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#81
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"Sean Conolly" wrote in message ... "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message news "hank alrich" wrote in message ... The Behringer DEQ2496 is a good learning tool, and a good tool period in experienced hands. Two channels of multi-band, parametric, dynamic, auto, etc., EQ in one box. Wow thanks Hank - this is serious. Their only critique was the reliability and support from the company. But it has an RTA! I already have a good calibration microphone from another unit that might work OK. There is no dedicated one for this unit anyway. Got to think long and hard on this one. Like I said - you'll find many ways to use it - it's like a swiss army knife. My only regret is that I don't have two, one for the live rack and one for the home rack. But they do suffer from overheating and shutting down on occasions, so try to leave some space around it in the rack. Sean Sean - and everyone - One more serious question. This device is a digital I/O DAC with processing. But I want to use it as a signal processor after the receiver and before the power amp. This in turn means that I need it to be able to handle the various gains of all program material I put into it. But both this one and the 6200 have level meters that I am supposed to use to set a fixed mid level, not too low and not too high, into and out of the device. Something there is that doesn't make sense. I need to be able to set the gain wherever I feel like it without worrying about the preamp circuits being overloaded. I just printed out the full manual, available online only, and hope that I find some answer to all this. Maybe it is not intended as a Hi Fi component, just as a recording console accessory. What am I missing here? Gary |
#82
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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On Thursday, May 15, 2014 11:47:40 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
But I want to use it as a signal processor after the receiver and before the power amp. This in turn means that I need it to be able to handle the various gains of all program material I put into it. Please get your terms straight; if you're feeding in program material at various levels, then "levels" is the right term, and "gain" isn't. A signal doesn't have gain; a circuit does. But both this one and the 6200 have level meters that I am supposed to use to set a fixed mid level, not too low and not too high, into and out of the device. Something there is that doesn't make sense. I need to be able to set the gain wherever I feel like it without worrying about the preamp circuits being overloaded. There is no active audio device where you can set either the gain or the signal's level "wherever I feel like it". Every piece of equipment, other than passive networks, has a window within which signal levels must fall for correct operation. If the signal level is too low, the device will add unwanted noise. If the signal level is too high, the device will distort. This is Audio 101 stuff. Go get yourself a copy of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and read up on gain staging. Peace, Paul PS You also wrote: Maybe it is not intended as a Hi Fi component, just as a recording console accessory. It's mostly intended for sound reinforcement systems, especially permanently-installed ones. What am I missing here? Like I said, go read the Yamaha Handbook. |
#83
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
... "Sean Conolly" wrote in message ... "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message news "hank alrich" wrote in message ... The Behringer DEQ2496 is a good learning tool, and a good tool period in experienced hands. Two channels of multi-band, parametric, dynamic, auto, etc., EQ in one box. Wow thanks Hank - this is serious. Their only critique was the reliability and support from the company. But it has an RTA! I already have a good calibration microphone from another unit that might work OK. There is no dedicated one for this unit anyway. Got to think long and hard on this one. Like I said - you'll find many ways to use it - it's like a swiss army knife. My only regret is that I don't have two, one for the live rack and one for the home rack. But they do suffer from overheating and shutting down on occasions, so try to leave some space around it in the rack. Sean Sean - and everyone - One more serious question. This device is a digital I/O DAC with processing. But I want to use it as a signal processor after the receiver and before the power amp. This in turn means that I need it to be able to handle the various gains of all program material I put into it. But both this one and the 6200 have level meters that I am supposed to use to set a fixed mid level, not too low and not too high, into and out of the device. Something there is that doesn't make sense. I need to be able to set the gain wherever I feel like it without worrying about the preamp circuits being overloaded. I just printed out the full manual, available online only, and hope that I find some answer to all this. Maybe it is not intended as a Hi Fi component, just as a recording console accessory. What am I missing here? The input level is line level plus some headroom, and the EQs and limiter each have a gain adjustment so you can adjust the final level quite a bit, albeit with a bit of fiddling. There's probably more than I can remember right now - all my stuff is line level so I just do the basic gain staging. And it's not just for recording, for live use I run mine as the final stage before a 2KW amp. Sean |
#84
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Sean Conolly" wrote in message ... "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message ... "Sean Conolly" wrote in message ... "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message news "hank alrich" wrote in message ... The Behringer DEQ2496 is a good learning tool, and a good tool period in experienced hands. Two channels of multi-band, parametric, dynamic, auto, etc., EQ in one box. Wow thanks Hank - this is serious. Their only critique was the reliability and support from the company. But it has an RTA! I already have a good calibration microphone from another unit that might work OK. There is no dedicated one for this unit anyway. Got to think long and hard on this one. Like I said - you'll find many ways to use it - it's like a swiss army knife. My only regret is that I don't have two, one for the live rack and one for the home rack. But they do suffer from overheating and shutting down on occasions, so try to leave some space around it in the rack. Sean Sean - and everyone - One more serious question. This device is a digital I/O DAC with processing. But I want to use it as a signal processor after the receiver and before the power amp. This in turn means that I need it to be able to handle the various gains of all program material I put into it. But both this one and the 6200 have level meters that I am supposed to use to set a fixed mid level, not too low and not too high, into and out of the device. Something there is that doesn't make sense. I need to be able to set the gain wherever I feel like it without worrying about the preamp circuits being overloaded. I just printed out the full manual, available online only, and hope that I find some answer to all this. Maybe it is not intended as a Hi Fi component, just as a recording console accessory. What am I missing here? The input level is line level plus some headroom, and the EQs and limiter each have a gain adjustment so you can adjust the final level quite a bit, albeit with a bit of fiddling. There's probably more than I can remember right now - all my stuff is line level so I just do the basic gain staging. And it's not just for recording, for live use I run mine as the final stage before a 2KW amp. Sean OK, so there must be enough headroom in it to drive a power amp to any level I desire. So I don't have to put it in a tape loop and set it to a certain level. Gary |
#85
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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PStamler wrote:
There is no active audio device where you can set either the gain or the signal's level "wherever I feel like it". Every piece of equipment, other than passive networks, has a window within which signal levels must fall for correct operation. If the signal level is too low, the device will add unwanted noise. If the signal level is too high, the device will distort. This is Audio 101 stuff. Go get yourself a copy of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and read up on gain staging. So I cannot use this equalizer in line after the receiver? But Behringer says I can. Here is their reply: "Hello Gary, I would recommend leaving the Input level control of the EQ at the 12 o'clock position. With that set, your volume from the receiver will be you normal volume control. From that point, the EQ will function precisely how you are requesting. --------------- Original Message --------------- From: Gary Eickmeier ] Sent: 5/16/2014 10:06 AM To: Subject: Behringer (MUSIC Group Support Case 00200534) "FBQ6200" [ ref:_00D90YvhK._50090MGZs4:ref ] Jeff - No, it doesn't help. If I may put the equalizer in line to the power amplifier, I need it to pass on any level I choose to listen at. But if the unit requires a certain single signal level, then it cannot be used after the receiver, because I will be changing the signal level all the time. If it can't be used in this way, please let me know. If it has to be in some signal processor loop, like a tape loop, let me know. The manual is not very good on the uses of the unit." Gary Eickmeier So there must be enough headroom in the 6200 to handle all of the settings I might need in the future. I will try it tomorrow, after I take another reading of my current frequency response. Will let you know just how it works. Gary |
#86
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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On Friday, May 16, 2014 8:17:26 PM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
So I cannot use this equalizer in line after the receiver? But Behringer says I can. Here is their reply: "Hello Gary, I would recommend leaving the Input level control of the EQ at the 12 o'clock position. With that set, your volume from the receiver will be you normal volume control. From that point, the EQ will function precisely how you are requesting. I didn't say you couldn't use it after the receiver; I said that you needed to set it in such a way that it wouldn't overload, and the tech from Behringer suggested a setting that would accomplish that, probably pretty close to unity gain. You're using it with consumer equipment, which means, to oversimplify, that the limiting stage will be the power amp. If you're using the preamp and not clipping the power amp now, you probably won't clip the power amp with the EQ in the chain either, unless you use crazy boost settings on the EQ -- which is a bad idea anyway. Peace, Paul |
#87
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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In article ,
Gary Eickmeier wrote: So I cannot use this equalizer in line after the receiver? It might introduce more noise when used like that. Better to use it before the pre-amp volume control so it receives a 'constant' level. If there is an insert point or even a tape loop. -- *War does not determine who is right - only who is left. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#88
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Gary, my understanding is that you've been doing your research for years. How
can you be ignorant of what equipment does, what its limitations are, and how it's connected? My late friend Bill Hamlin was an English major and an actor. He had no technical training whatever, yet he could rip a hi-fi system apart and put it back together without having to even glance at the instructions. I knew him for 35 years, and never once had to explain any of this to him. |
#89
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Freq Response Graph Paper
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... Gary, my understanding is that you've been doing your research for years. How can you be ignorant of what equipment does, what its limitations are, and how it's connected? William, I suspect you don't see the problem, or potential problem. Of course I will see what this particular piece does when I hook it up as I plan to, and as the Behringer people say that it can be, but there is still an interesting situation that I have not seen before. I have been doing audio systems for - let's see - 55 years since my first separates system as a teenager. Built the Heathkit amp, used preamp and other components. But my real education came with my film work, doing multiple track sync sound on Super 8 mag film with flatbed, three sync recorders, mixers - well, I don't need to explain myself to you over an insult. Here is the point in a nutshell. If it needs to be input at a constant level, then it makes no sense to put it after a volume control. If it needs to be used in a tape loop of some sort, then I would have no control over the sub out level. This thing seems to be designed as part of a live sound system for large rooms, DJs, etc, rather than a hi fi component as such. They seem to think that the main sound that will be going into it will be from microphones, hence all of their talk about feedback control at certain frequencies. My receiver has but one opportunity for a processor loop, which is sort of a tape loop for CDRs or other little recorders. But I can't press that button unless I want to UN-press my input select button, such as CD. When digital came out, with the HD video and all, I had to go to a receiver rather than my usual preamp/ power amp, which changed the whole game. So the design intent and amount of headroom and correct usage and running the signal up and down the range of acceptable input to the unit were my main questions, which this group should certainly be familiar with! I thought maybe this was something that most members used all the time, so just checking because I am big on design intent and not using something outside its range. Got a big video job right now, will install the thing when I get back and report back. Gary |
#90
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"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
... I have been doing audio systems for - let's see - 55 years since my first separates system as a teenager. Wow. A lot of people learn the essentials after only a few years. Yet you are, in many ways, a complete novice, without the ability to grasp even the most elementary audio concepts. It wouldn't take long to learn the basics, such as reading the Yamaha book that's been recommended to you so many times. Why do you refuse to educate yourself? Have you just given up on ever understanding the rudimentary basics of audio? Have you just decided that you'll never want to take the training wheels off? |
#91
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:
They seem to think that the main sound that will be going into it will be from microphones, hence all of their talk about feedback control at certain frequencies. It can be used with the intended measurement mic for acoustical analysis. It can be used on an auxiliary output feeding stage monitors, or on the master outputs, matrix outputs, anywhere one might stick an equalizer, because that's what it is. As such it is most often deployed following some sort of gain control, such as the controls for managing levels for those various functions. It's only mic input is for the measurement mic, is not a balanced input, and therefore, the DEQ2496 is not intended to receive typical microphone levels at its XLR inputs. It can be used very gently, with broad Q settings, and it can be used extremely precisely with very tight Q settings, and it can do both of those job simultaneously. It can be set to react only to signals above specified levels, and much more. There is a tremendous amount of information in the manual. I don't know how in this world one gets from the amount of experience you claim to have, to writing the sentence I have quoted above. William's point is cogent: to what have you been paying attention while supposedly gathering all that audio "experience"? Certainly some of the simplest fundamentals have escaped you completely, while you claim to be advancing the science of music reproduction. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#92
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None wrote:
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message ... I have been doing audio systems for - let's see - 55 years since my first separates system as a teenager. Wow. A lot of people learn the essentials after only a few years. Yet you are, in many ways, a complete novice, without the ability to grasp even the most elementary audio concepts. It wouldn't take long to learn the basics, such as reading the Yamaha book that's been recommended to you so many times. Why do you refuse to educate yourself? Have you just given up on ever understanding the rudimentary basics of audio? Have you just decided that you'll never want to take the training wheels off? He's too busy designing the successor to the unicycle to bother with unloading the training wheels. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#93
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In article ,
Gary Eickmeier wrote: PStamler wrote: There is no active audio device where you can set either the gain or the signal's level "wherever I feel like it". Every piece of equipment, other than passive networks, has a window within which signal levels must fall for correct operation. If the signal level is too low, the device will add unwanted noise. If the signal level is too high, the device will distort. This is Audio 101 stuff. Go get yourself a copy of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and read up on gain staging. So I cannot use this equalizer in line after the receiver? But Behringer says I can. Here is their reply: "Hello Gary, I would recommend leaving the Input level control of the EQ at the 12 o'clock position. With that set, your volume from the receiver will be you normal volume control. From that point, the EQ will function precisely how you are requesting. Define "receiver" as you are using it. If this is an all-in-one consumer box with both preamp and amplifier in the same unit, you'll need to tap in between the preamp output and the output amplifier input. Tape out-equalizer-tape monitor generally will accomplish this. Hank |
#94
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"Hank" wrote in message ... Define "receiver" as you are using it. If this is an all-in-one consumer box with both preamp and amplifier in the same unit, you'll need to tap in between the preamp output and the output amplifier input. Tape out-equalizer-tape monitor generally will accomplish this. Hank, I don't know how you could have as much audio experience as you claim and be so ignorant of a simple term such as "receiver.".... Just kidding, adding to the hilarity from Summerwerck and None. Mine is a Pioneer of some years back vintage, but it has most of the features of a modern receiver. As I said, I was forced to go the receiver route when video connection and Dolby decoding for film tracks and HD video pass through became necessary. Mine has amplifiers in it, but I don't use most of them. I go pre out to some Carver M 1.5 amplifiers and to the main speakers, and sub out to the Velodyne with its internal amplifier. However, the power amps are still available inside the receiver, and I take advantage of that in feeding my center channel from the center speaker feed out, and two extra surround speakers from the surround amp connection of the receiver. This all works just fine, but the Behringer is slightly strange to me in their description of how it is to be used. It has the subwoofer output but that would make no sense in a tape loop connection. But even if I didn't want the sub output on the Behringer, I am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an external processor because if I need to press that button on the receiver, I can't also press CD or Video or FM Tuner. And no, there is no mike input on the Behringer - they expect it to get the mike feed from the mixing board. Gary |
#95
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"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
news I don't know how you could have as much audio experience as you claim and be so ignorant of a simple term such as "receiver.".... am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an external processor because if I need to press that button on the receiver, I can't also press CD or Video or FM Tuner. So, despite your gibbering, you don't know how to work a receiver. It's as if you're begging to be mocked for your ignorance, yet again. You're having serious problems with rudimentary concepts like how to connect things together, and elementary gain staging. Maybe your bizarre concept that a signal has gain is part of the problem. As long as you pretend that you know what you're doing, you'll be a laughingstock. |
#96
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On 18/05/2014 13:49, None wrote:
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message news I don't know how you could have as much audio experience as you claim and be so ignorant of a simple term such as "receiver.".... am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an external processor because if I need to press that button on the receiver, I can't also press CD or Video or FM Tuner. So, despite your gibbering, you don't know how to work a receiver. It's as if you're begging to be mocked for your ignorance, yet again. You're having serious problems with rudimentary concepts like how to connect things together, and elementary gain staging. Maybe your bizarre concept that a signal has gain is part of the problem. As long as you pretend that you know what you're doing, you'll be a laughingstock. He's also confusing domestic gear with professional gear. A`professional setup would have the connections available to do what he wants, but would need setting up correctly, while the stuff he has doesn't, and comes almost ready set up from the maker, while conforming to very few standards. I've never had any trouble listening to the output of the tape loop on any system I've owned while recording any source. Possibly because they were all bought or built from scratch with that in mind. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#97
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"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message news
I am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an external processor because if I need to press that button on the receiver, I can't also press CD or Video or FM Tuner. Then it's not a "tape loop". There's no loop! The Tape Monitor switch was intended for three-head machines. * Throwing the switch let you hear either the source program, or the actual recording coming back from the deck. That's what made them so convenient for signal-processing equipment. * Are you aware there are true three-head DATs, that actually monitor off the tape? |
#98
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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John Williamson wrote:
I've never had any trouble listening to the output of the tape loop on any system I've owned while recording any source. Possibly because they were all bought or built from scratch with that in mind. You want to put the device in-between the preamplifier and the amplifier. If you do not have a break-in loop for that (and some receivers do), then you have a problem. The output of the tape loop is _before_ the preamp gain control, while the original poster wants a point to break in after the gain control. The tape loop is not where you want to be. If the receiver you have does not allow you to pull a signal out before the power amp stages, you'll have to do a little soldering and install connectors there. Plenty of old receivers did that so that people in the process of upgrading could use them with larger power amplifiers simply as a preamp, but the current range of home theatre receivers is designed to be as cheap as possible and may be omitting such handy features. My suggestion to the original poster is to ditch the receiver and go with seperates, and move the receiver to another system where you can watch movies. The system you want for movie soundtracks is totally different than the system you want for realistic stereo reproduction; the speaker and room arrangements are not the same and the requirements for the speakers are different. Attempts to use the same system for both film surround playback and stereo music playback result only in poor compromises of both. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#99
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... John Williamson wrote: I've never had any trouble listening to the output of the tape loop on any system I've owned while recording any source. Possibly because they were all bought or built from scratch with that in mind. You want to put the device in-between the preamplifier and the amplifier. If you do not have a break-in loop for that (and some receivers do), then you have a problem. The output of the tape loop is _before_ the preamp gain control, while the original poster wants a point to break in after the gain control. The tape loop is not where you want to be. If the receiver you have does not allow you to pull a signal out before the power amp stages, you'll have to do a little soldering and install connectors there. Plenty of old receivers did that so that people in the process of upgrading could use them with larger power amplifiers simply as a preamp, but the current range of home theatre receivers is designed to be as cheap as possible and may be omitting such handy features. My suggestion to the original poster is to ditch the receiver and go with seperates, and move the receiver to another system where you can watch movies. The system you want for movie soundtracks is totally different than the system you want for realistic stereo reproduction; the speaker and room arrangements are not the same and the requirements for the speakers are different. Attempts to use the same system for both film surround playback and stereo music playback result only in poor compromises of both. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Thanks for the first sensible answer Scott. I checked again, and my receiver just does not have an external processor loop available. There is a recorder connection with the usual Out and In jacks, but there is no way to select my source, such as CD, and also the tape loop. I think what they expect us to do with this design is that the selected signal is always available to the Tape Out jacks to record from, and then after recording is done you can play it back later by selecting the Tape source. But you CANNOT use it simultaneously with the CD button as a Source/Tape monitor as in the old days. I have my Carver preamp still available for LP sources, and it works a little differently. There is a rotary source selector for source such as CD, and also two tape loop switches that you can use to select Source or Tape. That is what I am used to and hoping that I could do with the new equalizer, but as is I'm afraid not. So why did I select a receiver rather than a separate digital signal peamp/processor? Because those things cost a fortune! At least when I was shopping for them. The receiver has been very convenient for a choice of using it as a preamp only, with separate power amps, and also being able to use its internal amps as a set of free power amps for additional speakers, but I hadn't run up against this particular problem before and was very surprised that I couldn't use it that way. So I will try it today as a line level but after the volume control processor between the preamp and power amp. If that works out OK, I will be happy enough, because I will also be able to use its mono Sub Out feature with crossover. Scott have you used products such as this Behringer in your studio work or some sound reinforcement or PA applicaitons? What I can picture as its main mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s) and speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate possible feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good description of the design intent? Thanks again, Gary |
#100
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... "Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message news I am having trouble picturing using the tape loop as an external processor because if I need to press that button on the receiver, I can't also press CD or Video or FM Tuner. Then it's not a "tape loop". There's no loop! The Tape Monitor switch was intended for three-head machines. * Throwing the switch let you hear either the source program, or the actual recording coming back from the deck. That's what made them so convenient for signal-processing equipment. Yes, I know William. That is the point of this whole discussion. Please see my response to Scott above. * Are you aware there are true three-head DATs, that actually monitor off the tape? I bypassed DAT in my little audio career. Was not doing recording at that time yet. I saw the Sony PCM F1 in action a couple of times, but have never experienced DAT. This leads to a discussion of modern digital recorders, which I had not been concerned about because they do not need a source/tape monitor function - do they? We record direct to the memory chip, and that's pretty much that. No need to check the source against the recording, because - well, I suppose because you have already checked out the ADC and DAC for accuracy and would not be using them for professional use if they weren't accurate. Nor could you read off the chip at the same time as you are recording onto it. I remember John Atkinson demoing the Sony PCM F1's accuracy at a hi fi show in England in around 1982. He would insert the recorder between the source (LP I think) and the playback system and switch between the two. But video recorders in those days I think had separate record and playback heads, so if there was no malfunction in the recording onto tape, all he was showing was the quality of the ADC/DAC throughput. There was no difference, by the way. Gary |
#101
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On Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:24:53 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
What I can picture as its main mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s) and speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate possible feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good description of the design intent? Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer. Peace, Paul |
#102
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Hank" wrote in message ... Define "receiver" as you are using it. If this is an all-in-one consumer box with both preamp and amplifier in the same unit, you'll need to tap in between the preamp output and the output amplifier input. Tape out-equalizer-tape monitor generally will accomplish this. Hank, I don't know how you could have as much audio experience as you claim and be so ignorant of a simple term such as "receiver.".... Just kidding, adding to the hilarity from Summerwerck and None. Know what's funny? Know how there is more than just one guy named "Gary"? It's like that for guys named "Hank", too. Reading€¦ -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#103
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"hank alrich" wrote in message ... Know what's funny? Know how there is more than just one guy named "Gary"? It's like that for guys named "Hank", too. I suspected as much, but I don't think I said anything that would confuse you with Other Hank. Gary |
#104
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Signal Flow (in another life was: Freq Response Graph Paper)
On 5/18/2014 10:02 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Plenty of old receivers did that so that people in the process of upgrading could use them with larger power amplifiers simply as a preamp, but the current range of home theatre receivers is designed to be as cheap as possible and may be omitting such handy features. Modern receivers don't have tape outputs and inputs because nobody has a recorder as part of their home listening system any more. Why record anything when you can just download it? Those who use a computer as a recorder and a record as the source are a special breed. If the project doesn't justify a purpose built phono preamp, a 20 year old stereo receiver from Goodwill or Craig's List will do the job nicely. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#105
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Freq Response Graph Paper
"PStamler" wrote in message
... On Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:24:53 AM UTC-6, Gary Eickmeier wrote: What I can picture as its main mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s) and speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate possible feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good description of the design intent? Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer. Yep. K.I.S.S. Sean |
#106
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Freq Response Graph Paper
"Sean Conolly" wrote in message ... "PStamler" wrote in message Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer. Yep. K.I.S.S. Sean Well, if someone is still reading, it works just fine in line after the preamp (receiver) and before the power amps. I finally obtained all of the adapters I would need to connect it up, and I was more than concerned at first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. It is now quiet as a mouse and works as advertised. At the loudest passages the input level meter cracks the -6 dB level, well below any concern that it would be overloaded by using it after the receiver. Of course I am still playing with it, but the sound is great, full, rich, dynamic and freq response is now controllable, tho I didn't seem to need much. It is really lovely having that subwoofer output with adjustable crossover and level, because now I can equalize the bass region as well. And the answer to the musical question about modern hi fi receivers is that there is no tape loop that can act as an external processor loop for equipment such as the 2496 parametric equalizer. The dumbest feature is that the power switch is on the back of the thing! Gary Eickmeier |
#107
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Freq Response Graph Paper
On 5/21/2014 8:38 PM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Sean Conolly" wrote in message ... "PStamler" wrote in message Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer. Yep. K.I.S.S. Sean Well, if someone is still reading, it works just fine in line after the preamp (receiver) and before the power amps. I finally obtained all of the adapters I would need to connect it up, and I was more than concerned at first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. It is now quiet as a mouse and works as advertised. At the loudest passages the input level meter cracks the -6 dB level, well below any concern that it would be overloaded by using it after the receiver. Of course I am still playing with it, but the sound is great, full, rich, dynamic and freq response is now controllable, tho I didn't seem to need much. It is really lovely having that subwoofer output with adjustable crossover and level, because now I can equalize the bass region as well. And the answer to the musical question about modern hi fi receivers is that there is no tape loop that can act as an external processor loop for equipment such as the 2496 parametric equalizer. The dumbest feature is that the power switch is on the back of the thing! Gary Eickmeier I'm confused. All my DEQ 2496's have the power switch on the front and don't have a subwoofer output. Are you maybe talking about the ultragraph pro 31 band graphic EQ? == Later... Ron Capik -- |
#108
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Freq Response Graph Paper
"Ron C" wrote in message ... I'm confused. All my DEQ 2496's have the power switch on the front and don't have a subwoofer output. Are you maybe talking about the ultragraph pro 31 band graphic EQ? == Later... Ron Capik Well, I just looked back briefly in the thread and I didn't make it clear that I got the 6200. I had already ordered it when I started this thread, not knowing about the 2496, but it turns out that I can't use the 2496 in my system because my receiver has no processor loop, which I would think a digital equalizer/analyzer signal processor would need. Gary |
#109
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Freq Response Graph Paper
On 5/22/2014 1:29 AM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Ron C" wrote in message ... I'm confused. All my DEQ 2496's have the power switch on the front and don't have a subwoofer output. Are you maybe talking about the ultragraph pro 31 band graphic EQ? == Later... Ron Capik Well, I just looked back briefly in the thread and I didn't make it clear that I got the 6200. I had already ordered it when I started this thread, not knowing about the 2496, but it turns out that I can't use the 2496 in my system because my receiver has no processor loop, which I would think a digital equalizer/analyzer signal processor would need. Gary Gary, You can use the 2496 the same way as the 6400, though you won't have a sub crossover/output. == Later... Ron Capik -- |
#110
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Freq Response Graph Paper
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Thanks for the first sensible answer Scott. I checked again, and my receiver just does not have an external processor loop available. There is a recorder connection with the usual Out and In jacks, but there is no way to select my source, such as CD, and also the tape loop. I think what they expect us to do with this design is that the selected signal is always available to the Tape Out jacks to record from, and then after recording is done you can play it back later by selecting the Tape source. But you CANNOT use it simultaneously with the CD button as a Source/Tape monitor as in the old days. I have my Carver preamp still available for LP sources, and it works a little differently. There is a rotary source selector for source such as CD, and also two tape loop switches that you can use to select Source or Tape. That is what I am used to and hoping that I could do with the new equalizer, but as is I'm afraid not. You really, really need to read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and get some notion of signal flow through PA systems and how these things are normally configured. Scott have you used products such as this Behringer in your studio work or some sound reinforcement or PA applicaitons? What I can picture as its main mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s) and speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate possible feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good description of the design intent? No, normally this device is used as a speaker processor, that is it comes in-between the main outputs of the PA console and the speaker systems. Something like this is used in every PA system in the world pretty much, although in a lot of cases you will find cruder devices like third-octave equalizers in use. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#111
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Freq Response Graph Paper
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Well, if someone is still reading, it works just fine in line after the preamp (receiver) and before the power amps. I finally obtained all of the adapters I would need to connect it up, and I was more than concerned at first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. It is now quiet as a mouse and works as advertised. At the loudest passages the input level meter cracks the -6 dB level, well below any concern that it would be overloaded by using it after the receiver. Suicide plugs are a very, very stupid idea. Fix the ground loop by properly configuring the signal wiring rather than using the suicide plug. Using a suicide plug on a job is the best way to get instantly fired in the pro audio world. In the pro audio world we live with differential inputs and differentially driven outputs so doing hazardous things is not necessary. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#112
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#113
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Freq Response Graph Paper
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"Ron C" wrote in message ... I'm confused. All my DEQ 2496's have the power switch on the front and don't have a subwoofer output. Are you maybe talking about the ultragraph pro 31 band graphic EQ? == Later... Ron Capik Well, I just looked back briefly in the thread and I didn't make it clear that I got the 6200. I had already ordered it when I started this thread, not knowing about the 2496, but it turns out that I can't use the 2496 in my system because my receiver has no processor loop, which I would think a digital equalizer/analyzer signal processor would need. Gary Put a DEQ 2496 in series with the output of the receiver. For what do you need a loop? Note as well that I doubt anyone here would have suggested the FBQ6200. It has nowhere near flexiblity equivalent to the DEQ2496. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#114
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Freq Response Graph Paper
Scott Dorsey wrote:
You really, really need to read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and get some notion of signal flow through PA systems and how these things are normally configured. I wonder how many times this will be told to Gary? -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#115
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Freq Response Graph Paper
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Gary Eickmeier wrote: Thanks for the first sensible answer Scott. I checked again, and my receiver just does not have an external processor loop available. There is a recorder connection with the usual Out and In jacks, but there is no way to select my source, such as CD, and also the tape loop. I think what they expect us to do with this design is that the selected signal is always available to the Tape Out jacks to record from, and then after recording is done you can play it back later by selecting the Tape source. But you CANNOT use it simultaneously with the CD button as a Source/Tape monitor as in the old days. I have my Carver preamp still available for LP sources, and it works a little differently. There is a rotary source selector for source such as CD, and also two tape loop switches that you can use to select Source or Tape. That is what I am used to and hoping that I could do with the new equalizer, but as is I'm afraid not. You really, really need to read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and get some notion of signal flow through PA systems and how these things are normally configured. Scott have you used products such as this Behringer in your studio work or some sound reinforcement or PA applicaitons? What I can picture as its main mission would be such as a small live band using it as an adjunct to their sound board, the mixer going out thru the Behringer and back in again for equalization and feedback detection before going out to the amplifier(s) and speakers. They adjust it for best sound in that room and eliminate possible feedback problems with the sliders as well. Would that be a good description of the design intent? No, normally this device is used as a speaker processor, that is it comes in-between the main outputs of the PA console and the speaker systems. Something like this is used in every PA system in the world pretty much, although in a lot of cases you will find cruder devices like third-octave equalizers in use. --scott OK, thanks for the advice. I would have to call an electrician in to check my house wiring, just to make sure. The facts are, my house was built in 1989 by a builder who was slightly incompetent and hired some of the cheapest subs. I believe that my wiring was done by his handyman and not an electrician, on the theory that everything would be inspected by the county anyway, so why waste money on electricians? Just do it according to code and save a buck. Well, I ordered the wiring for my control room to have four 20 amp lines. When I got there dor a first look at how it was going, I saw just two lines running from the box to my audio plugs. They just assumed no normal person needs anything more than that for a hi fi system. So I ordered them to run the other two, and make sure they were all 20 Amps. They did it, but who knows how competently. Half the light switches in the house were installed upside down, so that I had to press the bottom to turn it on, and vice versa. I was living in California and selling the old house during the first 3 months of building this one. Once upon a time I obtained a polarity checker and checked all of my plugs for which side was which to be able to orient the power cords from my (older) equipment the right way. Didn't keep records on it, but is that what you mean? Anyway, I should have it checked thoroughly to make sure the grounds are connected to earth. One more fact to throw in the bin, my sound system in htis house has always been quiet as a mouse. No hum, buzz, nothing. The Behringer being inserted between the receiver and power amps is the first time I have had any problems. Gary Eickmeier |
#116
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Freq Response Graph Paper
"Gary Eickmeier" writes:
snips OK, thanks for the advice. I would have to call an electrician in to check my house wiring, just to make sure. The facts are, my house was built in 1989 by a builder who was slightly incompetent and hired some of the cheapest subs. I believe that my wiring was done by his handyman and not an electrician, on the theory that everything would be inspected by the county anyway, so why waste money on electricians? Just do it according to code and save a buck. the other two, and make sure they were all 20 Amps. They did it, but who Hmm. Why 80 amps? Are those breakers all on the same bus bar? 3 months of building this one. Once upon a time I obtained a polarity checker and checked all of my plugs for which side was which to be able to orient the power cords from my (older) equipment the right way. Didn't keep Well, unless it's really old stuff, the polarized pin should get you right. If not polarized, then we hope there's a double insulated transformer in the device. records on it, but is that what you mean? Anyway, I should have it checked thoroughly to make sure the grounds are connected to earth. That, and leakage currents. One more fact to throw in the bin, my sound system in htis house has always been quiet as a mouse. No hum, buzz, nothing. The Behringer being inserted between the receiver and power amps is the first time I have had any problems. Well, could be that the new Behringer is at fault and putting a cheater on it simply means that you put a mask on the problem -- but something could still wrong with it internally. Uli has been in trouble before IIRC, including fake UL stickers. (Actually, might be the classic "pin 1" problem on the box.) What's the I/O? XLR? TRS? RCA? If XLR or TRS and you're coming from or going to unbalanced gear, what are you doing with the low side (Pin 3 on XLRs or ring on TRS plugs.) Finally, remember that Berhinger price-points mean that they cut a LOT of corners in design and parts quality. Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#117
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Freq Response Graph Paper
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
... "Sean Conolly" wrote in message ... "PStamler" wrote in message Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer. Yep. K.I.S.S. Sean ... and I was more than concerned at first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. As has been pointed out - this is never a good idea. A simple solution is to run everything off the same phase of power, which is easy to test by running everything from one outlet. And I do mean *everything* that is electrically connected by cables including your signal source. Sean |
#118
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Freq Response Graph Paper
Frank Stearns wrote:
"Gary Eickmeier" writes: Hmm. Why 80 amps? Are those breakers all on the same bus bar? I suppose so. 3 months of building this one. Once upon a time I obtained a polarity checker and checked all of my plugs for which side was which to be able to orient the power cords from my (older) equipment the right way. Didn't keep Well, unless it's really old stuff, the polarized pin should get you right. If not polarized, then we hope there's a double insulated transformer in the device. I have lots of equipment that doesn't have the polarized prongs on the plug. One more fact to throw in the bin, my sound system in htis house has always been quiet as a mouse. No hum, buzz, nothing. The Behringer being inserted between the receiver and power amps is the first time I have had any problems. Well, could be that the new Behringer is at fault and putting a cheater on it simply means that you put a mask on the problem -- but something could still wrong with it internally. Uli has been in trouble before IIRC, including fake UL stickers. (Actually, might be the classic "pin 1" problem on the box.) This Behringer is starting to annoy me. I just tested my response with the sub turned OFF, and I was getting full readings in the bass region from the main speakers. This means that the crossover is not working for me, preventing the lowest freqs from reaching the main speakers. I will now have to figure out a new way of doing it, probably with the receiver's crossover I also have the Richter. Or I could purchase some other accessory crossover. But why would they do this? Apparently the sub output of the Behringer is just another output for the subwoofer, but does not prevent the full range from going out to the main speakers. What's the I/O? XLR? TRS? RCA? If XLR or TRS and you're coming from or going to unbalanced gear, what are you doing with the low side (Pin 3 on XLRs or ring on TRS plugs.) One strange incident - the sub out has only the XLR output. The manual says to bridge pins 1 and 3, but my music center that sold me the adapter said that wasn't necessary because pin 1 is ground already. Finally, remember that Berhinger price-points mean that they cut a LOT of corners in design and parts quality. Frank Mobile Audio Yes, maybe so. Gary |
#119
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Freq Response Graph Paper
Sean Conolly wrote:
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message ... "Sean Conolly" wrote in message ... "PStamler" wrote in message Typically the Behringer would be used in a simpler way. The mixing board's output would feed the Behringer's input, then the Behringer's output would go directly to the power amps rather than back to the mixer. Yep. K.I.S.S. Sean ... and I was more than concerned at first with a hum and buzz that it was contributing to my system. The solution was a cheater plug to bypass the ground pin. As has been pointed out - this is never a good idea. A simple solution is to run everything off the same phase of power, which is easy to test by running everything from one outlet. And I do mean *everything* that is electrically connected by cables including your signal source. Yes, the Beri might be the problem, or it might be revealing a problem with the rest of the system. In short heh it's not worth getting electrocuted over. Get out the VOM and start looking for the "why?" behind it to make sure things are installed and conifured safely. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#120
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Freq Response Graph Paper
"hank alrich" wrote in message ... Put a DEQ 2496 in series with the output of the receiver. For what do you need a loop? I was just thinking that a digital I/O would need to ramain at a certain level, but the 6200 is doing fine on level, just not so fine on what it is supposed to be doing for me. Note as well that I doubt anyone here would have suggested the FBQ6200. It has nowhere near flexiblity equivalent to the DEQ2496. Might just take you up on that. I'm pretty sure I can return this thing to Parts Express. Gary |
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