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#1
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compact mixer of decent quality
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. They're practically free and they sound like it but I've had it for years and I do so few gigs where I need to provide my own PA that I don't bother to replace it. However every time I do use it I think to myself that I need to replace it. The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons.
Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed directly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality that is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're terrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's about it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway decent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint. The allen and heath zed series seems to have the right size and features (and a built in power supply thankfully) but they seem geared to the home recordist and I'm wondering about reliability versus something like the too-large-footprint mixwiz. Who else even makes a compact mixer? Are the little mackies any good? i haven't used one since I had an original 1202 when they first came out in the mid nineties and I was a teenager so I have no idea how bad it may or may not have sounded. lets say under $1000 give or take for 4-8 mic channels. I don't need built in effects or multiple foldback sends. compact, good sound and a built in power supply are the name of the game. I look forward to your recommendations. As usual, thanks for the discussion. |
#2
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/3/2014 7:18 PM, Nate Najar wrote:
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. . . . . . The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons. I agree with you about the external power supply, but I don't understand why you're having the headroom problem. Are you using the line out from the bass amp into a DI, and into the mic preamp? If you're setting the preamp gain so that it doesn't clip, you should be able to get the bass up to a reasonable level in the mix, unless you need to turn down everything else, and raise the gain on your power amp. Do the meters jive? If you set the preamp gain (trim) so that when you solo the channel pre-fader, you see the meters running between 0 and +10 VU and then set the channel fader and master fader to its design center ("unity gain" which may not actually be unity), do you see the master (mix) level peaking somewhere a bit lower than the soloed channel level? i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're terrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's about it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway decent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint. The smallest Mix Wizard has 8 mic inputs. Is that too much? The allen and heath zed series seems to have the right size and features (and a built in power supply thankfully) but they seem geared to the home recordist and I'm wondering about reliability versus something like the too-large-footprint mixwiz. I don't know for sure, but my inclination is that for two lines that are pretty similar, they use as much of the same parts and circuitry as they can. That saves a lot of money over making two completely different products that aren't really that different. But I suspect that they sell more Mimx Wizards than they do Zeds because everybody needs a mixer for live sound but more and more people are trying to record without one. Are the little mackies any good? i haven't used one since I had an original 1202 The VLZ3 was fine and now they have a VLZ4 which is pretty much the same but uses different ICs. The new ones are quieter than the old ones and with the VLZ3, they finally got the internal gain structure right without compromising the signal-to-noise ratio, which was the problem pre-VLZ3. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#3
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compact mixer of decent quality
Nate Najar wrote:
Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed di= rectly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality t= hat is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're te= rrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for = what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's ab= out it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass= DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway d= ecent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint. Considered a field production mixer? They aren't really designed for the job but they are small and light. I assume the Sonosax and Cooper stuff is beyond your budget but try a Shure FP32 or one of the Sound Devices field mixers. But to be honest... what's wrong with the Yamaha you're using now? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#4
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compact mixer of decent quality
Nate Najar wrote:
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. They're practically free and they sound like it but I've had it for years and I do so few gigs where I need to provide my own PA that I don't bother to replace it. However every time I do use it I think to myself that I need to replace it. The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. That's not headroom - that's gain staging. Make an H pad. Google H pad; people have calculators and everything. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons. Yeah. Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed directly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality that is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're terrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for what i need. So how about the smaller ZED models? Say a ZED 10? 14? i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's about it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway decent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint. The allen and heath zed series seems to have the right size and features (and a built in power supply thankfully) but they seem geared to the home recordist and I'm wondering about reliability versus something like the too-large-footprint mixwiz. They're pretty reliable, and I'd say they're pointed at either live use or recording ( although it's not really enough inputs for that ). Band I played with last year used a ZED 10. It sounded fine. The rooms were bad, but the mixer showed no sign of being unuseable. Who else even makes a compact mixer? Are the little mackies any good? i haven't used one since I had an original 1202 when they first came out in the mid nineties and I was a teenager so I have no idea how bad it may or may not have sounded. They are okay if you take it easy on 'em. Scott's written at length here about features like gain controls in the feedback paths of opamps which makes it not only a gain control but a tone control... lets say under $1000 give or take for 4-8 mic channels. I don't need built in effects or multiple foldback sends. compact, good sound and a built in power supply are the name of the game. I look forward to your recommendations. As usual, thanks for the discussion. I really suspect the ZED 10 is what you are looking for. If you need room to grow, there's the ZED 14. That is what I would get; a ZED 14. Fabienne: Whose motorcycle is this? Butch: It's a chopper, baby. Fabienne: Whose chopper is this? Butch: It's Zed's. Fabienne: Who's Zed? Butch: Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead. N -- Les Cargill |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
thanks everyone!
with the yamaha, I take the balanced, xlr line out from the bass amp and with the gain on the preamp all the way down, the little red channel led lights up on transients and it spends a pop to my speakers- not good. So I instead take the signal from the unbalanced line out through a DI and pad it (15db is my option) and then I have to crank the gain and the channel fader to get decent level. It isn't the end of the world, but when I have to setup and operate everything myself, one less step (in this case the DI) is helpful. The big reason to replace the yamaha is that the external line lump scares the hell out of me. I want to get something with an internal supply that takes an IEC cable. If I'm going to get something new, I want something good. I don't buy crap anymore which is why I have schoeps mics and prism converters now but I also rarely buy anything because I don't want to spend money on crap. When I need more mics I borrow or hire them. Les, your comment about the ZED makes me feel better. I looked at it and features and size are fine. If it will perform satisfactorily, that is what I care about. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the mixwiz that Mike mentioned except that I want something with a smaller footprint. Scott, I looked at the sonosax the other day- it's almost perfect but it is beyond the budget especially considering the types of gigs I do where I would need my own rig. thanks again for taking the time! N |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 04-07-2014 00:18, Nate Najar wrote:
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. They're practically free and they sound like it but I've had it for years and I do so few gigs where I need to provide my own PA that I don't bother to replace it. However every time I do use it I think to myself that I need to replace it. The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons. Soundcraft EPM or EFX. I look forward to your recommendations. As usual, thanks for the discussion. Just my USD 0.02 N Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
Nate -
I have a Yamaha MG102C that is practically brand new http://www.swee****er.com/store/deta...FUEF7AodPUAADA There are four XLR phantom powered inputs plus some phono and/or RCA line inputs, compression, EQ, panning. I think about $100 would do it. Gary Eickmeier |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 04/07/2014 03:33, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nate Najar wrote: Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed di= rectly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality t= hat is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're te= rrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for = what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's ab= out it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass= DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway d= ecent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint. Considered a field production mixer? They aren't really designed for the job but they are small and light. I assume the Sonosax and Cooper stuff is beyond your budget but try a Shure FP32 or one of the Sound Devices field mixers. How much is a Cadac Live1? They do a 8 mic + 4 stereo line-in version which fits in a 19" rack, don't they? |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/3/2014 11:09 PM, Nate Najar wrote:
with the yamaha, I take the balanced, xlr line out from the bass amp and with the gain on the preamp all the way down, the little red channel led lights up on transients and it spends a pop to my speakers- not good. If you're connecting the XLR line output from the amplifier to the XLR mic input on the mixer, you'll have the same problem with just about any mixer. You'd need to pad it down by 20 to 30 dB to avoid clipping the input stage of the mixer, even with the mixer's input gain at minimum. But, you know, I'll bet that the 1/4" hole in the XLR combo jacks on the mic/line inputs on your MG mixer is set up like everyone else's - a 30 dB pad wired to the mic preamp input, maybe with a couple of capacitors to keep phantom power off the line input. Why not try the amplifier's XLR output directly into the line input through an adapter or an XLR-TRS cable. Another alternative is to use an XLR-1/4" adapter between the amplifier line out and a DI box, and then connect the XLR out of the DI to the mic input of the mixer. The XLR-1/4" adapter will unbalance the output of the amplifier, so either use a simple adapter or a short piece of cable if you're making one yourself. Don't use an adapter with a transformer. So I instead take the signal from the unbalanced line out through a DI and pad it (15db is my option) and then I have to crank the gain and the channel fader to get decent level. Assuming yours is a normal DI with a transformer or active circuit that converts the line level input (1/4" jack) to mic level (XLR) there should be no need to pad down the DI output, unless the amp has a really, really hot line output. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
Nate Najar wrote:
with the yamaha, I take the balanced, xlr line out from the bass amp and wi= th the gain on the preamp all the way down, the little red channel led ligh= ts up on transients and it spends a pop to my speakers- not good. 1. The XLR input and the 1/4" input on that console are at diferent levels. You can use an XLR to TRS cable and go into the 1/4" input that has lower gain. 2. You can put an XLR barrel attenuator in the line. You should have a bag of them lying around, they are amazingly useful for all kinds of things. So I ins tead take the signal from the unbalanced line out through a DI and pad it (= 15db is my option) and then I have to crank the gain and the channel fader = to get decent level. It isn't the end of the world, but when I have to set= up and operate everything myself, one less step (in this case the DI) is he= lpful. So what if you go into the DI without the pad? The big reason to replace the yamaha is that the external line lump scares = the hell out of me. I want to get something with an internal supply that t= akes an IEC cable. If I'm going to get something new, I want something goo= d. I don't buy crap anymore which is why I have schoeps mics and prism con= verters now but I also rarely buy anything because I don't want to spend mo= ney on crap. When I need more mics I borrow or hire them. It's true that those things do fail a lot, although the advantage of them is that they get the transformer physically away from the electronics which is otherwise hard to do in a tiny little compact box. Scott, I looked at the sonosax the other day- it's almost perfect but it is= beyond the budget especially considering the types of gigs I do where I wo= uld need my own rig.=20 The Sound Devices mixers are made for similar work but are less expensive and more stripped down. But I think you'd be better off just buying some pads and a spare line lump. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
Nate Najar wrote:
thanks everyone! with the yamaha, I take the balanced, xlr line out from the bass amp and with the gain on the preamp all the way down, the little red channel led lights up on transients and it spends a pop to my speakers- not good. So I instead take the signal from the unbalanced line out through a DI and pad it (15db is my option) and then I have to crank the gain and the channel fader to get decent level. It isn't the end of the world, but when I have to setup and operate everything myself, one less step (in this case the DI) is helpful. I still think you can make an H pad out of a mic cable ( and/or maybe a Radio Shack project box ) and do this better. Since it's an artifact of the bass amp, keep it with the bass amp. Heck, you don't even have to build it - google for "Whirlwind IMP Pad - 20 dB " and "Whirlwind IMP Pad - 30 dB" I have not used this product, but that's nearly certainly where I'd start. My bass amps each have a pot for the output level so I don't have this problem. The big reason to replace the yamaha is that the external line lump scares the hell out of me. I want to get something with an internal supply that takes an IEC cable. It shouldn't. Indeed a lump in the line is generally an easier thing to replace. I realize it signals "cheap" but it's the right kind of cheap - the maker gets to avoid the NRE of emissions and safety testing for the internal power supply, plus is makes shipping and weight easier for overseas-produced goods. A lump in the line will probably also be easier to find. The risk is the power input connector on the mixer. snip Les, your comment about the ZED makes me feel better. I looked at it and features and size are fine. If it will perform satisfactorily, that is what I care about. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the mixwiz that Mike mentioned except that I want something with a smaller footprint. It's a pretty good little mixer, although I've never driven one. I'd investigate the sound quality differences between the ZED and MixWiz before deciding. The MixWiz is about 5 Franklins more. I'd just do that before buying a Mackie or a Behringer. Mackies famously have poor buss headroom and Behringers pop inputs. Scott, I looked at the sonosax the other day- it's almost perfect but it is beyond the budget especially considering the types of gigs I do where I would need my own rig. thanks again for taking the time! N -- Les Cargill |
#12
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compact mixer of decent quality
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
... On 7/3/2014 7:18 PM, Nate Najar wrote: For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. . . . . . The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons. I agree with you about the external power supply, but I don't understand why you're having the headroom problem. Are you using the line out from the bass amp into a DI, and into the mic preamp? If you're setting the preamp gain so that it doesn't clip, you should be able to get the bass up to a reasonable level in the mix, unless you need to turn down everything else, and raise the gain on your power amp. Do the meters jive? If you set the preamp gain (trim) so that when you solo the channel pre-fader, you see the meters running between 0 and +10 VU and then set the channel fader and master fader to its design center ("unity gain" which may not actually be unity), do you see the master (mix) level peaking somewhere a bit lower than the soloed channel level? I've had exactly the same experience on every MG series board I've used which has been several now. There just isn't enough headroom. Turn the preamps down all the way and they still clip audibly with a strong singer or horns, forget about drums. The VLZ3 was fine and now they have a VLZ4 which is pretty much the same but uses different ICs. The new ones are quieter than the old ones and with the VLZ3, they finally got the internal gain structure right without compromising the signal-to-noise ratio, which was the problem pre-VLZ3. +1 on the VLZ3. Other than the well know problem with the ribbon cables they are reliable and cheap used. For a new mixer I'd get the ZED, but for something that didn't get used much I'd pick up a used 1202 VLZ3. Sean |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/3/2014 7:18 PM, Nate Najar wrote:
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. They're practically free and they sound like it but I've had it for years and I do so few gigs where I need to provide my own PA that I don't bother to replace it. However every time I do use it I think to myself that I need to replace it. The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons. Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed directly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality that is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're terrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's about it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway decent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint. The allen and heath zed series seems to have the right size and features (and a built in power supply thankfully) but they seem geared to the home recordist and I'm wondering about reliability versus something like the too-large-footprint mixwiz. Who else even makes a compact mixer? Are the little mackies any good? i haven't used one since I had an original 1202 when they first came out in the mid nineties and I was a teenager so I have no idea how bad it may or may not have sounded. lets say under $1000 give or take for 4-8 mic channels. I don't need built in effects or multiple foldback sends. compact, good sound and a built in power supply are the name of the game. I look forward to your recommendations. As usual, thanks for the discussion. N I see Yamaha has updated that MG series. I know the updated models now show up on the Swee****er site. About 4 years ago I went mixer shopping and tried one of those before buying and keeping a Soundcraft EFX8 mixer. I suspect the MG mixer I brought home at the time was defective as it really was introducing substantial noise. I have been happy with the EFX8. I used it a regular basis hosting an acoustic open mic and I regularly got compliments regarding the sound. (I moved and no longer host an open mic on a regular basis) Soundcraft had some small ones (Notepad series), that I thought would be nice for a small format, however they are discontinued, and they no longer have anything that small. I think they show up on ebay at times. I sometimes play out as a duo with a bass player in a small venue. I have been keeping an eye out as well for a more compact solution. For some events we don't bother with the mixer and each of us goes direct to a powered monitor. Do you need a mixer with effects? (e.g. reverb for vocal) Sometimes I don't bother with a mixer and just use my powered JBL EONs. For an upcoming gig, my vocal mic and guitar will go to one. Bass player will use the other one. It's one of those situations where we really need to minimize set up time. This has worked reasonable well for us, but I do miss having reverb on the vocal. I use a Zoom G2.1u effects pedal to get reverb on the guitar. Danielle |
#14
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/5/2014 12:40 AM, Sean Conolly wrote:
I've had exactly the same experience on every MG series board I've used which has been several now. There just isn't enough headroom. Turn the preamps down all the way and they still clip audibly with a strong singer or horns, forget about drums. That really isn't "not enough headroom." Headroom is a system concept that isn't device-specific. If you want to complain about the mixer itself, complain about not having sufficient gain adjustment range at the front end. But this is a design compromise on a simple mixer, and it's the reason why many more expensive mixers have a built-in swithable pad. All it takes, as many have suggested here, is a pad for a loud source and you'll have enough headroom. But that might not eve be necessary if the line output is connected to a line input, not a mic input. One of the things that I emphasize when I give talks about PA system basics is that specific types of jacks aren't necessarily used for specific purposes. An XLR output isn't always mic level (as is the case with Nate's bass player's amplifier) so it's not correct to connect it to a mic level input even though the connectors mate physically. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#15
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compact mixer of decent quality
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
... On 7/5/2014 12:40 AM, Sean Conolly wrote: I've had exactly the same experience on every MG series board I've used which has been several now. There just isn't enough headroom. Turn the preamps down all the way and they still clip audibly with a strong singer or horns, forget about drums. That really isn't "not enough headroom." Headroom is a system concept that isn't device-specific. If you want to complain about the mixer itself, complain about not having sufficient gain adjustment range at the front end. But this is a design compromise on a simple mixer, and it's the reason why many more expensive mixers have a built-in swithable pad. Take a mic and an average singer into the MG, and you have to turn the trim well down, if not entirely off, to keep it from clipping. In my book you shouldn't need to pad an average singer and mic, which is the typical application for a board like this - which doesn't have pads BTW. That's what I call 'not enough headroom'. Sean |
#16
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/5/2014 4:38 PM, Sean Conolly wrote:
Take a mic and an average singer into the MG, and you have to turn the trim well down, if not entirely off, to keep it from clipping. In my book you shouldn't need to pad an average singer and mic, which is the typical application for a board like this - which doesn't have pads BTW. That's what I call 'not enough headroom'. I understand what you mean, and it's an inconvenience, perhaps even a problem the first time you discover it and you don't have a pad. I call it having too much input sensitivity, but it's a problem that you can do something about pretty easily. If you have a quiet singer and a low output mic and can't turn the gain up as much as you want, that's a real problem. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#17
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compact mixer of decent quality
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Nate Najar wrote: The big reason to replace the yamaha is that the external line lump scares = the hell out of me. I want to get something with an internal supply that t= akes an IEC cable. If I'm going to get something new, I want something goo= d. I don't buy crap anymore which is why I have schoeps mics and prism con= verters now but I also rarely buy anything because I don't want to spend mo= ney on crap. When I need more mics I borrow or hire them. It's true that those things do fail a lot, although the advantage of them is that they get the transformer physically away from the electronics which is otherwise hard to do in a tiny little compact box. Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little problem putting them in the box now. Trevor. |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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compact mixer of decent quality
In article , Trevor wrote:
Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little problem putting them in the box now. That makes the noise issues even worse! Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields AND electrical fields all over. Take a look inside one of the newer Allen and Heath cheapies and look at some of the extreme measures they've had to go through to keep switcher noise under control. It's beautiful work. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#19
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/6/2014 9:11 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
That makes the noise issues even worse! Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields AND electrical fields all over. As I say too often, improved technology doesn't always make things better, but it always changes how we make things (including making things with things that employ the new technology). Music isn't any better if it's recorded with a DAW than with a mixer and tape deck. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#20
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 6 Jul 2014 09:11:40 -0400 "Scott Dorsey" wrote in
article In article , Trevor wrote: Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little problem putting them in the box now. That makes the noise issues even worse! Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields AND electrical fields all over. Take a look inside one of the newer Allen and Heath cheapies and look at some of the extreme measures they've had to go through to keep switcher noise under control. It's beautiful work. --scott +1 The tiny, Verizon-branded phone charger in my car completely obliterates FM reception when it's charging the phone. That takes some doing! I presume it's a switcher - the clunky old one didn't behave like that. For fun, I took the charger inside and hooked it to to a battery; I can hear a raucous buzz on every ham band from 1.8 through 50 MHz. Winding half a dozen turns of the wire around a split ferrite core pretty much killed the noise. It makes me wonder if there are any EMC compliance standards for these things. Switching supplies make a lot of sense but without care a lot of noise, too. A new culprit: PV panels with integrated inverters. It's a good idea to boost the voltage right at the panel to reduce losses, but panels on the roof are probably pretty good antennas. (I can hear one such installation on a house a quarter of a mile from mine. I've been working with the owner to figure out how to mitigate the issue. Fortunately, he's receptive because he was "hearing something strange" on radios in his house.) |
#21
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compact mixer of decent quality
On Sun, 6 Jul 2014 22:56:02 -0400, Jason
wrote: On 6 Jul 2014 09:11:40 -0400 "Scott Dorsey" wrote in article In article , Trevor wrote: Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little problem putting them in the box now. That makes the noise issues even worse! Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields AND electrical fields all over. Take a look inside one of the newer Allen and Heath cheapies and look at some of the extreme measures they've had to go through to keep switcher noise under control. It's beautiful work. --scott +1 The tiny, Verizon-branded phone charger in my car completely obliterates FM reception when it's charging the phone. That takes some doing! I presume it's a switcher - the clunky old one didn't behave like that. For fun, I took the charger inside and hooked it to to a battery; I can hear a raucous buzz on every ham band from 1.8 through 50 MHz. Winding half a dozen turns of the wire around a split ferrite core pretty much killed the noise. It makes me wonder if there are any EMC compliance standards for these things. Switching supplies make a lot of sense but without care a lot of noise, too. A new culprit: PV panels with integrated inverters. It's a good idea to boost the voltage right at the panel to reduce losses, but panels on the roof are probably pretty good antennas. (I can hear one such installation on a house a quarter of a mile from mine. I've been working with the owner to figure out how to mitigate the issue. Fortunately, he's receptive because he was "hearing something strange" on radios in his house.) Yes the FCC lay down compliance standards and to meet them you need a combination of good design and added suppression components. I've recently put a switch mode psu into production that meets the limits, and is regularly verified by a very discerning customer. On the other side, I have bough - and returned - a PC power supply that carried the FCC marking, but had clearly subsequently been stripped of all the protection components, presumably in a fraudulent attempt to cut the cost. d |
#22
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/6/2014 10:56 PM, Jason wrote:
The tiny, Verizon-branded phone charger in my car completely obliterates FM reception when it's charging the phone. That takes some doing! I presume it's a switcher - the clunky old one didn't behave like that. For fun, I took the charger inside and hooked it to to a battery; I can hear a raucous buzz on every ham band from 1.8 through 50 MHz. Winding half a dozen turns of the wire around a split ferrite core pretty much killed the noise. It makes me wonder if there are any EMC compliance standards for these things. FCC approval mostly is about interfering with over-the-air television interference. You should be able to watch TV in the living room when your phone is charging in the bedroom. They check radiation from the device itself and also EMI going out to the AC power line through the plug so it won't radiate all over the house. The CE certification is more inclusive and testing is more stringent, but for consumer devices, it's not that it won't interfere under any condition, it's like there are some reasonable conditions under which it can be used without interference. One important reason why wall warts are so common is that the wall wart company can get all the approvals and then none of the device manufacturers need to get those approvals if they use the approved wall wart for power. Of course the whole device needs to be tested for EMI compliance in order to approval, but knowing that the power supply part is OK makes that easier. I use a transformer wall wart to test susceptibility to induced AC hum, and use my cell phone to test for RFI susceptibility. Handy on-topic tip: Don't leave your cell phone on top of your mixer. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#23
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compact mixer of decent quality
Don Pearce wrote:
Yes the FCC lay down compliance standards and to meet them you need a combination of good design and added suppression components. I've recently put a switch mode psu into production that meets the limits, and is regularly verified by a very discerning customer. And if I you walk through Wal-Mart with an EMI receiver you'll find that almost nothing sold today actually meets the Part 15 requirements when in actual use. On the other side, I have bough - and returned - a PC power supply that carried the FCC marking, but had clearly subsequently been stripped of all the protection components, presumably in a fraudulent attempt to cut the cost. I found at work a very, very noisy PC, that was at least 20dB above the Type B limits. I called the manufacturer, explained the problem, and they offered to send me an FCC compliance sticker that I could put on the back. As if, somehow, putting the sticker on fixed everything. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#24
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/7/2014 6:52 AM, Mike Rivers (that's me!) wrote:
FCC approval mostly is about interfering with over-the-air television interference. Of course, I meant off-the-air television reception, not interference, though sometimes the interference is more interesting to watch than the TV program. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#25
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compact mixer of decent quality
a small external power supply can be a good thing. get a spare power supply and throw it into the emergency case.. how do you recover in the field from a failed mixer power supply if the power supply is internal to the mixer. Mark |
#27
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compact mixer of decent quality
Mike,
Are you saying you carry a spare internal power supply and swap it out in the field? Mark |
#28
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/7/2014 10:37 PM, wrote:
Are you saying you carry a spare internal power supply and swap it out in the field? I could if that seemed to be the best alternative. But if this was a mission critical job and the mixer was small, I might take a whole spare mixer. If it was a large mixer, I'd look for one with a redundant power supply. You don't have to own this stuff, you can rent it, but you need to figure out what makes the most sense on a job-to-job basis. Understand that I come from an time when these things weren't cheap as dirt. It was important to be able to fix things when they break, even in the field. At a festival in El Paso about 25 years ago, we were setting up for a broadcast feed when we discovered that the Soundcraft 200 mixer was dead. The problem was with the power supply. This one had an external power supply (and, no, we didn't have a spare with us) so opening it up to see what was wrong - it could have been as simple as an internal fuse - didn't require removing as many screws as, say, a Mackie. I didn't have a schematic, and this was pre-Internet so I couldn't just download one, but I did have a multimeter, a soldering iron, and some hand tools. I was able to repair it right there on the edge of the stage at Chamizal Memorial Park and had it up and running in time for the show. You may ask "what if it went out during the show?" or "Supposed you couldn't fix it?" Well, that's probably when we would have figured out how we could make do with a different mixer and borrow it from one of the daytime PA systems. You don't stand there with a beer in your hand saying you'll never buy another piece of gear from this company again. I don't plan that there will be failures, though, because I don't start off with (or keep) equipment with questionable reliability or something that I can't fix. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#29
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 08/07/2014 12:05, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 7/7/2014 10:37 PM, wrote: Are you saying you carry a spare internal power supply and swap it out in the field? I could if that seemed to be the best alternative. But if this was a mission critical job and the mixer was small, I might take a whole spare mixer. If it was a large mixer, I'd look for one with a redundant power supply. You don't have to own this stuff, you can rent it, but you need to figure out what makes the most sense on a job-to-job basis. Understand that I come from an time when these things weren't cheap as dirt. It was important to be able to fix things when they break, even in the field. At a festival in El Paso about 25 years ago, we were setting up for a broadcast feed when we discovered that the Soundcraft 200 mixer was dead. The problem was with the power supply. This one had an external power supply (and, no, we didn't have a spare with us) so opening it up to see what was wrong - it could have been as simple as an internal fuse - didn't require removing as many screws as, say, a Mackie. I didn't have a schematic, and this was pre-Internet so I couldn't just download one, but I did have a multimeter, a soldering iron, and some hand tools. I was able to repair it right there on the edge of the stage at Chamizal Memorial Park and had it up and running in time for the show. Nice work. You may ask "what if it went out during the show?" or "Supposed you couldn't fix it?" Well, that's probably when we would have figured out how we could make do with a different mixer and borrow it from one of the daytime PA systems. You don't stand there with a beer in your hand saying you'll never buy another piece of gear from this company again. Because there are *lots* of people ready to lynch you... ;-) I don't plan that there will be failures, though, because I don't start off with (or keep) equipment with questionable reliability or something that I can't fix. My experience with wall wart supplies is that nine times out of ten, it's failed where the wire goes into the plug or comes out of the wart. This happens rather more often than a kettle or figure of eight connector fails when the gear has an internal power supply. At least the wall warts are small enough to carry a spare at all times. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#30
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compact mixer of decent quality
At least the
wall warts are small enough to carry a spare at all times. yes, that was my point, wall wart powered mixers may have some disadvantages, but the ease of carrying and changing to a backup power supply in the field could be considered an advantage. At the higher pro level you would have a complete backup desk in the other truck. Mark |
#31
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compact mixer of decent quality
wrote:
Mike, Are you saying you carry a spare internal power supply and swap it out in the field? With a remote truck where you have plenty of room for spares and usually a staff member along to swap things out, it's not all that unusual to do. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#32
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/8/2014 8:41 AM, John Williamson wrote:
My experience with wall wart supplies is that nine times out of ten, it's failed where the wire goes into the plug or comes out of the wart. I've found that to be the case, too. This can be repaired with a knife or hacksaw (to open the case) and a soldering iron, but it would be an "emergency" field repair. At least the wall warts are small enough to carry a spare at all times. But you have to plan ahead for that. I don't know why there are so many different wall warts and connector sizes, but it seems that people here are constantly looking for one that matches the specs on the device they need to power (usually it's because they "lost" the wall wart, rather than it failed) and can't find the right combination of voltage and current. Since the old ones weren't regulated, a 9v supply, depending on its current rating, might put out anywhere from 10 to 15 volts open circuit and depend on having the right amount of current drawn from them to get the terminal voltage into tolerance. So you can't always safelly use a 2A wall wart on a device that calls for 500 mA. But you could replace it with a new switching wall wart of the right voltage and sufficient current capacity since they're well regulated and, as a benefit, have much less ripple than one filtered only by a resistor and capacitor. But the tradeoff is a different radiated EMI spectrum. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#33
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compact mixer of decent quality
On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 5:05:45 AM UTC-6, Mike Rivers wrote:
I don't plan that there will be failures, though, because I don't start off with (or keep) equipment with questionable reliability or something that I can't fix. *All* equipment has questionable reliability. Especially at an outdoor festival. Especially on Sunday. Especially when it's over 24 hours' drive from the house. For every festival I worked, I always threw an E-V Entertainer in the back of the trailer as a backup. Saved my ass more than once. Peace, Paul |
#34
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/07/2014 5:37 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 7/6/2014 9:11 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: That makes the noise issues even worse! Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields AND electrical fields all over. As I say too often, improved technology doesn't always make things better, but it always changes how we make things (including making things with things that employ the new technology). Music isn't any better if it's recorded with a DAW than with a mixer and tape deck. Current state-of-the-folklore seems to be that music must be better if it's recorded on tape. And played on vinyl .... geoff |
#35
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compact mixer of decent quality
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... In article , Trevor wrote: Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little problem putting them in the box now. That makes the noise issues even worse! Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields AND electrical fields all over. Take a look inside one of the newer Allen and Heath cheapies and look at some of the extreme measures they've had to go through to keep switcher noise under control. It's beautiful work. And you don't see a contadiction there, or is the Allen and Heath still "spewing high frequency magnetic fields AND electrical fields all over."? Or is it simply a design problem engineers already know how to overcome? And do you really need to mix audio signals in the frequency range the switch mode PS operates? It is well above the audio region for a purpose after all, it's easily filtered out. More easily than 50/60Hz transformers! Trevor. |
#36
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compact mixer of decent quality
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... As I say too often, improved technology doesn't always make things better, but it always changes how we make things (including making things with things that employ the new technology). Music isn't any better if it's recorded with a DAW than with a mixer and tape deck. The music going in may not be better, but the audio quality coming out can be! Trevor |
#37
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compact mixer of decent quality
"geoff" wrote in message ... Current state-of-the-folklore seems to be that music must be better if it's recorded on tape. And played on vinyl .... No, you need to record direct to Edison cylinder surely? Trevor. |
#38
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compact mixer of decent quality
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... On 7/7/2014 6:52 AM, Mike Rivers (that's me!) wrote: FCC approval mostly is about interfering with over-the-air television interference. Of course, I meant off-the-air television reception, not interference, though sometimes the interference is more interesting to watch than the TV program. I've never seen that with digital TV (all we have here now) it's always worse when the picture pixelates and the sound drops in and out. :-( Trevor. |
#39
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compact mixer of decent quality
wrote in message ... a small external power supply can be a good thing. get a spare power supply and throw it into the emergency case.. how do you recover in the field from a failed mixer power supply if the power supply is internal to the mixer. Isn't that what the spare mixer is for? Trevor. |
#40
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compact mixer of decent quality
On 7/9/2014 2:57 AM, Trevor wrote:
The music going in may not be better, but the audio quality coming out can be! So who cares? Probably the people who don't actually listen to the music. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
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