[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:15:08 -0400, Les Cargill
wrote:

So, why is one "90 degrees", but not the other?


Is it because a pressure mic versus a pressure *gradient*
(e.g., velocity) mic represents a differentiation? In
that case, d(sin(x))/dt = cos(x) - a 90 degree shift.
(Or d(cos(x))/dt = -sin(x))

Oh OK. Very cool. So it's just because it's defined as
relative to pressure? I can almost live with that. And
Life's almost worth living again.

Speaking of life, good night! I'll be clearer in a few hours.
(Or, realistically, not especially...)

Much thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:48:22 -0400, H. Khalil wrote
(in article
):

On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote:

Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a few
it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo.
Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out.

Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got
the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It
has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon.

Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how
it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio
samples so you can help me decide :-)

Cheers!


I have both mics here. On my Martin I prefer the Schoeps, but you're after
something to alter the sound of your guitar. I'm pretty happy with mine.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:55:04 -0400, nebulax wrote
(in article
):

On Jul 21, 1:59 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
H. Khalil wrote:
On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote:

Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a
few
it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo.
Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out.

Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got
the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It
has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon.

Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how
it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio
samples so you can help me decide :-)

You just ordered it sight-unseen, without actually listening to it? That
is _always_ a mistake.
--scott


I agree, but it can be challenging to find a place to try out mics
before buying, as well. If it's something common like a Sennheiser
421, you can go down to a music megastore and demo it on the spot, or
even rent it from a local PA company, but something more exotic like a
ribbon would be much harder to come across. There are companies in big
recording towns like Nashville and LA who will rent you all manner of
exotic studio mics, but the expense of doing that might outweigh the
benefits after some point.

-Neb

But the 421 II sounds nothing like a 421 and they don't make the 421 anymore.
Are you seeing the 421 for sale? That'd be a grab!

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 03:18:23 -0400, Soundhaspriority wrote
(in article ):

wrote in message


This is amazingly clear and very helpful.

My residual confusions about why this doesn't have a complimentary
parallel in the pressure case will need to await some snooze time
and thought. I'm just a very literal, rock-on-the-end-of-a-spring guy.

I am well-known for writing "amazingly clear" explanations of how audio
works.

It's a mystery to me why my recordings are so ****ing bad. I know much more
about how audio works than any of you poorly-educated cretins.

become coprophagus and perish, buzzard.

Ty Ford





--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[hank alrich]

Paul Stamler wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

You need to go try some. All three are good but all three are different.
I tend to grab the M160 first, but Paul Stamler tends to grab the M260
first.

Which is because I happen to *have" an M260, while I hope to own an M160 one
of these days after I get done paying for other things.

They are remarkably different mics, based on my pairs of each. The M160
is a "higher quality" mic, smoother and a bit sweeter to me (whatever
that **** means); the M260 has a little edge, a little bite that isn't
painful in most situations, that works well with some sources.

For one vocalist I work with the M260 works as if it cost a couple
grand. In other situations it's not transparent enough, too intrusive. I
think some of this is due to its output transformer.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Matthew B. Tepper]

OUT of rec.music.classical.recordings.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

This has become an enlightening and thought-provoking thread! When I
brought up the pressure vs. velocity phase differential, I should have
offered a simple explanation of just what it is. Taking the train back to
the station, here is what must be understood: Before there is movement of
an element, there must be pressure upon it. As it begins to move, the
pressure subsides and its speed increases. Think of a sine wave where
pressure is greatest at the zero crossing. Pressure is zero at the top of
the waveform and velocity is greatest. So, velocity always *follows*
pressure by 90 degrees.

Why is this important? Many folks use more than one mic on an instrument.
If they are inherently out of phase, there will be consequences that can't
be corrected by placement or phase switches.

The few of you who are seeking a deeper understanding will enjoy reading
Howard M. Tremaine's 1757 page "Audio Cyclopedia, Second Edition". It is
long out of print, but used copies are out there. They aren't cheap. If
your local library has one, have a look. I think of it as the Bible of
Audio Knowledge.

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 22 Jul 2008 15:40:16 GMT, Roy W. Rising
wrote:

This has become an enlightening and thought-provoking thread! When I
brought up the pressure vs. velocity phase differential, I should have
offered a simple explanation of just what it is. Taking the train back to
the station, here is what must be understood: Before there is movement of
an element, there must be pressure upon it. As it begins to move, the
pressure subsides and its speed increases. Think of a sine wave where
pressure is greatest at the zero crossing. Pressure is zero at the top of
the waveform and velocity is greatest. So, velocity always *follows*
pressure by 90 degrees.

Thank you. That is perfectly clear, even to me, which is saying
a lot!

Why is this important? Many folks use more than one mic on an instrument.
If they are inherently out of phase, there will be consequences that can't
be corrected by placement or phase switches.

Surely different locations in space would swamp this? (except
within a single microphone). It's a quarter wavelength, so can
we figure from there?

The few of you who are seeking a deeper understanding will enjoy reading
Howard M. Tremaine's 1757 page "Audio Cyclopedia, Second Edition". It is
long out of print, but used copies are out there. They aren't cheap. If
your local library has one, have a look. I think of it as the Bible of
Audio Knowledge.

Okay, okay, I give! Folks are always recommending this, but I've
never seen it. I'll try to get the library to import a copy, and
I'll be in PDX over Labor Day and can bug Powell's too. Very expensive
on Amazon, fersure - not impossibly though.


Much thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

[Les Cargill]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:15:08 -0400, Les Cargill
wrote:

So, why is one "90 degrees", but not the other?

Is it because a pressure mic versus a pressure *gradient*
(e.g., velocity) mic represents a differentiation? In
that case, d(sin(x))/dt = cos(x) - a 90 degree shift.
(Or d(cos(x))/dt = -sin(x))

Oh OK. Very cool. So it's just because it's defined as
relative to pressure?

Welll.... relative to each other. But since it's called
a "pressure gradient" mic, I can live with "pressure" being
the "base" model.

I can almost live with that. And
Life's almost worth living again.


Nah. It's always worth living.


Speaking of life, good night! I'll be clearer in a few hours.
(Or, realistically, not especially...)

Much thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

--
Les Cargill

[Paul Stamler]

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message
...

Okay, okay, I give! Folks are always recommending this, but I've
never seen it. I'll try to get the library to import a copy, and
I'll be in PDX over Labor Day and can bug Powell's too. Very expensive
on Amazon, fersure - not impossibly though.

Usually www.abebooks.com is cheaper than Amazon's used books.

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On 22 Jul 2008 15:40:16 GMT, Roy W. Rising
wrote:

The few of you who are seeking a deeper understanding will enjoy reading
Howard M. Tremaine's 1757 page "Audio Cyclopedia, Second Edition". It is
long out of print, but used copies are out there. They aren't cheap. If
your local library has one, have a look. I think of it as the Bible of
Audio Knowledge.

Okay, okay, I give! Folks are always recommending this, but I've
never seen it.

The book is so good that you don't have to be an EE or physicist to
partake of its information. Information is presented accessibly and
comprehensively, to the point that even a dumbass guitar player can make
good use of it. i pretty much built onion audio, with the help of more
informed friends, using that book for acoustical and other guidance.

If you are unable to locate one and would settle for a loaner to scan,
holler.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On 22 Jul 2008 15:40:16 GMT, Roy W. Rising
wrote:

This has become an enlightening and thought-provoking thread! When I
brought up the pressure vs. velocity phase differential, I should have
offered a simple explanation of just what it is. Taking the train back
to the station, here is what must be understood: Before there is
movement of an element, there must be pressure upon it. As it begins to
move, the pressure subsides and its speed increases. Think of a sine
wave where pressure is greatest at the zero crossing. Pressure is zero
at the top of the waveform and velocity is greatest. So, velocity
always *follows* pressure by 90 degrees.

Thank you. That is perfectly clear, even to me, which is saying
a lot!

Why is this important? Many folks use more than one mic on an
instrument. If they are inherently out of phase, there will be
consequences that can't be corrected by placement or phase switches.

Surely different locations in space would swamp this? (except
within a single microphone). It's a quarter wavelength, so can
we figure from there?

Moving the mic by a quarter wavelength works only for a single frequency
(and its harmonics). *All* the other frequencies remain corrupted. It's
called Acoustical Phase Distortion and led to the "three to one" rule
whereby we avoid placing two mics that might pick up the same source less
than three times as far apart than they are from the source, assuming they
are to be mixed.

[snip]

Much thanks, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

(hank alrich) wrote:
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On 22 Jul 2008 15:40:16 GMT, Roy W. Rising
wrote:

The few of you who are seeking a deeper understanding will enjoy
reading Howard M. Tremaine's 1757 page "Audio Cyclopedia, Second
Edition". It is long out of print, but used copies are out there.
They aren't cheap. If your local library has one, have a look. I
think of it as the Bible of Audio Knowledge.

Okay, okay, I give! Folks are always recommending this, but I've
never seen it.

The book is so good that you don't have to be an EE or physicist to
partake of its information. Information is presented accessibly and
comprehensively, to the point that even a dumbass guitar player can make
good use of it. i pretty much built onion audio, with the help of more
informed friends, using that book for acoustical and other guidance.

If you are unable to locate one and would settle for a loaner to scan,
holler.

Hank ~ That is a very generous offer. I have another idea. You could scan
all 1757 pages and circulate them in an encoded format to avoid copyright
problems. Then you could sell the key for a few bucks to compensate for
the weeks (months?) spent scanning! ;-)

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[hank alrich]

Roy W. Rising wrote:

(hank alrich) wrote:
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On 22 Jul 2008 15:40:16 GMT, Roy W. Rising
wrote:

The few of you who are seeking a deeper understanding will enjoy
reading Howard M. Tremaine's 1757 page "Audio Cyclopedia, Second
Edition". It is long out of print, but used copies are out there.
They aren't cheap. If your local library has one, have a look. I
think of it as the Bible of Audio Knowledge.

Okay, okay, I give! Folks are always recommending this, but I've
never seen it.

The book is so good that you don't have to be an EE or physicist to
partake of its information. Information is presented accessibly and
comprehensively, to the point that even a dumbass guitar player can make
good use of it. i pretty much built onion audio, with the help of more
informed friends, using that book for acoustical and other guidance.

If you are unable to locate one and would settle for a loaner to scan,
holler.

Hank ~ That is a very generous offer. I have another idea. You could scan
all 1757 pages and circulate them in an encoded format to avoid copyright
problems. Then you could sell the key for a few bucks to compensate for
the weeks (months?) spent scanning! ;-)

LOL! Maybe Chris'd only want a few l'il thangs outta it... g

It ain't in print, and whatever the legal ground, the moral ground gets
shaky the either it's being offered and the author's family can get
some dough, or it ain't and we should be able to learn from it.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:37:34 -0500, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Roy W. Rising wrote:

Hank ~ That is a very generous offer. I have another idea. You could scan
all 1757 pages and circulate them in an encoded format to avoid copyright
problems. Then you could sell the key for a few bucks to compensate for
the weeks (months?) spent scanning! ;-)

LOL! Maybe Chris'd only want a few l'il thangs outta it... g

Nah, I'm gonna hold ye to the lawyerly letter of the lawn.
(You can use my lawmower, but only here on my law.)

As judge and jury, I commit you to sitting tight until I
can somehow manage to meet up with ye. Scanning textbooks is
optional. Case dismissed with prejudice. Maybe I could be
a stalker or something? Advice of the victim is requested.


It ain't in print, and whatever the legal ground, the moral ground gets
shaky the either it's being offered and the author's family can get
some dough, or it ain't and we should be able to learn from it.

Me same-same. I buy tools (like books) whenever possible, but
see a staged Shakespeare without compulsing about performance rights.
OTOH, I try to err on the side of the angels, if I can figure
out what that means.


Anyway, thanks.

You da man, as always,
Chris Hornbeck

[Eric B]

Dear H
You might want to consider omnis.
Among the inherent problems with directional mics is that they are
boomy when positioned too close due to the proximity effect and
increasingly thin and colored at more ambient distances, due to off
axis phase distortion. Omnis don't have these problems, especially
small diaphgram omnis. A lot of people are afraid of them. Omnis work
better in a good sounding room, but since they have no proximity
effect you can move in closer with good results and good seperation.
Someone once said to me that a cardioid is just a broken omni.
Ribbons might be better than the Shoeps (which are very good mics).
The reputation is that the transition into the higher frequencies is
smoother with ribbons. They tend to have very low sensitivity, so you
will need a good quiet preamp with 60dB+ of gain. The MIO can do this,
I think.
Ribbons are usually a figure of 8 pickup pattern so you have to be
aware of the 180 degree off axis arrivals. Sometimes this out of phase
room sound sounds good, sometimes not. If not you have to be prepared
to reduce these arrivals physically, or aim the back somewhere else.
Which of these Beyer models is best- I don't know. Listen.
If you have questions please feel free to contact me. I like talking
about recording acoustic instruments. It's fun.
Eric Blackmer Blackmer Sound (.com)