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#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
All,
I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround speakers. This is mainly a music system. I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which sits against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on side walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers? Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the listening position. Thanks for any advice. Tom |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
On Dec 18, 3:20*pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All, I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround speakers. *This is mainly a music system. I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and how to orient/mount them. *The main listening position is a couch which sits against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. *Mounting on side walls is not an option. *Should I be considering in-wall speakers? Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the listening position. Thanks for any advice. Tom Tom: A BUNCH of questions: a) Why do you want additional speakers? If it is just to fill the room with sound, perhaps the main speakers are inadequate (although the KEF seems to specify just fine)? b) What are you going to use to synthesize the "surround" sound? Something as simple as the Hafler Circuit (*many* net references) or something else? If you simply run four speakers from the same amp, you will very likely need a switch box as the KEFs have a nominal 4-ohm impedance, and many amps don't like very low impedances. c) if you are using a digital surround synthesizer, you will need an additional 2-channel amp - a signficant expense in addition to the speakers. Are you prepared for this? Now, some suggestions: If you just run 4 speakers and spread them apart, you run the chance of making mudpies vs. a clear soundstage. So, unless you have an unusual listening room or other peculiar conditions, I would NOT suggest this configuration unless the speakers are 'stacked' in the same X,Y & Z axes, with only vertical variations in the Y axis. At which point, one might ask why one would consider this in the first place. A Hafler circuit is fun to play with - and there are most-of-the-time Dynaco QD-1 or QD-2 adaptors on the Net all the time. This puts it all in a box for you with conveniently marked terminals and instructions. The instructions with these units *STRONGLY* suggest that the front and rear speakers be of very similar impedance and nature as they rely on the electrical characteristics of the speakers to be very nearly identical in order to function properly. Dynaco used their own speakers as models, for example. Digital delay systems are a whole 'nother' thing. In my time, I have experimented with the Advent & ADS systems. I have another system that I am playing with now. They are good-great fun to experiment with, and they can make impressive noise and give impressive effects. But, for the record, I am not so sure that they add all that much to the experience. Super *WOW* factor. But that is about it. Add to this the additional amplification needed, funny speaker-placement requirements, a lack of simplicity, constant adjustments based on the source-signal (a string quartet in a Stadium setting is just a bit peculiar) and other problems make them more of a PITA than a pleasure. But, it is worthwhile to investigate. Do some research on the Hafler Circuit, the Advent 500, the ADS digital Delay System and other more current systems including some of the several synthesized surround systems available today. Get an idea of what you are in for before you spend serious bucks. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
On Dec 18, 3:20*pm, "Tom Shults" wrote:
All, I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround speakers. *This is mainly a music system. I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and how to orient/mount them. *The main listening position is a couch which sits against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. *Mounting on side walls is not an option. *Should I be considering in-wall speakers? Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the listening position. Thanks for any advice. Tom If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers? There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub. Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as well? Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not worth the bother. Most of the time it sounds way worse than the original 2 channel. And most speakers that are light enough to be wall mounted are not nearly as good as the front floor speakers. In answer to your position question I would try to place the speakers so they do radiate to all listening positions. I would suggest placing them near the back corners angled down and toward the center of the room. Most wall mounts will allow you to move the speakers orientation around so you can experiment. If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well as a couple rear speakers. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
wrote in message
... On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote: All, I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround speakers. This is mainly a music system. I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which sits against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on side walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers? Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the listening position. Thanks for any advice. Tom If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers? There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub. Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as well? I'm sorry to disagree, but it is a matter of perspective...... Thousands of SACDs, hundreds of DVD-A's, many music DVD's, and...coming along...Blu-Ray Hi-Def lossless 5.1. Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not worth the bother. Most of the time it sounds way worse than the original 2 channel. And most speakers that are light enough to be wall mounted are not nearly as good as the front floor speakers. Surround works fine as a 4.0 for music. Almost all players allow you to redirect the center channel into left or right to have a normal stereo phantom center channel. In answer to your position question I would try to place the speakers so they do radiate to all listening positions. I would suggest placing them near the back corners angled down and toward the center of the room. Most wall mounts will allow you to move the speakers orientation around so you can experiment. Not optimal, but better than flat on the rear wall (unless dipole or bipole) If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well as a couple rear speakers. He said "music". You don't need an effects sub for music. A small sub to work in concert with small rear speakers might make some sense, though. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
I've tried a number of 'surround sound' systems over the last 40 years
and the only ones that made the sound better were specifically designed for SQ4 and the like, and it wasn't enough better to make me want to keep the system going. I've had a Hafler set-up a number of times, and included L-pads to control the volume of the rear speakers--but that is all long gone in preference to 2 channel stereo. One problem I foresee with your set-up is the seating area being too close to the wall. This is a trap for unwary players and often gives problems with imaging and makes a spacious sound very difficult. I know it's a pain, but my recommendation would be to try and re-arrange the room and get both the speakers and the listening position away from walls. Try a number of different arrangements. You might have a try at "live end--dead end" styles to see whether that gives you the sound you want. Lots of people like "near field" listening, too, although its not for me. Good luck. Greg |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
wrote in message
... On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote: All, I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround speakers. This is mainly a music system. I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which sits against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on side walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers? Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the listening position. Thanks for any advice. Tom If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers? There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub. Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as well? Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not worth the bother. Most of the time it sounds way worse than the original 2 channel. And most speakers that are light enough to be wall mounted are not nearly as good as the front floor speakers. In answer to your position question I would try to place the speakers so they do radiate to all listening positions. I would suggest placing them near the back corners angled down and toward the center of the room. Most wall mounts will allow you to move the speakers orientation around so you can experiment. If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well as a couple rear speakers. Thanks to all who responded (on-list and off-list) to my inquiry about surround speaker placement. It sounds like it really would be better to place the speakers to the side of my listening position, so I am sorry that is not an option. I will either get dipole speakers, or make sure I get mounts that can be angled toward the listening position. I was not very clear in my initial note that I already have an extra stereo amplifier that I can use to drive the surround speakers. My Anthem preamp processor has a few synthesized music modes that I wish to use, in addition to getting surround for my occasional movie use. Presently, I am just going to get some cheap surround speakers to see if I like the Anthem music modes at all. Perhaps I will not. Anyway it will be a learning experience. Tom |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
"Tom Shults" wrote in message
... wrote in message snip I was not very clear in my initial note that I already have an extra stereo amplifier that I can use to drive the surround speakers. My Anthem preamp processor has a few synthesized music modes that I wish to use, in addition to getting surround for my occasional movie use. Presently, I am just going to get some cheap surround speakers to see if I like the Anthem music modes at all. Perhaps I will not. Anyway it will be a learning experience. Tom Tom, I can't speak for the Anthem, as I have never heard it's surround modes.....but I do use a Margules Dehlia multi-channel preamp which has built-in (switchable) analog matrix mode on its stereo inputs, and it is wonderful...I have it "on" for TV, for FM, for LP, for Tape, and for all my stereo digital (DAT, CD). I can switch directly between stereo this way and (on CD) stereo through my multichannel SACD player. I enjoy matrix mode more. Incidentally, on TV, when the signal is dolby encoded such as nowadays most sporting events, the matrix tends to give true surround. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
On Dec 19, 11:06*am, "Harry Lavo" wrote:
"Tom Shults" wrote in message ... wrote in message snip I was not very clear in my initial note that I already have an extra stereo amplifier that I can use to drive the surround speakers. *My Anthem preamp processor has a few synthesized music modes that I wish to use, in addition to getting surround for my occasional movie use. Presently, I am just going to get some cheap surround speakers to see if I like the Anthem music modes at all. *Perhaps I will not. *Anyway it will be a learning experience. Tom Tom, I can't speak for the Anthem, as I have never heard it's surround modes.....but I do use a Margules Dehlia multi-channel preamp which has built-in (switchable) analog matrix mode on its stereo inputs, and it is wonderful...I have it "on" for TV, for FM, for LP, for Tape, and for all my stereo digital (DAT, CD). *I can switch directly between stereo this way and (on CD) stereo through my multichannel SACD player. * I enjoy matrix mode more. Incidentally, on TV, when the signal is dolby encoded such as nowadays most sporting events, the matrix tends to give true surround.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Sound that has been mixed given consideration for the various analog methods of "upconverting" to multi-channel is "not bad". But very little regular stereo music content has been done this way. Most music is mixed to stereo intending to reproduce the effects of an audience sitting in front of a stage environment. Extrapolating some sort of "rear" component out of that is usually disappointing. Even more so if the additional speakers are smaller and not full range. I would say that anyone listening to analog derived multi-channel need only spend some time listening to real digitally encoded 5.1 surround. The difference is night and day. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
Sure there is content available in other than stereo formats but outside of
video soundtracks I'd wager it is easily less than .1 percent of what is available in stereo. I have a blueman group 5.1 music dvd that is pretty cool. But it's not something I listen to except for it's demonstration of the possibilities of music over 5.1. And it definitely NEEDS the sub. Wall mounted speakers are never going to hold a candle to his fronts as far as music content goes. I'm not convinced he really means music. If he really means just music he should be aware that to a lot of people it's not be worth the bother. And if he is really thinking video sound tracks then he should just go ahead and put togther a conventional 5.1 system. A response from the op confirming his true intentions would be helpful. "Harry Lavo" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote: All, I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround speakers. This is mainly a music system. I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which sits against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on side walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers? Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the listening position. Thanks for any advice. Tom If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers? There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub. Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as well? I'm sorry to disagree, but it is a matter of perspective...... Thousands of SACDs, hundreds of DVD-A's, many music DVD's, and...coming along...Blu-Ray Hi-Def lossless 5.1. Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not worth the bother. Most of the time it sounds way worse than the original 2 channel. And most speakers that are light enough to be wall mounted are not nearly as good as the front floor speakers. Surround works fine as a 4.0 for music. Almost all players allow you to redirect the center channel into left or right to have a normal stereo phantom center channel. In answer to your position question I would try to place the speakers so they do radiate to all listening positions. I would suggest placing them near the back corners angled down and toward the center of the room. Most wall mounts will allow you to move the speakers orientation around so you can experiment. Not optimal, but better than flat on the rear wall (unless dipole or bipole) If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well as a couple rear speakers. He said "music". You don't need an effects sub for music. A small sub to work in concert with small rear speakers might make some sense, though. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
Harry Lavo wrote:
wrote in message ... On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote: All, I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround speakers. This is mainly a music system. I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which sits against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on side walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers? Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the listening position. Thanks for any advice. Tom If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers? There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub. Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as well? I'm sorry to disagree, but it is a matter of perspective...... Thousands of SACDs, hundreds of DVD-A's, many music DVD's, and...coming along...Blu-Ray Hi-Def lossless 5.1. Not to mention at least four different 2channel-to-surround synthesis schemes now commonly found on AVRs, e.g., DPLII, Logic 7, DTS Neo, Neural THX... Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not worth the bother. No sure what 'analog surround conversion' is. If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well as a couple rear speakers. He said "music". You don't need an effects sub for music. A small sub to work in concert with small rear speakers might make some sense, though. A good subwoofer (or two ) isn't just for effects. It allows you to better optimize low frequency room response, than woofers permanently mounted below the other drivers. And a center channel gives you more latitude in terms of listening positions. THree channels was in fact the originally-determined optimum, back when home audio was first being seriously imagined. -- -S I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life -- Leo Tolstoy |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
wrote in message
... On Dec 19, 11:06 am, "Harry Lavo" wrote: "Tom Shults" wrote in message ... wrote in message snip I was not very clear in my initial note that I already have an extra stereo amplifier that I can use to drive the surround speakers. My Anthem preamp processor has a few synthesized music modes that I wish to use, in addition to getting surround for my occasional movie use. Presently, I am just going to get some cheap surround speakers to see if I like the Anthem music modes at all. Perhaps I will not. Anyway it will be a learning experience. Tom Tom, I can't speak for the Anthem, as I have never heard it's surround modes.....but I do use a Margules Dehlia multi-channel preamp which has built-in (switchable) analog matrix mode on its stereo inputs, and it is wonderful...I have it "on" for TV, for FM, for LP, for Tape, and for all my stereo digital (DAT, CD). I can switch directly between stereo this way and (on CD) stereo through my multichannel SACD player. I enjoy matrix mode more. Incidentally, on TV, when the signal is dolby encoded such as nowadays most sporting events, the matrix tends to give true surround.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Sound that has been mixed given consideration for the various analog methods of "upconverting" to multi-channel is "not bad". But very little regular stereo music content has been done this way. Most music is mixed to stereo intending to reproduce the effects of an audience sitting in front of a stage environment. Extrapolating some sort of "rear" component out of that is usually disappointing. Even more so if the additional speakers are smaller and not full range. I would say that anyone listening to analog derived multi-channel need only spend some time listening to real digitally encoded 5.1 surround. The difference is night and day. I simply cannot agree. I have a large SACD/DVD-A collection and am hooked on multichannel. But I still prefer matrix to stereo on almost all music, including studio recordings of pop stuff. For one thing, the matrix separates out the studio ambiance from the direct feed, so you get some sense of space if there is any on the recording; for another many instruments are recorded all or via leakage somewhat out of phase and this shifts their position. And failing any of that, the matrix creates a derived ambiance that still broadens and sweetens the sound. |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Surround speaker mounting
"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
... Harry Lavo wrote: wrote in message ... On Dec 18, 3:20 pm, "Tom Shults" wrote: All, I have a two channel audio system (KEF 104.2 speakers, Nelson Pass power amp, Anthem D1 processor) that I would like to augment with 2 surround speakers. This is mainly a music system. I am uncertain about what kind of surround speakers I should consider and how to orient/mount them. The main listening position is a couch which sits against the wall the speakers will need to be mounted on. Mounting on side walls is not an option. Should I be considering in-wall speakers? Alternately, if I purchase small box speakers, can I really just hang them on the wall facing forward, or do they need to be oriented toward the listening position. Thanks for any advice. Tom If this is mainly a music system why do you want surround speakers? There is not a lot of straight music content available in surround sound. And surround is 5.1 so you really need 3 speakers and a sub. Are you looking to use your music system as a dvd sound system as well? I'm sorry to disagree, but it is a matter of perspective...... Thousands of SACDs, hundreds of DVD-A's, many music DVD's, and...coming along...Blu-Ray Hi-Def lossless 5.1. Not to mention at least four different 2channel-to-surround synthesis schemes now commonly found on AVRs, e.g., DPLII, Logic 7, DTS Neo, Neural THX... Yep Stereo source run through analog surround conversion usually is not worth the bother. No sure what 'analog surround conversion' is. He's talking Dynaco/McCormick, (and my Margules) where the matrixing is done outside the digital realm...whether simply or with some sophistication. If you are looking to use your stereo for surround sound dvds then I suggest you get a surround sound processor, a three channel amp, and a sub with a plate amp in it. Then get a center channel speaker as well as a couple rear speakers. He said "music". You don't need an effects sub for music. A small sub to work in concert with small rear speakers might make some sense, though. A good subwoofer (or two ) isn't just for effects. It allows you to better optimize low frequency room response, than woofers permanently mounted below the other drivers. Agree, that's why I suggested a small sub for the rear speakers. But he has full range front speakers, and the suggestion was that he needed a full 5.1 system....in which case the "sub" is essentially an effects-sub. And a center channel gives you more latitude in terms of listening positions. THree channels was in fact the originally-determined optimum, back when home audio was first being seriously imagined. No question, a 5 channel system is better. But if you don't have room...or simply don't want to disrupt your current setup you can use 4. And 4 is less of a problem for music than it is for movies where centered sound is paramount. |
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