[voxguy]

Hi, I have two DAT decks out for cleaning/repair and have been using
what we thought was a
relatively good-condition recently serviced machine (an old SV DA-10)
both for playback of
DATs recorded in the past 1-2 years...as well as new tracking (using
as analog backup for
digital sessions).

Upon insertion of just about every previously recorded DAT, after a
FFD/RWD packing and start
from the beginning, after engaging play, deck will intermittently lose
the A-time readout - or it drops
in and out...as does playback audio...and in other cases will go into
Cleaning mode for the duration
of play mode with PB distortion hash accompanying. Used Cleaning DAT
a couple of times but
didn't resolve the issue.

Tracking on new/clean dat so far seems to be okay on playback. Using
DDS1s, Maxell 90s and BASF DDS1 90s. Is this machine likely

Confused at the lack of clean PB/ digital recognition 'loss' with the
previously recorded material vs.
newly recorded stuff. So far at least one snapped/eaten tape
encountered.

These tapes have been encased/stored properly and machine has had very
little usage - in many years.

Any advice appreciated,

MikeE

[Mike Rivers]

voxguy wrote:

Upon insertion of just about every previously recorded DAT, after a
FFD/RWD packing and start
from the beginning, after engaging play, deck will intermittently lose
the A-time readout - or it drops
in and out...as does playback audio...

Many DAT recordings are no longer playable without a whole lot of care
and rescue. If these are really important, I'd suggest looking around
for a tape recovery specialist who has DAT experience and spend the
bucks to get them transferred. This sort of job requires opening up the
recorder and fine-tuning the tension and alignment to the tape, and it
may be necessary to transfer it in sections and then edit the pieces
together. Needless to say, it ain't gonna come cheap, and also needless
to say, you probably aren't equipped to open up your player and start
tweaking it yourself.

If it's just curiosity driving you to play these recordings, put the
tapes back in the drawer and find something else to do.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Scott Dorsey]

voxguy wrote:
Upon insertion of just about every previously recorded DAT, after a
FFD/RWD packing and start
from the beginning, after engaging play, deck will intermittently lose
the A-time readout - or it drops
in and out...as does playback audio...and in other cases will go into
Cleaning mode for the duration
of play mode with PB distortion hash accompanying. Used Cleaning DAT
a couple of times but
didn't resolve the issue.

Tracking on new/clean dat so far seems to be okay on playback. Using
DDS1s, Maxell 90s and BASF DDS1 90s. Is this machine likely

Confused at the lack of clean PB/ digital recognition 'loss' with the
previously recorded material vs.
newly recorded stuff. So far at least one snapped/eaten tape
encountered.

The machine is mechanically misaligned. It can record, but it is putting
the tracks in the wrong place. When you play it back, it's fine, but if
you play back on another machine with the tracks in the RIGHT place, it
pitches erros.

Likewise, tapes made on this machine won't play back on other machines, I
suspect.

These tapes have been encased/stored properly and machine has had very
little usage - in many years.

Any advice appreciated,

Get the machine aligned. Re-align it once a year. If possible, get the
tech to come and do it on-site because with some of these machines (especially
the consumer models), they get knocked right out of alignment in shipping.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[voxguy]

On Jul 7, 7:25 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
voxguy wrote:
Upon insertion of just about every previously recorded DAT, after a
FFD/RWD packing and start
from the beginning, after engaging play, deck will intermittently lose
the A-time readout - or it drops
in and out...as does playback audio...and in other cases will go into
Cleaning mode for the duration
of play mode with PB distortion hash accompanying. Used Cleaning DAT
a couple of times but
didn't resolve the issue.

Tracking on new/clean dat so far seems to be okay on playback. Using
DDS1s, Maxell 90s and BASF DDS1 90s. Is this machine likely

Confused at the lack of clean PB/ digital recognition 'loss' with the
previously recorded material vs.
newly recorded stuff. So far at least one snapped/eaten tape
encountered.

The machine is mechanically misaligned. It can record, but it is putting
the tracks in the wrong place. When you play it back, it's fine, but if
you play back on another machine with the tracks in the RIGHT place, it
pitches erros.

Likewise, tapes made on this machine won't play back on other machines, I
suspect.

These tapes have been encased/stored properly and machine has had very
little usage - in many years.

Any advice appreciated,

Get the machine aligned. Re-align it once a year. If possible, get the
tech to come and do it on-site because with some of these machines (especially
the consumer models), they get knocked right out of alignment in shipping.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hmm. I have stuff that studios gave me DAT backups for from sessions
in like, 2002-2003... i gather a
whole lot of flaws were revealed in this format since the last time i
paid attention to tech news about this
medium(?)

Starting to question whether i should've even bothered shipping two
3700s out to be serviced. In the late 90s
through 2003-2004 I saved/archived hours of stuff to DAT...most
recorded on one of these two particular decks --

Should i anticipate problems with PB of any of my DATs after the decks
they were recorded on have been aligned/
cleaned? As i seem to recall, i was able to seamlessly playback DATs
recorded in either machine interchangeably
without issue. Sorry to drag it out but i'm curious... have DATs
been found to lose integrity or otherwise have a much
shorter shelf-life than was originally thought when this medium was
the standard (in my radio daze we certainly relied
heavily on em and i definitely know of stations still relying on them
for backups). Again, just curious.


Any event, Thanks for these replies.... 'seems like only
yesterday...." i was using DAT tapes pretty consistently with no issue
from
one machine to another.......time flies and all that crap.

[voxguy]

On Jul 7, 7:25 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
voxguy wrote:
Upon insertion of just about every previously recorded DAT, after a
FFD/RWD packing and start
from the beginning, after engaging play, deck will intermittently lose
the A-time readout - or it drops
in and out...as does playback audio...and in other cases will go into
Cleaning mode for the duration
of play mode with PB distortion hash accompanying. Used Cleaning DAT
a couple of times but
didn't resolve the issue.

Tracking on new/clean dat so far seems to be okay on playback. Using
DDS1s, Maxell 90s and BASF DDS1 90s. Is this machine likely

Confused at the lack of clean PB/ digital recognition 'loss' with the
previously recorded material vs.
newly recorded stuff. So far at least one snapped/eaten tape
encountered.

The machine is mechanically misaligned. It can record, but it is putting
the tracks in the wrong place. When you play it back, it's fine, but if
you play back on another machine with the tracks in the RIGHT place, it
pitches erros.

Likewise, tapes made on this machine won't play back on other machines, I
suspect.

These tapes have been encased/stored properly and machine has had very
little usage - in many years.

Any advice appreciated,

Get the machine aligned. Re-align it once a year. If possible, get the
tech to come and do it on-site because with some of these machines (especially
the consumer models), they get knocked right out of alignment in shipping.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

ahh, wish i had somebody local for this....no dice. had to ship out
the decks to midwest digital in chicago... hopefully
they'll survive with some degree of alignment still intact -- tho i'm
starting to feel like i should sell em to them for parts now,
LOL)

[Scott Dorsey]

voxguy wrote:

Hmm. I have stuff that studios gave me DAT backups for from sessions
in like, 2002-2003... i gather a
whole lot of flaws were revealed in this format since the last time i
paid attention to tech news about this
medium(?)

It's fine. It just needs to be regularly aligned, just like any other
mechanical system. You align the analogue machine every morning, so
having to ship the DAT deck out for an annual alignment is nothing in
comparison. Especially considering the whole mechanical nightmare that
is the helical scan system.

Starting to question whether i should've even bothered shipping two
3700s out to be serviced. In the late 90s
through 2003-2004 I saved/archived hours of stuff to DAT...most
recorded on one of these two particular decks --

The SV-3700 has one of the best transports built. However, the converters
are just godawful, and the interfaces are nonstandard and do not actually
meet AES/EBU specifications. They will usually work with most AES/EBU devices
but not always.

Should i anticipate problems with PB of any of my DATs after the decks
they were recorded on have been aligned/
cleaned? As i seem to recall, i was able to seamlessly playback DATs
recorded in either machine interchangeably
without issue. Sorry to drag it out but i'm curious... have DATs
been found to lose integrity or otherwise have a much
shorter shelf-life than was originally thought when this medium was
the standard (in my radio daze we certainly relied
heavily on em and i definitely know of stations still relying on them
for backups). Again, just curious.

I have actually found DAT tapes to be surprisingly reliable, especially
considering they are a helical scan system. Out of the archives, I have
found far, far fewer bad tapes than I have found bad CD-Rs of the same era.

Any event, Thanks for these replies.... 'seems like only
yesterday...." i was using DAT tapes pretty consistently with no issue
from
one machine to another.......time flies and all that crap.

As long as you keep everything regularly aligned, you should have no
interchange issues with DAT. The problem is that folks let machines get
out of alignment and they drift, and the nature of digital systems is that
they can drift an awful lot without anybody noticing... until suddenly they
drift too much and it doesn't work at all.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[JaszyCat]

On Jul 10, 8:30*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
voxguy wrote:

Hmm. *I have stuff that studios gave me DAT backups for from sessions
in like, 2002-2003... *i gather a
whole lot of flaws were revealed in this format since the last time i
paid attention to tech news about this
medium(?)

It's fine. *It just needs to be regularly aligned, just like any other
mechanical system. *You align the analogue machine every morning, so
having to ship the DAT deck out for an annual alignment is nothing in
comparison. * Especially considering the whole mechanical nightmare that
is the helical scan system.

Starting to question whether i should've even bothered shipping two
3700s out to be serviced. In the late 90s
through 2003-2004 I saved/archived hours of stuff to DAT...most
recorded on one of these two particular decks --

The SV-3700 has one of the best transports built. *However, the converters
are just godawful, and the interfaces are nonstandard and do not actually
meet AES/EBU specifications. *They will usually work with most AES/EBU devices
but not always.

Should i anticipate problems with PB of any of my DATs after the decks
they were recorded on have been aligned/
cleaned? *As i seem to recall, i was able to seamlessly playback DATs
recorded in either machine interchangeably
without issue. * Sorry to drag it out but i'm curious... have DATs
been found to lose integrity or otherwise have a much
shorter shelf-life than was originally thought when this medium was
the standard (in my radio daze we certainly relied
heavily on em and i definitely know of stations still relying on them
for backups). *Again, just curious.

I have actually found DAT tapes to be surprisingly reliable, especially
considering they are a helical scan system. *Out of the archives, I have
found far, far fewer bad tapes than I have found bad CD-Rs of the same era.

Any event, Thanks for these replies.... 'seems like only
yesterday...." i was using DAT tapes pretty consistently with no issue
from
one machine to another.......time flies and all that crap.

As long as you keep everything regularly aligned, you should have no
interchange issues with DAT. *The problem is that folks let machines get
out of alignment and they drift, and the nature of digital systems is that
they can drift an awful lot without anybody noticing... until suddenly they
drift too much and it doesn't work at all.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

From a long history of servicing DAT and BETACAM "tape" machines,
alignment IS CRITICAL and MOST PERTINENT when servicing them is PINCH
ROLLER REPLACEMENT! Most servicers clean but do not replace the
rollers subsequently skewing tape and creating the illusion of
misalignment, when if pinch roller was replaced, many alignment issues
would not be a concern. When submitting a michine for service, INSISIT
on PINCH ROLLOER REPLACEMENT and all should be well, old and new tapes
included.

[Steve Maki[_2_]]

On 10 Jul 2008 09:30:57 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

The SV-3700 has one of the best transports built. However, the converters
are just godawful, and the interfaces are nonstandard and do not actually
meet AES/EBU specifications. They will usually work with most AES/EBU devices
but not always.

Scott,

If you needed a reliable DAT player for the simple task of getting material
off of hours and hours of tapes (recorded on many different machines), what
would you look for? There seems to be no shortage of models to choose from
on ebay.

I ran across a Roger Nichols rant http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_91-12.html
which convinces me that digital transfers to/from DAT can be a can of worms, so
I'd like a machine that had good analog out in addition to (relatively)
standard digital I/O and a reliable transport. Oh, and not one of the machines
still commanding $2000 type prices.

Thanks,

Steve Maki

[Scott Dorsey]

Steve Maki wrote:
On 10 Jul 2008 09:30:57 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

The SV-3700 has one of the best transports built. However, the converters
are just godawful, and the interfaces are nonstandard and do not actually
meet AES/EBU specifications. They will usually work with most AES/EBU devices
but not always.

If you needed a reliable DAT player for the simple task of getting material
off of hours and hours of tapes (recorded on many different machines), what
would you look for? There seems to be no shortage of models to choose from
on ebay.

Get something, then get it aligned and gone over by a good tech, then use it.

I am personally very partial to the Tascam DA-20 and the Fostex D-5 (basically
the same machine although the D-5 allows error reporting). They feel very
cheap, but they are actually extremely rugged and seem outlast the competition.
If they are properly set up, they are better at reading misaligned tapes than
most machines too.

Eddie Cilletti prefers the Sony PCM-R500, which is also one of the last
generation of machines made. It's also pretty solid.

I ran across a Roger Nichols rant http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_91-12.html
which convinces me that digital transfers to/from DAT can be a can of worms, so
I'd like a machine that had good analog out in addition to (relatively)
standard digital I/O and a reliable transport. Oh, and not one of the machines
still commanding $2000 type prices.

There's nothing wrong with digital transfers, and you will never have a bit
of problems with them as long as you avoid Panasonic machines. Panasonic
refused to obey the AES/EBU standard in several ways, opting instead to send
their representatives to the standards committee meetings where they demanded
the standard be changed. Do not use the SV-3700.

For the most part, SCMS is a non-issue in the modern world, although it
can be an issue if you want to make DAT-DAT dubs.

Nichols also makes a point about the 32 ksamp/sec standards... there are
two of them, and if you actually have tapes that use them, you need to make
sure you have a machine to play them that obeys the same standard. I have
never actually encountered this problem in the real world because the
32 ksamp/sec standards both sounded pretty awful and nobody in their right
mind ever used them.

His comment about the consumer format always having incorrect checksum is
also totally incorrect... the consumer format has no checksum at all, and
it uses those bits for other functions. This also is a non-issue... if
you have an interface that meets the standards (ie. not Panasonic) it all
works seamlessly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2008-07-10 (ScottDorsey) said:
There's nothing wrong with digital transfers, and you will never
have a bit of problems with them as long as you avoid Panasonic
machines. Panasonic refused to obey the AES/EBU standard in
several ways, opting instead to send their representatives to the
standards committee meetings where they demanded the standard be
changed. Do not use the SV-3700.
For the most part, SCMS is a non-issue in the modern world,
although it can be an issue if you want to make DAT-DAT dubs.
I found my sONy dtc-a6 played well with digital transfers
with the rest of the world, and most everybody else could
play my dat tapes with their decks, except for 3700's.
COUldn't get them to play nice when doing dat to dat
transfers digitally, and if I tried to play my SOny made
tapes on those machines I had problems.
Always a can of worms as back in my part of Iowa it seemed
like I saw more 3700's than anything else.





Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider


Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

[Eganmedia]

I have seen many instances of DATs recorded one one machine not being read by another. My guess is it's an alignment issue- whether it's the record deck or the playback I don't know. I have an old DA-30 whose tapes won't play in my SV3700. The 3700's tapes have some problems playing on the DA-30. Tapes made on my 3800 will play back on either of the other two decks, but it has trouble with some tapes made on both the 3700 and the DA-30. Go figure.

[Scott Dorsey]

Eganmedia wrote:

I have seen many instances of DATs recorded one one machine not being
read by another. My guess is it's an alignment issue- whether it's the
record deck or the playback I don't know. I have an old DA-30 whose
tapes won't play in my SV3700. The 3700's tapes have some problems
playing on the DA-30. Tapes made on my 3800 will play back on either of
the other two decks, but it has trouble with some tapes made on both the
3700 and the DA-30. Go figure.

This is what happens when you don't do regular alignment on all the decks.
If you don't keep up with the maintenance, the alignment drifts.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Steve Maki[_2_]]

On 10 Jul 2008 15:35:50 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

If you needed a reliable DAT player for the simple task of getting material
off of hours and hours of tapes (recorded on many different machines), what
would you look for? There seems to be no shortage of models to choose from
on ebay.

Get something, then get it aligned and gone over by a good tech, then use it.

I am personally very partial to the Tascam DA-20 and the Fostex D-5 (basically
the same machine although the D-5 allows error reporting). They feel very
cheap, but they are actually extremely rugged and seem outlast the competition.
If they are properly set up, they are better at reading misaligned tapes than
most machines too.

Eddie Cilletti prefers the Sony PCM-R500, which is also one of the last
generation of machines made. It's also pretty solid.

To be safe I picked up two machines - a DA-20MKII and a PCM-R500. Both seem in
mint condx and both play all the tapes I've tried so far, so I don't think
alignment is needed at this time. What gets (mis)aligned anyway? The guides?

Thanks for the advice...

--
Steve Maki

[Scott Dorsey]

Steve Maki wrote:

To be safe I picked up two machines - a DA-20MKII and a PCM-R500. Both seem in
mint condx and both play all the tapes I've tried so far, so I don't think
alignment is needed at this time. What gets (mis)aligned anyway? The guides?

There are dozens and dozens of alignment points on these things, from
guides to tensions to control track azimuth.

Get it aligned BEFORE you have problems, not afterward. Then get it aligned
once a year after that. In the digital world, you don't notice alignment
issues until they are so bad all hell breaks loose.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."