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Nate Najar Nate Najar is offline
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Default compact mixer of decent quality

For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. They're practically free and they sound like it but I've had it for years and I do so few gigs where I need to provide my own PA that I don't bother to replace it. However every time I do use it I think to myself that I need to replace it. The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons.

Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed directly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality that is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're terrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's about it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway decent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint.

The allen and heath zed series seems to have the right size and features (and a built in power supply thankfully) but they seem geared to the home recordist and I'm wondering about reliability versus something like the too-large-footprint mixwiz. Who else even makes a compact mixer? Are the little mackies any good? i haven't used one since I had an original 1202 when they first came out in the mid nineties and I was a teenager so I have no idea how bad it may or may not have sounded.

lets say under $1000 give or take for 4-8 mic channels. I don't need built in effects or multiple foldback sends. compact, good sound and a built in power supply are the name of the game.

I look forward to your recommendations. As usual, thanks for the discussion.
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 7/3/2014 7:18 PM, Nate Najar wrote:
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer.
. . . . . The preamps have absolutely no
headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a
box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate
external power supplies for a few reasons.


I agree with you about the external power supply, but I don't understand
why you're having the headroom problem. Are you using the line out from
the bass amp into a DI, and into the mic preamp? If you're setting the
preamp gain so that it doesn't clip, you should be able to get the bass
up to a reasonable level in the mix, unless you need to turn down
everything else, and raise the gain on your power amp. Do the meters
jive? If you set the preamp gain (trim) so that when you solo the
channel pre-fader, you see the meters running between 0 and +10 VU and
then set the channel fader and master fader to its design center ("unity
gain" which may not actually be unity), do you see the master (mix)
level peaking somewhere a bit lower than the soloed channel level?

i would get an allen and heath
mix wiz- I think they're terrific for the price, but even the small
one is much too large a mixer for what i need. i usually only run 4
channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's about it. It's usually just a
talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass DI. Sometimes I need
additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway decent mic
channels. And I need a compact footprint.


The smallest Mix Wizard has 8 mic inputs. Is that too much?

The allen and heath zed series seems to have the right size and
features (and a built in power supply thankfully) but they seem
geared to the home recordist and I'm wondering about reliability
versus something like the too-large-footprint mixwiz.


I don't know for sure, but my inclination is that for two lines that are
pretty similar, they use as much of the same parts and circuitry as they
can. That saves a lot of money over making two completely different
products that aren't really that different. But I suspect that they sell
more Mimx Wizards than they do Zeds because everybody needs a mixer for
live sound but more and more people are trying to record without one.

Are the little mackies any good? i haven't
used one since I had an original 1202


The VLZ3 was fine and now they have a VLZ4 which is pretty much the same
but uses different ICs. The new ones are quieter than the old ones and
with the VLZ3, they finally got the internal gain structure right
without compromising the signal-to-noise ratio, which was the problem
pre-VLZ3.



--
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default compact mixer of decent quality

Nate Najar wrote:

Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed di=
rectly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality t=
hat is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're te=
rrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for =
what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's ab=
out it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass=
DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway d=
ecent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint.


Considered a field production mixer? They aren't really designed for the
job but they are small and light.

I assume the Sonosax and Cooper stuff is beyond your budget but try a
Shure FP32 or one of the Sound Devices field mixers.

But to be honest... what's wrong with the Yamaha you're using now?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Default compact mixer of decent quality

Nate Najar wrote:
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer.
They're practically free and they sound like it but I've had it for
years and I do so few gigs where I need to provide my own PA that I
don't bother to replace it. However every time I do use it I think
to myself that I need to replace it. The preamps have absolutely no
headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a
box and then I have to crank the channel gain.


That's not headroom - that's gain staging. Make an H pad. Google H pad;
people have calculators and everything.

And I really hate
external power supplies for a few reasons.


Yeah.

Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and
marketed directly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find
something of quality that is compact. i would get an allen and heath
mix wiz- I think they're terrific for the price, but even the small
one is much too large a mixer for what i need.


So how about the smaller ZED models? Say a ZED 10? 14?

i usually only run 4
channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's about it. It's usually just a
talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass DI. Sometimes I need
additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway decent mic
channels. And I need a compact footprint.

The allen and heath zed series seems to have the right size and
features (and a built in power supply thankfully) but they seem
geared to the home recordist and I'm wondering about reliability
versus something like the too-large-footprint mixwiz.


They're pretty reliable, and I'd say they're pointed at either live use
or recording ( although it's not really enough inputs for that ).

Band I played with last year used a ZED 10. It sounded fine. The rooms
were bad, but the mixer showed no sign of being unuseable.

Who else even
makes a compact mixer? Are the little mackies any good? i haven't
used one since I had an original 1202 when they first came out in the
mid nineties and I was a teenager so I have no idea how bad it may or
may not have sounded.


They are okay if you take it easy on 'em. Scott's written at length here
about features like gain controls in the feedback paths of opamps which
makes it not only a gain control but a tone control...

lets say under $1000 give or take for 4-8 mic channels. I don't need
built in effects or multiple foldback sends. compact, good sound and
a built in power supply are the name of the game.

I look forward to your recommendations. As usual, thanks for the
discussion.


I really suspect the ZED 10 is what you are looking for. If you need
room to grow, there's the ZED 14.

That is what I would get; a ZED 14.


Fabienne: Whose motorcycle is this?
Butch: It's a chopper, baby.
Fabienne: Whose chopper is this?
Butch: It's Zed's.
Fabienne: Who's Zed?
Butch: Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead.



N


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Nate Najar Nate Najar is offline
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Default compact mixer of decent quality

thanks everyone!

with the yamaha, I take the balanced, xlr line out from the bass amp and with the gain on the preamp all the way down, the little red channel led lights up on transients and it spends a pop to my speakers- not good. So I instead take the signal from the unbalanced line out through a DI and pad it (15db is my option) and then I have to crank the gain and the channel fader to get decent level. It isn't the end of the world, but when I have to setup and operate everything myself, one less step (in this case the DI) is helpful.

The big reason to replace the yamaha is that the external line lump scares the hell out of me. I want to get something with an internal supply that takes an IEC cable. If I'm going to get something new, I want something good. I don't buy crap anymore which is why I have schoeps mics and prism converters now but I also rarely buy anything because I don't want to spend money on crap. When I need more mics I borrow or hire them.

Les, your comment about the ZED makes me feel better. I looked at it and features and size are fine. If it will perform satisfactorily, that is what I care about. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the mixwiz that Mike mentioned except that I want something with a smaller footprint.

Scott, I looked at the sonosax the other day- it's almost perfect but it is beyond the budget especially considering the types of gigs I do where I would need my own rig.

thanks again for taking the time!

N


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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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On 04-07-2014 00:18, Nate Najar wrote:

For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. They're practically free and they sound like it but I've had it for years and I do so few gigs where I need to provide my own PA that I don't bother to replace it. However every time I do use it I think to myself that I need to replace it. The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons.


Soundcraft EPM or EFX.

I look forward to your recommendations. As usual, thanks for the discussion.


Just my USD 0.02

N


Kind regards

Peter Larsen




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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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Default compact mixer of decent quality

Nate -

I have a Yamaha MG102C that is practically brand new

http://www.swee****er.com/store/deta...FUEF7AodPUAADA

There are four XLR phantom powered inputs plus some phono and/or RCA line
inputs, compression, EQ, panning. I think about $100 would do it.

Gary Eickmeier


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Joe Kotroczo Joe Kotroczo is offline
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On 04/07/2014 03:33, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:

Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed di=
rectly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality t=
hat is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're te=
rrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for =
what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's ab=
out it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass=
DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway d=
ecent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint.


Considered a field production mixer? They aren't really designed for the
job but they are small and light.

I assume the Sonosax and Cooper stuff is beyond your budget but try a
Shure FP32 or one of the Sound Devices field mixers.


How much is a Cadac Live1? They do a 8 mic + 4 stereo line-in version
which fits in a 19" rack, don't they?

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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default compact mixer of decent quality

On 7/3/2014 11:09 PM, Nate Najar wrote:
with the yamaha, I take the balanced, xlr line out from the bass amp
and with the gain on the preamp all the way down, the little red
channel led lights up on transients and it spends a pop to my
speakers- not good.


If you're connecting the XLR line output from the amplifier to the XLR
mic input on the mixer, you'll have the same problem with just about any
mixer. You'd need to pad it down by 20 to 30 dB to avoid clipping the
input stage of the mixer, even with the mixer's input gain at minimum.

But, you know, I'll bet that the 1/4" hole in the XLR combo jacks on the
mic/line inputs on your MG mixer is set up like everyone else's - a 30
dB pad wired to the mic preamp input, maybe with a couple of capacitors
to keep phantom power off the line input. Why not try the amplifier's
XLR output directly into the line input through an adapter or an XLR-TRS
cable.

Another alternative is to use an XLR-1/4" adapter between the amplifier
line out and a DI box, and then connect the XLR out of the DI to the mic
input of the mixer. The XLR-1/4" adapter will unbalance the output of
the amplifier, so either use a simple adapter or a short piece of cable
if you're making one yourself. Don't use an adapter with a transformer.


So I instead take the signal from the unbalanced
line out through a DI and pad it (15db is my option) and then I have
to crank the gain and the channel fader to get decent level.


Assuming yours is a normal DI with a transformer or active circuit that
converts the line level input (1/4" jack) to mic level (XLR) there
should be no need to pad down the DI output, unless the amp has a
really, really hot line output.


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default compact mixer of decent quality

Nate Najar wrote:

with the yamaha, I take the balanced, xlr line out from the bass amp and wi=
th the gain on the preamp all the way down, the little red channel led ligh=
ts up on transients and it spends a pop to my speakers- not good.


1. The XLR input and the 1/4" input on that console are at diferent levels.
You can use an XLR to TRS cable and go into the 1/4" input that has lower
gain.

2. You can put an XLR barrel attenuator in the line. You should have a bag
of them lying around, they are amazingly useful for all kinds of things.


So I ins
tead take the signal from the unbalanced line out through a DI and pad it (=
15db is my option) and then I have to crank the gain and the channel fader =
to get decent level. It isn't the end of the world, but when I have to set=
up and operate everything myself, one less step (in this case the DI) is he=
lpful.


So what if you go into the DI without the pad?

The big reason to replace the yamaha is that the external line lump scares =
the hell out of me. I want to get something with an internal supply that t=
akes an IEC cable. If I'm going to get something new, I want something goo=
d. I don't buy crap anymore which is why I have schoeps mics and prism con=
verters now but I also rarely buy anything because I don't want to spend mo=
ney on crap. When I need more mics I borrow or hire them.


It's true that those things do fail a lot, although the advantage of them is
that they get the transformer physically away from the electronics which is
otherwise hard to do in a tiny little compact box.

Scott, I looked at the sonosax the other day- it's almost perfect but it is=
beyond the budget especially considering the types of gigs I do where I wo=
uld need my own rig.=20


The Sound Devices mixers are made for similar work but are less expensive
and more stripped down. But I think you'd be better off just buying some
pads and a spare line lump.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Nate Najar wrote:
thanks everyone!

with the yamaha, I take the balanced, xlr line out from the bass amp
and with the gain on the preamp all the way down, the little red
channel led lights up on transients and it spends a pop to my
speakers- not good. So I instead take the signal from the unbalanced
line out through a DI and pad it (15db is my option) and then I have
to crank the gain and the channel fader to get decent level. It
isn't the end of the world, but when I have to setup and operate
everything myself, one less step (in this case the DI) is helpful.


I still think you can make an H pad out of a mic cable ( and/or maybe
a Radio Shack project box ) and do this better. Since it's an artifact
of the bass amp, keep it with the bass amp.

Heck, you don't even have to build it - google for "Whirlwind IMP Pad -
20 dB " and "Whirlwind IMP Pad - 30 dB"

I have not used this product, but that's nearly certainly where I'd
start. My bass amps each have a pot for the output level so I don't
have this problem.

The big reason to replace the yamaha is that the external line lump
scares the hell out of me. I want to get something with an internal
supply that takes an IEC cable.



It shouldn't. Indeed a lump in the line is generally an easier thing to
replace. I realize it signals "cheap" but it's the right kind of cheap
- the maker gets to avoid the NRE of emissions and safety testing for
the internal power supply, plus is makes shipping and weight easier for
overseas-produced goods.

A lump in the line will probably also be easier to find.

The risk is the power input connector on the mixer.

snip
Les, your comment about the ZED makes me feel better. I looked at it
and features and size are fine. If it will perform satisfactorily,
that is what I care about. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the mixwiz
that Mike mentioned except that I want something with a smaller
footprint.


It's a pretty good little mixer, although I've never driven one.

I'd investigate the sound quality differences between the ZED and
MixWiz before deciding. The MixWiz is about 5 Franklins more.

I'd just do that before buying a Mackie or a Behringer. Mackies famously
have poor buss headroom and Behringers pop inputs.

Scott, I looked at the sonosax the other day- it's almost perfect but
it is beyond the budget especially considering the types of gigs I do
where I would need my own rig.

thanks again for taking the time!

N


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Sean Conolly Sean Conolly is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 7/3/2014 7:18 PM, Nate Najar wrote:
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer.
. . . . . The preamps have absolutely no
headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a
box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate
external power supplies for a few reasons.


I agree with you about the external power supply, but I don't understand
why you're having the headroom problem. Are you using the line out from
the bass amp into a DI, and into the mic preamp? If you're setting the
preamp gain so that it doesn't clip, you should be able to get the bass up
to a reasonable level in the mix, unless you need to turn down everything
else, and raise the gain on your power amp. Do the meters jive? If you set
the preamp gain (trim) so that when you solo the channel pre-fader, you
see the meters running between 0 and +10 VU and then set the channel fader
and master fader to its design center ("unity gain" which may not actually
be unity), do you see the master (mix) level peaking somewhere a bit lower
than the soloed channel level?


I've had exactly the same experience on every MG series board I've used
which has been several now. There just isn't enough headroom. Turn the
preamps down all the way and they still clip audibly with a strong singer or
horns, forget about drums.


The VLZ3 was fine and now they have a VLZ4 which is pretty much the same
but uses different ICs. The new ones are quieter than the old ones and
with the VLZ3, they finally got the internal gain structure right without
compromising the signal-to-noise ratio, which was the problem pre-VLZ3.



+1 on the VLZ3. Other than the well know problem with the ribbon cables they
are reliable and cheap used. For a new mixer I'd get the ZED, but for
something that didn't get used much I'd pick up a used 1202 VLZ3.

Sean


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DanielleOM DanielleOM is offline
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On 7/3/2014 7:18 PM, Nate Najar wrote:
For my little portable PA I've been using an little yamaha MG mixer. They're practically free and they sound like it but I've had it for years and I do so few gigs where I need to provide my own PA that I don't bother to replace it. However every time I do use it I think to myself that I need to replace it. The preamps have absolutely no headroom. I have to pad down the line out from the bass amp with a box and then I have to crank the channel gain. And I really hate external power supplies for a few reasons.

Since everything is mass produced in China to a price point and marketed directly to weekend warriors, I don't know how to find something of quality that is compact. i would get an allen and heath mix wiz- I think they're terrific for the price, but even the small one is much too large a mixer for what i need. i usually only run 4 channels, sometimes 4 or 5 but that's about it. It's usually just a talk/vocal mic. guitar mic, guitar DI and bass DI. Sometimes I need additional inputs but basically I need 4-8 halfway decent mic channels. And I need a compact footprint.

The allen and heath zed series seems to have the right size and features (and a built in power supply thankfully) but they seem geared to the home recordist and I'm wondering about reliability versus something like the too-large-footprint mixwiz. Who else even makes a compact mixer? Are the little mackies any good? i haven't used one since I had an original 1202 when they first came out in the mid nineties and I was a teenager so I have no idea how bad it may or may not have sounded.

lets say under $1000 give or take for 4-8 mic channels. I don't need built in effects or multiple foldback sends. compact, good sound and a built in power supply are the name of the game.

I look forward to your recommendations. As usual, thanks for the discussion.

N



I see Yamaha has updated that MG series. I know the updated models now
show up on the Swee****er site. About 4 years ago I went mixer shopping
and tried one of those before buying and keeping a Soundcraft EFX8
mixer. I suspect the MG mixer I brought home at the time was defective
as it really was introducing substantial noise. I have been happy with
the EFX8. I used it a regular basis hosting an acoustic open mic and I
regularly got compliments regarding the sound. (I moved and no longer
host an open mic on a regular basis)

Soundcraft had some small ones (Notepad series), that I thought would be
nice for a small format, however they are discontinued, and they no
longer have anything that small. I think they show up on ebay at times.

I sometimes play out as a duo with a bass player in a small venue. I
have been keeping an eye out as well for a more compact solution. For
some events we don't bother with the mixer and each of us goes direct to
a powered monitor.

Do you need a mixer with effects? (e.g. reverb for vocal)

Sometimes I don't bother with a mixer and just use my powered JBL EONs.
For an upcoming gig, my vocal mic and guitar will go to one. Bass player
will use the other one. It's one of those situations where we really
need to minimize set up time. This has worked reasonable well for us,
but I do miss having reverb on the vocal. I use a Zoom G2.1u effects
pedal to get reverb on the guitar.


Danielle
















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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 7/5/2014 12:40 AM, Sean Conolly wrote:
I've had exactly the same experience on every MG series board I've used
which has been several now. There just isn't enough headroom. Turn the
preamps down all the way and they still clip audibly with a strong singer or
horns, forget about drums.


That really isn't "not enough headroom." Headroom is a system concept
that isn't device-specific. If you want to complain about the mixer
itself, complain about not having sufficient gain adjustment range at
the front end. But this is a design compromise on a simple mixer, and
it's the reason why many more expensive mixers have a built-in swithable
pad.

All it takes, as many have suggested here, is a pad for a loud source
and you'll have enough headroom. But that might not eve be necessary if
the line output is connected to a line input, not a mic input. One of
the things that I emphasize when I give talks about PA system basics is
that specific types of jacks aren't necessarily used for specific
purposes. An XLR output isn't always mic level (as is the case with
Nate's bass player's amplifier) so it's not correct to connect it to a
mic level input even though the connectors mate physically.


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Sean Conolly Sean Conolly is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 7/5/2014 12:40 AM, Sean Conolly wrote:
I've had exactly the same experience on every MG series board I've used
which has been several now. There just isn't enough headroom. Turn the
preamps down all the way and they still clip audibly with a strong singer
or
horns, forget about drums.


That really isn't "not enough headroom." Headroom is a system concept that
isn't device-specific. If you want to complain about the mixer itself,
complain about not having sufficient gain adjustment range at the front
end. But this is a design compromise on a simple mixer, and it's the
reason why many more expensive mixers have a built-in swithable pad.


Take a mic and an average singer into the MG, and you have to turn the trim
well down, if not entirely off, to keep it from clipping. In my book you
shouldn't need to pad an average singer and mic, which is the typical
application for a board like this - which doesn't have pads BTW.

That's what I call 'not enough headroom'.

Sean




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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 7/5/2014 4:38 PM, Sean Conolly wrote:
Take a mic and an average singer into the MG, and you have to turn the trim
well down, if not entirely off, to keep it from clipping. In my book you
shouldn't need to pad an average singer and mic, which is the typical
application for a board like this - which doesn't have pads BTW.


That's what I call 'not enough headroom'.


I understand what you mean, and it's an inconvenience, perhaps even a
problem the first time you discover it and you don't have a pad.

I call it having too much input sensitivity, but it's a problem that you
can do something about pretty easily. If you have a quiet singer and a
low output mic and can't turn the gain up as much as you want, that's a
real problem.


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Nate Najar wrote:
The big reason to replace the yamaha is that the external line lump scares
=
the hell out of me. I want to get something with an internal supply that
t=
akes an IEC cable. If I'm going to get something new, I want something
goo=
d. I don't buy crap anymore which is why I have schoeps mics and prism
con=
verters now but I also rarely buy anything because I don't want to spend
mo=
ney on crap. When I need more mics I borrow or hire them.


It's true that those things do fail a lot, although the advantage of them
is
that they get the transformer physically away from the electronics which
is
otherwise hard to do in a tiny little compact box.


Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the
transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little
problem putting them in the box now.

Trevor.


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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In article , Trevor wrote:

Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the
transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little
problem putting them in the box now.


That makes the noise issues even worse!
Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet
electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields
AND electrical fields all over.

Take a look inside one of the newer Allen and Heath cheapies and look at
some of the extreme measures they've had to go through to keep switcher noise
under control. It's beautiful work.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 7/6/2014 9:11 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
That makes the noise issues even worse!
Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet
electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields
AND electrical fields all over.


As I say too often, improved technology doesn't always make things
better, but it always changes how we make things (including making
things with things that employ the new technology). Music isn't any
better if it's recorded with a DAW than with a mixer and tape deck.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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jason jason is offline
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On 6 Jul 2014 09:11:40 -0400 "Scott Dorsey" wrote in
article

In article , Trevor wrote:

Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the
transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little
problem putting them in the box now.


That makes the noise issues even worse!
Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet
electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields
AND electrical fields all over.

Take a look inside one of the newer Allen and Heath cheapies and look at
some of the extreme measures they've had to go through to keep switcher noise
under control. It's beautiful work.
--scott


+1

The tiny, Verizon-branded phone charger in my car completely obliterates
FM reception when it's charging the phone. That takes some doing! I
presume it's a switcher - the clunky old one didn't behave like that.

For fun, I took the charger inside and hooked it to to a battery; I can
hear a raucous buzz on every ham band from 1.8 through 50 MHz. Winding
half a dozen turns of the wire around a split ferrite core pretty much
killed the noise. It makes me wonder if there are any EMC compliance
standards for these things.

Switching supplies make a lot of sense but without care a lot of noise,
too. A new culprit: PV panels with integrated inverters. It's a good idea
to boost the voltage right at the panel to reduce losses, but panels on
the roof are probably pretty good antennas. (I can hear one such
installation on a house a quarter of a mile from mine. I've been working
with the owner to figure out how to mitigate the issue. Fortunately, he's
receptive because he was "hearing something strange" on radios in his
house.)


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On Sun, 6 Jul 2014 22:56:02 -0400, Jason
wrote:

On 6 Jul 2014 09:11:40 -0400 "Scott Dorsey" wrote in
article

In article , Trevor wrote:

Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the
transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little
problem putting them in the box now.


That makes the noise issues even worse!
Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet
electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields
AND electrical fields all over.

Take a look inside one of the newer Allen and Heath cheapies and look at
some of the extreme measures they've had to go through to keep switcher noise
under control. It's beautiful work.
--scott


+1

The tiny, Verizon-branded phone charger in my car completely obliterates
FM reception when it's charging the phone. That takes some doing! I
presume it's a switcher - the clunky old one didn't behave like that.

For fun, I took the charger inside and hooked it to to a battery; I can
hear a raucous buzz on every ham band from 1.8 through 50 MHz. Winding
half a dozen turns of the wire around a split ferrite core pretty much
killed the noise. It makes me wonder if there are any EMC compliance
standards for these things.

Switching supplies make a lot of sense but without care a lot of noise,
too. A new culprit: PV panels with integrated inverters. It's a good idea
to boost the voltage right at the panel to reduce losses, but panels on
the roof are probably pretty good antennas. (I can hear one such
installation on a house a quarter of a mile from mine. I've been working
with the owner to figure out how to mitigate the issue. Fortunately, he's
receptive because he was "hearing something strange" on radios in his
house.)


Yes the FCC lay down compliance standards and to meet them you need a
combination of good design and added suppression components. I've
recently put a switch mode psu into production that meets the limits,
and is regularly verified by a very discerning customer.

On the other side, I have bough - and returned - a PC power supply
that carried the FCC marking, but had clearly subsequently been
stripped of all the protection components, presumably in a fraudulent
attempt to cut the cost.

d
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On 7/6/2014 10:56 PM, Jason wrote:
The tiny, Verizon-branded phone charger in my car completely obliterates
FM reception when it's charging the phone. That takes some doing! I
presume it's a switcher - the clunky old one didn't behave like that.


For fun, I took the charger inside and hooked it to to a battery; I can
hear a raucous buzz on every ham band from 1.8 through 50 MHz. Winding
half a dozen turns of the wire around a split ferrite core pretty much
killed the noise. It makes me wonder if there are any EMC compliance
standards for these things.


FCC approval mostly is about interfering with over-the-air television
interference. You should be able to watch TV in the living room when
your phone is charging in the bedroom. They check radiation from the
device itself and also EMI going out to the AC power line through the
plug so it won't radiate all over the house. The CE certification is
more inclusive and testing is more stringent, but for consumer devices,
it's not that it won't interfere under any condition, it's like there
are some reasonable conditions under which it can be used without
interference.


One important reason why wall warts are so common is that the wall wart
company can get all the approvals and then none of the device
manufacturers need to get those approvals if they use the approved wall
wart for power. Of course the whole device needs to be tested for EMI
compliance in order to approval, but knowing that the power supply part
is OK makes that easier.

I use a transformer wall wart to test susceptibility to induced AC hum,
and use my cell phone to test for RFI susceptibility. Handy on-topic
tip: Don't leave your cell phone on top of your mixer.




--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Don Pearce wrote:

Yes the FCC lay down compliance standards and to meet them you need a
combination of good design and added suppression components. I've
recently put a switch mode psu into production that meets the limits,
and is regularly verified by a very discerning customer.


And if I you walk through Wal-Mart with an EMI receiver you'll find that
almost nothing sold today actually meets the Part 15 requirements when
in actual use.

On the other side, I have bough - and returned - a PC power supply
that carried the FCC marking, but had clearly subsequently been
stripped of all the protection components, presumably in a fraudulent
attempt to cut the cost.


I found at work a very, very noisy PC, that was at least 20dB above the
Type B limits. I called the manufacturer, explained the problem, and they
offered to send me an FCC compliance sticker that I could put on the back.
As if, somehow, putting the sticker on fixed everything.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 7/7/2014 6:52 AM, Mike Rivers (that's me!) wrote:

FCC approval mostly is about interfering with over-the-air television
interference.


Of course, I meant off-the-air television reception, not interference,
though sometimes the interference is more interesting to watch than the
TV program.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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a small external power supply can be a good thing.

get a spare power supply and throw it into the emergency case..

how do you recover in the field from a failed mixer power supply if the power supply is internal to the mixer.

Mark




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Mike,
Are you saying you carry a spare internal power supply and swap it out in the field?
Mark
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On 7/7/2014 10:37 PM, wrote:

Are you saying you carry a spare internal power supply and swap it out in the field?


I could if that seemed to be the best alternative. But if this was a
mission critical job and the mixer was small, I might take a whole spare
mixer. If it was a large mixer, I'd look for one with a redundant power
supply. You don't have to own this stuff, you can rent it, but you need
to figure out what makes the most sense on a job-to-job basis.

Understand that I come from an time when these things weren't cheap as
dirt. It was important to be able to fix things when they break, even in
the field. At a festival in El Paso about 25 years ago, we were setting
up for a broadcast feed when we discovered that the Soundcraft 200 mixer
was dead. The problem was with the power supply. This one had an
external power supply (and, no, we didn't have a spare with us) so
opening it up to see what was wrong - it could have been as simple as an
internal fuse - didn't require removing as many screws as, say, a
Mackie. I didn't have a schematic, and this was pre-Internet so I
couldn't just download one, but I did have a multimeter, a soldering
iron, and some hand tools. I was able to repair it right there on the
edge of the stage at Chamizal Memorial Park and had it up and running in
time for the show.

You may ask "what if it went out during the show?" or "Supposed you
couldn't fix it?" Well, that's probably when we would have figured out
how we could make do with a different mixer and borrow it from one of
the daytime PA systems. You don't stand there with a beer in your hand
saying you'll never buy another piece of gear from this company again.

I don't plan that there will be failures, though, because I don't start
off with (or keep) equipment with questionable reliability or something
that I can't fix.



--
For a good time, visit
http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 08/07/2014 12:05, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 7/7/2014 10:37 PM, wrote:

Are you saying you carry a spare internal power supply and swap it
out in the field?


I could if that seemed to be the best alternative. But if this was a
mission critical job and the mixer was small, I might take a whole spare
mixer. If it was a large mixer, I'd look for one with a redundant power
supply. You don't have to own this stuff, you can rent it, but you need
to figure out what makes the most sense on a job-to-job basis.

Understand that I come from an time when these things weren't cheap as
dirt. It was important to be able to fix things when they break, even in
the field. At a festival in El Paso about 25 years ago, we were setting
up for a broadcast feed when we discovered that the Soundcraft 200 mixer
was dead. The problem was with the power supply. This one had an
external power supply (and, no, we didn't have a spare with us) so
opening it up to see what was wrong - it could have been as simple as an
internal fuse - didn't require removing as many screws as, say, a
Mackie. I didn't have a schematic, and this was pre-Internet so I
couldn't just download one, but I did have a multimeter, a soldering
iron, and some hand tools. I was able to repair it right there on the
edge of the stage at Chamizal Memorial Park and had it up and running in
time for the show.

Nice work.

You may ask "what if it went out during the show?" or "Supposed you
couldn't fix it?" Well, that's probably when we would have figured out
how we could make do with a different mixer and borrow it from one of
the daytime PA systems. You don't stand there with a beer in your hand
saying you'll never buy another piece of gear from this company again.

Because there are *lots* of people ready to lynch you... ;-)

I don't plan that there will be failures, though, because I don't start
off with (or keep) equipment with questionable reliability or something
that I can't fix.



My experience with wall wart supplies is that nine times out of ten,
it's failed where the wire goes into the plug or comes out of the wart.
This happens rather more often than a kettle or figure of eight
connector fails when the gear has an internal power supply. At least the
wall warts are small enough to carry a spare at all times.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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At least the

wall warts are small enough to carry a spare at all times.




yes, that was my point,

wall wart powered mixers may have some disadvantages,
but the ease of carrying and changing to a backup power supply in the field could be considered an advantage.


At the higher pro level you would have a complete backup desk in the other truck.

Mark




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wrote:
Mike,
Are you saying you carry a spare internal power supply and swap it out in the field?


With a remote truck where you have plenty of room for spares and usually a
staff member along to swap things out, it's not all that unusual to do.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 7/8/2014 8:41 AM, John Williamson wrote:
My experience with wall wart supplies is that nine times out of ten,
it's failed where the wire goes into the plug or comes out of the wart.


I've found that to be the case, too. This can be repaired with a knife
or hacksaw (to open the case) and a soldering iron, but it would be an
"emergency" field repair.

At least the
wall warts are small enough to carry a spare at all times.


But you have to plan ahead for that. I don't know why there are so many
different wall warts and connector sizes, but it seems that people here
are constantly looking for one that matches the specs on the device they
need to power (usually it's because they "lost" the wall wart, rather
than it failed) and can't find the right combination of voltage and current.

Since the old ones weren't regulated, a 9v supply, depending on its
current rating, might put out anywhere from 10 to 15 volts open circuit
and depend on having the right amount of current drawn from them to get
the terminal voltage into tolerance. So you can't always safelly use a
2A wall wart on a device that calls for 500 mA. But you could replace it
with a new switching wall wart of the right voltage and sufficient
current capacity since they're well regulated and, as a benefit, have
much less ripple than one filtered only by a resistor and capacitor. But
the tradeoff is a different radiated EMI spectrum.

--
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On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 5:05:45 AM UTC-6, Mike Rivers wrote:

I don't plan that there will be failures, though, because I don't start
off with (or keep) equipment with questionable reliability or something
that I can't fix.



*All* equipment has questionable reliability.

Especially at an outdoor festival.

Especially on Sunday.

Especially when it's over 24 hours' drive from the house.

For every festival I worked, I always threw an E-V Entertainer in the back of the trailer as a backup. Saved my ass more than once.

Peace,
Paul
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On 7/07/2014 5:37 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 7/6/2014 9:11 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
That makes the noise issues even worse!
Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet
electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields
AND electrical fields all over.


As I say too often, improved technology doesn't always make things
better, but it always changes how we make things (including making
things with things that employ the new technology). Music isn't any
better if it's recorded with a DAW than with a mixer and tape deck.



Current state-of-the-folklore seems to be that music must be better if
it's recorded on tape. And played on vinyl ....


geoff
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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor
wrote:
Most of the modern mixers with inbuilt supplies are switch mode, so the
transformer is small, light, and operates at high frequency, so little
problem putting them in the box now.


That makes the noise issues even worse!
Now instead of something spewing 60 Hz magnetic fields into your quiet
electronics you have something spewing high frequency magnetic fields
AND electrical fields all over.

Take a look inside one of the newer Allen and Heath cheapies and look at
some of the extreme measures they've had to go through to keep switcher
noise
under control. It's beautiful work.


And you don't see a contadiction there, or is the Allen and Heath still
"spewing high frequency magnetic fields
AND electrical fields all over."? Or is it simply a design problem engineers
already know how to overcome?
And do you really need to mix audio signals in the frequency range the
switch mode PS operates? It is well above the audio region for a purpose
after all, it's easily filtered out. More easily than 50/60Hz transformers!

Trevor.




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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
As I say too often, improved technology doesn't always make things better,
but it always changes how we make things (including making things with
things that employ the new technology). Music isn't any better if it's
recorded with a DAW than with a mixer and tape deck.


The music going in may not be better, but the audio quality coming out can
be!

Trevor


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"geoff" wrote in message
...
Current state-of-the-folklore seems to be that music must be better if
it's recorded on tape. And played on vinyl ....


No, you need to record direct to Edison cylinder surely?

Trevor.



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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 7/7/2014 6:52 AM, Mike Rivers (that's me!) wrote:
FCC approval mostly is about interfering with over-the-air television
interference.


Of course, I meant off-the-air television reception, not interference,
though sometimes the interference is more interesting to watch than the
TV program.


I've never seen that with digital TV (all we have here now) it's always
worse when the picture pixelates and the sound drops in and out. :-(

Trevor.


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wrote in message
...
a small external power supply can be a good thing.
get a spare power supply and throw it into the emergency case..
how do you recover in the field from a failed mixer power supply if the
power supply is internal to the mixer.


Isn't that what the spare mixer is for?

Trevor.


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On 7/9/2014 2:57 AM, Trevor wrote:
The music going in may not be better, but the audio quality coming out can
be!


So who cares? Probably the people who don't actually listen to the music.

--
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