Hi all, I'm looking for recommendations on upgrading my audio chain.
My current signal path goes like this:

AT 4040 or SM 57 - Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro preamps using the channels
insert outputs to skip the Mackie's EQ, etc - Echo Mia card -
Cubase SX1 running on Windows XP.

My initial gut feeling is that I should upgrade my preamp to a real
preamp and am looking at getting a RNP, but wanted to check here to see
what other people thought.

More details:

I am not unhappy with my current recordings, but I know that I am using
entry level equipment and feel the time has come where I should upgrade
my equipment.

I only record one or two channels at a time- I do not track drums at
home as I do not have a proper room for drums. I only track guitars,
bass, vocals, etc. The type of music that I make is rock. I use some
soft synths.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

~jason

Jason wrote:

I am not unhappy with my current recordings, but I know that I am using
entry level equipment and feel the time has come where I should upgrade
my equipment.

This is a terrible reason to upgrade.

I suggest first getting Moulton's _Golden Ears_ CD training program and
religiously going through it every day.

I'd also suggest spending money on better monitoring. But then, I suggest
this to everyone, because you can't _ever_ have good enough monitoring.

After doing these things, THEN you'll have better reasons to upgrade,
but at least you'll know why.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 6/22/05 5:05 PM, in article
, "Jason"
wrote:

Hi all, I'm looking for recommendations on upgrading
....
AT 4040 or SM 57 - Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro preamps
I am not unhappy with my current recordings,
My initial gut feeling is that I should upgrade my preamp


If your gut feeling-

A- isn;t unhappy with what you HEAR

B- isn't based on 2 years or more of heavy experimentation with all various
uses of the stuff you have coupled with advice from at least 5 recordists
who's work you think is Really Good.

C- you;re serious about getting better sound results.

(any ONE of these means you have more work to do before spending Dollar-One,
And I'll wager all 3 apply)

Then pocket your C-notes and go find a local recording engineer (go around
and interview them briefly) who you think can show you a thing or two.
Establish a Going Rate (whether it be $40/hr or a night at the Pub Of their
Choice) and have them show you a thing or six USING YOUR LEVEL OF GEAR.

After $500 of this type of upgrade you'll not only
Be Better, you'll
have an inroad into a studio and,
(if you keep your mouth shut and ears open),
a reputation as a damned decent assistant prospect. ,,,
And you'll be asking really cogent queetions here that will be even MORE
fun!

Give us a running account of how it goes!

JV


It should be a fine thing when you find an engineer who relishes the
challenge.

Well...
If you have $500 burning a hole in your pocket, the RNP is hard to beat
for a preamp selection. I also like the Grace 101 preamp. You may find
your SM57 sounds better with those preamps than with your Mackie pre's.

Another suggestion is to get your hands on a few more microphones.
Having a few different dynamic mics at your disposal can help you catch
some different kinds of sounds. For $500, you could get several great
mics.

Scott's suggestion about your monitoring environment is the gospel
truth, however you might not be able to accomplish much in that area
with $500 except maybe some sonic treatments to walls / floor.

-dave
www.themoodrings.com

"Jason" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi all, I'm looking for recommendations on upgrading my audio chain.
My current signal path goes like this:

AT 4040 or SM 57 - Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro preamps using the channels
insert outputs to skip the Mackie's EQ, etc - Echo Mia card -
Cubase SX1 running on Windows XP.


Those mics are fine and the VLZ's are fine, especially for what you pay for
them. That being said the SM57-VLZ is one the most horrible combinations
I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. I wouldn't even want to use it for
live sound.


I am not unhappy with my current recordings, but I know that I am using
entry level equipment and feel the time has come where I should upgrade
my equipment.


I see Scott Dorsey has answered this better than I ever could have (as
usual).

Geetar Dave wrote:

Scott's suggestion about your monitoring environment is the gospel
truth, however you might not be able to accomplish much in that area
with $500 except maybe some sonic treatments to walls / floor.

.... which would be a VERY wise place to spend your hard-earned cash.
http://www.realtraps.com/

Jason wrote:
Hi all, I'm looking for recommendations on upgrading my
audio chain.
My current signal path goes like this:

AT 4040 or SM 57 - Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro preamps using the
channels
insert outputs to skip the Mackie's EQ, etc - Echo Mia
card -
Cubase SX1 running on Windows XP.

There's a lot of microphones between an AT4040 and the SM57,
and quite a few above the AT4040. If your microphone
cabinet were an ice cream store, the only flavors you have
are Butter Pecan and Vanilla.

Jason wrote:
Hi all, I'm looking for recommendations on upgrading my audio chain.
My current signal path goes like this:

AT 4040 or SM 57 - Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro preamps using the channels
insert outputs to skip the Mackie's EQ, etc - Echo Mia card -
Cubase SX1 running on Windows XP.

My initial gut feeling is that I should upgrade my preamp to a real
preamp and am looking at getting a RNP, but wanted to check here to see
what other people thought.

More details:

I am not unhappy with my current recordings, but I know that I am using
entry level equipment and feel the time has come where I should upgrade
my equipment.

I only record one or two channels at a time- I do not track drums at
home as I do not have a proper room for drums. I only track guitars,
bass, vocals, etc. The type of music that I make is rock. I use some
soft synths.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

~jason

Jason,
The 1202 pres aren't to bad. I replaced my Echo Gina24 with a Lynx
L22. I think the Lynx sounds better. I agree that you should consider
your room acoustics. I have some Auralex diffusers and 4 Real Trap
bass traps.
Check the http://www.realtraps.com/ web site for some ideas about
setting up your room properly. Great gear won't sound good in a bad
room. I'd spend the $500.00 on room treaments.

DaveT

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I suggest first getting Moulton's _Golden Ears_ CD training program and
religiously going through it every day.

An EARS upgrade?
That sounds like a fantastic idea!

Anahata

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:24:56 GMT, "Ricky Hunt"
wrote:

Those mics are fine and the VLZ's are fine, especially for what you pay for
them. That being said the SM57-VLZ is one the most horrible combinations
I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. I wouldn't even want to use it for
live sound.

This keeps being said. What are the characteristics of this
nastiness? Presumably it also applies to the SM58? I guess we're
not talking audiophile nit-picking here, so the incompatibility is
measurable and we know the reason? What is the reason?

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:24:56 GMT, "Ricky Hunt"
wrote:

This keeps being said. What are the characteristics of this
nastiness? Presumably it also applies to the SM58? I guess we're
not talking audiophile nit-picking here, so the incompatibility is
measurable and we know the reason? What is the reason?

I would give you details but it took too many years of therapy to get over
and I've blocked it out of my mind...no, seriously, it's just bad in about
every way bad audio can be bad. I assume it has something to do with
loading. The SM57 obviously is a great mic and can sound great. The VLZ's
are great little preamps for what they are (especially considering what you
pay for the lot of them). A little sterile but not bad. The two just don't
work well together. I would assume the same with the SM58.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:24:56 GMT, "Ricky Hunt"
wrote:

Those mics are fine and the VLZ's are fine, especially for what you pay for
them. That being said the SM57-VLZ is one the most horrible combinations
I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. I wouldn't even want to use it for
live sound.

This keeps being said. What are the characteristics of this
nastiness? Presumably it also applies to the SM58? I guess we're
not talking audiophile nit-picking here, so the incompatibility is
measurable and we know the reason? What is the reason?

The reason is that the SM-57 (and the SM-58, which is the same thing with
a wad of foam in front) wants to see a very low-impedance load that is
slightly inductive. If it sees a resistive 5K-or-so load, the diaphragm
is not damped down enough. Dynamic mikes rely on the load impedance of
the preamp to provide some of their damping; the more efficient a mike
is, the more this is usually the case. So changes in the load impedance
will result in changes in the frequency and width of the main diaphragm
resonance.

I am willing to bet that an LC shunt network across the input of the
preamp would fix the problem nicely but I haven't actually tried it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:00:31 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

The reason is that the SM-57 (and the SM-58, which is the same thing
with a wad of foam in front) wants to see a very low-impedance load that
is slightly inductive. If it sees a resistive 5K-or-so load, the
diaphragm is not damped down enough. Dynamic mikes rely on the load
impedance of the preamp to provide some of their damping; the more
efficient a mike is, the more this is usually the case. So changes in
the load impedance will result in changes in the frequency and width of
the main diaphragm resonance.

According to the MAckie manual, the mic input impedance of the XDR preamps
is 1.3K (resistive I presume). I seem to recall Dan Kennedy posting here
that the mic input impedance of the original GR is around 1.2K. Granted,
there's a transformer in there & we're talking apples to oranges, but as
far as actual impedance numbers, that doesn't seem like a really big
difference, which would imply the inductance part might be the more
important issue. But since there's a transformer in the mic, doesn't the
cartridge see an inductive load anyway? And if you put another transformer
after it, why wouldn't THAT transformer need to see an inductive load as
well?


I am willing to bet that an LC shunt network across the input of the
preamp would fix the problem nicely but I haven't actually tried it.

Certainly cheaper than buying a bunch of different transformers until you
find the right one.

Agent 86 wrote:

According to the MAckie manual, the mic input impedance of the XDR preamps
is 1.3K (resistive I presume). I seem to recall Dan Kennedy posting here
that the mic input impedance of the original GR is around 1.2K. Granted,
there's a transformer in there & we're talking apples to oranges, but as
far as actual impedance numbers, that doesn't seem like a really big
difference, which would imply the inductance part might be the more
important issue. But since there's a transformer in the mic, doesn't the
cartridge see an inductive load anyway? And if you put another transformer
after it, why wouldn't THAT transformer need to see an inductive load as
well?

In a perfect world, the transformer perfectly reflects the load that it
sees on the secondary. In the real world, that doesn't really happen
but it's very clear that the secondary load does affect the primary
source impedance.

Take an SM-58 ball off and tap on the diaphragm and feel it. Then short
pins 2 and 3 on the jack and tap on it again. It feels physically much
harder.

You can do the same thing with a speaker and it's much more dramatic,
but if you do it on an SM-58 it at least shows you how the transformer
inside doesn't change the effect all THAT much.

I am willing to bet that an LC shunt network across the input of the
preamp would fix the problem nicely but I haven't actually tried it.

Certainly cheaper than buying a bunch of different transformers until you
find the right one.

I can mention a bunch of "right ones" including the Jensens that the
original GR uses.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Interesting that Mackie, who seems targeted to low-end home/rock recordists
with the 1202, 1402, etc, would make a pre that sounds so crummy with the
most popular home/rock recording microphone!


"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Laurence Payne wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:24:56 GMT, "Ricky Hunt"
wrote:

Those mics are fine and the VLZ's are fine, especially for what you pay
for
them. That being said the SM57-VLZ is one the most horrible combinations
I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. I wouldn't even want to use it
for
live sound.

This keeps being said. What are the characteristics of this
nastiness? Presumably it also applies to the SM58? I guess we're
not talking audiophile nit-picking here, so the incompatibility is
measurable and we know the reason? What is the reason?

The reason is that the SM-57 (and the SM-58, which is the same thing with
a wad of foam in front) wants to see a very low-impedance load that is
slightly inductive. If it sees a resistive 5K-or-so load, the diaphragm
is not damped down enough. Dynamic mikes rely on the load impedance of
the preamp to provide some of their damping; the more efficient a mike
is, the more this is usually the case. So changes in the load impedance
will result in changes in the frequency and width of the main diaphragm
resonance.

I am willing to bet that an LC shunt network across the input of the
preamp would fix the problem nicely but I haven't actually tried it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message news:d9ebpf$ec3


I am willing to bet that an LC shunt network across the input of the
preamp would fix the problem nicely but I haven't actually tried it.


Or a 820R resistor ?

geoff

Geoff Wood wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message news:d9ebpf$ec3

I am willing to bet that an LC shunt network across the input of the
preamp would fix the problem nicely but I haven't actually tried it.

Or a 820R resistor ?

I did try that, and it helped but it didn't fix it. (And of course the
S/N was degraded).
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

Interesting that Mackie, who seems targeted to low-end home/rock recordists
with the 1202, 1402, etc, would make a pre that sounds so crummy with the
most popular home/rock recording microphone!

They like the sound because it cuts through a mix better than a nice
warm, smooth vocal.

The Mackie Onyx 800R (8 preamps in a box) has an impedance switch on
the first two channels. It covers a pretty wide range, 300 to 2400
ohms, all with inductors, capacitors and resistors - not a transformer
in sight. I find that every mic that I have sounds best on the 1300 or
2400 ohm positions. I don't have any SM-57s, but I have some assorted
dynamics and Beyer ribbons, as well as transformer and transformerless
condenser mics.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Hi all, this is the OP here- thanks so much for taking the time to read
and respond to my post!

Here is more information:

For monitors, I am currently using a pair of Tannoy Reveals. For
accoustic treatment, I am currently using Auralex foam.

My primary goal in life is that I am in bands and record demo
recordings for booking shows, etc. I record at home because it allows
me to do a lot of experimentation with songs that I would not be able
to afford in a real studio.

My goal would be to ultimately get to the point where I can do great
recordings (as opposed to obviously sounding like a "local band".).

My current desires for improvement a

1) Improving my mixing skills. I've gotten alright at recording
my source material (except drums) the way I want it to sound the first
time so that I do not have to do hardly any EQ tweaking when it is time
to mix- it is mostly just about setting levels. However, I would
really like to learn more about EQ and such because I think that would
help me to further get things to set right and have everything in it
own place.
2) Recording my voice. I think this might be a mic issue with the
AT 4040- my voice sounds pretty dark in the recordings and I end up
adding a bit in the 2-3k range in EQ.

My biggest vice is that my computer constantly crashes, but I blame
that on the fact that I am sharing my recording PC with my wife, who
uses it for homework, surfing the net, etc. I am going to be getting a
seperate computer for recording in the next couple of weeks (I got a
bonus at work and am using that toward computer/upgrades).

I know I have a very limited mic selection, but honestly, I almost
never use the SM 57 because I don't like the way it sounds on anything
I record with it- the 4040 always sounds better. I have not invested
in any more mics because I have almost always been able to get the
sound I wanted with the 4040 by using positioning, changing my source's
sounds, using the bass rolloff, etc. I was going under the idea of
trying to learn everything about one mic rather than have a bunch of
mics to try to figure out.

However, I do not know if that mic is the best mic for my voice, but I
guess my fear is that I am not getting what I can get out of my mics by
not having a quality preamp, and I would fear adding any more mics
without having that base taken care of first.

That all being said, I really appreciate Scott's Golden Ears
recommendation as I think that would help me to take my mixing to the
next level. I also really appreciate the Real Traps recommendations- I
have spent the last couple of days reading about Golden Ears & Real
Traps! ;^) As far as monitoring, I am not sure how much I would be
able to upgrade from Tannoy Reveals for $500- any ideas? Any thoughts
about my microphone/preamp quandary?

Thanks again for taking the time to read and reply!

~jason

On 24 Jun 2005 17:32:03 -0700, "Jason" wrote:

My current desires for improvement a

2) Recording my voice. I think this might be a mic issue with the
AT 4040- my voice sounds pretty dark in the recordings and I end up
adding a bit in the 2-3k range in EQ.


And you say the SM57 doesn't sound good either? The presence peak on
the 57 sounds like just what you might need to bring out the 2 - 3 kHz
range. If you want to spend most of the $500 on a single mic, you
might try an SM-7.


My biggest vice is that my computer constantly crashes, but I blame
that on the fact that I am sharing my recording PC with my wife, who
uses it for homework, surfing the net, etc. I am going to be getting a
seperate computer for recording in the next couple of weeks (I got a
bonus at work and am using that toward computer/upgrades).

Great idea. Newer XP machines are so stable I find myself reading
e-mail surfing the net working ms word or any number of things while
I'm recording or processing non-critical audio, ie minidiscs transfers
and stuff. I don't get any crashes or gaps in the audio or anything
like used to happen on my old 98 machine if I tried to do anything
while recording. I still don't recommend screwing around with other
programs for anything that matters, just an indication you will be
very happy with your new computer.


I know I have a very limited mic selection, but honestly, I almost
never use the SM 57 because I don't like the way it sounds on anything
I record with it- the 4040 always sounds better.

Given only 2 mics to choose from these 2 are a good choice. Still,
I'd probably get something else too. Not necessarily the SM-7. I'd
rather change the mic first instead of adding eq if I'm not getting
what I want out of a mic.

However, I do not know if that mic is the best mic for my voice, but I
guess my fear is that I am not getting what I can get out of my mics by
not having a quality preamp, and I would fear adding any more mics
without having that base taken care of first.

I didn't get what you were using as preamp.

I may be wrong, but I get the learning to mix part may be what to
focus on.

As far as monitoring, I am not sure how much I would be
able to upgrade from Tannoy Reveals for $500- any ideas? Any thoughts
about my microphone/preamp quandary?

I like Tannoys. Get better Tannoys? Better effects? I don't know
what you are already using for preamps?

Julian