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Marc Wielage[_2_] Marc Wielage[_2_] is offline
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On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 04:12:34 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

At least with respect to ambience, the
brain responds most strongly to lateral sound -- so the "rear" speakers
should actually be at the sides, and only slightly behind the listener. This
effected a big improvement.
------------------------------snip------------------------------


Yes, the Holman and Toole books I referred to you emphasize that surround
channels (at least for film) are usually done on the sides, not the rear.



The overwhelming majority of home systems have a Dialog speaker. Why should
the mixologists worry about whether the mix works correctly when there is no
Dialog speaker?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


The re-recording mixers are supposed to check *stereo* compatibility, either
doing a separate stereo mix or a stereo downmix that's programmed into the
DVD or the Blu-ray. The stereo mix is important, because a lot of cable
viewers are going to watch and hear the shows on TV sets without external
speakers -- and that means no center channel and no surround tracks. Those
all have to get folded down, and when that happens, unpredictable things can
occur.

--MFW

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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:


No. There weren't any. But all quadraphonic matrixing systems -- SQ,
QS, EV, etc -- require logic steering for good subjective separation,
even though they don't have center channels.


Actually, I have never seen an SQ or QS matrix system with steering.
The ones I saw all required pretty precise level setting to get good
separation and they all drifted a bit.


I've owned four SQ decoders. The Sony decoders used gain riding (rather than
cancellation), and produced extremely crude effects. The Audionics Space &
Image Composer was the first that worked without drawing too much attention
to itself. The Fosgate Tate II decoder (which I still have) had such rapid
logic action that you could turn sideways and the image remained stable.

I had two QS decoders, the Sansui QSD-1, then the QS-D1000. The first was a
multi-band unit, the latter single-band. QS wasn't very good for classical
music, because it required lateral separation enhancement (which SQ
doesn't). You could hear the orchestra image slightly widening and
narrowing. (I no longer have these, because I didn't have a lot of QS
recordings, and I needed money. They each sold for a large sum.)

The Fosgate is a-workin' still (classic MAD ad spoof), and is stable. The
only user adjustment is an input-balance control, and it's required the same
setting as long as I've owned my current pickup.


The first generation of Dolby Stereo had no steering, and really none of
the theatrical Dolby Stereo decoders have ever had analogue steering.


As far as I know, that isn't true. The earliest generation used a modified
QSD-1.

Steering isn't quite the right term. Fantasound used steering. Dolby Stereo
(and SQ and QS) used dynamic cancellation.


They just assumed everyone would do the A-chain alignment properly
enough that the separation would be good. Sometimes they did,
sometimes they didn't.


That's a different issue, of course.


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[email protected] 0junk4me@nomail.bellsloth.net is offline
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On 2012-01-04 said:
The re-recording mixers are supposed to check *stereo*
compatibility, either doing a separate stereo mix or a stereo
downmix that's programmed into the DVD or the Blu-ray. The stereo
mix is important, because a lot of cable viewers are going to watch
and hear the shows on TV sets without external speakers -- and that
means no center channel and no surround tracks. Those all have to
get folded down, and when that happens, unpredictable things can
occur.


Yep, and if they do often they do a **** poor job imho. AS
I said, Kathy's had her daughter's television in the house
recently, along with daughter's dvd collection. This thing
might be "stereo" but from across the room it's still
essentially a mono source to one's ears and a lot of these
have a very crappy stereo or mono mix for hearing and
understanding dialogue, but then the speakers in this thing
aren't designed to provide good audio in the first place,
all sorts of strange resonances from the cabinet of the box
itself, etc.

These folks should listen to those stereo mixes on average
televisions such as those found in motel rooms, or on our
bookshelf at the moment. That's where I mostly listen to
television and movie sound tracks, and they do a crappy job!



Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider


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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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On Dec 31 2011, 4:16*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:

What does "do not use a dialog speaker" mean? You have 4.1
with the center missing?


How stupid could I be, Scott?


No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is split
through left and right front.


Right, but what ratios is it splitting it to?

You're always going to have somewhat lower intelligibility when you
do this, compared with using a center channel. *But the ratio at which
you want to set the level depends on the mix itself, because you are
basically downmixing everything to a different presentation format.

Once the center channel is not physically separate in space, you lose some
ability to pick it out, so the appropriate relative dialogue levels are
not exactly the same. *And, the more cluttered the mix is, the more you
will need to punch the dialogue channel up.

Your dts decoder should have a bunch of menus that let you adjust downmix
parameters.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

___
It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this - movies are more
intelligible with a full(with center/dialogue spkr as our across the
pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible WITHOUT the
center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs in the way music
and films are mixed??

-ChrisCoaster
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On Jan 1, 11:20*pm, "None" wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message

...





"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
s.com...
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 04:54:22 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):


I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects

to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally

have
this "problem" with other films.)


Would anyone care to comment on this?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


You're just noticing this now?


It's not something I've (much) noticed on other films.


The problem is endemic to the business. *Many, many, MANY films
are mixed in such a way that their dynamic range is too wide for home
video. This has been an issue for a decade or more.


I have very good playback equipment, so this might not have been apparent
to


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaargh!

Yes, you've got wonderful equipment (you forgot to mention the planar
speakers one more time). You're a professional writer (god knows why),
and you're rarely ever wrong (hehe).

You're trying to play 5.x material on a 4.x system. Numerous suggestions
have been given, including deploying a center channel speaker, and learning
how to adjust the settings on you (very good, of course, very good)
equipment.
But you just don't seem to get it.

If you're not using a center speaker and watching it in 5.1 surround,
then
you'll never hear it in the way the re-recording engineers intended.


That pretty much goes


The "quality" of the system is not the issue. The planarity of the speakers
is not the issue. The issue is that the system does not implement the
format found in the source material, so manipulating the processing is
required, and different manipulation may be required with different source
material. If you tried to reproduce stereo audio with a single (very good,
planar) speaker, it would probably sound screwed-up as well.

/uncloak

__________
I was JUST thinking the same thing! Theres a lot of phase-related and
psychoacoustic stuff going on here that WS needs to grasp.

I remember as a kid growing up on a Mono record player the kind you
fold up the case and carry it any where, and a portable mono am/fm
radio. Because of that SETUP I assumed that's how a certain song I
liked was "supposed " to sound. Later as a teen I listened through
headphones on a decent receiver or even a walkman and suddenly heard a
lot more within those same songs. At first I was surprised and wasnt
sure if I liked the effect. But gradually I realized that stereo
sources ar not totally revealing unless listened to on a STEREO set
up. FFWD to today, and apply to your setup, Will.


-CC


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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this -- movies are more
intelligible with a full [setup] (with center/dialogue spkr as our
across-the-pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible
WITHOUT the center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs
in the way music and films are mixed??


If the Center or Dialog speaker isn't identical to the Left and Right, the
imaging might be degraded. This is one of the reasons I don't use a Dialog
speaker.


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ChrisCoaster ChrisCoaster is offline
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On Jan 6, 6:32*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this -- movies are more
intelligible with a full [setup] (with center/dialogue spkr as our
across-the-pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible
WITHOUT the center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs
in the way music and films are mixed??


If the Center or Dialog speaker isn't identical to the Left and Right, the
imaging might be degraded. This is one of the reasons I don't use a Dialog
speaker.

_________
To a point, Will. Modern centers have largely caught up to a good
pair of mains, particularly in the bottom end. Also, some a/v
receivers have a "timbre" control that can do a good job of overcoming
most differences.

The point everyone on here has been trying to make is of course the
movie you saw in an(hopefully SMPTE compliant)auditorium with full
center & surrounds will not sound the same at home downmixed to a
setup with fewer speakers. Avatar may represent the worst common
denominator in revealing dialogue clarity issues in your setup, but
I'm sure it's not the only picture that may see signif improvement
with the addn of a center speaker. Try out Titanic or some other
Cameron-produced films and see if they too have intelligibility issues
on par with Avatar. If they do, then its a Cameron issue or an issue
with his prodn chain, but still, its good to have a reference point to
judge film production issues by, and that platform is the maximum # of
speakers a feature may be designed to play on.

-CC
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On Jan 6, 6:32*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this -- movies are more
intelligible with a full [setup] (with center/dialogue spkr as our
across-the-pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible
WITHOUT the center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs
in the way music and films are mixed??


If the Center or Dialog speaker isn't identical to the Left and Right, the
imaging might be degraded. This is one of the reasons I don't use a Dialog
speaker.

________
If you read carefully you may notice I said that the center - in my
setup at least, greatly benefits movies & tv shows but seems to have
the opposite effect when listening to music, excepting country/
western, where the lead vocal is given "space" in the mix. Anything
else, from Katy Perry to Taio Cruz, and they sound drowned, esp with
the amount of stuff sent to surrounds!(Pro Logic for 2ch sources)
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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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"ChrisCoaster" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 6:32 am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this -- movies are more
intelligible with a full [setup] (with center/dialogue spkr as our
across-the-pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible
WITHOUT the center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs
in the way music and films are mixed??


If the Center or Dialog speaker isn't identical to the Left and Right, the
imaging might be degraded. This is one of the reasons I don't use a Dialog
speaker.

_________
To a point, Will. Modern centers have largely caught up to a good
pair of mains, particularly in the bottom end. Also, some a/v
receivers have a "timbre" control that can do a good job of overcoming
most differences.

The point everyone on here has been trying to make is of course the
movie you saw in an(hopefully SMPTE compliant)auditorium with full
center & surrounds will not sound the same at home downmixed to a
setup with fewer speakers. Avatar may represent the worst common
denominator in revealing dialogue clarity issues in your setup, but
I'm sure it's not the only picture that may see signif improvement
with the addn of a center speaker. Try out Titanic or some other
Cameron-produced films and see if they too have intelligibility issues
on par with Avatar. If they do, then its a Cameron issue or an issue
with his prodn chain, but still, its good to have a reference point to
judge film production issues by, and that platform is the maximum # of
speakers a feature may be designed to play on.


Please don't take my "not interested" response personally. My system is set
up for music reproduction, not theater sound. (The surround speakers are
normally fed from a JVC hall synthesizer or the "rear" channels of SACDs and
audio Blu-rays.) Reproducing the theater experience is not of much interest
to me -- the fact that my electronics and speakers are better than those
found in theaters is more important.

I am curious as to why there is this anomaly with a handful of recordings --
but I don't have the time to experiment.


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Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 06:32:13 -0500, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this -- movies are more
intelligible with a full [setup] (with center/dialogue spkr as our
across-the-pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible
WITHOUT the center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs
in the way music and films are mixed??


If the Center or Dialog speaker isn't identical to the Left and Right, the
imaging might be degraded. This is one of the reasons I don't use a Dialog
speaker.


Not on my system.

I thought you said the reason you didn't have a center was because there was
no where to put it...

Regards,

Ty



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA



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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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ChrisCoaster wrote:
It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this - movies are more
intelligible with a full(with center/dialogue spkr as our across the
pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible WITHOUT the
center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs in the way music
and films are mixed??


Bingo!
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this -- movies are more
intelligible with a full [setup] (with center/dialogue spkr as our
across-the-pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible
WITHOUT the center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs
in the way music and films are mixed??


If the Center or Dialog speaker isn't identical to the Left and Right, the
imaging might be degraded. This is one of the reasons I don't use a Dialog
speaker.


You'd think so, but it doesn't work that way in a film mix, which is all
panpotted intensity stereo anyway, and where the center channel is carrying
almost entirely dialogue. The center channel doesn't degrade the imaging
of the stuff that isn't mixed into the center channel, which is most of the
mix.

Try it and see!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:

It's ironic, Scott, and I did notice this -- movies are more
intelligible with a full [setup] (with center/dialogue spkr as our
across-the-pond friend calls it), but music is more intelligible
WITHOUT the center, in surround! Is that just because of diffs
in the way music and films are mixed??


If the Center or Dialog speaker isn't identical to the Left and
Right, the imaging might be degraded. This is one of the reasons I
don't use a Dialog speaker.


KEF Coax designs do a good job.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen





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