Behold, Steve O'Neill signalled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

Hi:


Um...

...there *ain't* no facts in that crockumentary, sonny, it's just
Moore's way of jacking off in public. Sucker bait.

And now, Moore has ten of the dollars that used to live in *your*
pocket.

Sucker.

Absolutely correct assessment of that POS excuse for a documentary. It's
a poorly edited collage of (mostly) readily available, low rez news
clips presented to the unsuspecting audience totally out of context.
Simply a means of Moore propagating his political views at the expense
(literally) of the public. Yeah, I admit I paid to see this film. Bad
investment. I left the theater with a deep sense of loss...of $8.50
(ticket) and 3hrs of my invaluable time. Total waste of time and $$.

And make no mistake about it, despite Moore's intentionally scruffy
appearance and demeanor, he's a hollywood elitist fat-cat living off the
efforts of others and whose contributions to the "art" are dubious at
best. Kind of like Babs and Whoopee.

--
Steve

Meh, my brother and I thought F-9/11 was the best movie this millenia so
far :-)

--
Gregg
*It's probably useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

I thought it was a Great Movie. Showing bush and channey and how greedy
they are to sacrifice america for money for themselves. They dont care
about us....

(Captain Crane) said:

I thought it was a Great Movie. Showing bush and channey and how greedy
they are to sacrifice america for money for themselves. They dont care
about us....

Channey???????

You probably won't believe it, but no politician gives a damn about
us, the US, or anyone else. That includes Kerry.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Captain Crane wrote:

I thought it was a Great Movie. Showing bush and channey and how greedy
they are to sacrifice america for money for themselves. They dont care
about us....

I saw the movie here today in Canberra, capitol city of Australia.

The queue to get in stretched a hundred yards for the advanced screening on
a sunday afternoon..

I've read a couple of Moore's books which also describe some of the content
of the movie
and the theme of American empire building, with that utter ****wit, George W
at its leader,
and at the cost of so many ordinary low class american sons and daughters,
deemed to be expendable in the name of corporate greed and progress
to cheaply extract the Iraqui oil with an absolutely minimum benefit to the
Iraqis.

Meanwhile, Osama roams free, Bush didn't really try to catch this murderer,
but assisted all the BinLaden relatives out of the country right after 9/11.

The Taliban are back in business in Afghanistan, and the drug growing
businesses are
flourishing again to wreck more young lives, and to fund the terrorists
desires
for arms. Its not a place where one could persue a legitimate life easily,
say by seeking a Mc Donald's franchise store at a friendly street location
in downtown Kabul.

But the movie didn't have time to spend on every silly world situation like
Korea,
where the utter arsoles who rule Nth Korea
are still there, posing a horrendously worse threat with their atomic WMD
plans,
and with an attrocious human rights record, but there's no oil in Korea.
Maybe Dubya shouldn't try to solve that problem, another costly mess
wouldn't be worth it.


The furious screaming Iraqi woman shown in the movie had had 5 innocent
folks killed in her family
from american bombs,
and its quite understandable that should the US have a presence in Iraq for
5 years, they stand
to loose another few thousand men, because the culture in Iraq is tribal,
and one with a policy of
an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth, and revenge must be sought for
illdeeds,
before an issue is resolved. Its been going on for about 10,000 years.
Then there is the cost to the american little person taxpayer
of many billions of $$, while corporate america reels in obscene profits and
pays
far smaller taxes, so the the improvements to schools and hospitals and
opportunities in america
will have to be postponed for a little longer.
America seems to not understand the culture of the countries it invades, or
in which it causes
"regime changes" , and its doing it again, and I think the imposition of the
american version of democracy
in Iraq will be laden with pools of blood and screaming victims for many
years to come.

Moore brings our attention to the swathes of america where the peoples'
opportunities
for inclusion into the goodlife is quite minimal, and where the young
military recruitment officers dressed in
handsome Uncle Sam parade uniforms were roaming lower class areas looking
for mugs to recruit.
No good recruiting in the well off suburban malls, because middle america
don't like being shot at
in a desert, or car bombed in the suburban Iraqi streets.
When Moore asked senators if they'd mind sending their sons to help out in
Iraq,
thay all scurried away from him.

The US soldiers portrayed seemed to have a completely scary juvenile
attitude,
devoid of any humanity, real cowboys, trampling and shooting
indiscriminately
across Iraq, making house searches which only alienated the inhabitants,
leaving plenty of mess to clean up,
very much like the Gestapo, but then absurdly saying its all part of winning
the hearts
and minds of the people of Iraq, who were scared to death with the onerous
menace of US presence.

The grieving american mother who'd lost her son
concluded the cause was complete waste of time, and was extremely angry with
a government
who invaded another soverign nation who was no threat to America, and from
where no real threat had ever come.


The continued fight by the small determined bands of mainly young Iraqis who
are a small %
of the country's 22 millions could eventually defeat the US, and any puppet
goverment that is installed there.
I am reminded of Varus, the Roman leader of troops in Germania in the year 6
AD,
who fell victim to the ambushes by tribal rebels, and who perished with 10%
of Rome's army.
Augustus was dismayed.
Rome was forced to limit her expansion to the Roman side of the Rhine, and
history
was fundementally changed in Europe for the next 2,000 years.
The German tribes lost Rome, and Rome lost Germany.
Gradual peaceful trade would have been better and easier for everyone,
and Hitler would never have evolved.
Vietnam also cost America an absurd quantity of blood, and $$$$, for
nothing,
and do you think the young Iraqi warriors don't know all that?
They want their country back, with not a single american on their soil.
If Iraq was a hyper power nation and invaded America, doncha think
good 'ol american boys would fight back anyway they could?

The right wing rednecks here call Moore a complete fraud, because he's a fat
white
rich american living in a 6.3 mill mansion, and who get limosined around,
instead of using his old battered VW beetle.

But so what. He succeeds to prick the conscience of the far right, big
business
and Bush, who are all sorely tempted to create a US dictatorship,
and who'd like to go a little further in reducing the rights of its
citizens..

His success yeilded a decent return, he got a break, yet his mind is set to
continue his crusade,
and I see no fraud in this, and if he drove his old VW, he'd more likely be
assasinated by
agents loyal to the regime.
Moore's success is minimal compared to the deals being done over the spoils
of Iraq.

No mention of Australia's part of the coalition of the willing was made.
We only have a thousand ppl in the middle east, and not at the front line.
But methinks we are there because our leader expects a pay off with the
Free Trade Agreements between the US and Oz, but mark my words, we won't see
any benefits,
since all the fine print and hundreds of pages of detail all favour the
terms drawn up by the US.
We were promised all sorts of BS for the 500 lives we lost at Vietnam, but
I don't think we got any advantages for those 2,000 pints of blood.


George W might just get a shock on Nov 2.

Patrick Turner.

Apologies in advance for the OT message, to those who may be offended.

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing
a far different tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years
for you to spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American
propaganda before you crawl with your hat in hand
and plead for assistance against the Islamic menace
you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you
think Fahrenheit 911 is true, you probably also
think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use the
Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American



Patrick Turner wrote:
(crap)

Behold, Lord Valve signalled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing a far different
tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years for you to
spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American propaganda before you crawl
with your hat in hand and plead for assistance against the Islamic
menace you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you think Fahrenheit 911
is true, you probably also think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use
the Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American

LV,

Being anti-Bush does NOT mean one has to be anti-American

Before I saw the movie, I thought Bush was a moron and the majority of
Yanks, useless f00kwits.

After the movie, I feel pity for the American people for being so hosed
and so butt-f00ked by their own president, who is supposed to care for
them. Who can the people trust if not for their own leader?

I also realized that Bush is smart-as-a-fox....I can't fault him for
supporting his friends and family, but to drag a nation down with his own
corporate greed, is so disgusting, IMHO, he should stand trial in the
Hague for warcrimes.

--
Gregg t3h g33k
"Ratings are for transistors....tubes have guidelines"
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Gregg IS RIGHT for what he says.... The President is GREEDY - To ALL OF
YOU SEE THE MOVIE - FAHRENHEIT 9/11. Im a REPUBLICAN and after I saw
this Movie i was at gasp on how Greedy Bush is and how he does not Care
for America or its Citizens - All Bush cares is for his own GREED.
Watch the Movie - Come Back here and we will Talk and Discuss it.
SOMTHING IS WRONG IN AMERICA !!!!
Brian - Las Vegas

BEHOLD LORD VALVE KEYED HIS .4 MilliWatt PIECE OF NOTHING - Thinks he is
Somthing. Lord Vave is Really Nothing just an old man with old and
Stupid ways. SO KEY THIS UP LORD VALVE. AS I HAVE JUST BLOWN YOUR
FILIMENTS OF STUPIDITY AWAY.
SEE THE MOVIE LORD VALVE - I DARE YOU AND COME BACK HERE AND WILL TALK
ABOUT IT !!!!!.
BRIAN - LAS VEGAS

Lord Valve wrote in news:40FACBB7.940C8DE4
@ix.netcom.com:

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing
a far different tune when your cities go up in smoke.


If anything it'll be American cities going up in smoke for invading two
Muslim countries in three years. Reap the rewards, hail to the chief.

On a further note; If a country didn't have the money/expertise to
develope hardening for all of it's ss equipment used in combat,
wouldn't it just do what it could with tube equipment?

Advanced technology improvements require large amounts of r&d money.

Bob H.

"Trevor Wilson" wrote:


"Brian Bower" wrote in message
...
If a nuclear bomb was dropped on the USA or if we have a War in the
World with Bombs that can disrubt the Magnetic Field in an area they
explode then all Computer's , Semiconductors and transistors will be
usesless. Here are some thoughts.
1.) Since Semiconductors will be destroyed if there is to much radiation
/ or magnetic field will the Goverment go back to making Tubes and Tube
devices in order for our military to function. Some Tubes are too bulky
but if a whole new line of Nuvistor Tubes were to be designed we might
be able to survive more in a war or in a terrorist society. ???

**Nonsense, on so many levels. Nuclear weapons create and EMP (Electro
Magnetic Pulse) which *may* damage some semiconductors. If those semis are
isolated within a Faraday Shield (ooh, say, like a computer case) they will
probably survive. Particularly, if they are not actually being used.

2.) Military Aircraft need computers to help fly them. Would it be
possible to build a Nuvsistor type computer system to be used in planes
incase of a war . ????

**Modern war craft employ 'hardened' elecytronics systems, which are pretty
much impervious to EMP. It has been that way for many years.

3.) IF the Goverment wanted to go back to making tubes again - Does RCA,
Sylvania, GE have the old Tube Tools to make these tubes again ???.

**Not likely.

4.) If say RCA, Sylvania, GE have lost the designs and tools to make
tubes again do you think that the millitary may ask the public say they
were to buy our left over tubes to dysect and use as a blueprint to
build a new generation of tubes that can be used in a Nuclear type war.
???

**Not necessary. Tubes are finished. The only use for tubes, in in musical
instrument amplification and an insignificant number of domestic audio
devices.

I would be a rich man. i have alot of tubes still....hahaha...
I think is an idea that the US Goverment should think about !!!. What
do you all think about this ???.

**I think you should go and have a nice lie down.

Bob H.

Just grab that plate in one hand, the chassis in the other,
and FEEL the power of tube audio!!!
(not literally, of course, just kidding. DON'T DO THAT!)

In article , says...

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing
a far different tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years
for you to spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American
propaganda before you crawl with your hat in hand
and plead for assistance against the Islamic menace
you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you
think Fahrenheit 911 is true, you probably also
think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use the
Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American



Patrick Turner wrote:
(crap)

Dear Lord Valve,
If you are going to call someone stupid, and writing crap, it's a good idea to
point out the specific errors of their ways. From you responses, it seems that
you believe Iraq and/or Saddam had some link to 9/11. You are wrong there. You
also seem to think that Iraq under Hussein was somehow involved in "Islamic
menace". Although Saddam threw a few bucks toward palestinian terrorists, he
was in no way connected to Al-queda. Much more money going to the terorists
comes from Saudi Arabia, a country whose rulers are in bed with the Bush
family. 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. Zero from Iraq. Osama
hates Saddam. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, Osama volunteered his services to
attack Saddam and Iraq. Saddam is a secularist, and wanted nothing to do with
Jihad. Osama is a religious fanatic.Further, Iran is the country with the nuke
program, not Iraq. I guess you get easily confused with those similarly named
countries. The 9/11 commission, headed by a republican, says there is no link
between 9/11 and Iraq. There are no WMDs to be found. The inspectors told us
this before the war. If Bush wanted to improve the WMD situation. Iraq would
be down low on the priority list. North Korea, Iran, and Russia are bigger
threats (Russia has alot of unguarded nuclear mterials).
FAHRENHEIT 9/11 is not anti-american. I would like to see why you say it is,
beyond just a rant. What lies are you refering to that are in the movie?
Perhaps you are the one that has been had in a major way, and your anger is
being displaced.

LV,

I haven't seen the movie in question, and don't care to, but Turner seems to
have his other facts right, AFAIK.

I agree that the "Islamic Menace" will make it's presence felt in Australia
sooner or later, and that it would be naïve to believe or act otherwise.

I'm put off by your character assassination and bad manners. Red herrings
and personal attacks don't belong in a logical (and heaven forbid civil)
argument. But perhaps I err in assuming that truth is a goal we share in
common.

Although the U.S. may be the swinging dick at the moment, if you've ever
traversed around the globe you'd realize that there are other valid
weltanschauungs.

I'm put off by the myopic cowboy crap that dominates the airwaves and US
foreign policy. I welcome your contributions on tubes and audio stuff - the
political vitriol is best spent elsewhere.

- Jon







in article s8HKc.111089$JR4.79350@attbi_s54, Don at
wrote on 7/18/04 11:23 PM:

In article , says...

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing
a far different tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years
for you to spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American
propaganda before you crawl with your hat in hand
and plead for assistance against the Islamic menace
you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you
think Fahrenheit 911 is true, you probably also
think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use the
Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American



Patrick Turner wrote:
(crap)

Dear Lord Valve,
If you are going to call someone stupid, and writing crap, it's a good idea to
point out the specific errors of their ways. From you responses, it seems that
you believe Iraq and/or Saddam had some link to 9/11. You are wrong there. You
also seem to think that Iraq under Hussein was somehow involved in "Islamic
menace". Although Saddam threw a few bucks toward palestinian terrorists, he
was in no way connected to Al-queda. Much more money going to the terorists
comes from Saudi Arabia, a country whose rulers are in bed with the Bush
family. 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. Zero from Iraq. Osama
hates Saddam. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, Osama volunteered his services to
attack Saddam and Iraq. Saddam is a secularist, and wanted nothing to do with
Jihad. Osama is a religious fanatic.Further, Iran is the country with the nuke
program, not Iraq. I guess you get easily confused with those similarly named
countries. The 9/11 commission, headed by a republican, says there is no link
between 9/11 and Iraq. There are no WMDs to be found. The inspectors told us
this before the war. If Bush wanted to improve the WMD situation. Iraq would
be down low on the priority list. North Korea, Iran, and Russia are bigger
threats (Russia has alot of unguarded nuclear mterials).
FAHRENHEIT 9/11 is not anti-american. I would like to see why you say it is,
beyond just a rant. What lies are you refering to that are in the movie?
Perhaps you are the one that has been had in a major way, and your anger is
being displaced.

Lord Valve wrote:

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing
a far different tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years
for you to spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American
propaganda before you crawl with your hat in hand
and plead for assistance against the Islamic menace
you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you
think Fahrenheit 911 is true, you probably also
think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use the
Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American

Patrick Turner wrote:
(crap)

Why, I do believe our paranoid mr valve is real stirred by my words,
none of which were aimed at him,
but I sure as hell don't care that he took it all so personally.

I doubt he likes democracy, and would prefer to see
all who think differently, and VOTE differently, all taken out and shot,

along with all the muslims.

Has mr valve seen Farenheit 9/11?

Patrick Turner.

Jon Yaeger wrote:

LV,

I haven't seen the movie in question, and don't care to, but Turner seems to
have his other facts right, AFAIK.

I agree that the "Islamic Menace" will make it's presence felt in Australia
sooner or later, and that it would be naïve to believe or act otherwise.

I'm put off by your character assassination and bad manners. Red herrings
and personal attacks don't belong in a logical (and heaven forbid civil)
argument. But perhaps I err in assuming that truth is a goal we share in
common.

Although the U.S. may be the swinging dick at the moment, if you've ever
traversed around the globe you'd realize that there are other valid
weltanschauungs.

I'm put off by the myopic cowboy crap that dominates the airwaves and US
foreign policy. I welcome your contributions on tubes and audio stuff - the
political vitriol is best spent elsewhere.

- Jon



You read the hostile leftwing anti-American horse-****
that **** from Oz put up, and you have the *nerve* to
lecture *me* about "political vitriol?" **** YOU,
asswipe...you not only drank the leftist kool-aid,
you *drowned* your ****in' self in it.

Lord Valve
American

Lord Valve Keyed his .4 mili watt Tube and his filiment burned - out.
Lord Valve needs a Tube Replacement for his Brain. Lord Valve thinks
that using bad and abusive language will make him BIG AND TALL. Lord
Valve thinks he 's Somthing But he is Really NOTHING.
See the Movie - 911 Lord Valve and we can Talk about it and Dont use the
Abusive language Lord Valve - It Only makes you look smaller. If your
having too much problems in Life Lord Valve by Using Bad Language then I
think you should get some professional help to find out why you are
Angry - Prozac also is helpful Lord Valve.
Attention Lord Valve Needs a New .4 Milliwatt Tube he burned his out
years ago - does someone have a spare ???..... Brian - Las Vegas , NV

Captain Crane wrote:

Lord Valve Keyed his .4 mili watt Tube and his filiment burned - out.
Lord Valve needs a Tube Replacement for his Brain. Lord Valve thinks
that using bad and abusive language will make him BIG AND TALL. Lord
Valve thinks he 's Somthing But he is Really NOTHING.
See the Movie - 911 Lord Valve and we can Talk about it and Dont use the
Abusive language Lord Valve - It Only makes you look smaller. If your
having too much problems in Life Lord Valve by Using Bad Language then I
think you should get some professional help to find out why you are
Angry - Prozac also is helpful Lord Valve.
Attention Lord Valve Needs a New .4 Milliwatt Tube he burned his out
years ago - does someone have a spare ???..... Brian - Las Vegas , NV

Long term use of Prozac has some nasty side effects.

Far better if he just go and see the movie to see what all the fuss is
about.
If he dons a cape, and sunglasses on the way in, and on the way out,
we won't tell a soul we seem im at the movies.

mr valve needs to face reality, even though he doesn't want to.
Oh how beserko all these die hard rightwingers go because they hate not
being in control.

When I was 20, I made sure that I was never going to get drafted to Vietnam,

so I became a Conscientious Objector, which was the description at the time
for
the tiny minority like myself, who keep saying NO to some idiot in a uniform
who
screams at me to obey blindly. I won't, and never will.
At least half my father's generation were battle hardened from WW2 and
couldn't be conned
by ideas about fear, and terrorists, and imposing western democracy on
moslems in 5 minutes,
and knew why they went off to put the wind up the
germans, and the japs, whose human rights acrtivities were attrocious.
And the wise were not fooled by Stalin, the biggest arsole of all time.
Fortunately, Stalin was on our side in WW2, and russians paid the largest
price
to kick the german butt.
They sure were not fooled by the right wing govt here in the 1950s and 60s
about silly ideas of communism and China creeping down to Oz from the north
to rape their missus.
And neither was I, but I didn't need to go to a war to see that Vietnam was
BS.

20 years later, I met military dudes at parties who regretted not nuking
Hanoi,
and probably, they still think it'd be a nice thing to do.
I know who the terrorists are!

But I also recently saw the film documentary, Dogs of War wherin one Robert
McNamara
expressed deep regret about america's Vietnam involvemant, and gave us
rather a lot to think about prior to repeating history, if only we would
choose to do so.
But I'd heard what Robert had said over 10 years ago when he first woke up
to his country's follies
in the jungles. He's 84 now, and has had an interesting life. His design
efforts at Ford Motors
did that company some good, and his insistance on seat belts saved countless
americans from an
early bloody death.
Anyway, I felt quite vindicated about Vietnam, and although I had workmates
and friends who
went over there to help kill ppl for a corrupt southern govt, I didn't hold
that against them.
The Oz contingent were well loved by the locals on "our side", and we didn't
have too many
sergeant Calleys in our ranks. Maybe we did more good than harm, but
the country should have been left to slug it out amoungst themselves,
and we would have had nothing to fear from the communism that followed,
except that it would have been difficult for Mc Donalds' outlets to start
up,
or Malboro ciggarettes to be sold. Maybe the commos think such rotgut and
rotlung
isn't needed, and I think they are right.
It would have been preposterous for Britain to intervene in the US civil war

where a million men died over what seems now to have been better resolved by
negotiation,
but as my mother said, "...you men, youse don't listen!"
Had the communists kicked out French out in 1955, and taken over without
having to kick
the butt of the US at great national sacrifice, the ppl would have
got sick and tired of the commo comedian crew a lot sooner, and by now the
country would have become
so, so much better off because a major war with all its damage wouldn't have
been
fought, and everyone would have been a winner, including the business of the
US,
which always seems to feel ****ed when its temporarily shut out of some
country
where profits beckon.
Now there are thousands of vietnamese about to sue the US for the way agent
orange
has "genetically modified" so many innocent ppl, and I hope the US and its
corporations are ready to cough up in a big way,
but no doubt they'll try to weasel out of it.

I was pretty mad with a small minority of university students who gathered
funds to send to
the viet cong, so they could fire more bullets at fellow australians, and
americans.

I admire Ghandi, who led millions of people to all just go sit in the middle
of the road awhile.
Something has to give if they keep sittin there.
And we can but hope it is the oppressive regime.
Corporations and govt collapse if ppl sit on the roads and all go on strike
until they get a better deal. Not a shot has to be fired, not a bomb has to
be blown,
although simply unbolting anything around which is bolted together could be
included.
And I hope the "terrorists" read my message, to gain for their people their
rightful share of the opportunities, education
medications, and all of what we take for granted but which we won't share.
In the fullness of time, ALL the world's people would be better off,
not just the americans and its business sector, but everyone.

It may also distress mr valve who must be having an apoplectic fit by now
reading this
that I even like Nelson Mandela.

One thing my mother told me, never discuss sex, politics or religion at the
dinner table.
So I only enjoyed the best dinner parties where all 3 were discussed,
especially the mistakes of our govermnents, girlfriends, and philosophers, (
since we all
had given up any practice of religion.).
Discussions were nicely hot at times, accompanied by the occasional door
slam.
The TV generation hasn't had the experience.

I do remember discussions about what was better, was it a triode amp, or a
beam tetrode.
My father's generational audio concerns seem somewhat amusing but dull when
I think back.
It was always engineering orientated, because my father wasn't able to
fathom music,
and nor my uncle who was a mining engineer. Actually enjoying music was
rather queer to them,
and and a kinda alien thing to do, and a waste of time.
But we was a good mayor for 9 years in the local council, and he didn't have
to rely
on being affiliated with major political parties, like it is now.
Because that generation was so often so uptight, and unable to relax, they
sometimes tried to spoil anyone else's attempt, but they were busy building
the great post
war world....

And well can we smile at what the concerns of today's kids may be,
but have we left them a world in good shape for them to inherit?
Plenty of hardware, but what of the software; the ethics of how the joint
ought to be run?

Maybe they can just do a search on Google for how to run the planet.

I think rec.audio tubes is very healthy at the moment, a little talk of the
times
about the world adds spice to the everyday chatter
about tubes, amps, and bloomin AM radio detectors.

Patrick Turner.

Lo ipse dixit.




Jon Yaeger wrote:

LV,

I haven't seen the movie in question, and don't care to, but Turner seems to
have his other facts right, AFAIK.

I agree that the "Islamic Menace" will make it's presence felt in Australia
sooner or later, and that it would be naïve to believe or act otherwise.

I'm put off by your character assassination and bad manners. Red herrings
and personal attacks don't belong in a logical (and heaven forbid civil)
argument. But perhaps I err in assuming that truth is a goal we share in
common.

Although the U.S. may be the swinging dick at the moment, if you've ever
traversed around the globe you'd realize that there are other valid
weltanschauungs.

I'm put off by the myopic cowboy crap that dominates the airwaves and US
foreign policy. I welcome your contributions on tubes and audio stuff - the
political vitriol is best spent elsewhere.

- Jon



You read the hostile leftwing anti-American horse-****
that **** from Oz put up, and you have the *nerve* to
lecture *me* about "political vitriol?" **** YOU,
asswipe...you not only drank the leftist kool-aid,
you *drowned* your ****in' self in it.

Lord Valve
American

Leftist, rightist, whatever - another fabricated label for people like
yourself to dismiss everyone else's point of view. It's obvious by your ad
hominem attacks that your incapable of entertaining any rational debate or
discussion. That's OK - that's what killfiles are for - You're in good
company with Phil Allison, Andre Jute, and the like.

As far as lectures are concerned, IMHO you're in dire need of one on the
subject of basic human skills.

Jon










You read the hostile leftwing anti-American horse-****
that **** from Oz put up, and you have the *nerve* to
lecture *me* about "political vitriol?" **** YOU,
asswipe...you not only drank the leftist kool-aid,
you *drowned* your ****in' self in it.

Lord Valve
American

Patrick Turner said:

Has mr valve seen Farenheit 9/11?

You don't suppose Lord "Howling Mad Willie" Valve wants to be bothered
with something annoying like the truth about his hero Bush, do you?

:-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"Bob Hedberg" wrote in message
...
On a further note; If a country didn't have the money/expertise to
develope hardening for all of it's ss equipment used in combat,
wouldn't it just do what it could with tube equipment?

**No. It would simply buy it off the shelf. Gearing up to use tubes in
military equipment is (now) FAR too expensive.


Advanced technology improvements require large amounts of r&d money.

**Which is why you buy it from the people who have done all the work.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

thats right !!!!

Sander deWaal wrote in message . ..
Patrick Turner said:

Has mr valve seen Farenheit 9/11?

You don't suppose Lord "Howling Mad Willie" Valve wants to be bothered
with something annoying like the truth about his hero Bush, do you?

:-)

Soon to be just another popped tube...

Hatred and violence brings...hatred and violence.

Sad but, some people will never learn...

Could love be the answer?

Happy tubing!

Tubetwang wrote:

Sander deWaal wrote in message . ..
Patrick Turner said:

Has mr valve seen Farenheit 9/11?

You don't suppose Lord "Howling Mad Willie" Valve wants to be bothered
with something annoying like the truth about his hero Bush, do you?

:-)

Soon to be just another popped tube...

Hatred and violence brings...hatred and violence.

Sad but, some people will never learn...

Could love be the answer?

I dunno.

Do a Google search on 'love'.

The results should keep you gainfully employed for a decade at least.

But most ppl have no time....

Patrick Turner.



Happy tubing!

Behold, Patrick Turner signalled from keyed 4-1000A filament:



Tubetwang wrote:


Soon to be just another popped tube...

Hatred and violence brings...hatred and violence.

Sad but, some people will never learn...

Could love be the answer?

I dunno.

Do a Google search on 'love'.

The results should keep you gainfully employed for a decade at least.

But most ppl have no time....

Patrick Turner.



Happy tubing!

I remember an old "joke" in Playboy once, it displayed one pic of Vietnam
protestors with the caption "Make love, not war!" and the second showed an
obsessed businessman with the caption "Make money, not love".

Whomever wrote that was a bloody prophet!

--
Gregg t3h g33k
"Ratings are for transistors....tubes have guidelines"
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Gregg wrote:

Behold, Patrick Turner signalled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

Tubetwang wrote:


Soon to be just another popped tube...

Hatred and violence brings...hatred and violence.

Sad but, some people will never learn...

Could love be the answer?

I dunno.

Do a Google search on 'love'.

The results should keep you gainfully employed for a decade at least.

But most ppl have no time....

Patrick Turner.



Happy tubing!

I remember an old "joke" in Playboy once, it displayed one pic of Vietnam
protestors with the caption "Make love, not war!" and the second showed an
obsessed businessman with the caption "Make money, not love".

Whomever wrote that was a bloody prophet!

After the first hooker in the world gave her services free one morning,
about 11,000 years ago, in the first back alley in the first ghetto
neighbourhood,
she decided to make both money and love,
and history has repeated itself ever since.

Patrick Turner.



--
Gregg t3h g33k
"Ratings are for transistors....tubes have guidelines"
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:11:13 +1000, the highly esteemed Patrick Turner
enlightened us with these pearls of wisdom:



Lord Valve wrote:

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing a far different
tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years for you to
spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American propaganda before you crawl
with your hat in hand and plead for assistance against the Islamic
menace you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you think Fahrenheit 911
is true, you probably also think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use
the Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American

Patrick Turner wrote:
(crap)

Why, I do believe our paranoid mr valve is real stirred by my words, none
of which were aimed at him,
but I sure as hell don't care that he took it all so personally.

I doubt he likes democracy, and would prefer to see all who think
differently, and VOTE differently, all taken out and shot,

along with all the muslims.

Has mr valve seen Farenheit 9/11?

Patrick Turner.

I don't know if LV has seen it, but Christopher Hitchens has. Hitchens is
an ultra-leftist, so when he says Farenheit 9/11 is bull****, it should
tell you something. Choke on this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

--
Greg

Long time no talk to Greg!

I thought the heat would eventually attract my other namesakes ;-)

--
Gregg t3h g33k
"Ratings are for transistors....tubes have guidelines"
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Greg Pierce wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:11:13 +1000, the highly esteemed Patrick Turner
enlightened us with these pearls of wisdom:



Lord Valve wrote:

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing a far different
tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years for you to
spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American propaganda before you crawl
with your hat in hand and plead for assistance against the Islamic
menace you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you think Fahrenheit 911
is true, you probably also think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use
the Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American

Patrick Turner wrote:
(crap)

Why, I do believe our paranoid mr valve is real stirred by my words, none
of which were aimed at him,
but I sure as hell don't care that he took it all so personally.

I doubt he likes democracy, and would prefer to see all who think
differently, and VOTE differently, all taken out and shot,

along with all the muslims.

Has mr valve seen Farenheit 9/11?

Patrick Turner.

I don't know if LV has seen it, but Christopher Hitchens has. Hitchens is
an ultra-leftist, so when he says Farenheit 9/11 is bull****, it should
tell you something. Choke on this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

I would never sum up Micheal Moore as being 100% correct.
But he sure ain't 100% wrong, like you infer, and the film clearly illustrates
what he was saying lend weight to his alternative viewpoint to the rabid far
right,
who are hell bent on making obscene profits, and have the little people
pay for the war, and die in their war, so the oil profits will flow.
If there wasn't any oil in Iraq, the invasion would never have happened, even
if Saddam
did have a few WMDs, and even if he was twice the arsole to his people that he
was.

The above supposedly left wing commentator you refer me to
does not have me chokin and quakin.
Too many holes in the arguments, and I won't bore everyone by spending
3 days and 100,000 words to describe why.
And I simply don't know all the answers.

But the film says a lot, and because time is limited, left out a lot,
but it paints Dubbya as being a simpleton, a village idiot, and merely a
figurehead
for the right wing and daddy's friends.
Dubbya would seem to struggle to run a chook raffle properly.

Bill Clinton was interviewed here on tele last monday, and they repeated the
interview
tonight because of the huge number here who demanded a re-run of this priceless
interview.
Ppl want to hear what he has to say, because the man is coherent,
has very sensible opinions, and is a leader, and all that despite some romping
in the
Oval Office. At least he wasn't embezzling the nation's finances.
As I see it, many folks are wishing he was still president. But the press and
the fools
can only remember Monica.

I couldn't imagine a jerk like Bush ever being able to speak any real sense
in any candid interview, and I fear all you'd get would be nonsense like what
you'd get from a
cowboy with IQ = 100.
He needs to have every syllable spoon fed to him as he reads.
There are so few folks who respect him. They fear and loathe him.
He was caught napping while Osama alegedly planned and carried out his attack.

You'd think the great US of A with all of its mighty resources
would have caught up with Osama by now, but Dubbya had Iraq and oil weath on
his mind,
so he eased up on Osama, and maybe he'll get away with it.
Maybe he's sittin nice and cosy with his family relations in Saudi Arabia,
where George's friends live and who have all those oil billions invested in the
US economy.
But even if they caught Osama just before the Nov2 election, the arab world
would still be as resentful as ever, and the terrorists would keep on coming.
700 million arabs see Osama as a hero, because he dared to
strike back at the US. Personally, I think they are all wrong, and they'd
achieve
far more life improvements if they persued peaceful civil disobedience, instead
of
bombing us every day. Both sides seem blind to the possibilities,
and both act treacherously following agreements.

BTW, Osama should indeed be considered innocent until proven guilty.
This way of doing things is the fairest way for all, and it is the friendly
hallmark of our
enlightened justice system, and you appreciate if there is a knock on the door
from the police one evening. You wouldn't like to be hauled off to a dungeon
and tortured for
a crime you didn't commit, and one you couldn't raise a defense against,
but that what happens in so many other countries.
It does look likely Osama would be found guilty of mass murder, like Saddam,
but justice in both your country and mine is not based on a presumption of
guilt
prior to a trial. We have to be sure of of guilt.
The trials are supposed to bring out the truth, and should we ever jail or
execute anyone who is innocent,
it makes us murderers, and indeed there have been many cases of dudes on death
row
who have been found innocent, most recently by means of DNA testing.

Meanwhile Afghanistan is a right mess especially after the intervention by
russia, then the US.
The Taliban were not defeated, and away from the main cities,
life is the same grind its been for 10,000 years, but the poppies get harvested
as usual
to ruin more lives.

I don't think Dubbya is finished yet, and he might invade and conquer a few
more
arab nations if he gets re-elected, and terrorism will get the boost we didn't
want.
The US might disrupt much of the arab lands, and at a huge expense we can't
afford,
and even if the US stole all the arab investments, and stole all the oil,
there is still the only the same amount of oil and people to consume it, and
pay for it,
and none of us are actually better off, except the rich folks at the top, who
already have too much.
But we could trust the US to sell what they win in wars at ruinous prices.
I don't see any bonanzas, just screams, and pools of blood, and huge bills,
and torrents of BS.

But I hate to think if Nth Korea gives an atom bomb to some enterprising
terrorists
fed up with the US bombing the **** out of their home towns, and stealing
resources.
And if Dubbya does a pre-emptive strike against NK's nuclear arsonals, I hate
to think where that would lead.

Maybe we'll all have to bend down,
and kiss our arses goodbye.


Patrick Turner.



--
Greg

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

Greg Pierce wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:11:13 +1000, the highly esteemed Patrick Turner
enlightened us with these pearls of wisdom:

I don't know if LV has seen it, but Christopher Hitchens has. Hitchens
is an ultra-leftist, so when he says Farenheit 9/11 is bull****, it should
tell you something. Choke on this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

I would never sum up Micheal Moore as being 100% correct.
But he sure ain't 100% wrong, like you infer, and the film clearly
illustrates what he was saying lend weight to his alternative viewpoint to
the rabid far right, who are hell bent on making obscene profits, and have
the little people pay for the war, and die in their war, so the oil profits
will flow. If there wasn't any oil in Iraq, the invasion would never have
happened, even if Saddam did have a few WMDs, and even if he was twice the
arsole to his people that he was.

The above supposedly left wing commentator you refer me to
does not have me chokin and quakin.
Too many holes in the arguments, and I won't bore everyone by spending 3
days and 100,000 words to describe why.

Why not? It's never stopped you to date!

And I simply don't know all the answers.

Hooray!!!!

Perhaps Michael Moore is really one of Bush's constituents, after all,
look at how much better off he is with Bush in office . He is just
playing off of the extreme left nut jobs who are ****ed about not
being in the white house. If Kerry was in office what would these
fruit cakes complain about then? Moore is a profiteer nothing more.
His movie is fictional account that made a lot of money from a
particular demographic. Though I don't agree with the far left
whatsoever, (I consider myself a moderate conservative), it's not that
every single argument the left makes is without merit. This movie,
purporting to have truth and being so false, really does a disservice
to that side and any Dems who associate with it. Clinton wouldn't
touch this flick if he was running. So, does Michael Moore secretly
hope Bush will win?


Patrick Turner wrote in message ...
Greg Pierce wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:11:13 +1000, the highly esteemed Patrick Turner
enlightened us with these pearls of wisdom:



Lord Valve wrote:

You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing a far different
tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years for you to
spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American propaganda before you crawl
with your hat in hand and plead for assistance against the Islamic
menace you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you think Fahrenheit 911
is true, you probably also think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use
the Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American

Patrick Turner wrote:
(crap)

Why, I do believe our paranoid mr valve is real stirred by my words, none
of which were aimed at him,
but I sure as hell don't care that he took it all so personally.

I doubt he likes democracy, and would prefer to see all who think
differently, and VOTE differently, all taken out and shot,

along with all the muslims.

Has mr valve seen Farenheit 9/11?

Patrick Turner.

I don't know if LV has seen it, but Christopher Hitchens has. Hitchens is
an ultra-leftist, so when he says Farenheit 9/11 is bull****, it should
tell you something. Choke on this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

I would never sum up Micheal Moore as being 100% correct.
But he sure ain't 100% wrong, like you infer, and the film clearly illustrates
what he was saying lend weight to his alternative viewpoint to the rabid far
right,
who are hell bent on making obscene profits, and have the little people
pay for the war, and die in their war, so the oil profits will flow.
If there wasn't any oil in Iraq, the invasion would never have happened, even
if Saddam
did have a few WMDs, and even if he was twice the arsole to his people that he
was.

The above supposedly left wing commentator you refer me to
does not have me chokin and quakin.
Too many holes in the arguments, and I won't bore everyone by spending
3 days and 100,000 words to describe why.
And I simply don't know all the answers.

But the film says a lot, and because time is limited, left out a lot,
but it paints Dubbya as being a simpleton, a village idiot, and merely a
figurehead
for the right wing and daddy's friends.
Dubbya would seem to struggle to run a chook raffle properly.

Bill Clinton was interviewed here on tele last monday, and they repeated the
interview
tonight because of the huge number here who demanded a re-run of this priceless
interview.
Ppl want to hear what he has to say, because the man is coherent,
has very sensible opinions, and is a leader, and all that despite some romping
in the
Oval Office. At least he wasn't embezzling the nation's finances.
As I see it, many folks are wishing he was still president. But the press and
the fools
can only remember Monica.

I couldn't imagine a jerk like Bush ever being able to speak any real sense
in any candid interview, and I fear all you'd get would be nonsense like what
you'd get from a
cowboy with IQ = 100.
He needs to have every syllable spoon fed to him as he reads.
There are so few folks who respect him. They fear and loathe him.
He was caught napping while Osama alegedly planned and carried out his attack.

You'd think the great US of A with all of its mighty resources
would have caught up with Osama by now, but Dubbya had Iraq and oil weath on
his mind,
so he eased up on Osama, and maybe he'll get away with it.
Maybe he's sittin nice and cosy with his family relations in Saudi Arabia,
where George's friends live and who have all those oil billions invested in the
US economy.
But even if they caught Osama just before the Nov2 election, the arab world
would still be as resentful as ever, and the terrorists would keep on coming.
700 million arabs see Osama as a hero, because he dared to
strike back at the US. Personally, I think they are all wrong, and they'd
achieve
far more life improvements if they persued peaceful civil disobedience, instead
of
bombing us every day. Both sides seem blind to the possibilities,
and both act treacherously following agreements.

BTW, Osama should indeed be considered innocent until proven guilty.
This way of doing things is the fairest way for all, and it is the friendly
hallmark of our
enlightened justice system, and you appreciate if there is a knock on the door
from the police one evening. You wouldn't like to be hauled off to a dungeon
and tortured for
a crime you didn't commit, and one you couldn't raise a defense against,
but that what happens in so many other countries.
It does look likely Osama would be found guilty of mass murder, like Saddam,
but justice in both your country and mine is not based on a presumption of
guilt
prior to a trial. We have to be sure of of guilt.
The trials are supposed to bring out the truth, and should we ever jail or
execute anyone who is innocent,
it makes us murderers, and indeed there have been many cases of dudes on death
row
who have been found innocent, most recently by means of DNA testing.

Meanwhile Afghanistan is a right mess especially after the intervention by
russia, then the US.
The Taliban were not defeated, and away from the main cities,
life is the same grind its been for 10,000 years, but the poppies get harvested
as usual
to ruin more lives.

I don't think Dubbya is finished yet, and he might invade and conquer a few
more
arab nations if he gets re-elected, and terrorism will get the boost we didn't
want.
The US might disrupt much of the arab lands, and at a huge expense we can't
afford,
and even if the US stole all the arab investments, and stole all the oil,
there is still the only the same amount of oil and people to consume it, and
pay for it,
and none of us are actually better off, except the rich folks at the top, who
already have too much.
But we could trust the US to sell what they win in wars at ruinous prices.
I don't see any bonanzas, just screams, and pools of blood, and huge bills,
and torrents of BS.

But I hate to think if Nth Korea gives an atom bomb to some enterprising
terrorists
fed up with the US bombing the **** out of their home towns, and stealing
resources.
And if Dubbya does a pre-emptive strike against NK's nuclear arsonals, I hate
to think where that would lead.

Maybe we'll all have to bend down,
and kiss our arses goodbye.


Patrick Turner.



--
Greg

Greg Pierce wrote:

I don't know if LV has seen it, but Christopher Hitchens has. Hitchens is
an ultra-leftist, so when he says Farenheit 9/11 is bull****, it should
tell you something. Choke on this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

You should have said "Hitchens WAS a one-time liberal, who sold out and
became just another f%*&%^*g neocon".

http://www.counterpunch.org/chomskyhitch.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/lucas0528.html

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3...308&s=cockburn

http://www.etherzone.com/2004/raim061604.shtml

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2824

Bob Weiss N2IXK

John wrote...

He is just playing off of the extreme left nut jobs who
are ****ed about not being in the white house.

This is typical of the smear tactics being used to
attempt to marginalize anyone who is not a neo-con.
If not being a neo-con makes me an "extreme left
nut job", I'm quite happy to be described in those terms.

If Kerry was in office what would these fruit
cakes complain about then?

Issues of interest to the country - just like is happening
now. But I don't think there will be as much complaining
as there will be attempts to reduce the incredible and
unprecedented levels of polarization the Bush "I'm
a uniter, not a divider" administration has produced.

Moore is a profiteer nothing more.

Profiteer is defined as "One who makes excessive
profits on goods in short supply" according to the
American Heritage Dictionary 4th Edition. Wait a
minute though...

Hmm... you may be right. Since you and others who
think the way you do seem to suffer from shortages of
independent thought, intellectual curiosity, subtlety,
nuance, and reasoned thinking - I concede. You
might just be right!

His movie is fictional account

See below. Be prepared to prove it's fictional.

that made a lot of money from a particular
demographic.

What demographic is that? You mean people
like Dale Earnhart, NASCAR driver who took
his entire crew to see the movie? You mean the
Marines stationed at 29 Palms, CA that went to
see it? You mean people in Irvine, CA- in the
heart of VERY conservative Orange County -
where a Regal Cinema theater was initially not
even going to show the film, but under pressure
from the community then offered 12 showings a
day? You mean the people in Plano, TX like the
man who wrote this letter:

"Mr. Moo

.... I live in Collin County, Texas, which is the
Plano/North Dallas area. Collin County was once
dubbed "possibly the most Republican county in
the country" by The Dallas Morning News. This
morning I attended the first screening of Fahrenheit
at the Angelika Theatre in Plano and although I
arrived early, the showing was almost sold out.
The movie truly was a roller coaster of emotions
moving so quickly on several occasions from
humorous Mr. Bush moments, to reactions of
people about 9/11 or images of injured Iraqis, and
American soldiers. By the end of the movie you
received a standing ovation for your film."

Just what "particular" demographic do you mean?
NASCAR fans? Military personnel? Wealthy
Californians from heavily Republican counties?
People from North Dallas, what?

Though I don't agree with the far left whatsoever,
(I consider myself a moderate conservative),

Is describing people who don't agree with you as
"nut jobs" and "fruit cakes" part of your set of
moderate beliefs?

it's not that every single argument the left makes is
without merit. This movie, purporting to have truth
and being so false, really does a disservice to that
side and any Dems who associate with it.

Tell us then, in substance and detail please, what it is
that's false about the movie. Don't tell us about you not
agreeing with the authors point of view, or how he
edited the film to reflect his point of view. Tell us what's
FALSE about it, what is untrue about what was shown...

BTW, have you seen the movie yourself?

Jim McShane
Need Tubes? Got a H-K Citation (Pre) Amp?
Check http://pages.prodigy.net/jimmcshane
Repro knobs for Citation gear in stock!

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:52:21 +0000, the highly esteemed Gregg enlightened
us with these pearls of wisdom:

Long time no talk to Greg!

I thought the heat would eventually attract my other namesakes ;-)

I have to drop in every now and then to shake the joint up...

--
Greg

John wrote:

Perhaps Michael Moore is really one of Bush's constituents, after all,
look at how much better off he is with Bush in office . He is just
playing off of the extreme left nut jobs who are ****ed about not
being in the white house. If Kerry was in office what would these
fruit cakes complain about then? Moore is a profiteer nothing more.
His movie is fictional account that made a lot of money from a
particular demographic. Though I don't agree with the far left
whatsoever, (I consider myself a moderate conservative), it's not that
every single argument the left makes is without merit. This movie,
purporting to have truth and being so false, really does a disservice
to that side and any Dems who associate with it. Clinton wouldn't
touch this flick if he was running. So, does Michael Moore secretly
hope Bush will win?

Bob Dylan also did OK with his protest songs in the 1960s.
he sung well for all those against the Vietnam war, which was an enormous
and unnecessary tragedy which continues to leave a trail of mutant childern from
the agent orange, and deaths and maiming from landmines.
Do we remember what he made out it?
Are we jealous like you?
Or do we remember his protest against the idiotic war mongering the US
propogated beyond its shores at the time?

I'd concern yourself with what Moore says, rather than try
to concoct yet another conspiricay plot.

If you can make a movie which could convince us all that Moore is wrong, then make it,
there isn't a moment to lose.

Patrick Turner.

I don't know if LV has seen it, but Christopher Hitchens has. Hitchens is
an ultra-leftist, so when he says Farenheit 9/11 is bull****, it should
tell you something. Choke on this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

--
Greg



From: Steve )
Subject: Unfairenheit 9/11 By Christopher Hitchens
View: Complete Thread (6 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.fan.michael-moore
Date: 2004-06-28 15:28:14 PST


So, to summarize Mr. Hitchens article:
- Mr. Hitchens feels that the left is clamoring for their own ‘Rush
Limbahl'.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that Micheal Moore was unjustified in expressing
his belief that rule of law should be used when dealing with
terrorists and terrorist threats.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that the Saudi's demand that we move our bases
from S.A. proves that they had no relationship and influence on the
administration.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that Moore's position against invading Afganistan
and his opinion that when we did we used far too few troops are
somehow in conflict.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that Moore assertion that a more likely and
consistant objective was the furthering of a pipeline agreement is not
possible because a multi-national Nato force now controls Afganistan.
- Mr. Hitchens believes that letting the Saudi elite leave the country
two day's after a bunch of their citizens attack our country is
acceptable. Even when many of these elite's are family of the
individual who calimed responsibility for the attacks. He feels this
way because a subsequent investigation couldn't find any evidence that
would indicate a need to detain them.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that Bush only appeared to be on vacation..
Hitchens is unaware of the press articles criticle of Bush on this and
believes that Moore dreamed this issue up himself. Blairs presence on
one of the vacation pictures proves that it was a ‘business trip'.
- Hitchens feels that Moore is responsible for Bush appearing to be
un-presidential.
- Hitchens agree's that Bush's immediate reaction to the event's of
9/11 was ‘stunned and useless', but thinks that Moore would have
critized any reaction from Bush.
- Hitchens feels that Moore's movie should have also condemed a Gore
Vidal's assertion that FDR collusion over Pearl Harbor.
- Hitchens feels that Moore's depiction of Iraqi citizens humanizes
them too much.
- Hitchen's is frustrated because he cannot label Moore as a pacifist.
- Hitchens feels that if Moore concentrated more on the evil Baath
sponsered war crimes he's be able to accepts the civilian casualties
incurred.
- Hitchens feels that Moore's description of Iraq as a country that
had never attacked or killed or threatened the United States is
ignorant and misleading. He feels this way because: Iraqu is a hideout
for terrorists and it sponsers suicide bombers in Isreal and since
Americans visit Isreal this constitutes such a threat. Westerners
resided in Kuwait during Iraq's invasion. Iraq attempted to assasinate
Bush Sr. Many other incidents during and following ‘desert storm'
constitute such a threat. Iraq harbored one of the original WTC
bombers. Iraq is anti-semitic. Iraq was attempting to buy missle
systems from north Korea.
- Hitchens feels that Moore ignores all of these justifications for
the invasion.
- Hitchens feels that Moore is contradictory by discounting these
reasons for invasion while contending that Bush ignored the potential
of a domestic Alqida attack.
- Hitchens feels that Moore has contrived the ‘fear' theory.
- Hitchens believes that Moore's criticism of the underfunding of
state patrol is inconsistent with his criticism of infringement on
civil liberties.
- Hitchens seems to believe that what Moore sees as absurdities in the
approach to homeland security is in conflict with his desire that it
be done better. That these positions are somehow in conflict.
- Hitchens feels that if there were really close ties between the Bush
family and the Saudi's then the Saudi's would have joined the
coalition.
- Hitches doesn't really understand what it is that Moore is trying to
say.
- Hitches believes that the revelations of the film are trite and
obvious: ‘capatilism', ‘military-industrial complet', ‘spin',
‘exploitation of the poor', ‘explotiation of blacks'.
- Hitches feels that Moore's position against the war renders his
opinion that the war was carried out with too few troops to be
invalid. Hitch believes that a draft would have been necessary to
produce the troops required to catch Binlauden and that Moore would
have complained about that as well.
- Hitches believes that Moore dishonered the passengers that fought
against the hijackers by his beliefs that blacks are disproportionally
encouraged to join the military.
- Hitches believes that Moore is a ‘simple and shady man'.
- Hitches believes that any investigations into the allegations raised
in this film would be ‘beside the point'.
- Hitches feels that he prevailed at ‘Telluride' and would like to do
it again.
- Hitches feels that he is a much better producer of ‘documentaries'
than Moore and gives all kinds of additional technical advice and
criticism of writing, production and style issues that have little to
do with the content or message of the movie.

Behold, John signalled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

Moore is a profiteer nothing more.

If that is so, I can think of *safer* ways for him to profit, than one
that could get him sent to Guatanamo for inciting dissent or assassinated
by the USSS.

--
Gregg t3h g33k
"Ratings are for transistors....tubes have guidelines"
http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Lord Valve wrote in message ...
You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing
a far different tune when your cities go up in smoke.

I'll give you five years at the outside. Five more years
for you to spew your ridiculous leftwing anti-American
propaganda before you crawl with your hat in hand
and plead for assistance against the Islamic menace
you're currently ignoring.

**** you and the code you rode in on, son. If you
think Fahrenheit 911 is true, you probably also
think OB1 Kenobie is going to help you use the
Force against your enemies.

You've been had in a major way, asshole.

Lord Valve
American



Patrick Turner wrote:
(crap)

Lord,I mean Lord Valve:

If you really don't believe that Fahrenheit 911 contains a good
amount of accurate, negative truths about Bush - and many of those
around him (no I don't mean EVERYTHING - but a good deal), then you
truly are a dimwitted idiot!!

Kafer77

In article ,
Pete Snyder wrote:
Lord Valve wrote in message ...
You're a stupid ****er, Turner. Really. You'll sing
a far different tune when your cities go up in smoke.

...... snip more gibberish....


Lord Valve, may I ask, did your car mechanic, of Muslim persuasion, do a crap
job when fixing your car recently ?job when fixing your car??

- cheers

What I got from that movie pertaining to Afghanistan was that Bush was
not really serious about capturing the Taliban or Osama bin Laden. He
sent in too few troops too late. I don't see a contradiction at all.

My prediction: Osama bin Laden will be caught within a month of the
election, say on October 15 or 20. I wouldn't be surprised if he was
already in custody somewhere. Look at the news of the Pakistanis
capturing high level terrorists. It was reported three weeks ago that
the Bush administration was pressuring Pakistan to deliver something
during the Democratic National Convention. Viola! Several days after
the capture, they timed the announcement to coincide with it.

I am in the military. I served in a NATO/UN peacekeeping mission in
the Balkans. (One, BTW, led by the US with massive support from NATO
and other countries, and the UN. Why couldn't that happen in Iraq? Oh
yeah. We told them to go to hell and that we didn't need them.
Oooops!) I saw, first hand, what the politics of division and
nationalism can do when carried out to the extreme.

Do you know what the first news out of the White House was that I
heard after deplaning back in the USA? It was not about record-level
deficits, nor millions with no health care coverage, nor a shaky
economy with jobs going overseas, nor about insurgents in Iraq. It was
that we needed a Constitutional ban on gay marriage.

I'm not gay. But I know some gays. I've even served with some (no, not
in OUR army. We're one of the few armies of the free world that don't
allow that.) So I'm not afraid of them, as so many in the US seem to
be. It becomes apparent that gays will now serve the same purpose in
the US that blacks once did, and Communists, and women, and before
them American Indians: a source of division and a way to keep people
from looking at what's really going on. As the Wizard of Oz once said,
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" You were supposed to
only watch the smoke and mirrors out front. Children's books so often
have nuggets of truth in them.

I think Moore could've pointed out many more lies than he did.
Rumsfeld and Bush, for example, saying we didn't need more troops in
Iraq. We had, as I recall, about 105,000 there at the time. So they
extended the tours of soldiers already there, who should've been done
and sent home. They canceled retirements and postponed enlistment
contracts from expiring. If you look, there are about 135,000 there
now. But we didn't need more. That would sound bad! Or the numerous
attempts by this administration to stifle free speech. And on and on.

This is a dangerous crew, in my opinion. We have an Attorney General
who's been shot down in Federal District Court at least twice (that
I'm personally aware of) for overstepping his job boundaries and
trampling on rights. And don't get me going on the Patriot Act.

Another thing that scares me is the continuous narrowing of the
seperation between church and state. Many of the framers of the
Constitution were extremely devout Christians. (Read McCulloch's
biography of John Adams, for example.) But even so, they knew the
danger of mixing politics and religion. The US has always been a
melting pot, of cultures and ideas and religions. This is one reason,
I believe, we are as great as we are. Pretty soon, it will only
reflect the views of the radical right wing of Christianity. You'd
better climb on board, or else!

And I frankly don't see any real difference between the mentality of
Islamic fundmentalists in Iraq or Saudi Arabia, and the Christian
fundmentalists that are gaining power here. Two pieces of the same
whole cloth.

So I'll stop. The Patriot act allows the government to trace this
post, find out who I am, and punish me for speaking out. I believe
that under that act I could be classified a terrorist for saying
things like this.

I've voted Republican in every presidential election since I became
old enough to vote. But not this time. No way.

Sign me,

Just as American as Lord Valve (but perhaps a little less
self-righteous...)

(Don) wrote in message news:EXGLc.136719$a24.107446@attbi_s03...
I don't know if LV has seen it, but Christopher Hitchens has. Hitchens is
an ultra-leftist, so when he says Farenheit 9/11 is bull****, it should
tell you something. Choke on this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

--
Greg



From: Steve )
Subject: Unfairenheit 9/11 By Christopher Hitchens
View: Complete Thread (6 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.fan.michael-moore
Date: 2004-06-28 15:28:14 PST


So, to summarize Mr. Hitchens article:
- Mr. Hitchens feels that the left is clamoring for their own ?Rush
Limbahl'.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that Micheal Moore was unjustified in expressing
his belief that rule of law should be used when dealing with
terrorists and terrorist threats.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that the Saudi's demand that we move our bases
from S.A. proves that they had no relationship and influence on the
administration.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that Moore's position against invading Afganistan
and his opinion that when we did we used far too few troops are
somehow in conflict.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that Moore assertion that a more likely and
consistant objective was the furthering of a pipeline agreement is not
possible because a multi-national Nato force now controls Afganistan.
- Mr. Hitchens believes that letting the Saudi elite leave the country
two day's after a bunch of their citizens attack our country is
acceptable. Even when many of these elite's are family of the
individual who calimed responsibility for the attacks. He feels this
way because a subsequent investigation couldn't find any evidence that
would indicate a need to detain them.
- Mr. Hitchens feels that Bush only appeared to be on vacation..
Hitchens is unaware of the press articles criticle of Bush on this and
believes that Moore dreamed this issue up himself. Blairs presence on
one of the vacation pictures proves that it was a ?business trip'.
- Hitchens feels that Moore is responsible for Bush appearing to be
un-presidential.
- Hitchens agree's that Bush's immediate reaction to the event's of
9/11 was ?stunned and useless', but thinks that Moore would have
critized any reaction from Bush.
- Hitchens feels that Moore's movie should have also condemed a Gore
Vidal's assertion that FDR collusion over Pearl Harbor.
- Hitchens feels that Moore's depiction of Iraqi citizens humanizes
them too much.
- Hitchen's is frustrated because he cannot label Moore as a pacifist.
- Hitchens feels that if Moore concentrated more on the evil Baath
sponsered war crimes he's be able to accepts the civilian casualties
incurred.
- Hitchens feels that Moore's description of Iraq as a country that
had never attacked or killed or threatened the United States is
ignorant and misleading. He feels this way because: Iraqu is a hideout
for terrorists and it sponsers suicide bombers in Isreal and since
Americans visit Isreal this constitutes such a threat. Westerners
resided in Kuwait during Iraq's invasion. Iraq attempted to assasinate
Bush Sr. Many other incidents during and following ?desert storm'
constitute such a threat. Iraq harbored one of the original WTC
bombers. Iraq is anti-semitic. Iraq was attempting to buy missle
systems from north Korea.
- Hitchens feels that Moore ignores all of these justifications for
the invasion.
- Hitchens feels that Moore is contradictory by discounting these
reasons for invasion while contending that Bush ignored the potential
of a domestic Alqida attack.
- Hitchens feels that Moore has contrived the ?fear' theory.
- Hitchens believes that Moore's criticism of the underfunding of
state patrol is inconsistent with his criticism of infringement on
civil liberties.
- Hitchens seems to believe that what Moore sees as absurdities in the
approach to homeland security is in conflict with his desire that it
be done better. That these positions are somehow in conflict.
- Hitchens feels that if there were really close ties between the Bush
family and the Saudi's then the Saudi's would have joined the
coalition.
- Hitches doesn't really understand what it is that Moore is trying to
say.
- Hitches believes that the revelations of the film are trite and
obvious: ?capatilism', ?military-industrial complet', ?spin',
?exploitation of the poor', ?explotiation of blacks'.
- Hitches feels that Moore's position against the war renders his
opinion that the war was carried out with too few troops to be
invalid. Hitch believes that a draft would have been necessary to
produce the troops required to catch Binlauden and that Moore would
have complained about that as well.
- Hitches believes that Moore dishonered the passengers that fought
against the hijackers by his beliefs that blacks are disproportionally
encouraged to join the military.
- Hitches believes that Moore is a ?simple and shady man'.
- Hitches believes that any investigations into the allegations raised
in this film would be ?beside the point'.
- Hitches feels that he prevailed at ?Telluride' and would like to do
it again.
- Hitches feels that he is a much better producer of ?documentaries'
than Moore and gives all kinds of additional technical advice and
criticism of writing, production and style issues that have little to
do with the content or message of the movie.

Im Glad i started this Debate. It has been on the top ten list in
rec.audio.tubes for several weeks.
See the Movie and It will make you think again. You will see in the
movie what im trying to say.....Remember America is Like DisneyLand only
We The People can Dream and Make America the Way We Want it. The Way the
Citizens want it.... - Brian Bower, Las Vegas Nevada.