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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)

The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and effects to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally have
this "problem" with other films.)

Would anyone care to comment on this?

--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land


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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:

I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects to be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I
don't generally have this "problem" with other films.)


Would anyone care to comment on this?


1) deploy a center-speaker, say something KEF Coax.

2) after setup eq it + 2dB, q1.4 at 2.5 kHz

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...
William Sommerwerck wrote:


I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising
the overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects to be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and
I don't generally have this "problem" with other films.)


Would anyone care to comment on this?


1) Deploy a center-speaker, say something KEF Coax.
2) After setup eq it + 2dB, q1.4 at 2.5 kHz


1) There is no room for a center speaker in front of my display.
2) As I said, this problem does not generally occur with other films.

Why does everything spelled out in excruciating detail? I wanted to say
"comment on the psychoacoustics and/or mixing practices of this", but
figured it would be obvious. I guess not.


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William Sommerwerck wrote:

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...


William Sommerwerck wrote:


I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night,
after having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The
films are thematically similar.)


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising
the overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects to be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and
I don't generally have this "problem" with other films.)


Would anyone care to comment on this?


1) Deploy a center-speaker, say something KEF Coax.
2) After setup eq it + 2dB, q1.4 at 2.5 kHz


1) There is no room for a center speaker in front of my display.
2) As I said, this problem does not generally occur with other films.


Why does everything spelled out in excruciating detail? I wanted to
say "comment on the psychoacoustics and/or mixing practices of this",
but figured it would be obvious. I guess not.


Because that eq is what I deployed on a yamaha + klipsch setup a couple of
years ago that had the same problem and an owner with known hearing damage
partly from working in the coal mines down under as a youngster and partly
from a diving mishap.

The psychoacoustics of it is that it is a treshold of audibility vs. masking
issue, quite possibly caused by the movie soundtrack being mixed somewhat
louder than you prefeer to listen. Also putting the vox in a center
loudspeaker as planned in the mix will reduce the temporal smear of your
room, that too leads to consonant loss just as does the masking from the
music and effects tracks.

That explanation may be more helpful to you than an exemplification of it,
but there are other people out there who read what we type here on all those
"forums" that are just a clandestine and illicit echo of usenet.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen







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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)

The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and effects to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally have
this "problem" with other films.)

Would anyone care to comment on this?


How are you listening to it? You are listening to the AC-3 or the dts
track, or to the stereo non-surround tracks or to a locally downmixed
track?

What does "do not use a dialog speaker" mean? You have 4.1 with the
center missing?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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William Sommerwerck wrote:

Why does everything spelled out in excruciating detail? I wanted to say
"comment on the psychoacoustics and/or mixing practices of this", but
figured it would be obvious. I guess not.


Well, if you are listening to a modern 5.1 track, all of the dialogue is
in the center channel, and you won't hear any of it at all, just a little
reverb.

It's possible to play 5.1 back on a two-speaker system by "folding" the
center and surround tracks into the left and right, and your playback
device may have a bunch of settings for doing this in various ways. The
settings (at least on the theatre systems) that work best vary substantially
from film to film.

If you instead of listening to the 5.1 track listen to the supplied stereo
or matrix surround track, you might be okay... but these days those tracks
are definitely an afterthought and they are frequently just folded back from
the 5.1 tracks.

That said, I ran the film in 35mm with old-style optical sound, just two
tracks which had probably been downmixed from the 5.1. I recall having
to increase the center channel a little bit over nominal, but I have to
do that with a lot of films these days, especially when showing in halls
with a long reverb time; it does seem like so many films today are mixed
to sound good in the living room rather than a theatre.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:


I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and effects

to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally

have
this "problem" with other films.)


Would anyone care to comment on this?



How are you listening to it? You are listening to the AC-3 or the DTS
track, or to the stereo non-surround tracks or to a locally downmixed
track?


I'm listening to 5.1 DTS Master (zero compression), through four Apogee Diva
speakers, driven by four Parasound A21 amplifiers.


What does "do not use a dialog speaker" mean? You have 4.1
with the center missing?


How stupid could I be, Scott?

No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is split
through left and right front.


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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
William wrote:

Why does everything spelled out in excruciating detail? I wanted to say
"comment on the psychoacoustics and/or mixing practices of this", but
figured it would be obvious. I guess not.


Well, if you are listening to a modern 5.1 track, all of the dialogue is
in the center channel, and you won't hear any of it at all, just a little
reverb.


For Avatar, not being able to hear the dialogue is a plus....


snip
--scott


--
Les Cargill
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William Sommerwerck wrote:

No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is
split through left and right front.


That is how I understood you, but it is nice to get it unambiguous. Can you
adjust the center level and/or on the controling amp in spite of it being
mixed into L and R channels? - you will loose clarity, ie. have a larger
consonant loss than on the mix down system, if you do not have a dedicated
center speaker and that will make the mix appear incorrect.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is
split through left and right front.


That is how I understood you, but it is nice to get it unambiguous. Can

you
adjust the center level and/or on the controling amp in spite of it being
mixed into L and R channels? - you will loose clarity, ie. have a larger
consonant loss than on the mix down system, if you do not have a dedicated
center speaker and that will make the mix appear incorrect.


I think the point that's not getting across is that "Avatar" is the
/exception/. Virtually every other DVD or BD sounds fine. It's "Avatar" that
seems to have weak and poor focused dialog -- until you turn up the volume a
bit.

I'm trying to find out if there is any psychoacoustic understanding of this
effect -- or I'm just full of hot air. (No wisecracks, please.)




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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Well, if you are listening to a modern 5.1 track, all of the
dialogue is in the center channel, and you won't hear any
of it at all, just a little reverb.


For Avatar, not being able to hear the dialogue is a plus...


Mr Cameron is not the world's greatest screenwriter. He would do well to
call in better writers for advice.


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William Sommerwerck wrote:

William Sommerwerck wrote:


I think the point that's not getting across is that "Avatar" is the
/exception/. Virtually every other DVD or BD sounds fine. It's
"Avatar" that seems to have weak and poor focused dialog -- until you
turn up the volume a bit.


I'm trying to find out if there is any psychoacoustic understanding
of this effect


Back before I stopped bothering and had a tv I used dolby surround and back
then my observation was that some mixes need 3 dB more center-channel. Then
as now my guess at understanding that too loud playback during mix is the
most likely explanation, but the clarity gained from having the dialogue
from a single source is unavoidably a part of it as well, especially if they
intentionally mixed it to the edge of a bit "buried" or just didn't record
it right.

Channel delay is assumed correct, note however that back when I did bother
to listen to dolby surround that too was an adjustment that needed frequent
tweakeing.

please


Try deploying a center loudspeaker, there may be other detail waiting in the
mix for you to discover. Also William, you are not young, but it would be
wise even if you we get the hearing threshold checked.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

William Sommerwerck wrote:


I think the point that's not getting across is that "Avatar" is the
/exception/. Virtually every other DVD or BD sounds fine. It's
"Avatar" that seems to have weak and poor focused dialog -- until you
turn up the volume a bit.


I'm trying to find out if there is any psychoacoustic understanding
of this effect


Back before I stopped bothering and had a tv I used dolby surround and

back
then my observation was that some mixes need 3 dB more center-channel.

Then
as now my guess at understanding that too loud playback during mix is the
most likely explanation, but the clarity gained from having the dialogue
from a single source is unavoidably a part of it as well, especially if

they
intentionally mixed it to the edge of a bit "buried" or just didn't record
it right.


Channel delay is assumed correct, note however that back when I did bother
to listen to dolby surround that too was an adjustment that needed

frequent
tweakeing.


Try deploying a center loudspeaker, there may be other detail waiting in

the
mix for you to discover. Also William, you are not young, but it would be
wise even if you we get the hearing threshold checked.


HF-wise, my hearing cuts out about 10kHz to 12kHz. Threshold-wise, I can
turn down my bedroom TV's volume to practically nothing (at night) and still
understand the dialog.

I do have trouble with dialog /in movies/, even when it's played fairly
loud. My first experience with this was 30+ years ago, in "Superman": "Don't
worry, miss. I've got you." "Mmmff mmmff MMMFF? Mmmff mmmff MMMFF!" It took
me a long time to figure out what Lois was saying.

I will not be deploying a Dialog speaker. I live by myself, and don't feel I
need it. Besides, it would probably screw up the imaging, as my speakers are
all planar.


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William Sommerwerck wrote:
Well, if you are listening to a modern 5.1 track, all of the
dialogue is in the center channel, and you won't hear any
of it at all, just a little reverb.


For Avatar, not being able to hear the dialogue is a plus...


Mr Cameron is not the world's greatest screenwriter. He would do well to
call in better writers for advice.



Dialogue seems to be a lost art, outside of Coen Brothers stuff. they
manage to be non-hubris-ey, but it's a winner-take-all
market...

--
Les Cargill
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Peter wrote in message
k...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is
split through left and right front.


That is how I understood you, but it is nice to get it unambiguous. Can

you
adjust the center level and/or on the controling amp in spite of it being
mixed into L and R channels? - you will loose clarity, ie. have a larger
consonant loss than on the mix down system, if you do not have a dedicated
center speaker and that will make the mix appear incorrect.


I think the point that's not getting across is that "Avatar" is the
/exception/. Virtually every other DVD or BD sounds fine. It's "Avatar" that
seems to have weak and poor focused dialog -- until you turn up the volume a
bit.

I'm trying to find out if there is any psychoacoustic understanding of this
effect -- or I'm just full of hot air. (No wisecracks, please.)




I believe it is a consistent and repeated process failure. They mix 'em
with the monitors up too loud, to make the explosions more prominent.

--
Les Cargill



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William Sommerwerck wrote:

What does "do not use a dialog speaker" mean? You have 4.1
with the center missing?


How stupid could I be, Scott?

No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is split
through left and right front.


Right, but what ratios is it splitting it to?

You're always going to have somewhat lower intelligibility when you
do this, compared with using a center channel. But the ratio at which
you want to set the level depends on the mix itself, because you are
basically downmixing everything to a different presentation format.

Once the center channel is not physically separate in space, you lose some
ability to pick it out, so the appropriate relative dialogue levels are
not exactly the same. And, the more cluttered the mix is, the more you
will need to punch the dialogue channel up.

Your dts decoder should have a bunch of menus that let you adjust downmix
parameters.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:



What does "do not use a dialog speaker" mean? You have 4.1
with the center missing?


No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is

split
through left and right front.


Right, but what ratios is it splitting it to?


Whatever the player's default is for a four large, zero dialog setup.


Once the center channel is not physically separate in space, you lose some
ability to pick it out, so the appropriate relative dialogue levels are
not exactly the same. And, the more cluttered the mix is, the more you
will need to punch the dialogue channel up.


Your dts decoder should have a bunch of menus that let you adjust downmix
parameters.


I'd have to look. The decoder is in the player, and I don't remember any
settings for it.


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William Sommerwerck wrote:
I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)

The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects to be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I
don't generally have this "problem" with other films.)

Would anyone care to comment on this?


Clearly the 5.1 soundtrack is mixed to necessarily use the CF speaker.

You either need to invest in a real 5.1 system, or listen tio a 2-channel
soundtrack (or downmix), for this and many other current movies.

geoff


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William Sommerwerck wrote:

Try deploying a center loudspeaker, there may be other detail
waiting in the mix for you to discover. Also William, you are not
young, but it would be wise even if you we get the hearing
threshold checked.


HF-wise, my hearing cuts out about 10kHz to 12kHz.


Presumeably so with a sweep, but hearing is not that simple due to the
overlap of the critical bands, signal in a lower band will partially count
as a detection bias in a higher band helping sound get over even a raised
threshold of hearing.

There is no such thing as a frequency response for the sense of hearing, it
simply is not a valid concept due to the wide variability of the hearing
threshold.

Increased problems with masking is the first subjectively noticed symptom of
a threshold shift due to impulse noise damage, usually centered around the 6
kHz area and not very well detected initially by a "spot check treshold
determination" at 2, 4 and 8 kHz. Such treshold shifts are usually not at
all noticed until they exceed 40 dB.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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"geoff" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:


I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising
the overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects to be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I
don't generally have this "problem" with other films.)


Would anyone care to comment on this?


Clearly the 5.1 soundtrack is mixed to necessarily use the CF speaker.
You either need to invest in a real 5.1 system, or listen tio a 2-channel
soundtrack (or downmix), for this and many other current movies.


It's amazing that, no matter how many times I repeat it, no one pays
attention to what I actually said (above).




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William Sommerwerck wrote:

"geoff" wrote in message


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising
the overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects to be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I
don't generally have this "problem" with other films.)


Would anyone care to comment on this?


Clearly the 5.1 soundtrack is mixed to necessarily use the CF
speaker. You either need to invest in a real 5.1 system, or listen
tio a 2-channel soundtrack (or downmix), for this and many other
current movies.


It's amazing that, no matter how many times I repeat it, no one pays
attention to what I actually said (above).


It is amazing how many people here come with the very same suggestion and
you discard it without testing whether it also makes the sound better on the
movies that you do not think you have a problem with.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising
the overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects to be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I
don't generally have this "problem" with other films.)
Would anyone care to comment on this?


Clearly the 5.1 soundtrack is mixed to necessarily use the CF
speaker. You either need to invest in a real 5.1 system, or listen
tio a 2-channel soundtrack (or downmix), for this and many other
current movies.


It's amazing that, no matter how many times I repeat it, no one pays
attention to what I actually said (above).


It is amazing how many people here come with the very same suggestion and
you discard it without testing whether it also makes the sound better on

the
movies that you do not think you have a problem with.


gritting his teeth to the point of grinding off the enamel

I'm a technical writer. I am obliged to write clearly. It is often difficult
to do so in the rush of posting on UseNet.

Nevertheless... (which happens to be the punchline of a really dirty joke)

I made it clear that the "Avatar" soundtrack IS AN EXCEPTION. The
overwhelming majority of other soundtracks DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM. (See
above.) Ergo and QED, there would be little point in adding a Dialog
speaker.

I was curious about the psychoacoustics of the situation. Why do the voices
sound distant and poorly imaged at what is (for me) a reasonable listening
level, but suddenly come into focus when I play the sound a few dB higher?
Is this the way the human hearing mechanism works?

The one answer that made sense (even though it was tautological) was the
suggestion that the voices were mixed at a "normal" level, rather than being
raised to compete with the loud sound effects. In other words, the "Avatar"
soundtrack has a dynamic range that more-closely matches the real world,
rather than being squashed.


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William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Right, but what ratios is it splitting it to?


Whatever the player's default is for a four large, zero dialog setup.


The defaults aren't always right... the defaults might be right for
something mixed in one particular way, but it's the same thing as
taking a stereo track and summing it to mono; the perceived relative
levels inside the mix are going to change.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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William Sommerwerck wrote:
I made it clear that the "Avatar" soundtrack IS AN EXCEPTION. The
overwhelming majority of other soundtracks DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM. (See
above.) Ergo and QED, there would be little point in adding a Dialog
speaker.


I think if you listen around, you'll hear a few others that have the same
problem. And I think that if you do this, you'll find that the others
with the same problem are also very dense mixes.

Try _Saving Private Ryan_ which I recall also having fairly buried dialogue
in some scenes.

No, not all mixes are like that, they are all different.

I was curious about the psychoacoustics of the situation. Why do the voices
sound distant and poorly imaged at what is (for me) a reasonable listening
level, but suddenly come into focus when I play the sound a few dB higher?
Is this the way the human hearing mechanism works?


Yes, and I am not sure anyone really knows how the phenomenon really works.
Sometimes you can also just do a little presence boost on the dialogue and
have it pop out too.

You should really experiment with a center channel speaker... even just a
random mismatched one for the purposes of testing. You'll be surprised at
how much more focussed it makes the dialogue. I don't know why, but it
was a Bell Labs discovery back in the thirties. You wouldn't think it
would make any difference at all when you're on-axis, but you're never
precisely on-axis.

the one answer that made sense (even though it was tautological) was the
suggestion that the voices were mixed at a "normal" level, rather than being
raised to compete with the loud sound effects. In other words, the "Avatar"
soundtrack has a dynamic range that more-closely matches the real world,
rather than being squashed.


This is true, and this is part of the overall denseness. Again, try Saving
Private Ryan which is the film that first made popular that sort of mixing
style.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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THANK YOU, Scott.




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William Sommerwerck wrote:

I'm a technical writer. I am obliged to write clearly. It is often
difficult to do so in the rush of posting on UseNet.


Nah, seems to work fine for you. Reading is also important, the more so as
people think a writer wrote what they read.

Nevertheless... (which happens to be the punchline of a really dirty
joke)

I made it clear that the "Avatar" soundtrack IS AN EXCEPTION. The
overwhelming majority of other soundtracks DO NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM.
(See above.) Ergo and QED, there would be little point in adding a
Dialog speaker.

I was curious about the psychoacoustics of the situation. Why do the
voices sound distant and poorly imaged at what is (for me) a
reasonable listening level, but suddenly come into focus when I play
the sound a few dB higher? Is this the way the human hearing
mechanism works?


Yes, read up on recruitment.

The one answer that made sense (even though it was tautological) was
the suggestion that the voices were mixed at a "normal" level, rather
than being raised to compete with the loud sound effects. In other
words, the "Avatar" soundtrack has a dynamic range that more-closely
matches the real world, rather than being squashed.


Ah yes, but there is a major difference betweeen acceptable max loudness in
a large room and what works with a cinema system, including a center
loudspeaker with a high and reasonably uniform directivity index and what
works in a smaller air volume.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen








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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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"William Sommerwerck" writes:

"geoff" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:


I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)


The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising
the overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects to be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I
don't generally have this "problem" with other films.)


Would anyone care to comment on this?


Clearly the 5.1 soundtrack is mixed to necessarily use the CF speaker.
You either need to invest in a real 5.1 system, or listen tio a 2-channel
soundtrack (or downmix), for this and many other current movies.


It's amazing that, no matter how many times I repeat it, no one pays
attention to what I actually said (above).



I feel your pain.


I'll toss in my $0.02...


- in a really good room (one that's well treated and perhaps even a real mix room),
I don't see why one must have a center channel for casual film playback -- unless
you are doing film mixing.

(In the mix room here, I've had a few of the "general public" who know nothing about
audio production but who might have a 5.1 home system, demand that I reveal the
center speaker. Heh. Sorry, there isn't one. "But I swear, that singer is
coming out right there, rock solid in the middle! How do you do that??"

What's taking place is excellent control of early reflections, proper diffusion,
along with optimal RT30 performance across the audio band (and it varies as you go
low to high). It all makes for good imaging, something usually not found at home,
nor in most theaters. Hence the need for a center speaker -- but it shouldn't be
mandatory, methinks, if you're home alone, in the "sweet spot" for your room.)

- Many of the more subtle aspects of "mix art" seem to have been lost with some mix
engineers -- be it film or music. Might be nothing more than the mixers doing spot
checks on other sets of monitors at different levels, coming back with fresh ears a
week or a month later to make *sure* everything sits where it should, etc.

- mix engineers need to keep in mind that the *entire* signal chain, from
microphone to speaker, is unnatural and limited. Often the mixer needs to do a
little counter-intuitive magic to distract the listener from those short-comings.

In music mixing, I'll often add several little gain moves (typically 0.5 to 1.2 dB)
to add clarity to, say, a vocal or bass (way better than stomping the hell out of it
with a comp, as even at equal levels that might not be what's required; you might
need to goose the end of a phrase just a bit, for example, because the singer pulled
back off mic, ran out of air a bit, or you're competing with instruments or, in the
case of film, fx or music.)

But the knowledge to do that takes experience and post time (budget) that might not
be available.

- if they're adding reverb, or had some subtle room sound floating along with the
dialog, this can dent intelligibility. (Yeah, it might have been a big-time ADR room
but maybe they were careless and the voices were off mic, the pattern was wrong, any
number of things can slip by in the heat of the moment. And, some faults might be
subtle enough such that they're not noticed until the very end of the chain -- your
house.)

Had they caught something like this in time, either dip the low mids a bit, or bump
the mid highs a bit, or if a 'verb issue, increase the predelay or change 'verb time
and EQ settings -- but they might never know if they (a) don't try the mix on other
monitors and (b) don't try a check at lower levels.

Welcome to the modern world where a lot of well-paid audio engineers might have
never heard ANYTHING, voice or music, that didn't have transducers and
electronics somewhere in the path to their ears.

IMO, being a good mixer, regardless of genre or working theater (no pun), means on a
regular basis hearing things in a completely acoustic setting so that you're
reminded what things actually sound like -- and from that gaining awareness of all
those shortcomings in our systems.

Pays yers money and takes yers chances; it's nice at least that some place you can
adjust the level.

Frank
Mobile Audio
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If I could get my stupid Sony to stop jumping to random audio playback
modes every time you sneeze at the remote I'd be happy. Fortunately
now that we know our personal audio head scratcher is always due to
the setting jumping we just set it back. But I still get occasional
holler from the youngest one that the dialog suddenly dropped again,
and thanks to the bizarrely configured interface it's pretty easy to
make it worse on the way to fixing it, so she doesn't have my blessing
to got rooting into the menu just yet.

That there are so many ways to handle the audio makes sense, but jeez,
the hardware UI sure doesn't make it easy.

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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Thanks for your interesting observations, Mr Stearns.


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Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:44:09 -0500, Peter Larsen wrote
(in article ):

Why does everything spelled out in excruciating detail? I wanted to
say "comment on the psychoacoustics and/or mixing practices of this",
but figured it would be obvious. I guess not.


Because that eq is what I deployed on a yamaha + klipsch setup a couple of
years ago that had the same problem and an owner with known hearing damage
partly from working in the coal mines down under as a youngster and partly
from a diving mishap.

The psychoacoustics of it is that it is a treshold of audibility vs. masking
issue, quite possibly caused by the movie soundtrack being mixed somewhat
louder than you prefeer to listen. Also putting the vox in a center
loudspeaker as planned in the mix will reduce the temporal smear of your
room, that too leads to consonant loss just as does the masking from the
music and effects tracks.

That explanation may be more helpful to you than an exemplification of it,
but there are other people out there who read what we type here on all those
"forums" that are just a clandestine and illicit echo of usenet.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


It doesn't matter unless it matters. Maybe they mixed with a center dialog
speaker on Avatar and really made an effort to make that center channel
happen and keep dialog to a minimum elsewhere.

I don't know about illicit, but clandestine, prolly.

HNY!

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA



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Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:43:51 -0500, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):
with the center missing?

How stupid could I be, Scott?

No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is split
through left and right front.


Will,

I don't think Scott was saying you were stupid. The pinwheel of different
multitrack PB options on my receiver amp do amazing things to plain old
dialog. If you have one, give it a spin and see if another seting works
better.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

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Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:19:43 -0500, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

I'm trying to find out if there is any psychoacoustic understanding of this
effect -- or I'm just full of hot air. (No wisecracks, please.)


..........

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

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Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 06:23:56 -0500, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

It's amazing that, no matter how many times I repeat it, no one pays
attention to what I actually said (above).


Repeating yourself and expecting a different answer = insanity, no?

We're trying to help. You don't want it. Game Over.

They mixed the movie differently or encoded it differently.

That's pretty much it.

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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Ty Ford wrote:

That explanation may be more helpful to you than an exemplification
of it, but there are other people out there who read what we type
here on all those "forums" that are just a clandestine and illicit
echo of usenet.


I don't know about illicit, but clandestine, prolly.


When googling something you will find references to "bbs-type forums" where
we all appear to be active participants.

HNY!


Thanks & to you, yours and all here!

Ty Ford


Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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Marc Wielage[_2_] Marc Wielage[_2_] is offline
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 04:54:22 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)

The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and effects to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally have
this "problem" with other films.)

Would anyone care to comment on this?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


You're just noticing this now?

The problem is endemic to the business. Many, many, MANY films are mixed in
such a way that their dynamic range is too wide for home video. This has
been an issue for a decade or more.

If you're not using a center speaker and watching it in 5.1 surround, then
you'll never hear it in the way the re-recording engineers intended. This
will be a compromise that will grossly affect the mix (as Geoff comments
elsewhere). One reason why a 4-speaker layout will not work is that you're
going to run into unpredictable phase cancellations, which will tend to
affect EQ and balance. I agree with Peter's comments: get a center channel
(even a non-matching speaker), bump the center level up a dB or so, and see
how that sounds.

BTW, if you think this is bad, listen to the remixes on the STAR TREK shows
and some of the older Bond films done for Blu-ray. Way, way, way too dynamic
for me. There are many, many home video mixes that have this problem, but
the vast majority of them are reasonable; it just happens that you discovered
this with AVATAR, two years after the movie was released. In my opinion, the
issue is not so much that the loud sounds are too loud; it's that the quiet
dialog passages are _too low_. This is bound to wreak havoc in a 4-speaker
system.



Les Cargill commented:

I believe it is a consistent and repeated process failure. They mix
'em with the monitors up too loud, to make the explosions more
prominent.
------------------------------snip------------------------------


It's not as simple as that. There are standard set-up parameters and program
level practices established by SMPTE, the AES, and the CAS, typically based
around a program level of 85dB. Read the extensive discussion on how films
and TV shows are mixed for surround at this link:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-...andard-mixing-
levels-movie-theater-dvd-broadcast-tv-commercials-etc.html

The ITU and other organizations have more recently come up with new ways of
measuring apparent loudness and dialog levels, so one hopes that this problem
is becoming more understood. Here's a technical paper that explains their
methods:

http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...201103-I!!PDF-
E.pdf

Certainly for broadcast (and home video), I think the mixes today are
generally coming more into line with reality than they were, say, five years
ago. In particular, TV mixes are fine and are carefully checked for
compatibility, both with a 2-channel downmix and a 5.1 surround mix -- and
sometimes, they even check mono compatibility as well.

--MFW



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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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"Ty Ford" wrote in message
al.NET...
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:43:51 -0500, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):
with the center missing?

How stupid could I be, Scott?

No, the system is configured for no Dialog speaker -- center front is

split
through left and right front.


Will,

I don't think Scott was saying you were stupid. The pinwheel of different
multitrack PB options on my receiver amp do amazing things to plain old
dialog. If you have one, give it a spin and see if another seting works
better.


I'm not sure what you're talking about. All my equipment -- including my
SACD player -- is set for four large speakers, no Dialog speaker, and
separate woofer. There are not alternative options for my speaker setup.


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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 04:54:22 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)

The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and effects

to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally

have
this "problem" with other films.)

Would anyone care to comment on this?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


You're just noticing this now?


It's not something I've (much) noticed on other films.


The problem is endemic to the business. Many, many, MANY films
are mixed in such a way that their dynamic range is too wide for home
video. This has been an issue for a decade or more.


I have very good playback equipment, so this might not have been apparent to
me.


If you're not using a center speaker and watching it in 5.1 surround, then
you'll never hear it in the way the re-recording engineers intended.


That pretty much goes without saying.


This will be a compromise that will grossly affect the mix (as Geoff

comments
elsewhere). One reason why a 4-speaker layout will not work is that you're
going to run into unpredictable phase cancellations, which will tend to
affect EQ and balance.


I don't altogether follow. If the Dialog speaker is used solely for dialog,
and Lf/Rf solely for music/effects, how would splitting the dialog to Lf/Rf
create phasing effects?


I agree with Peter's comments: get a center channel
(even a non-matching speaker), bump the center level up a dB or so, and

see
how that sounds.


BTW, if you think this is bad, listen to the remixes on the STAR TREK

shows
and some of the older Bond films done for Blu-ray. Way, way, way too

dynamic
for me. There are many, many home video mixes that have this problem, but
the vast majority of them are reasonable; it just happens that you

discovered
this with AVATAR, two years after the movie was released.


I saw it in the theater, but I waited until the Blu-ray got cheap enough to
justify purchasing.


In my opinion, the
issue is not so much that the loud sounds are too loud; it's that the

quiet
dialog passages are _too low_. This is bound to wreak havoc in a 4-speaker
system.


Well, as you have a volume control, there's little distinction between the
two. Regardless, I felt that, even with the dialog set for a "natural"
level, the loudest passages were loud enough to be exciting, without
breaking my ear drums. Whoever did the mixing judged the relative levels
very well.


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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Marc Wielage wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 04:54:22 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)

The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and effects to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally have
this "problem" with other films.)

Would anyone care to comment on this?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


You're just noticing this now?

The problem is endemic to the business. Many, many, MANY films are mixed in
such a way that their dynamic range is too wide for home video. This has
been an issue for a decade or more.

If you're not using a center speaker and watching it in 5.1 surround, then
you'll never hear it in the way the re-recording engineers intended. This
will be a compromise that will grossly affect the mix (as Geoff comments
elsewhere). One reason why a 4-speaker layout will not work is that you're
going to run into unpredictable phase cancellations, which will tend to
affect EQ and balance. I agree with Peter's comments: get a center channel
(even a non-matching speaker), bump the center level up a dB or so, and see
how that sounds.

BTW, if you think this is bad, listen to the remixes on the STAR TREK shows
and some of the older Bond films done for Blu-ray. Way, way, way too dynamic
for me. There are many, many home video mixes that have this problem, but
the vast majority of them are reasonable; it just happens that you discovered
this with AVATAR, two years after the movie was released. In my opinion, the
issue is not so much that the loud sounds are too loud; it's that the quiet
dialog passages are _too low_. This is bound to wreak havoc in a 4-speaker
system.



Les Cargill commented:

I believe it is a consistent and repeated process failure. They mix
'em with the monitors up too loud, to make the explosions more
prominent.
------------------------------snip------------------------------


It's not as simple as that. There are standard set-up parameters and program
level practices established by SMPTE, the AES, and the CAS, typically based
around a program level of 85dB. Read the extensive discussion on how films
and TV shows are mixed for surround at this link:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-...andard-mixing-
levels-movie-theater-dvd-broadcast-tv-commercials-etc.html

The ITU and other organizations have more recently come up with new ways of
measuring apparent loudness and dialog levels, so one hopes that this problem
is becoming more understood. Here's a technical paper that explains their
methods:

http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...201103-I!!PDF-
E.pdf

Certainly for broadcast (and home video), I think the mixes today are
generally coming more into line with reality than they were, say, five years
ago. In particular, TV mixes are fine and are carefully checked for
compatibility, both with a 2-channel downmix and a 5.1 surround mix -- and
sometimes, they even check mono compatibility as well.

--MFW


Thank you, Marc. Interesting stuff.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri
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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Marc Wielage wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 04:54:22 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in ):

I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)

The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and effects to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally have
this "problem" with other films.)

Would anyone care to comment on this?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


You're just noticing this now?

The problem is endemic to the business. Many, many, MANY films are mixed in
such a way that their dynamic range is too wide for home video. This has
been an issue for a decade or more.

If you're not using a center speaker and watching it in 5.1 surround, then
you'll never hear it in the way the re-recording engineers intended. This
will be a compromise that will grossly affect the mix (as Geoff comments
elsewhere). One reason why a 4-speaker layout will not work is that you're
going to run into unpredictable phase cancellations, which will tend to
affect EQ and balance. I agree with Peter's comments: get a center channel
(even a non-matching speaker), bump the center level up a dB or so, and see
how that sounds.

BTW, if you think this is bad, listen to the remixes on the STAR TREK shows
and some of the older Bond films done for Blu-ray. Way, way, way too dynamic
for me. There are many, many home video mixes that have this problem, but
the vast majority of them are reasonable; it just happens that you discovered
this with AVATAR, two years after the movie was released. In my opinion, the
issue is not so much that the loud sounds are too loud; it's that the quiet
dialog passages are _too low_. This is bound to wreak havoc in a 4-speaker
system.



Les Cargill commented:

I believe it is a consistent and repeated process failure. They mix
'em with the monitors up too loud, to make the explosions more
prominent.
------------------------------snip------------------------------


It's not as simple as that. There are standard set-up parameters and program
level practices established by SMPTE, the AES, and the CAS, typically based
around a program level of 85dB. Read the extensive discussion on how films
and TV shows are mixed for surround at this link:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-...andard-mixing-
levels-movie-theater-dvd-broadcast-tv-commercials-etc.html

The ITU and other organizations have more recently come up with new ways of
measuring apparent loudness and dialog levels, so one hopes that this problem
is becoming more understood. Here's a technical paper that explains their
methods:

http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...201103-I!!PDF-
E.pdf

Certainly for broadcast (and home video), I think the mixes today are
generally coming more into line with reality than they were, say, five years
ago. In particular, TV mixes are fine and are carefully checked for
compatibility, both with a 2-channel downmix and a 5.1 surround mix -- and
sometimes, they even check mono compatibility as well.

--MFW



Wow - thanks for that, Marc.

--
Les Cargill

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None None is offline
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 04:54:22 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article ):

I started watching the "collector's" cut of "Avatar" last night, after
having watched the terrific Blu-ray of "King Kong". (The films are
thematically similar.)

The dialog sounded rather distant and lacking in presence. Raising the
overall level a few dB fixed this, without causing the music and
effects

to
be unduly loud. (I do not use a Dialog speaker, and I don't generally

have
this "problem" with other films.)

Would anyone care to comment on this?
------------------------------snip------------------------------


You're just noticing this now?


It's not something I've (much) noticed on other films.


The problem is endemic to the business. Many, many, MANY films
are mixed in such a way that their dynamic range is too wide for home
video. This has been an issue for a decade or more.


I have very good playback equipment, so this might not have been apparent
to


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaargh!

Yes, you've got wonderful equipment (you forgot to mention the planar
speakers one more time). You're a professional writer (god knows why),
and you're rarely ever wrong (hehe).

You're trying to play 5.x material on a 4.x system. Numerous suggestions
have been given, including deploying a center channel speaker, and learning
how to adjust the settings on you (very good, of course, very good)
equipment.
But you just don't seem to get it.

If you're not using a center speaker and watching it in 5.1 surround,
then
you'll never hear it in the way the re-recording engineers intended.


That pretty much goes without saying.


Duh! (D'oh!)

I don't altogether follow. If the Dialog speaker is used solely fordialog,
and Lf/Rf solely for music/effects, how would splitting the dialog to
Lf/Rf
create phasing effects?


There are three front speakers: L, C, R. The arbitrary assumption
that the center is only dialog and the L and R are only for music
and effects is an oversimplification, and is frequently not a valid
representation of real-world material The material is mixed for three
front channels, and you've only got two. If your (very good, of course,
planar, of course) speakers are so wonderful that you can't deploy
a third front speaker, then you should learn to dick with the settings
on your (very good, of course, very good) surround processor. If that
doesn't work, maybe your very good equipment is not up to the task,
or the I'm-almost-always-correct audio writer doesn't understand the
format or his own equipment.

If you spent as much time reading and understanding the suggestions
that have been made, as you've spent complaining that people supposedly
don't understand your expert writing, you might have perceived a clue.

The "quality" of the system is not the issue. The planarity of the speakers
is not the issue. The issue is that the system does not implement the
format found in the source material, so manipulating the processing is
required, and different manipulation may be required with different source
material. If you tried to reproduce stereo audio with a single (very good,
planar) speaker, it would probably sound screwed-up as well.

/uncloak


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