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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 13, 1:12 pm, "Craig Ruggels" wrote:
Have a small studio, but am tired of always switching cables. Rane or will
the Behringer work well., needs to be clean, no noise?


It will work just fine, for a while. Keep in mind that patchbays that
work for 50 years or more (though they still require occasional
cleaning) cost $500. Don't let the fact that the Behringer is likely
to have some failures sooner stop you from enjoying the pleasures of
using a well thought out patchbay.

Don't forget to budget for cables. Remember that instead of one cable
going from output A to input B, you'll need two cables, one from
output A to the patchbay, and another from the patchbay to input B.

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HKC HKC is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Isn't the 2000 version the unbalanced one, anyway I have 3 or 4 PX3000s (the
balanced version) and they work very well. It's true that they probably
won't last forever but I use them in a pretty busy studio and 3 years down
the road they still work fine. As a matter of fact I just bought a couple
more to replace some worn out Neutriks because they really are quite nice
(considering the price they are bloody marvellous).

"Mike Rivers" skrev i en meddelelse
ups.com...
On Mar 13, 1:12 pm, "Craig Ruggels" wrote:
Have a small studio, but am tired of always switching cables. Rane or
will
the Behringer work well., needs to be clean, no noise?


It will work just fine, for a while. Keep in mind that patchbays that
work for 50 years or more (though they still require occasional
cleaning) cost $500. Don't let the fact that the Behringer is likely
to have some failures sooner stop you from enjoying the pleasures of
using a well thought out patchbay.

Don't forget to budget for cables. Remember that instead of one cable
going from output A to input B, you'll need two cables, one from
output A to the patchbay, and another from the patchbay to input B.



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Craig Ruggels Craig Ruggels is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Have a small studio, but am tired of always switching cables. Rane or will
the Behringer work well., needs to be clean, no noise?
Your comments apprieciated.
Thanks Craig

--
www.craigruggels.com


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Craig Ruggels wrote:
Have a small studio, but am tired of always switching cables. Rane or will
the Behringer work well., needs to be clean, no noise?


My personal feeling is that if you want a patchbay that actually works,
spend the money and get a long frame type. The cheapie Ranes will work
for a while, but they won't be reliable with heavy use.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 13, 12:56 pm, "HKC" wrote:

Isn't the 2000 version the unbalanced one,


The only patchbays I've ever seen from Behringer had TRS jacks. I
don't know what the model numbers were, but I know I've seen two
different models. One had switches on the top to select the
normalling, the other one had something different that I don't
remember.



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Agent 86 Agent 86 is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:03:27 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Craig Ruggels wrote:
Have a small studio, but am tired of always switching cables. Rane or
will the Behringer work well., needs to be clean, no noise?


My personal feeling is that if you want a patchbay that actually works,
spend the money and get a long frame type. The cheapie Ranes will work
for a while, but they won't be reliable with heavy use. --scott


What the cheapie patch bays are really good for is when you are first
adding a patch bay to your set up. If you haven't used a patch bay before,
then you have some experimenting to do before you can really define your
workflow. During that time, it's way better to have jacks on the back
instead of solder lugs.

When the jacks wear out on the cheapie, if you haven't changed anything on
the back panel in six months, it's time for a real patch bay. If you
rewired your entire setup last week, buy another cheapie.

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HKC HKC is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

When the jacks wear out on the cheapie, if you haven't changed anything on
the back panel in six months, it's time for a real patch bay.



Or another cheapie, you can buy 5-6 cheap ones for the price of one with
solder lugs. The problem with the jack ones is the actual jack plugs. You
have to calculate with buying 48 stereo jacks when you buy your first cheap
patchbay which will cost you as much as the actual unit itself.
If you have settled for that kind of patchbay I see no problem in staying
with them even if they only last 5 years or so. You still have to stay in
the business (or use that patchbay) for at least 25 years to make up for
the cost of the ones with solder lugs.
Like I wrote earlier, I have some of these patchbays and one of them is 7
years old and there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever but of course I may
have to shell out $50 one of these days but still...


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Nick Brown Nick Brown is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?


Mike Rivers wrote:
On Mar 13, 12:56 pm, "HKC" wrote:
Isn't the 2000 version the unbalanced one,


The only patchbays I've ever seen from Behringer had TRS jacks. I
don't know what the model numbers were, but I know I've seen two
different models. One had switches on the top to select the
normalling, the other one had something different that I don't
remember.


The 2000 is the unbalanced one with 5-position switches on the top,
which come in handy when you're not entirely sure how you're going to
wiring the patchbay, so long as you remeber to allow yourself
reasonably easy access to the top.

Mine gets very light use, hasn't had any faults. It's probably about
four years old. There are a lot of scuffs around the bolt heads, which
gave me the idea that it wasn't assembled with the same care as on
some older instances of the same model (maybe pre-Chinese
manufacturing), which are also still going strong.

When it starts getting faulty I'll replace it, probably with another
cheap one.

-Nick

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Laurence Payne Laurence Payne is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:36:01 +0100, "HKC" wrote:

The problem with the jack ones is the actual jack plugs. You
have to calculate with buying 48 stereo jacks when you buy your first cheap
patchbay which will cost you as much as the actual unit itself.


Why would you need additional jacks? Or do you mean plugs?
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Ben - TheStudioRI.com Ben - TheStudioRI.com is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 13, 11:56 am, "HKC" wrote:
Isn't the 2000 version the unbalanced one, anyway I have 3 or 4 PX3000s (the
balanced version) and they work very well. It's true that they probably
won't last forever but I use them in a pretty busy studio and 3 years down
the road they still work fine. As a matter of fact I just bought a couple
more to replace some worn out Neutriks because they really are quite nice
(considering the price they are bloody marvellous).

"Mike Rivers" skrev i en meddelelsenews:1173803650.148327.15270@q40g2000cwq .googlegroups.com...



On Mar 13, 1:12 pm, "Craig Ruggels" wrote:
Have a small studio, but am tired of always switching cables. Rane or
will
the Behringer work well., needs to be clean, no noise?


It will work just fine, for a while. Keep in mind that patchbays that
work for 50 years or more (though they still require occasional
cleaning) cost $500. Don't let the fact that the Behringer is likely
to have some failures sooner stop you from enjoying the pleasures of
using a well thought out patchbay.


Don't forget to budget for cables. Remember that instead of one cable
going from output A to input B, you'll need two cables, one from
output A to the patchbay, and another from the patchbay to input B.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I've got three Neutriks that are about 7 years old and they are
starting to crap out. worked well while they lasted hehe. I'm going
to start looking for some mid priced bays to replace them... so far
I've only seen cheap and expensive hehe (then again, I havnt looked
that hard hehe).



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Agent 86 Agent 86 is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:36:01 +0100, HKC wrote:

When the jacks wear out on the cheapie, if you haven't changed anything on
the back panel in six months, it's time for a real patch bay.



Or another cheapie, you can buy 5-6 cheap ones for the price of one with
solder lugs. The problem with the jack ones is the actual jack plugs. You
have to calculate with buying 48 stereo jacks when you buy your first
cheap patchbay which will cost you as much as the actual unit itself.


I thought someone had told me the Behringer patchbay had sets of 4 jacks
mounted on circuit cards, so you could only replace them 4 at a time, and
only with parts purchased from Behringer or scarfed from a similar unit.
What brand do you have, and is it different from this. My thought was if
you could replace the jacks one at a time with Switchcraft as they went
bad, it could be a pretty reasonable deal. Not as good as a longframe
unit, but more cost effective for a lot of applications.

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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 14, 8:03 pm, Agent 86 wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:36:01 +0100, HKC wrote:
When the jacks wear out on the cheapie, if you haven't changed anything on
the back panel in six months, it's time for a real patch bay.


Or another cheapie, you can buy 5-6 cheap ones for the price of one with
solder lugs. The problem with the jack ones is the actual jack plugs. You
have to calculate with buying 48 stereo jacks when you buy your first
cheap patchbay which will cost you as much as the actual unit itself.


I thought someone had told me the Behringer patchbay had sets of 4 jacks
mounted on circuit cards, so you could only replace them 4 at a time, and
only with parts purchased from Behringer or scarfed from a similar unit.
What brand do you have, and is it different from this. My thought was if
you could replace the jacks one at a time with Switchcraft as they went
bad, it could be a pretty reasonable deal. Not as good as a longframe
unit, but more cost effective for a lot of applications.


I was at GC last night and saw that the Behringer pro 3000 was selling
for $50 each. I almost bought 3 of them, but I was unsure of the
sound quality. I don't care how much I have to spend on a patchbay,
but is a more expensive patchbay any different sonically? or is it
simply structural?


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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

"Ben - TheStudioRI.com" wrote in message
oups.com...
I was at GC last night and saw that the Behringer pro 3000 was selling
for $50 each. I almost bought 3 of them, but I was unsure of the
sound quality. I don't care how much I have to spend on a patchbay,
but is a more expensive patchbay any different sonically? or is it
simply structural?


A patchbay is just a bunch of jacks and copper wire/pcb tracks which don't
influence the sound.

Meindert


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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 15, 11:05 am, "Ben - TheStudioRI.com"
wrote:

I was at GC last night and saw that the Behringer pro 3000 was selling
for $50 each. I almost bought 3 of them, but I was unsure of the
sound quality.


Patchbays, like any other connector, don't have a sound when they're
working properly. When a plug falls out, that can affect sound
quality. If a jack or switch contact gets dirty, that can affect sound
quality. It's just like anything else with a connector on it.

The difference between a good patchbay and a poor one is how soon
things start to give trouble. But if there's a problem, it will be
obvious. You can either ignore it, fix it, or replace the faulty part.

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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 15, 10:18 am, "Mike Rivers" wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:05 am, "Ben - TheStudioRI.com"
wrote:

I was at GC last night and saw that the Behringer pro 3000 was selling
for $50 each. I almost bought 3 of them, but I was unsure of the
sound quality.


Patchbays, like any other connector, don't have a sound when they're
working properly. When a plug falls out, that can affect sound
quality. If a jack or switch contact gets dirty, that can affect sound
quality. It's just like anything else with a connector on it.

The difference between a good patchbay and a poor one is how soon
things start to give trouble. But if there's a problem, it will be
obvious. You can either ignore it, fix it, or replace the faulty part.


I didnt know if there were different metals that the bay would be made
out of. different alloys can conduct better than others... much in
the same way different mic cables can sound different, I wasn't
completely sure if the same held true for cheaper patchbays. Glad it
doesnt!




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Boris Lau Boris Lau is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:
I didnt know if there were different metals that the bay would be made
out of. different alloys can conduct better than others... much in
the same way different mic cables can sound different, I wasn't
completely sure if the same held true for cheaper patchbays. Glad it
doesnt!


A mic cable is in most cases considerably longer than the conducting
parts per channel in a patch bay. I wouldn't be too worried about these
effects.

Boris

--
http://www.borislau.de - computer science, music, photos
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Meindert Sprang Meindert Sprang is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

"Ben - TheStudioRI.com" wrote in message
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I didnt know if there were different metals that the bay would be made
out of. different alloys can conduct better than others


You would be talking about differences in the sub-milli ohm range. Far less
than the contact resistance of the jacks. And far less than the resitance of
the patch cables. And astronomically less than the input resistance of an
audio input.

Meindert


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:

I was at GC last night and saw that the Behringer pro 3000 was selling
for $50 each. I almost bought 3 of them, but I was unsure of the
sound quality. I don't care how much I have to spend on a patchbay,
but is a more expensive patchbay any different sonically? or is it
simply structural?


It should be simply structural, but that's still a big difference when
things start failing.

The whole point of running balanced 600 ohm lines everywhere is to minimize
cable and connector issues.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 15, 12:56 pm, "Ben - TheStudioRI.com"
wrote:

I didnt know if there were different metals that the bay would be made
out of. different alloys can conduct better than others.


Well, as far as I know, they don't make patchbays with silver jacks,
and that's about the only conductor that really makes a difference
(however slight). Jacks that are bright plated are less prone to
corrosion, and that's a good thing.

.. much in
the same way different mic cables can sound different,


There's one audio company (and probably a bunch of audiophile
companies) that makes cables with silver plated wire, but mostly the
reason why mic cables sound different, if they sound different at all
(and please, let's not go there now) is because of differences in
capacitance between conductors or between conductor and shield.

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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 15, 2:11 pm, "Mike Rivers" wrote:
On Mar 15, 12:56 pm, "Ben - TheStudioRI.com"
wrote:

I didnt know if there were different metals that the bay would be made
out of. different alloys can conduct better than others.


Well, as far as I know, they don't make patchbays with silver jacks,
and that's about the only conductor that really makes a difference
(however slight). Jacks that are bright plated are less prone to
corrosion, and that's a good thing.

.. much in
the same way different mic cables can sound different,


There's one audio company (and probably a bunch of audiophile
companies) that makes cables with silver plated wire, but mostly the
reason why mic cables sound different, if they sound different at all
(and please, let's not go there now) is because of differences in
capacitance between conductors or between conductor and shield.


ok, we won't go there, but man, you gotta listen to a Zaolla mic cable
some time!



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Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:

ok, we won't go there, but man, you gotta listen to a Zaolla mic cable
some time!


I have. It sounds different. Different isn't necessarily better.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On Mar 15, 5:45 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:



ok, we won't go there, but man, you gotta listen to a Zaolla mic cable
some time!


I have. It sounds different. Different isn't necessarily better.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


Well, it certainly has a greater frequency response. Amazing extended
high end. But I do conceed that sometimes they can be too full.

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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On Mar 16, 1:48 am, "Ben - TheStudioRI.com" wrote:

Zaolla mic cable

Well, it certainly has a greater frequency response. Amazing extended
high end. But I do conceed that sometimes they can be too full.


And so can some of the people who make a claim like that about mic
cables, particularly without numbers to back it up.

I warned you not to go there. Here goes the thread about patchbays.

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:
On Mar 15, 5:45 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:

ok, we won't go there, but man, you gotta listen to a Zaolla mic cable
some time!


I have. It sounds different. Different isn't necessarily better.


Well, it certainly has a greater frequency response. Amazing extended
high end. But I do conceed that sometimes they can be too full.


No, it doesn't have a greater frequency response. The Canare stuff measures
nice and flat well beyond 20 KHz with any reasonable source and load, even
with a couple thousand feet lengths.

Therefore what the Zaolla cable is doing to the high end is an _alteration_
to the sound. That's fine if that's what you want.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On Mar 16, 11:39 am, (hank alrich) wrote:
Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:
Well, it certainly has a greater frequency response.


When is the last time you put some mic cable on a bench and ran
frequency response tests on it? Any basic intact mic cable has response
so far beyond our hearing it's not even funny. So what you're hearing
with those cables is an alteration of the sound, and one you cannot
adjust. If you want to tweak "air" I suggest the Speck ASC EQ, which has
a lovely top band.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam


so, you're telling me that by using more pure conductors, you're not
getting a better overall top end, more defined with less smearing?
Maybe frequency response was not the proper term I should have used,
but I would certainly not suggest that the sound would be hyped as
with using an EQ to add air. I own a pair of Zaolla mic cables. At
$230 a pop, they are not cheap, but the sonic difference between those
cables and a standard $30 mic cable CANNOT be achieved by compensating
with EQ. Lord knows I've tried lol.

p.s. sorry mike If it's a consolation, I bought a patchbay today
lol.



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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:

Well, it certainly has a greater frequency response.


When is the last time you put some mic cable on a bench and ran
frequency response tests on it? Any basic intact mic cable has response
so far beyond our hearing it's not even funny. So what you're hearing
with those cables is an alteration of the sound, and one you cannot
adjust. If you want to tweak "air" I suggest the Speck ASC EQ, which has
a lovely top band.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:

ok, we won't go there, but man, you gotta listen to a Zaolla mic cable
some time!

I have. It sounds different. Different isn't necessarily better.


Well, it certainly has a greater frequency response. Amazing extended
high end. But I do conceed that sometimes they can be too full.


No, it doesn't have a greater frequency response. The Canare stuff measures
nice and flat well beyond 20 KHz with any reasonable source and load, even
with a couple thousand feet lengths.

Therefore what the Zaolla cable is doing to the high end is an _alteration_
to the sound. That's fine if that's what you want.



It gives you "more". Lots of folks want "more".

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
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Craig Ruggels Craig Ruggels is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Well thanks for all the input, bought the behringer px 3000, works great,
but one thing thru this trwad was missed, if you dont have a cable tester it
would be wise to get one, before you but all the wires back.

thanks again

--
www.craigruggels.com
"Ben - TheStudioRI.com" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 16, 11:39 am, (hank alrich) wrote:
Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:
Well, it certainly has a greater frequency response.


When is the last time you put some mic cable on a bench and ran
frequency response tests on it? Any basic intact mic cable has response
so far beyond our hearing it's not even funny. So what you're hearing
with those cables is an alteration of the sound, and one you cannot
adjust. If you want to tweak "air" I suggest the Speck ASC EQ, which has
a lovely top band.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam


so, you're telling me that by using more pure conductors, you're not
getting a better overall top end, more defined with less smearing?
Maybe frequency response was not the proper term I should have used,
but I would certainly not suggest that the sound would be hyped as
with using an EQ to add air. I own a pair of Zaolla mic cables. At
$230 a pop, they are not cheap, but the sonic difference between those
cables and a standard $30 mic cable CANNOT be achieved by compensating
with EQ. Lord knows I've tried lol.

p.s. sorry mike If it's a consolation, I bought a patchbay today
lol.



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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

On Mar 16, 12:31 pm, "Ben - TheStudioRI.com"
wrote:

so, you're telling me that by using more pure conductors, you're not
getting a better overall top end, more defined with less smearing?
Maybe frequency response was not the proper term I should have used,


Whatever you're hearing isn't due to extended frequency response.
There's a possibility that the stranded conductors make better contact
with each other, reducing the "semiconductor" effect. It's also
possible that the end-to-end resistance may be lower than standard tin
plated copper, improving the "Q" of a filter that may be formed from
the capacitance of the cable.

It may also be that the physical construction of the cable - the
diameter of the conductors, the distance between them and between a
conductor and the shield, and the dielectric constant of the
insulation results in a lower capacitance per foot, which means less
high frequency attenuation of the microphone (the source), This can
give an apparent boost in high frequency response of the SYSTEM (mic
plus cable plus preamp) but not an increase in high frequency response
of the cable itself. That can be easily measured. The system response
cannot be easily measured. It's not impossible but not something I'd
expect you (Ben) to be able to do at home.

I own a pair of Zaolla mic cables. At
$230 a pop, they are not cheap, but the sonic difference between those
cables and a standard $30 mic cable CANNOT be achieved by compensating
with EQ. Lord knows I've tried lol.


We all like to be able to justify our purchases, particularly of
"edge" products. If you care enough about the change in sound through
these cables so that they're worth the cost to you, fine. But not
everyone would find that single investment worth while. Otherwise all
cables would be made out of silver and they'd probably cost $100.

p.s. sorry mike If it's a consolation, I bought a patchbay today


Just don't run your $230 mic cables through it.


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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Mike Rivers wrote:

Whatever you're hearing isn't due to extended frequency response.
There's a possibility that the stranded conductors make better contact
with each other, reducing the "semiconductor" effect. It's also
possible that the end-to-end resistance may be lower than standard tin
plated copper, improving the "Q" of a filter that may be formed from
the capacitance of the cable.


Actually, more likely the use of plated conductors of different composition
_increases_ the semiconductor effect and that's what is causing the
increase in brightness. I have seen this in more than one audiophile cable
design.

Standard OFC stranded copper out of the Belden catalogue is going to be
much more neutral and accurate. But maybe neutrality isn't what you want.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Ben - TheStudioRI.com Ben - TheStudioRI.com is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

This can
give an apparent boost in high frequency response of the SYSTEM (mic
plus cable plus preamp) but not an increase in high frequency response
of the cable itself. That can be easily measured. The system response
cannot be easily measured. It's not impossible but not something I'd
expect you (Ben) to be able to do at home.




I don't need fancy equipement. I use my ears.



We all like to be able to justify our purchases, particularly of
"edge" products. If you care enough about the change in sound through
these cables so that they're worth the cost to you, fine. But not
everyone would find that single investment worth while. Otherwise all
cables would be made out of silver and they'd probably cost $100.


If we all care enough to own $1000+ mics and pres and comps, etc..
then what's the big deal about spending more for a mic cable?


p.s. sorry mike If it's a consolation, I bought a patchbay today


Just don't run your $230 mic cables through it.


???


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Ben - TheStudioRI.com Ben - TheStudioRI.com is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?



Standard OFC stranded copper out of the Belden catalogue is going to be
much more neutral and accurate. But maybe neutrality isn't what you want.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


somtimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you need something more
neutral... hehe.

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Behringer 2000 audio patchbays?

Ben - TheStudioRI.com wrote:
This can
give an apparent boost in high frequency response of the SYSTEM (mic
plus cable plus preamp) but not an increase in high frequency response
of the cable itself. That can be easily measured. The system response
cannot be easily measured. It's not impossible but not something I'd
expect you (Ben) to be able to do at home.


I don't need fancy equipement. I use my ears.


Ahh, but you DO need fancy equipment, so you can understand what your
ears are telling you. Likewise you need to use your ears so you know
what the equipment readings actually mean.

If the response measures flat, but there is a perceived tonal change,
what is going on is almost certainly harmonic or intermodulation issues
caused by nonlinearity. This is a good thing to know, because it tells
you basically what is going on, how to measure what _is_ going on, and
how to simulate it isolation.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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