[David F. Cox]

I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher uses
a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at the
front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near
the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger to
the hearing of those too close to the stage.

I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of
the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to
feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to
the teachers mouth.

Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be
no feedback problem?

That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of
the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing
closer?

Any good sites explaining proper safe setting up?

Thanks in advance,

David F. Cox

[rboy]

On Jul 26, 5:26*pm, "David F. Cox"
wrote:

I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of
the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to
feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to
the teachers mouth.

Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be
no feedback problem?

That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of
the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing
closer?


David, it's always a crapshoot trying to use a single pair of speakers
to fill a room with music loud enough to make you feel like dancing
and not kill the people close to them. And it being dual use means
you have to compromise. You're correct that a headband mounted mic is
less prone to feedback, but it still can be an issue enough to cause a
problem if the speakers are set up in the worst possible place. The
trick is to find a good compromise, where they're away from the
closest dancers, not so close to the teacher that it kills him or
feeds back, while filling the room with sound. Maybe spreading the
speakers way off to the sides will be enough. Put them anywhere
where dancers don't get too close. Not sure about having them at the
back on the stage, though. The sound might take several odd
transformations (curtains, 50 foot stage ceiling, etc) on the way out
to the dance floor if they're too far back.

And as far as mounting them higher, yep, that's why whenever you see a
wedding band with a single pair of loudspeakers they put them on
tripods.

There are a few positioning options to try. Most are taking 4 steps
forward and one back, but that's the nature of the beast. : ) You
may find the best solution, if the music needs to be loud and it's a
big, packed room, is to run another pair of speakers in the back of
the room and then you can have less volume coming out of either pair
by themselves.

[Paul Stamler]

"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...
I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher
uses
a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at
the
front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near
the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger to
the hearing of those too close to the stage.

I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back
of
the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to
feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close
to
the teachers mouth.

Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be
no feedback problem?

To some extent, yes, if the teacher knows what s/he is doing. But it still
can be an issue.

Placing the speakers on higher stands, in front of the stage, is more
successful; they fire over the heads of the people in front. Another
solution, of course, is to use four speakers, two in front, two in back or
halfway down the hall. But that gets into muddle from delay issues, and it's
two more to set up and power.

That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back
of
the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing
closer?

Perhaps, but if the speakers are loud then there may be feedback problems.

Any good sites explaining proper safe setting up?

Get, read and digest the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.

Peace,
Paul

[Richard Crowley]

"David F. Cox" wrote in ...
I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher
uses a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right
at the front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers
near the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a
danger to the hearing of those too close to the stage.

I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back
of the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due
to feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very
close to the teachers mouth.

Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be
no feedback problem?

The possibility of feedback always increases when the microphone(s)
are active within the coverage area of the speaker(s). Makes no
difference whether the mic(s) are wireless. Working an open mic
in front of the speakers is never a good solution.

Having the microphone very close to the talker's mouth DOES
decrease the possibility of feedback, but not completely.

That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back
of the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing
closer?

Not really a very good solution to your presenting symptoms.
Moving the speakers up stage will decrease the sound levels in
the back of the hall proportionally to the reduction at the front
of the hall.

Better if they used an additional set (or two) of speakers to
more evenly cover the dance floor without blasting the people
closest to the one set of speakers.

[Edi Zubovic[_2_]]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:26:09 GMT, "David F. Cox"
wrote:

I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher uses
a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at the
front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near
the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger to
the hearing of those too close to the stage.

I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back of
the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due to
feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close to
the teachers mouth.

Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should be
no feedback problem?

That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back of
the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing
closer?

Any good sites explaining proper safe setting up?

Thanks in advance,

David F. Cox

-- If this can be if any help, I remember when I ran a discotheque in
the nearby hotel (and that has been realy long ago), I had chosen a
four loudspeaker setup, wall overhead mounted, at some 2 meters
height. The front loudspeakers were flush mounted to the dancing floor
and the rear ones were spaced a meter or two more but tilted somewhat
to the center of the dancing floor. The dancing floor and thus the
sound field of interest was rectangular. The floor and walls of the
discotheque was permanently lined with carpets. Thus the dancing area
has been well covered by the sound while wall reflections were nil. Of
course, I didnt' have to worry about microphone feedback but later I
had an interesting issue with the phono pickup feedback, first I had 4
Jensen Model 24 loudspeakers which were just right to the task but
later there were replaced by quite bigger, Jensen Model 25 ones. Now,
they proved to be less optimal as they produced lower bass, which was
less noticeable but they also introduced phono cartridge feedback due
to vibration! (the turntables were placed on a thick wood board but
should have been mounted on permanent concrete or brick pillars,
though).

As to the microphone feedback which might occur, it depends on how
loud the music is firstly. It is really not important that the dancing
music should be so loud as in discotheques of _today_. It is always a
bad practice to constantly crank up the volume during the night as
the ears normally adapt to the loud sounds and are costantly asking
for more. This shouldn't be allowed. I am almost certain that nobody
would ask for more if the sound level is set at a confortable level of
some 85 -- 90 dB and kept so. As to the wireless microphones, placed
close to the mouth, I think that they are less prone to feedback (if
made well) as they can be made less sensitive and the membranes are
much smaller.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

[Alan Rutlidge]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message
...

article , "David F. Cox"
wrote:
I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing.

What kind of gay **** are you involved in, "David Cox"?

Haahahahahahaha

http://robertmorein.blogspot.com/


"I don't really have a replacement career, it's a very gnawing thing."

Robert Morein
Dresher, PA
(310) 237-6511
(215) 646-4894



Get a life you cross posting ****head.
If you have a beef with David F Cox, keep your posting to the original
NG(s).
Don't post your **** here.
Get the message?

[Richard Corfield[_3_]]

On 2008-07-27, Paul Stamler wrote:

Placing the speakers on higher stands, in front of the stage, is more
successful; they fire over the heads of the people in front. Another
solution, of course, is to use four speakers, two in front, two in back or
halfway down the hall. But that gets into muddle from delay issues, and it's
two more to set up and power.

Dance classes and events I've been involved in have used both these
techniques - speakers on stands at the front, or speakers on all 4
corners facing in. No need for stereo image in this stuff!

We've also done good dance sessions in a village hall type space with a
boom box. With people keen on dance you don't need much volume. It
depends on the audience. Modern Jive may be noisier than ballroom
though and volume on some dances can help.

- Richard

[David F. Cox]

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...
I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing. Commonly the lesson is given from a stage. The teacher
uses
a wireless mic. Commonly the speakers are placed on the stage, right at
the
front. To my ear the sound is too loud to be comfortable for dancers near
the stage, The rooms are often packed. In my view there may be a danger
to
the hearing of those too close to the stage.

I have suggested that the speakers be mounted high up and/or at the back
of
the stage. I am told they cannot be placed at the back of the stage due
to
feedback in the wireless mics, which are headband mounted and very close
to
the teachers mouth.

Am I right in believing that using the right wireless mics there should
be
no feedback problem?

To some extent, yes, if the teacher knows what s/he is doing. But it still
can be an issue.

Placing the speakers on higher stands, in front of the stage, is more
successful; they fire over the heads of the people in front. Another
solution, of course, is to use four speakers, two in front, two in back or
halfway down the hall. But that gets into muddle from delay issues, and
it's
two more to set up and power.

That moving the speakers back will scarcely affect the volume at the back
of
the room, but will be much more comfortable and safer for those dancing
closer?

Perhaps, but if the speakers are loud then there may be feedback problems.

Any good sites explaining proper safe setting up?

Get, read and digest the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.

Peace,
Paul

Thanks for all of your responses.*

I see that there is a DVD video update of the book at around $30. It seems
to me that this could be a good investment for the company to pass around
its DJs.

Buying dozens more sets of speakers that have to be wired up around the
halls is not a likely option.

Speakers near the front of stage on tripods, possibly facing slightly
outwards, seems to be the best cheap compromise. I suspect some of the DJs
do not use trpodes from laziness.

From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I remember
seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even distribution
of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers
slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory?

David F. Cox
* Even the gay jibe gives me an excuse to spam the group

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JQs4yZqqRss

Some of us suffer for our art.

[Mike Rivers]

David F. Cox wrote:

From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I remember
seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even distribution
of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers
slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory?

If you're seeing a vertical dispersion pattern that's not symmetrical
around a line pointing out from the speaker, and has more energy going
downwards than upwards, then yes. Modern speaker manufacturers are
trying to aim the energy downward to reduce the amount that bounces off
the ceiling. This is why it's common to put such speakers up on stands
so nobody is standing directly in front of them. If you put then at ear
level and tilt them upward, you'll be putting the blast pretty much
straight out and right into the ears of those nearby.

The idea of getting speakers up in the air is that with the speaker at
the apex of a triangle with the two sides reaching the front and back of
the listening area, those two sides will be roughly equal in length, and
therefore will carry about the same amount of energy. You still want the
speakers up front, so you'll never reach the ideal case of an isosceles
triangle but they closer you come, the more even the energy distribution
is, assuming that the radiation pattern of the speaker is fairly even
over the angle at the apex.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[David F. Cox]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
newse0jk.217$rb5.56@trnddc04...
David F. Cox wrote:

From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I
remember seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even
distribution of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point
the speakers slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish
theory?

If you're seeing a vertical dispersion pattern that's not symmetrical
around a line pointing out from the speaker, and has more energy going
downwards than upwards, then yes. Modern speaker manufacturers are trying
to aim the energy downward to reduce the amount that bounces off the
ceiling. This is why it's common to put such speakers up on stands so
nobody is standing directly in front of them. If you put then at ear level
and tilt them upward, you'll be putting the blast pretty much straight out
and right into the ears of those nearby.

The idea of getting speakers up in the air is that with the speaker at the
apex of a triangle with the two sides reaching the front and back of the
listening area, those two sides will be roughly equal in length, and
therefore will carry about the same amount of energy. You still want the
speakers up front, so you'll never reach the ideal case of an isosceles
triangle but they closer you come, the more even the energy distribution
is, assuming that the radiation pattern of the speaker is fairly even over
the angle at the apex.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me
he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

Thanks. It appears that I should have had more faith in the speaker
designers.

David

[Trevor Wilson[_2_]]

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message
...

"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message
...

article , "David F. Cox"
wrote:
I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing.

What kind of gay **** are you involved in, "David Cox"?

Haahahahahahaha

http://robertmorein.blogspot.com/


"I don't really have a replacement career, it's a very gnawing thing."

Robert Morein
Dresher, PA
(310) 237-6511
(215) 646-4894



Get a life you cross posting ****head.
If you have a beef with David F Cox, keep your posting to the original
NG(s).
Don't post your **** here.
Get the message?

**You need to ignore McCarty, not encourage him.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[roughplanet]

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message
...

"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message
...

article , "David F. Cox"
wrote:

I attend modern jive dance classes. The format is a lesson followed by
general dancing.

What kind of gay **** are you involved in, "David Cox"?

Haahahahahahaha

http://robertmorein.blogspot.com/

"I don't really have a replacement career, it's a very gnawing thing."
Robert Morein
Dresher, PA
(310) 237-6511
(215) 646-4894

Get a life you cross posting ****head.
If you have a beef with David F Cox, keep your posting to the original
NG(s). Don't post your **** here.
Get the message?

**You need to ignore McCarty, not encourage him.

Absolutely. He's been quite active of late, so just let his posts fall in a
heap, a bit like Bwian himself :-).

ruff

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Paul Stamler]

"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...

Speakers near the front of stage on tripods, possibly facing slightly
outwards, seems to be the best cheap compromise. I suspect some of the DJs
do not use trpodes from laziness.

You don't really want the speakers facing outwards; instead, you want them
fairly far apart and facing inwards. That minimizes wall reflections, a good
thing.

Laziness may be part of it, and money, but there's also the issue of
speakers on tripods being knocked over, and lawsuits. That's another reason
to space them far apart, away from the dancers. (By the way, when you hook
up cable to a tripod-mounted speaker, run the cable to the bottom of the
tripod, then up, winding it a couple of times around the column, before
plugging into the connector on the speaker. This way, if someone yanks the
cable, it pulls the bottom of the tripod rather than the top, which is much
less likely to cause toppling.)

From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I
remember
seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even
distribution
of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers
slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory?

Possibly, but if there's a low ceiling you may just exacerbate reflection
problems. When there are more room reflections, there's more muddle, and the
instructor's voice is less intelligible. This is one of those places where
you need to experiment and see what works in a particular room, but always
err on the side of keeping sound *off* the walls.

Peace,
Paul

[Edi Zubovic[_2_]]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:09:19 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:
------------------------8------------------------------------

Laziness may be part of it, and money, but there's also the issue of
speakers on tripods being knocked over, and lawsuits. That's another reason
to space them far apart, away from the dancers. (By the way, when you hook
up cable to a tripod-mounted speaker, run the cable to the bottom of the
tripod, then up, winding it a couple of times around the column, before
plugging into the connector on the speaker. This way, if someone yanks the
cable, it pulls the bottom of the tripod rather than the top, which is much
less likely to cause toppling.)

Yes one has to be careful with mounting gear. See this -- I find it
not funny and I'm sorry for the guy. It is really a typical no-no
microphone stand position at dance events. This is the second accident
of this kind I've seen on Youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SndGtCnDFrg

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
---------------------------------------8--------------------

[David F. Cox]

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...

Speakers near the front of stage on tripods, possibly facing slightly
outwards, seems to be the best cheap compromise. I suspect some of the
DJs
do not use trpodes from laziness.

You don't really want the speakers facing outwards; instead, you want them
fairly far apart and facing inwards. That minimizes wall reflections, a
good
thing.

Laziness may be part of it, and money, but there's also the issue of
speakers on tripods being knocked over, and lawsuits. That's another
reason
to space them far apart, away from the dancers. (By the way, when you hook
up cable to a tripod-mounted speaker, run the cable to the bottom of the
tripod, then up, winding it a couple of times around the column, before
plugging into the connector on the speaker. This way, if someone yanks the
cable, it pulls the bottom of the tripod rather than the top, which is
much
less likely to cause toppling.)

From polar diagrams of speaker volume vs distance and angle that I
remember
seeing it seems to me that the best way of getting a more even
distribution
of sound front to back from speakers at one end is to point the speakers
slightly upwards. Is there any merit in this amatuerish theory?

Possibly, but if there's a low ceiling you may just exacerbate reflection
problems. When there are more room reflections, there's more muddle, and
the
instructor's voice is less intelligible. This is one of those places where
you need to experiment and see what works in a particular room, but always
err on the side of keeping sound *off* the walls.

Peace,
Paul

Thanks.

I have never seen the speakers mounted so as to be a danger to dancers.
Killing the customers seems to be frowned upon. The tip about the winding
the cable around the bottom sounds good in general.

David F. Cox

[Paul Stamler]

"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...

I have never seen the speakers mounted so as to be a danger to dancers.
Killing the customers seems to be frowned upon. The tip about the winding
the cable around the bottom sounds good in general.

It works on mic stands too. There the issue usually isn't killing the
customers, but rather killing the microphone.

Peace,
Paul

[David F. Cox]

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...

I have never seen the speakers mounted so as to be a danger to dancers.
Killing the customers seems to be frowned upon. The tip about the
winding
the cable around the bottom sounds good in general.

It works on mic stands too. There the issue usually isn't killing the
customers, but rather killing the microphone.

Peace,
Paul


There are times when you want the microphone to die ...

-----

One of the worst two seconds of my life was seeing a three year old run away
from mom during setting-up for a song contest. She caught in a cable and
pulled a tripod mounted speaker off a small podium towards her. Luckily a
leg came off the podium and it twisted away from her.It did one of the guys
pursuing her that caught it no good at all. They could not have saved her if
it had continued its initial trajectory.