that a $300 speaker upgrade made such a huge difference.. in the world of home hi-fi, $300 hardly buys anything. Might get you 3' of Kimber Kable :-) This is good to know... is the trunk the preferred location for an amplifier? Usually the trunk is the easiest place to 'fit' and amp, some people squeeze them under a front seat but that is not going to happen in a Cavalier ! What's a good choice for feeding it from my head unit, Belden mic cable, or something similar? Shielded RCA cables. If you want to maintain fader control (front to rear) you will need 2 sets of RCAs. The impedance of the speakers doesn't make a difference as far as wire size is concerned. Sure it does... if you have an 8 ohm speaker, and a 4 ohm speaker, and both are receiving the same amount of power from an amplifier, the 4 ohm speaker will draw twice as much current, due to ohm's law. Because of this, the voltage drop across the speaker wire due to the resistance of the wire will be twice as high. So in summary, the lower the impedance of the speakers, the thicker the wire must be, in order to transfer the same amount of power. In home hi-fi, it is not so much power loss over speaker wires that is a problem, but rather the fact that an "8 ohm" speaker may be 7 ohms at 40 Hz, and 30 ohms at 70 Hz, etc. This will result in the voltage at the speaker terminals being higher or lower, depending on the frequency being amplified. In one installation I did, I was putting a pair of Polk Audio bookshelf speakers which had very little bottom end into a kitchen. I deliberately used a long run of 20AWG speaker wire, so that the speaker would have an accentuated bass response at its resonant frequency. It was not a super hi-fi system, but it did add enough bottom end that the end result was acceptable. The bass response at resonance was boosted by not more than a few dB by this setup, but it made a big difference. Obviously in a true hi-fi system, you would want the voltage supplied to the voice coil of the speaker to be as close as is possible to the voltage at the output of the amplifier. This is one issue that's been covered to death with home hi-fi, but in the car, the runs are so much shorter, I am not sure what difference it would really make. That is a stellar explanation ... and now I feel like a complete idiot (especially because I am an electrician, and should have realized that on my own) I must say though, that currently my Blaupunkt is clipping before either the front, OR the rear speakers show any signs of stress. Not surprising, the rated power of the head unit is a maximum value. RMS output is closer 15W/channel. This is why an external amp makes such a huge difference. Any recommendations as to a quality 4 channel amplifier? That is really far to vague a question to answer. Answer the following questions and I will be able to give an educated response : 1) How much do you want to spend? 2) Do you mind if it is used? 3) Are you planning on upgrading the Blaupunkt in the future? 4) If you install a sub in the future, will you still want to amplify the rear speakers? Unlike home hi-fi, I really have no bias with regard to country of origin, or brand, other than the fact that if there are two products which are equal in every way, I would prefer to support North American industry. I think 50W RMS. per channel would more than do the job, but I've also noticed that many car stereo components are not rated in Watts RMS. Should I aim for higher power on account of this? No, if you take care to buy from a manufacturer that has a reputation for realistic or understated ratings 50W/channel is plenty. Thanks for your excellent explanation about sub woofers, and how to install them in vehicles. I will take it to heart, and if this hobby continues to grow, I will likely install a sub woofer in the trunk. The whole idea of a 6 or 8" woofer installed in the car, in a proper enclosure, is not without appeal either, because I like to take long road trips (want to go down the coast, from Vancouver to California next summer), and as much as I like music I need to have some trunk space too. The Cavalier's trunk isn't exactly cavernous as it comes from the factory, let alone if I install a large speaker enclosure into it. I also don't want to disturb access to the spare tire too drastically. My main priority right now, is getting clean, crisp response, with plenty of dynamic range, from my four main speakers. My 10" sub will be installed in a custom fibreglass enclosure moulded to the cavity on the left side of the trunk. I plan to remove the carpet, build the enclosure using the body of the car, and then reinstall the carpet so that it look like there is no speaker. My amp(s) will be mounted on the back of the rear seats, folding them down still won't be a problem if the install is done correctly. Finished product = sub and amps in trunk without losing any space (pretty much). -- Regards, Dan Snooks |
#13
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
Hey,
Thanks for your help... I'll reply point by point, them under a front seat but that is not going to happen in a Cavalier ! Come to think of it, I do remember seeing an amp under the seat in my friend's Corolla! Right now I am thinking about mounting the amp upside down on the bottom of the rear deck, right between and slightly behind the 6x9's, so that it clears the trunk closing mechanism. Of course, I will have to wait till I get an amp before I'll know if it's going to fit this way. Shielded RCA cables. If you want to maintain fader control (front to rear) you will need 2 sets of RCAs. Sadly, my head unit only has one set of pre-outs. I have done a little looking into it, and my options look like: a) lose fader control b) adapt front speaker level outputs to feed power amplifier. I'll run two pairs of RCA cables, just in case I decide to upgrade the head unit at some later time. I think that option "a" would sound better, because it avoids the Blaupunkt's cheap integrated output stage. It's not like I ever use the fader control anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a loss. (especially because I am an electrician, and should have realized that on my own) That's pretty cool - one electrican I knew made an entire custom dual exhaust system for his '77 Corvette on a conduit bender. I've never seen such beautiful work before, it fit like a glove.. You guys can be pretty resourceful! Not surprising, the rated power of the head unit is a maximum value. RMS output is closer 15W/channel. This is why an external amp makes such a huge difference. I don't understand why they can't just be honest with the ratings... it's not doing anyone any good to claim that my in dash receiver is putting out "210 Watts" Any recommendations as to a quality 4 channel amplifier? That is really far to vague a question to answer. Answer the following questions and I will be able to give an educated response : Sorry about that. 1) How much do you want to spend? Clarion 4x6 plates in the front, and Clarion triaxial 6x9s in the rear. I can't recall the model numbers, but they are the top of the line in their "power series", I think. I have no intention to change the speakers, so I want something that's going to let me get more out of them. I want something just good enough so that the speakers become the limiting factor (like they should be), and not the amp. I know that's not a direct answer to how much I want to spend, but I suppose the real answer is - whatever it takes, without wasting money. It's not really worth my time to do a half hearted upgrade that is only slightly better than the Blaupunkt. 2) Do you mind if it is used? Not at all, in fact I would prefer it - I'm not going to see this thing, just hear it, and if I can get better performance for the same dollars then for sure I'd go for it. The only thing I will avoid at all costs, is stolen equipment - just no interest in messing around with that stuff. 3) Are you planning on upgrading the Blaupunkt in the future? Not in the near future, but eventually. It all depends how long I keep the car. It's a 1997, with 120,000 Km on it, so it has a few years left. 4) If you install a sub in the future, will you still want to amplify the rear speakers? Yes, for 100% sure. I it would be a total step backwards to do anything else, I think. I'll also note that I would prefer if the amplifier has a basic electronic crossover of some sort built into it, so that once I do get a sub, I can prevent the bass below 100Hz or so from reaching the Clarions. My 10" sub will be installed in a custom fibreglass enclosure moulded to the cavity on the left side of the trunk. I plan to remove the carpet, build the enclosure using the body of the car, and then reinstall the carpet so that it look like there is no speaker. My amp(s) will be mounted on the back of the rear seats, folding them down still won't be a problem if the install is done correctly. Finished product = sub and amps in trunk without losing any space (pretty much). That sounds like an awesome install. I've never used fibreglass for anything, and since I live in an apartment, I have to keep my projects shorter than a one day time frame... so that option is out for me. I was looking at JL Audio's website a couple days ago, and I noticed that some of their smaller speakers barely need a cubic foot in a sealed cabinet. I'm going to need to do some thinking about it, but I have a feeling a sub is going to end up in my trunk sooner or later. I'm thinking an MDF enclosure of some sort. Maybe I'll even buy an enclosure, just to make things easier. Anyhow thanks for the advice Max P.S. What sort of car do you have? |
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
Max Holubitsky wrote
Sadly, my head unit only has one set of pre-outs. I have done a little looking into it, and my options look like: a) lose fader control b) adapt front speaker level outputs to feed power amplifier. I'll run two pairs of RCA cables, just in case I decide to upgrade the head unit at some later time. I think that option "a" would sound better, because it avoids the Blaupunkt's cheap integrated output stage. It's not like I ever use the fader control anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a loss. If you are not concerned about losing fader control two sets of RCAs will be fine. I had a minor brain fart during the last post. If you want to keep fader control and allow for upgrading the deck and adding a sub in the future you need 3 sets of RCAs. High end decks have a third (and sometimes fourth, but that is not controlled by the deck volume) RCA output for sub. This allows you to control the sub from the deck (very useful for tuning). Alternatively, you can use an active crossover to split up the signal from one set of RCAs and run everything from there. That's pretty cool - one electrican I knew made an entire custom dual exhaust system for his '77 Corvette on a conduit bender. I've never seen such beautiful work before, it fit like a glove.. You guys can be pretty resourceful! We have our moments :-) I don't understand why they can't just be honest with the ratings... it's not doing anyone any good to claim that my in dash receiver is putting out "210 Watts" C'mon now, same thing happens in the home. Kenwood/Pioneer/Sony/JVC ... all of them make very nice equipment (for a price) but at Future Shop you can get their crap that says 100W x 5 (puhlease). 1) How much do you want to spend? Clarion 4x6 plates in the front, and Clarion triaxial 6x9s in the rear. I can't recall the model numbers, but they are the top of the line in their "power series", I think. I have no intention to change the speakers, so I want something that's going to let me get more out of them. I want something just good enough so that the speakers become the limiting factor (like they should be), and not the amp. I know that's not a direct answer to how much I want to spend, but I suppose the real answer is - whatever it takes, without wasting money. It's not really worth my time to do a half hearted upgrade that is only slightly better than the Blaupunkt. That is the best answer you could give. 2) Do you mind if it is used? Not at all, in fact I would prefer it - I'm not going to see this thing, just hear it, and if I can get better performance for the same dollars then for sure I'd go for it. The only thing I will avoid at all costs, is stolen equipment - just no interest in messing around with that stuff. I would recommend the A/D/S 450MX that Ge0 is selling right now. If you can't see a post from him about it, just start a new thread with the heading "Pinging Ge0" There are literally hundreds (thousands?) of amps available that would satisfy your needs. Reputation is the most important factor when choosing what to go with IMO. 3) Are you planning on upgrading the Blaupunkt in the future? Not in the near future, but eventually. It all depends how long I keep the car. It's a 1997, with 120,000 Km on it, so it has a few years left. Who cares about the car ;-) The beauty of car audio is that for the most part everything can be pulled out and put into the next set of wheels. Also, if you kept the factory equipment, just put that back in when you ditch the car. 4) If you install a sub in the future, will you still want to amplify the rear speakers? Yes, for 100% sure. I it would be a total step backwards to do anything else, I think. I'll also note that I would prefer if the amplifier has a basic electronic crossover of some sort built into it, so that once I do get a sub, I can prevent the bass below 100Hz or so from reaching the Clarions. In that case, you may want to get a 5 channel amp so that you won't need another amp later to run the sub. Some brand names to look at include (in no particular order) : PPI, Sony, Alpine, JL Audio, Soundstream, Zapco, Kicker, * McIntosh *, Orion, Pheonix Gold, Rockford Fosgate, A/D/S, and Xtant. Many people don't bother ampifying the rear speakers once they have a subwoofer. They run the rear speakers off the deck and high pass them. Once you have the sub, the rear speakers are just there for fill. Food for thought. That sounds like an awesome install. I've never used fibreglass for anything, and since I live in an apartment, I have to keep my projects shorter than a one day time frame... so that option is out for me. I was looking at JL Audio's website a couple days ago, and I noticed that some of their smaller speakers barely need a cubic foot in a sealed cabinet. I'm going to need to do some thinking about it, but I have a feeling a sub is going to end up in my trunk sooner or later. I'm thinking an MDF enclosure of some sort. Maybe I'll even buy an enclosure, just to make things easier. You may want to look into having a shop do a custom stealth box for you, it will probably cost over CAN$200 but the results would maximize available trunk space. P.S. What sort of car do you have? I have a 2003 Cavalier, a 1994 Sunbird, a 1985 Firebird and a 1969 GMC 1500 Fleetside. The install I was referring to in my posts is the Cavalier. I have crazy plans for the Sunbird. -- Regards, Dan Snooks |
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97 Cavalier Speakers Upgrade? - completed
Max Holubitsky wrote
4) If you install a sub in the future, will you still want to amplify the rear speakers? Yes, for 100% sure. I it would be a total step backwards to do anything else, I think. I'll also note that I would prefer if the amplifier has a basic electronic crossover of some sort built into it, so that once I do get a sub, I can prevent the bass below 100Hz or so from reaching the Clarions. I meant to throw this link into my previous post. It is great for information seeking, and not just amps ... everything car audio. http://www.teamrocs.com/links/manufacturers.htm -- Regards, Dan Snooks |
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