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#1
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Design My Speaker system
Well I should have never walked into that High End Electronic store
and ask to listen to some speakers! Them *******s made me listen to some $4000 Kef's and now I can't sleep at night! I lay awake thinking about selling my car to get the Kefs. So where I am at now is, I've blown my Speaker budget ceiling of $1000. And in a quest for the best my checkbook can afford, I've set a new limit of $3000 just for the speakers. I'll buy whatever receiver will work with my new Speakers. My goal is to listen to the best SaCD music and DVD-A I can. Music is more important to me, that watching DVDs on surround sound. That will just be an added bonus. I have heard some expensive Kefs and Boston Acoustics BT-1s and like the sound of both, which I can't afford. So what 6 speakers for $3000, would you buy, to listen to SaCD? |
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#3
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Design My Speaker system
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#4
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Design My Speaker system
Well I should have never walked into that High End Electronic store
and ask to listen to some speakers! Them *******s made me listen to some $4000 Kef's and now I can't sleep at night! I lay awake thinking about selling my car to get the Kefs. So where I am at now is, I've blown my Speaker budget ceiling of $1000. And in a quest for the best my checkbook can afford, I've set a new limit of $3000 just for the speakers. I'll buy whatever receiver will work with my new Speakers. My goal is to listen to the best SaCD music and DVD-A I can. Music is more important to me, that watching DVDs on surround sound. That will just be an added bonus. I have heard some expensive Kefs and Boston Acoustics BT-1s and like the sound of both, which I can't afford. So what 6 speakers for $3000, would you buy, to listen to SaCD? Easy. Magnepans. Something decent plus a sub. Figure $550 a pair for MMGs in the rear, a sub($800 or so for something fast) and a MMG type center. That should leave about enough for a pair of 12s in the front. Those new $300 a pair models also are tempting - $600 for center and surround and a subwoofer means you have $1600 or so for the main speakers. Me? I'd get the MMGs and a center - because 50hz is just about perfect for surround, while 80-100hz is a bit tougher as it is still somewhat directional. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/mg12.htm The 12 are almost as good as the 1.6 yet are kind of the forgotten stepchild of the line - so they are a great under $1000 set and can be haggled down to $900-$950. More if you are buying a full set - as they don't really sell that fast. Pair of MMG: $550 Pair of 12: $950(avg street price) Center of choice - the new $300 center is pretty decent, though only 100hz at the low-end and 16khz at the top. Or just get another pair of MMGs and got for a 6.1 setup. Pair MMGs(see Magnepan's site - note the dual speaker center channel setup): $550 Figure $2000 for the whole setup or better if bought as a "system" and you haggle some. That leaves $1000 for a good subwoofer and the ICBM module. Definately doable. |
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#5
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Design My Speaker system
Farrell8882 wrote:
From: My goal is to listen to the best SaCD music and DVD-A I can. Music is more important to me that watching DVDs on surround sound. I've set a new limit of $3000 just for the speakers. Buy two Kefs that cost $1500 each. So - I thought about it for a few minutes... If you are into stereo(which I personally recommend over the hype that is SACD and DVD-A), get two good full-range speakers. Now, full-range speakers are tough to find, actually at this price point, but doable. I'm talking about a 20-30hz low-end and no compromises. Me? I'd go planar or electrostatic. A single pair of stats or panels isn't going to be beat. Martin Logan makes a few good ones as well as their own planar speakers, and Magnepan makes planar speakers. SoundLab makes their own line too, as does Quad. Worry about surround later. Surrounds, even for this type of speaker can be added quite easily a piece at a time, but the main speakers are 90% of what you will hear and where 90% of the budget should go. http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/dynastat.htm Now, $4700 is retail - and these depreciate a lot used. http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....lan&1083029516 There's the full-range electrostatic version, used. $2600 for unbeleiveable sound. http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1083643695 I like these a bit better, though they only go to around 35hz. http://www.martinloganowners.com/ The best site online about all the models. http://www.martinloganowners.com/ph_reQuest.html This is my favorite, though. Full-range and beautiful looks. If I was looking at used planars, this would be near the top of my list. http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....lan&1081567788 looks like a decent pair. $2500 and no compromises in your sound. And lastly, Magnepan. The 3.6 used would also be a good choice. *** Of the above systems, though, the best choice would likely be the soundlabs. At $2600, if they are in decent condition, it's a great deal. |
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#6
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Design My Speaker system
"Truestorys" wrote in message
news:dY54c.10139$Gm5.23245@attbi_s04... Well I should have never walked into that High End Electronic store and ask to listen to some speakers! Them *******s made me listen to some $4000 Kef's and now I can't sleep at night! I lay awake thinking about selling my car to get the Kefs. Welcome to the club. That's probably how most of us got hooked. (Either that or with dad's KLH 9's and a Scott receiver :-) *snip* So what 6 speakers for $3000, would you buy, to listen to SaCD? From a bang for the buck standpoint, I don't think you can do better than Paradigm and for $3,000, you can get 3 pair of Studio 20s (small stand-mounted monitors) and have enough leftover for a nice sub-woofer, perhaps the Paradigm PW2200. If you go the pre-owned rout, you can probably even get the Servo-15, among the very best subs available, and stay within budget. |
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#7
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Design My Speaker system
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#8
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Design My Speaker system
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#9
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Design My Speaker system
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#10
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Design My Speaker system
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 04:26:01 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
wrote: wrote: As a side note, we used to sell lot's of Bose 901's based on the advertising in the trade rags. People would buy them without even listening to them. I would say that 95 percent or more of those people returned them within a week because they hated them. (No highs, no lows, must be Bose was the line we used to say) I can't help but wonder why it was necessary to insert this bit of revisionist history. Because it's not revisionist history, it's the truth. Bose 901s sold on their sound, not their advertising. Stores used to use them to demo other equipment, or to lure customers into a listening room. Jaws would drop and checkbooks would appear. They were legendary for their dynamics and HUGE sound. Gordon Holt said in his Stereophile review that they made all other speakers sound trivial. Hah! Well, with all due respect to Gordon Holt, I was one of the people selling them back then and I can tell you for a fact, that people would read the rags and all the nice advertisements about how Bose drivers were made with injection molded baskets etc and they would come in and buy them without even listening, or if they did listen it was a casual session because their minds were made up already. If they happened to be listening to the Bose during one of Bose's road shows they were getting duped because the tapes and electronics were customized heavily to make the speakers sound spectacular. We used to have a plexiglass model of one in the shop so people could see the innards of the thing. As for the no highs no lows poem, I recall Pecar Electronics in Detroit placing some 901s on top of Electrovoice Patricians, the ones with the 30 inch woofers, and playing them to make people think they were listening to the Pats. I know, they don't go THAT low, but your little ditty isn't true either. Depends upon who is listening to them. I knew of a little high end audio store in NYC that had a wall of speakers hooked to a comparator and it was virtually impossible to tell what speaker was playing without walking up and looking at the cone moving. Not the best way to audition speakers, but they were short on floor space at the time. Floor space is no longer a problem for them as the store is J&R Music World. Not many people know that their roots were in selling high end audio. They used to sell the Ohm F's and the ESS speakers with the Heil transformer. As for someone returning them, it is probably true that if you sold a pair to someone who hadn't a clue how to set them up or use them, then they wouldn't perform as designed. Probably not the only speaker to suffer this fate... But in the right room they were hard or impossible to beat. I carefully compared them to some Ohm-Fs and some Magneplanars in one store, and the 901s sounded better, for 1/3 the price or so. If they sound good to *you* that's all that matters. I can tell you for a fact that they ranked amongst the most returned items we had in the shop. Maybe that particular series was not as good as the newer ones, I don't know but we had an awful lot of exchanges. The shop I worked at catered to clientele that for the most part wanted their systems delivered and set up for them which we offered as a service to them. I am still using my 901s, in combination with subwoofers and surround sound, and have found nothing yet to replace them. Then don't because it would be foolish to replace something you like. If you are happy with them fine, but I don't particularly like the sound of them and having worked in the industry selling them, albeit a much older series, I can only speak from my experiences which I have listed above. Bose is a genius at marketing. The Wave Radio is a perfect example. I used to use 802's (the professional version of 901) with a jazz vocal group I was touring with. The only reason we used them was because they offered decent sound for vocals in a small package. Gary Eickmeier You might want to see a couple of recent threads in rec.audio.pro concerning Bose speakers. My intent was not to offend anyone's personal preference as far as audio equipment is concerned. I am simply offering my experience and opinion. -- Ye' Old Snapper "Qty. 78 snapped and still going strong" |
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#11
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Design My Speaker system
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 04:26:01 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
wrote: wrote: As a side note, we used to sell lot's of Bose 901's based on the advertising in the trade rags. People would buy them without even listening to them. I would say that 95 percent or more of those people returned them within a week because they hated them. (No highs, no lows, must be Bose was the line we used to say) I can't help but wonder why it was necessary to insert this bit of revisionist history. Probably because it's the truth. Bose 901s sold on their sound, not their advertising. Stores used to use them to demo other equipment, or to lure customers into a listening room. Jaws would drop and checkbooks would appear. They were legendary for their dynamics and HUGE sound. Gordon Holt said in his Stereophile review that they made all other speakers sound trivial. Indeed so - shame that they also sound nothing like the source material! IOW, hugely impressive in the showroom, as you say, and returned after a week because of their poor sound, as the other guy said. As for the no highs no lows poem, I recall Pecar Electronics in Detroit placing some 901s on top of Electrovoice Patricians, the ones with the 30 inch woofers, and playing them to make people think they were listening to the Pats. I know, they don't go THAT low, but your little ditty isn't true either. Sure it is - have you never listened to the 901? Are you not aware that it's nine portable radio speakers in a crate? It simply does *not* have highs or lows. I canna' change the laws o' physics, cap'n - not even with the massive EQ that Bose used in an attempt to repeal those laws! As for someone returning them, it is probably true that if you sold a pair to someone who hadn't a clue how to set them up or use them, then they wouldn't perform as designed. Thre *is* no way to set up 901s to give high fidelity sound. Getting a high shine on a cowpat is child's play in comparison. Probably not the only speaker to suffer this fate... But in the right room they were hard or impossible to beat. I carefully compared them to some Ohm-Fs and some Magneplanars in one store, and the 901s sounded better, for 1/3 the price or so. I am still using my 901s, in combination with subwoofers and surround sound, and have found nothing yet to replace them. Personal preference is weird and wonderful thing - some people even like SET amps................ -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#12
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Thanks everyone for your advice.
Based on what Joseph said: Joseph Oberlander wrote in message news:tF74c.11037$Gm5.26678@attbi_s04... Easy. Magnepans. Something decent plus a sub. Well today was the first day I every laid eyes or EARS on a MagnePlanar. Gee's guys where have these great speakers been hiding? The decision was made today on the Main speakers. They a MagnePlanar MG1.6 Yikes guys these things sounded great at $1700 a pair. I was sucked into the store, because they had a set of used for $1400. I'm a little spooked by used, so I'll probably go with the new. So my mind is locked in on the MG1.6 speakers. $1700 down. That leaves $1300 for the rest. So the store suggest: PSB speakers. I've never heard of these, they sounded OK. So to add to the MG1.6 I'm looking at: PSB Image 1B a pair at $300 for the rear speakers PSB Image 8C $300 for the center speaker PSB SubSonic 6i for the 12" Subwoofer $700 I'm ON BUDGET! Are the PSB speakers OK? And now onto a Receiver and DVD player. The shop is selling something-called NAD. Any good? They think so. But since I'm new to all this, I'm clueless. Looking at NAD T743 A/V Receiver And NAD T 533 DVD/CD player. The only draw back right off the bat is the T533 DVD can only play DVD-A and not SaCDs. So I'm not real drawn to it. But the shop guys says it will sound better than a cheap-o dual format DVD player. SO what is the NAD advice? |
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#13
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Design My Speaker system
Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Well I should have never walked into that High End Electronic store and ask to listen to some speakers! Them *******s made me listen to some $4000 Kef's and now I can't sleep at night! I lay awake thinking about selling my car to get the Kefs. So where I am at now is, I've blown my Speaker budget ceiling of $1000. And in a quest for the best my checkbook can afford, I've set a new limit of $3000 just for the speakers. I'll buy whatever receiver will work with my new Speakers. My goal is to listen to the best SaCD music and DVD-A I can. Music is more important to me, that watching DVDs on surround sound. That will just be an added bonus. I have heard some expensive Kefs and Boston Acoustics BT-1s and like the sound of both, which I can't afford. So what 6 speakers for $3000, would you buy, to listen to SaCD? Easy. Magnepans. Something decent plus a sub. Figure $550 a pair for MMGs in the rear, a sub($800 or so for something fast) and a MMG type center. That should leave about enough for a pair of 12s in the front. Those new $300 a pair models also are tempting - $600 for center and surround and a subwoofer means you have $1600 or so for the main speakers. Me? I'd get the MMGs and a center - because 50hz is just about perfect for surround, while 80-100hz is a bit tougher as it is still somewhat directional. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/mg12.htm The 12 are almost as good as the 1.6 yet are kind of the forgotten stepchild of the line - so they are a great under $1000 set and can be haggled down to $900-$950. More if you are buying a full set - as they don't really sell that fast. Pair of MMG: $550 Pair of 12: $950(avg street price) Center of choice - the new $300 center is pretty decent, though only 100hz at the low-end and 16khz at the top. Or just get another pair of MMGs and got for a 6.1 setup. Pair MMGs(see Magnepan's site - note the dual speaker center channel setup): $550 Figure $2000 for the whole setup or better if bought as a "system" and you haggle some. That leaves $1000 for a good subwoofer and the ICBM module. Definately doable. Hear, hear! It's a matter just of how many dollars to spend, and what state (if any) of WAF. |
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#14
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
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#15
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Design My Speaker system
Gary Eickmeier wrote in message
news:tZa4c.12546$Gm5.35440@attbi_s04... Bose 901s...were legendary for their dynamics and HUGE sound. Gordon Holt said in his Stereophile review that they made all other speakers sound trivial. Hi Gary, yes Gordon did say something along those lines back in 1971, but his comment was qualified. (You can read his review at http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/425.) His conclusion was "If we were to judge the 901 in terms of the best sound available, then, we would say that it produces a more realistic semblance of natural ambience than any other speaker system, but we would characterize it as unexceptional in all other respects...we doubt that the 901 will appeal to perfectionists who have developed a taste for subtleties of detail and timbre." Just thought I should put the record straight. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
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#16
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
They are better IMHO. I like dynamic speakers in almost all settings.
Only a huge ribbon or e-stat can achieve something as close sonically, but you have to be seated in one spot and have the speakers aligned to that spot to really get anything from them. The sound falls apart when you get up and walk around and others in the room cannot enjoy them as the person in the "sweet spot". You do have friends, no? I would get the full set of PSBs and the NAD amplifier, at least a T753. That is a nice system that should satisfy you for a long while. A smaller set of the PSBs should sound better and cost less. One issue that you will not be able to resolve at the showroom is placement of the planar speakers. They are problemetic. It's not anything brand specific, just any planar speaker is hard to deal with and set-up in most situations. You might also ask your better-half about the cosmetics. My wife hates planar designs. I am not effected there as I don't really fancy them either, but more than one set has been sent back due to inapproritate room coordination. Both the PSB and NAD offer a lot of good performance for the money. They are certainly not the least expensive products out there, but they consistently deliver more than a host of others. That is if you HAVE to get six. My best advise is to get a PAIR of really nice speakers, just like your ear-brain told you when you listened the first time to the better speakers. Repeat after me, "Better is better, more is more". When music matters, you will be using the two main speakers. If you have two $3000 speakers, they will slay the best $1000 speakers. Don't even think twice about what you heard. Listen again if you are in doubt. The more you read, the more confused you will become. Listen. The money you save on the amp will pay for the speakers. - Bill www.uptownaudio.com Roanoke VA (540) 343-1250 "Truestorys" wrote in message ... Thanks everyone for your advice. Based on what Joseph said: Joseph Oberlander wrote in message news:tF74c.11037$Gm5.26678@attbi_s04... Easy. Magnepans. Something decent plus a sub. Well today was the first day I every laid eyes or EARS on a MagnePlanar. Gee's guys where have these great speakers been hiding? The decision was made today on the Main speakers. They a MagnePlanar MG1.6 Yikes guys these things sounded great at $1700 a pair. I was sucked into the store, because they had a set of used for $1400. I'm a little spooked by used, so I'll probably go with the new. So my mind is locked in on the MG1.6 speakers. $1700 down. That leaves $1300 for the rest. So the store suggest: PSB speakers. I've never heard of these, they sounded OK. So to add to the MG1.6 I'm looking at: PSB Image 1B a pair at $300 for the rear speakers PSB Image 8C $300 for the center speaker PSB SubSonic 6i for the 12" Subwoofer $700 I'm ON BUDGET! Are the PSB speakers OK? And now onto a Receiver and DVD player. The shop is selling something-called NAD. Any good? They think so. But since I'm new to all this, I'm clueless. Looking at NAD T743 A/V Receiver And NAD T 533 DVD/CD player. The only draw back right off the bat is the T533 DVD can only play DVD-A and not SaCDs. So I'm not real drawn to it. But the shop guys says it will sound better than a cheap-o dual format DVD player. SO what is the NAD advice? |
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#17
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Truestorys wrote:
Well today was the first day I every laid eyes or EARS on a MagnePlanar. Gee's guys where have these great speakers been hiding? The decision was made today on the Main speakers. They a MagnePlanar MG1.6 Whoa, hold on there, cowboy. You go to one store, hear one speaker, and fall in love. Believe me, it's happened before. But I suggest you step back and explore your options before you commit. I'm not bashing Maggies, BTW. They might be perfect for you. But, given your admitted lack of experience at this sort of thing, I suggest you take your time and consider other possibilities. Yikes guys these things sounded great at $1700 a pair. I was sucked into the store, because they had a set of used for $1400. Seems a bit high for a used pair. Demo, maybe. I'm a little spooked by used, so I'll probably go with the new. So my mind is locked in on the MG1.6 speakers. $1700 down. That leaves $1300 for the rest. So the store suggest: PSB speakers. I've never heard of these, they sounded OK. Good brand--one of those Canadian firms that relies on (gasp!) actual research into what sounds good. So to add to the MG1.6 I'm looking at: PSB Image 1B a pair at $300 for the rear speakers PSB Image 8C $300 for the center speaker PSB SubSonic 6i for the 12" Subwoofer $700 I'm ON BUDGET! Are the PSB speakers OK? More than ok, but...you're talking about mating them with Maggies. I can't say, because I've never listened to them side by side, but I wouldn't automatically assume that the two would go together real well. That doesn't matter so much for surrounds or even sub, but matching mains and center channel is important. Did you actually listen to this combination? It sounds like you went to a shop that sells Maggies and PSB, and that's what they're trying to sell you. Nothing wrong with that, and buying everything from the same shop has much to recommend it. But one of the things it has to recommend it is that you can actually hear everything together. Make sure you do before you commit. And now onto a Receiver and DVD player. The shop is selling something-called NAD. Any good? They think so. Sure they do. They sell it. NAD's a solid brand, considered entry-level audiophile by some. That amp would be fine with the PSBs. Someone with more background on the Maggies may want to chime in on whether there's enough oomph there, however. But since I'm new to all this, I'm clueless. Looking at NAD T743 A/V Receiver And NAD T 533 DVD/CD player. The only draw back right off the bat is the T533 DVD can only play DVD-A and not SaCDs. So I'm not real drawn to it. But the shop guys says it will sound better than a cheap-o dual format DVD player. Sure they do. They sell it. But anyone putting together a multichannel system is going to want SACD. With DVD-A, there's just not a lot to listen to. SO what is the NAD advice? Better than some, but not as much better than some as some folks like to think. Let's get back to speakers. I'd agree with other suggestions that you should give Paradigms a listen. I'd also go back to this shop and check out all-PSB systems. You could do the Stratus Mini with a better center channel, for example. Maggie might be the right girl for you, son, but make sure it's love, and not just infatuation. And be sure to bring her home to Mom--meaning, speakers are very room-sensitive, and something that sounds great at the store might not cut it back home. bob __________________________________________________ _______________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ |
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#19
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Design My Speaker system
Magnepans - great speakers when they agree with the room and the
placement. However, the fact that the store gave a fantastic demo may not be the last word on the subject. . The sound of Magnepans is highly dependendent on the room. Smart dealers know how to set them up for their room, but yours is robably different. I never sold them in my store, but I had plenty of Magnepan owning customers trying to find a way to make them work in their room. Some even traded them in because they just couldn't get them positioned to sound right. Even front firing speakers have difficulty being too close to the wall behind them. Since Magneplanar speakers have as much sound coming from the back as the front placement in the room is very important. Wylie Williams The Speaker and Stereo Store "Rich Andrews." wrote in message news:K_a4c.12555$Gm5.35003@attbi_s04... (Truestorys) wrote in news:dY54c.10139$Gm5.23245 @attbi_s04: Well I should have never walked into that High End Electronic store and ask to listen to some speakers! Them *******s made me listen to some $4000 Kef's and now I can't sleep at night! I lay awake thinking about selling my car to get the Kefs. So where I am at now is, I've blown my Speaker budget ceiling of $1000. And in a quest for the best my checkbook can afford, I've set a new limit of $3000 just for the speakers. I'll buy whatever receiver will work with my new Speakers. My goal is to listen to the best SaCD music and DVD-A I can. Music is more important to me, that watching DVDs on surround sound. That will just be an added bonus. I have heard some expensive Kefs and Boston Acoustics BT-1s and like the sound of both, which I can't afford. So what 6 speakers for $3000, would you buy, to listen to SaCD? What I would do is look for something better in the used area. I would also just look for a pair, not 6. Later on when you save the money, you can get the best pair you can afford and relegate your old ones to rear channel duty. You would be surprised what $3000 will buy on the used market. The whole point is that if you have a truly great pair of speakers in the front, then the system will sound magnificent when you add the other speakers. r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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#20
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Truestorys wrote:
Thanks everyone for your advice. Based on what Joseph said: Joseph Oberlander wrote in message news:tF74c.11037$Gm5.26678@attbi_s04... Easy. Magnepans. Something decent plus a sub. Well today was the first day I every laid eyes or EARS on a MagnePlanar. Gee's guys where have these great speakers been hiding? The decision was made today on the Main speakers. They a MagnePlanar MG1.6 OOO. Gooody! We have another convert  Yikes guys these things sounded great at $1700 a pair. I was sucked into the store, because they had a set of used for $1400. I'm a little spooked by used, so I'll probably go with the new. Used is fine. They are actually technolgicaly simple in their design. Oh - they should sell new for $1600 and used for about $1200. Haggle. Don't pay MSRP. So my mind is locked in on the MG1.6 speakers. $1700 down. That leaves $1300 for the rest. So the store suggest: PSB speakers. I've never heard of these, they sounded OK. So to add to the MG1.6 I'm looking at: BZZT. He's selling what he HAS. When you do get surrounds... www.magnepan.com - click on the blinking "New From Magnepan" logo. These $300 a pair speakers are IT for small surrounds. Add the center channel for another $300 and you've got $700 left for a subwoofer. $600 direct from Magnepan gets you your surround completed. Subwoofer. Really a no-brainer - HSU VTF3. $700 MSRP. That's your budget. http://www.hsustore.com/vtf3.html Few things are better for the price. It really is a stunning sub that works well with Maggies. Even tiny maggies will out-anything non-planar surrounds. The MMGs do have a 50-20Khz range while the MMG-W have a 100hz to 16Khz range, but for surrounds, that's very good. Yes, they will lack low-end, but the advantage of this is that they have *one* panel. This is a huge win IMO as it means that the center and surrounds have no crossover, so they seamlessly integrate into the music. No processing or external active crossover or other nonsense required. Hook up to the stereo and go. Wall mounts as well. For $300, these are the best deal in audio that I've seen in a long time. Me? I'd haggle and get the 1.6s and MMGs and the $300 MMG-C center. That should be about $1600 and $550 and $300, plus the sub. If the store can order them all for you, you should be able to swing a deal for about $3K even. IMO, if the MMGs put you $100-$200 over, it's worth it. 100hz is as low as most center channel audio needs to go, but 50hz is really nice for surrounds. And now onto a Receiver and DVD player. The shop is selling something-called NAD. Any good? They think so. But since I'm new to all this, I'm clueless. You'll need a 4 ohm capable receiver. If it puts out 100watts into 8 ohms, it needs to be able to put out at least 200wpc into 4 ohms or it will only last a few years before it starts to wear out. Looking at NAD T743 A/V Receiver And NAD T 533 DVD/CD player. Get a basic $250 progressive scan DVD/SACD/DVD-A player. Spend the savings on a good amplifier. All DVD players will do CD audio. Sony makes a nice line. This is like a VCR - high use and the one real consumable in the system as standards change every few years. NAD is overpriced. **PART 2** The previous is simple - Maggies all the way around and a good HSU or maybe Velodyne Servo sub. The next part is really a whole other process - the receiver. Here's what to do: Get a good receiver. The Cd and Receiver above are about $1100-$1200 together, IIRC, so Getting a $299 DVD player will leave you with about $900 for a receiver. Of Denon, Sony, Rotel, and half a dozen others, only NAD seems to make a 4 ohm rated all in one receiver. The salesdroid had the right idea, but you need 100wpc*5, or basically an amp that will do near 250wpc at 4 ohms continuous into 2 channels. You will save a lot of money, though, by getting one single amplifier/receiver. (all below are 4 ohm ratings) The 743 is only good for 2*145W, which means 290watts total power. That's 58wpc*5, which is too little, IMO. That's peak as well, not continuous. The 753 is 200wpc or 400watts total. That's 80wpc into 5 channels. A bit better. *whew* **UPDATE** I was JUST about to click send when I saw this: http://www.outlawaudio.com/holiday-sale.html You can get seperates for the price of a receiver! The 950B is a great processor and at these prices, it's like almost getting one for free with a regular multichannel amp. At $799 new, it's a steal. Power Output (FTC): 7 x 100 watts @ 8 ohms, 20 - 20kHz, 0.05% THD, All Channels Driven 7 x 165 watts @ 4 ohms, 20 - 20kHz, 0.05% THD, All Channels Driven That's continuous power and plenty. This will whomp on the NAD 763. $900 BUT - buy both in the B-Stock sale and it's $1499 for something that competes with typical $3000 seperate systems. Me - I'd probably "cheap out" and get the NAD 773 equivalent $1499 stack. 7 channels, 2 for later - 5 driven means more power to the 5 - less total load. Figure 230wpc*5 or thereabouts. That's it - A 7.1 Channel preamp/processor and amplifier. $1499 B stock or $1698 new. No better deal exists right now that I could find after searching all evening.(gf is sick and I'm not getting any - lol - so why NOT help out?) |
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#21
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Design My Speaker system
Frank O. Hodge wrote:
Hear, hear! It's a matter just of how many dollars to spend, and what state (if any) of WAF. Actually, Maggies have very high WAF as they intrude into the room very little if wall mounted. |
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#22
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Design My Speaker system
John Atkinson wrote:
Hi Gary, yes Gordon did say something along those lines back in 1971, but his comment was qualified. (You can read his review at http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/425.) His conclusion was "If we were to judge the 901 in terms of the best sound available, then, we would say that it produces a more realistic semblance of natural ambience than any other speaker system, but we would characterize it as unexceptional in all other respects...we doubt that the 901 will appeal to perfectionists who have developed a taste for subtleties of detail and timbre." Just thought I should put the record straight. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile Hello again John, Thanks for the link. I bought that back issue once upon a time, but I lost it somewhere in my move to Florida. It's true that Gordon concluded that it wasn't his cup of tea, but I thought his initial comments were particularly good. He was trying to figure out why this crazy speaker was so compelling to so many people. The problem lies in the setup, and I am developing a theory about that. I have noticed over the years that the smaller the room, the more chance for screw-ups in positioning the 901s. I'm sure you have noticed that the Brits had an exceptional aversion to them. The reason: small listening rooms (with plaster walls). My epiphany came when I realized that they need to have a lot more breathing space behind them than most people realized, and even than the owners manual recommended. When I pulled mine out from the walls, everything opened up, images formed in mid air, and timbral problems all cleared up. It only makes sense that 901s have no different requirements for placement than any other speakers, and we know the audiophile typical placement is well out from the walls, especially for omnis and dipoles. So I learned a secret about how to use these speakers that no one else spent enough time with them to discover themselves. And I've been trying to write about it ever since. What's amusing is that when you DO get it right, they are even better than those initial impressions that people had of them in the early days. My room is 21 x 31 feet and dedicated to the principles I am espousing for these speakers. I am not completely satisfied with my surround setup - like, I need some side speakers along the side walls - but I have made some improvements as suggested by Howard Ferstler and Tom Nousaine, and I think it is sounding pretty damn good right now. If you ever get to Florida, give me a ring. Gary Eickmeier |
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#23
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Design My Speaker system
Joseph Oberlander wrote:
Frank O. Hodge wrote: Hear, hear! It's a matter just of how many dollars to spend, and what state (if any) of WAF. Actually, Maggies have very high WAF as they intrude into the room very little if wall mounted. If wall mounted! YIPES! Is this a joke? Gary Eickmeier |
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#24
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Design My Speaker system
Wylie Williams wrote:
Magnepans - great speakers when they agree with the room and the placement. However, the fact that the store gave a fantastic demo may not be the last word on the subject. . The sound of Magnepans is highly dependendent on the room. Smart dealers know how to set them up for their room, but yours is robably different. I never sold them in my store, but I had plenty of Magnepan owning customers trying to find a way to make them work in their room. Some even traded them in because they just couldn't get them positioned to sound right. Even front firing speakers have difficulty being too close to the wall behind them. Since Magneplanar speakers have as much sound coming from the back as the front placement in the room is very important. That's why the new MMG-W speakers are so neat. If you notice the pictures they have of A/V placement, you'll notice a pair of speakers flanking the plasma TV. http://www.magnepan.com/1-800-474-16...all-MC1-HI.jpg Note what they did. They installed a piano hinge type mount on each speaker. When it's not in use, fold flat. When in use, move out 45-90 degrees. Perfect sound every time. The MMG-W speakers come with this sort of mount built in, but it wouldn't be impossible to call them and get them to add the same arrangement to a MMG I bet. |
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#25
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
"Bob Marcus" wrote in message ...
Whoa, hold on there, cowboy. Howdy Bob, how did you know I was from Texas? g You go to one store, hear one speaker, and fall in love. Believe me, it's happened before. But I suggest you step back and explore your options before you commit. I've been in about 5 stores and sadly, have falling in love with more and more expensive speakers as my quest continues. It seems that as the dollar bills start falling out of my wallet the Speakers get better and better. The Maggies to me, just had this full sound, that was good to my ears. They still didn't break my craving for the $4000 Kef's that some ******* salesman made me sit in front of as he played this addicting SaCD disc. He was an evil pusher! And I heard some Boston Acoustic BT1s that I wanted to steal while the sales guy and his manager went out for a smoke break. I've heard things called Klisp? Can't spell them. They were ok. Nothing to write home about. Let's get back to speakers. I'd agree with other suggestions that you should give Paradigms a listen. You know.... I will try and hunt down some Paradigms. Lots of people are pointing me that way. I should give them a try. The Maggie things sounded so great I'd just hate to hear something better. gg Thanks Bob, |
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#26
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Joseph Oberlander wrote in message news:
MagnePlanar MG1.6 OOO. Gooody! We have another convert Yup... They sounded great. But......to your suggestions of Magnepan's front and rear and all around the house...... Well... Well.... I do have a wife..... and (GULP) she has some control over what HER place looks like.... and I don't think I'll be hanging any Magnepan's on hinges in HER house. But I am still the MAN in this house!!! g I just hope I can sneak the MG1.6s through the front door and past our bedroom, while she lies sleeping in the dead of night. I'll tell her that the Easter Bunny must have brought them and there is no way he can take them back. But even then, her foot is very large...and if she puts it down, the MG1.6s may sleep with me in the garage. But I do need a good set of speakers in the garage. g Subwoofer. Really a no-brainer - HSU VTF3. $700 MSRP. That's your budget. http://www.hsustore.com/vtf3.html Few things are better for the price. It really is a stunning sub that works well with Maggies. I'll check this out. But I may have to spend the extra $200 for a wood finish. Not for me.....but for the other human being that lives in the same house with me. **UPDATE** I was JUST about to click send when I saw this: http://www.outlawaudio.com/holiday-sale.html You can get seperates for the price of a receiver! Here is where me, being a newbie, starts asking dumb questions..... I've never, ever, understood this Amp, Pre Amp, "More Power Captain" part of High Fidelity. It just doesn't enter into my understanding. I have a blind spot to it. And it's probably been BEAT to death a hundred times in this forum. So I won't start any ritual flogging at this time. That kinda pushes me to a one-piece NAD receiver or a sales guy pushed me toward a Denon today at about a $1000. He also pushed me towards a Denon DVD-2200. And I think I like that one. It's got my dual format SaCD and DVD-A. So I think I'm locking in on that DVD player. Still in the Air is the Receiver. Thanks for all the info. |
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#27
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Truestorys wrote:
"Bob Marcus" wrote in message ... Whoa, hold on there, cowboy. I've been in about 5 stores and sadly, have falling in love with more and more expensive speakers as my quest continues. It seems that as the dollar bills start falling out of my wallet the Speakers get better and better. The reason Maggies sound so good is that while most speakers give you realism via sheer volume and dynamics, the Maggies do it by recreating a realistic sized wave. The reason conventional speakers don't sound realistic is that while they can recreate the waveforms, they are compressed into a 6-12 inch driver. The Magnepans and other planar and electrostatic designs have a several squard FOOT area, so you get the radiating pattern of a bass brum with no compression. Also, there is plenty of room to properly recreate interactions. For instance - if a typical 6 inch woofer is trying to recreate the sound from a choir, you have the entire lower range of all the 20 voices being recreated. All on top of each other. Something has to give - and what you loose is the ability to hear every single voice if you want - or to not(zone out and listen to it all). Good speakers do this, though. Poor ones do not. Unfortunately, truly clean and detailed speakers tend to cost thousands of dollars. Q: listen to a pair of speakers like the KEFs and some acoustic guitar. Can you hear the strings? Can you hear the fingers rubbing against them and the pick? Can you tell what weight strings are on the insturment or what type of insturment? In real life if you are a professional musician, all of this can be determined with a high degree of accuracy. Speakers do different levels of this. I've heard $1500 speakers that still don't give you enough information to tell everything, so you have to listen. What you are hearing with the Magnepans is the full range of detailed informaiton that the conventional speakers aren't giving you. IME, this is what people describe as "live" - when they are in an audience, they do this without thinking. Listen to one voice, then a section, then it all - in and out a few times a second. The big radiating surface of the panel and electrostatic speakers allows for every voice to be heard clearly if you listen carefully, for a lot less money. The tradeoff is power required, maxuimum volume, and space. For classical, though, in a home setting, they are perfect. |
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#28
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Bob, I've been into this addictive hobby for almost 30 years and have been
through more speakers than you could possibly imagine. I've liked allot of speaker's, but each had their limitations. About a year ago I broke down and bought the Maggie 1.6's and I'm here to tell you I'm now totally satisfied. I could never go back to a traditional speaker. These are the most realistic sounding speakers I've heard, and I've owned some that cost three time what these do. The Maggie's are placement critical, you have to get them out from the rear wall a bit and need a little room to the sides as well, but not that much. Mine are only a little over two feet from the rear wall (this is where they sounded the best in my room) and many box speaker's have almost this much depth. When you hear people describe the Maggie's, the word magical always seems to pop up, and this is exactly how I would describe them. However, they do not have what I consider adequate low freq. response unless you only listen to acoustic music. Mine are also used in a HT set-up and I listen to all kinds of music including Rock. I cut mine at 40Hz and use a sub (SVS) below that point and it works great. Another thing you need to know about the Maggie's is that they are a consistent 4 Ohm load and are fairly inefficient, so they require a decent amp with a good power supply and lots of current. I'm using an Outlaw five channel model-550 with excellent results. It's hard to make a real comparison when you are shopping for speakers and each store has a different sounding room, different source components, etc. However, just set the Maggie's up and bring in one pair of conventional speakers at a time and hear the Maggie's mow em down. I too am from Texas and bought mine in Austin. At the time I owned the PSB Stratus Gold i's, and went to Austin to audition the Dynaudio line (which are some of my favorite traditional speakers). Another guy was there auditioning the Maggie 12's and I kept getting distracted and found myself creeping into his audition. I would listen to the Maggie's then go back to the Dynaudio, Linn's, PSB's and other's I was trying, and each time I felt the air and realness was missing when I left the Maggie room. It had been years since I heard the Maggie's. When I had first heard them years ago I never again gave them a thought as back then they were very dynamically limited and IMO were only good for acoustic music. To my surprise they had made huge improvements and they now have that magical sound with the dynamics to present a realistic music representation. Still not the most dynamic speaker in the world, but they just sounded real and true. I brought in the speakers I considered the best box speaker I had auditioned that day, don't remember the model any longer, but it was a floor standing Dynaudio that cost about four grand and did a side by side with the 12's and was amazed. This little speaker costing 1/4th the price was better. The guy recommended I try the 3.6's which were closer in price range, and wow, no even close. I ended up with the 1.6's because I thought they were the best bang for the buck and a little smaller. But now that I have my wife hooked on the Maggie sound, I think I can bring in the 1.6's and she will put up with these monster's in our room. You have to break them in gradually, the wife's that is. :-) I say do yourself a favor and give the Maggie's a chance. If you can afford to put a good amp with them and have the room, you will be rewarded big time. "Truestorys" wrote in message news:FqS4c.9657$po.163869@attbi_s52... "Bob Marcus" wrote in message ... Whoa, hold on there, cowboy. Howdy Bob, how did you know I was from Texas? g You go to one store, hear one speaker, and fall in love. Believe me, it's happened before. But I suggest you step back and explore your options before you commit. I've been in about 5 stores and sadly, have falling in love with more and more expensive speakers as my quest continues. It seems that as the dollar bills start falling out of my wallet the Speakers get better and better. The Maggies to me, just had this full sound, that was good to my ears. They still didn't break my craving for the $4000 Kef's that some ******* salesman made me sit in front of as he played this addicting SaCD disc. He was an evil pusher! And I heard some Boston Acoustic BT1s that I wanted to steal while the sales guy and his manager went out for a smoke break. I've heard things called Klisp? Can't spell them. They were ok. Nothing to write home about. Let's get back to speakers. I'd agree with other suggestions that you should give Paradigms a listen. You know.... I will try and hunt down some Paradigms. Lots of people are pointing me that way. I should give them a try. The Maggie things sounded so great I'd just hate to hear something better. gg Thanks Bob, |
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#29
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Jack Dotson wrote:
Bob, I've been into this addictive hobby for almost 30 years and have been through more speakers than you could possibly imagine. I've liked allot of speaker's, but each had their limitations. About a year ago I broke down and bought the Maggie 1.6's and I'm here to tell you I'm now totally satisfied. I could never go back to a traditional speaker. These are the most realistic sounding speakers I've heard, and I've owned some that cost three time what these do. What part of "I'm not bashing Maggies" did you not understand? My only point was that a newbie who falls in love with the first real high-end speaker he hears should take some time to consider alternatives. In a subsequent post, he admits to falling in love with a lot of speakers (which happened to many of us in our early days). So I'll hold to my advice. The Maggie's are placement critical, you have to get them out from the rear wall a bit and need a little room to the sides as well, but not that much. Which is one reason for him to proceed carefully. Maggies, despite their sonic virtues, may not be the right choice in many living rooms where one must compromise with both the wife and other furnishings. (And anyone who thinks that hanging planars on the wall is the solution to interior decorating issues is a bachelor!) Mine are only a little over two feet from the rear wall (this is where they sounded the best in my room) and many box speaker's have almost this much depth. When you hear people describe the Maggie's, the word magical always seems to pop up, and this is exactly how I would describe them. However, they do not have what I consider adequate low freq. response unless you only listen to acoustic music. Mine are also used in a HT set-up and I listen to all kinds of music including Rock. I cut mine at 40Hz and use a sub (SVS) below that point and it works great. What center and surrounds are you using? He was going to make do with some pretty low-end PSBs. Another thing you need to know about the Maggie's is that they are a consistent 4 Ohm load and are fairly inefficient, so they require a decent amp with a good power supply and lots of current. I'm using an Outlaw five channel model-550 with excellent results. Another reason to proceed slowly on the Maggies. Remember, he's on a rather tight budget. Think that 50 wpc NAD's gonna cut it? Again, I'm not bashing Maggies. But when he considers all his needs AND constraints, he may well decide that there's a better system for him. bob __________________________________________________ _______________ Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ |
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#31
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Truestorys wrote:
Yup... They sounded great. But......to your suggestions of Magnepan's front and rear and all around the house...... Well... Well.... I do have a wife..... and (GULP) she has some control over what HER place looks like.... and I don't think I'll be hanging any Magnepan's on hinges in HER house. But I am still the MAN in this house!!! g It's simple. For all you out there with WAP (Wife Approval Problems), all you have to do is fake a heart attack. While on your deathbed, you confess that you just wish you could have owned some of those Maggies and enjoyed them, if only for a little while, but you sacrificed for your family, and... then, you get a commitment from her that if you ever make it out of this, you WILL get those Maggies, because life is short, after all... Or, you could just tell her they were on sale for only $99.95 and you had to act fast. You do handle the family finances, right? Gary Eickmeier |
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#32
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Truestorys wrote:
Joseph Oberlander wrote in message news: (sigh - computer crashed after 30 minutes of typing - try again) But......to your suggestions of Magnepan's front and rear and all around the house...... Well... Well.... I do have a wife..... and (GULP) she has some control over what HER place looks like.... and I don't think I'll be hanging any Magnepan's on hinges in HER house. Face it - you are wipped like the rest of us. Heh. As for the mounting: The main speakers are a moot point. You are either getting large towers or these. Talk to her about it and show her some large speakers like Tannoy Saturn 10s and Klipsch towers. Say that the main speakers need to be larger than a shoebox to sound good, so the main pair are going to be big. The 1.6 and 12 have stands, so they aren't terribly bad decor-wise. If she goes nuts about the 1.6, then get the 12s. The 12s sound a little bit less good at the very bottom - no big deal, IMO, as you have a subwoofer to fill in there. The big deal, though, is the surrounds. How to get your wife to like Magnepans: Step 1: Make a 10*8*8 cardboard box. Paint it black. Show her this on the wall in various positions and comment about and show her pictures of the typical wall mount brackets used for such midsize bookshelf speakers. Step 2: Make a 10.5*38 inch piece of 3/4 inch finished plywood. This is the exact size in all three dimmensions of a MMG-W. Paint it the same color as the walls. Place it next to a window frame or curtain. Note how it dissapears. All you need is a piece of molding or picture or ANYTHING bigger than it to place it against(I have casement windows in my house) and it's poof-gone. Remember when you moved into your house? There were likely no curtains. When you first put the curtains up, they looked out of place for a week or two, then you got used to them as they were only a few inches off the wall and relatively flat looking. Now, you don't see them at all. The boxy speaker on a mount will never look seamless like that. It will always stick out. The Maggie will blend in quickly and be simmilar to a wall treatment or painting or wall hanging. They come in three colors. You can also find grill fabric in other colors or get ones that look like artwork. 3: Hinges. The idea with the hinges on the MMG-W is that you paint them the same color as the walls and the speakers lie flat against the wall when not in use. This same effect can be accomplished with 2-6 inch long 1/2 inch wide dowels as mounts(again, same colr as the walls) used as spacers. One side should be an inch lower, so as to angle it in a bit. The general rule is that like curtains, if it is less than 6 inches off the walls, your brain ignores it after about two weeks. Quicker if it blends in (say black speaker on a dark green or dark red wall, or off-white speaker on an off-white wall) 1 inch off the wall is like acoustic tile. Make it even roughly the same color as the walls and it's not there. 4: Use So - hinges. You have them installed. Near curtains or a window is good - maybe 4-12 inches off, so there is some visual continuity plus a small space. Put the surrounds out and into optimal listening position. This may take some time. When you have them set, take a 1.5-2 inch round 1/2 inch thick section on a dowel. Cut it out to that angle. It should be something like 30-50 degrees. Cut it so that the circular side is out. Put felt on the end that touches the speaker and paint it the color of the walls. Place at the bottom edge of the speaker or top edge - whichever is least visible. It should only contact the frame of the speaker. This is your little positioning stop. It should be about as high as the speaker is when it is flat againt the wall, so that it never sticks out higher than the speaker when the speaker is in "off" position. You'll end up with a little 3/4 inch nub off the wall at on corner about 1/4 inch out from the speaker if done right. Flat when not in use. Moved out in seconds into proper position when in use. WAF is high as your system is only ugly while playing. That you took such steps to make them blend in is a big plus, or will be in her mind. Trust me. Small Maggies are a snap to deal with. But even then, her foot is very large...and if she puts it down, the MG1.6s may sleep with me in the garage. The idea is sell her on the seamless surrounds and then the 12 or 1.6 mains are "tolerable". She'll love the sound as well. Subwoofer. Really a no-brainer - HSU VTF3. $700 MSRP. That's your budget. http://www.hsustore.com/vtf3.html Few things are better for the price. It really is a stunning sub that works well with Maggies. I'll check this out. But I may have to spend the extra $200 for a wood finish. Not for me.....but for the other human being that lives in the same house with me. If it has to be wood finish, then also consider the MArtin Logan Grotto. It is a $900(street price) servo sub and perfect for your needs. It's not wood trimmed, but it isn't square. It's actually pretty decor friendly. http://www.martinlogan.com/grotto_speaker.html 16 inches high and about as round is very hideable. Servo subs are known for their accuracy and quickness. This is a "baby servo" - but for music, it's perfect for a reinforcement setup. The idea is that you feel the bass, but don't hear it. You want the level to just add bass to the speakers and extend the range. Not to create a hip-hop type boom. You don't need more than a typical 8-10 inch subwoofer to do this. The trapeziodal shape is meant to work well againt a wall. Just something to think about if a black cube is out of the question. The HSU is very good as well - and the cherry finish is nice. I was JUST about to click send when I saw this: http://www.outlawaudio.com/holiday-sale.html You can get seperates for the price of a receiver! Here is where me, being a newbie, starts asking dumb questions..... I've never, ever, understood this Amp, Pre Amp, "More Power Captain" part of High Fidelity. It just doesn't enter into my understanding. I have a blind spot to it. And it's probably been BEAT to death a hundred times in this forum. So I won't start any ritual flogging at this time. Let me simplify. There is no difference between 1 and 2 pieces at this level. 2 allows you to swap out one componet later, though, if A/V standards change, though, or if your power needs change. A small plus. POWER SIMPLIFIED: Advertized power is moot. What matters is the power supply. The simple way to figure it out is look at the watts into 2 channels at 4 ohms rating only. Add these together. NAD 743: 145 wpc times 2 channels = 290watts. This is what the amplifier can do. No more. Divide by the number of speakers you are running. 290/5=58. 58wpc is what this amplifier will do into all 5 speakers at once. That's just not enough power as 10wpc may be enough for normal listening of classical music, but that FF snare hit is causing 100watt peaks(twice as loud). 1wpc=87db. 10wpc=97db 100wpc=107db 1000wpc=117db. A hard snare hit may be 90db, but for a split second, it peaks at over 100db. If you only have 58watts, you trip the protection circuit or blow the fuse on the speakers. Organ music and works like The Messiah require decent headroom. You need more overhead for dynamics. Most people consider 80-120wpc to be adequate. The 753 does 80wpc into all channels at once. This is an adequate receiver for your needs, but doesn't really allow for 7.1 sound later.(57wpc into 7 channels) The 763 is what you should be looking at. 120wpc into 5 channels or 86wpc into 7 channels. But it's a bit more money. *NOTE* Money saved on a DVD player should go towards the receiver. ****** BUT... The Outlaw Audio(small independant U.S. firm - serious about being in business for the long-term) has more power and overhead at about the same price as the 763. It's a clear winning combination. The main amplifier will drive the Magnepans as well as a typical $2000 amplifier and the processor is a capable unit. People who havbe had both amplifiers - the NAD and the Outlaw agree almost in unison that the Outlaw is a better sounding setup with Magnepans than the NAD. http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sv950.pdf Note the analog bass management feature aimed specifically at SACD. This feature is not on the NAD - and it's almost a must to direct the bass to the subwoofer with the surrounds you're likely to get. Basically, no matter what you play, it will adjust the bass properly if it isn't encoded properly on the DVD - and send it to the subwoofer. Neat trick. I also like the simplicity of off-the-shelf components. Why pay more for a knob when it's well - a knob? Save the major money for the inside. That kinda pushes me to a one-piece NAD receiver or a sales guy pushed me toward a Denon today at about a $1000. THE DENON CAN'T DO 4 OHMS. Sorry to shout, but I looked at everything and short of a $3000 setup, the NAD and Outlaw Audio are the only two that are remotely in your budget and that will do the job without stressing themselves too hard. He's trying to sell you what he has. That's understandable. For 8 or 6 ohm speakers, the Denon 3804 is a very good speaker. My father has one connected to a big pair of Tannoy towers and it is gorgeous. But it will barely do 6 ohms properly(fine for his setup). Not 4 in surround. Think of it this way - the money you save on the Magnepans over simmilar sounding conventional speakers is slightly compensated by needing a bigger amplifier. Under $1500 and capable of running a surround planar setup or a single pair of electrostatics is almost undheard of. He also pushed me towards a Denon DVD-2200. And I think I like that one. It's got my dual format SaCD and DVD-A. So I think I'm locking in on that DVD player. Street price on this should be about $600 or so. It's a fine player, but honestly - they all are the same: a computer DVD drive, a power supply, a display, and a processing board all stuck in a fancy box. I'd get a $299 Pioneer or simmilar model as HD-DVD is coming out in a few years. DTS and such isn't likely to change for a decade or more, but when HDTV comes out in force, it's going to require a decent DVD player. Spend the big bucks then. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-mkMAcUk...sp?i=130DV563A There you go. Same features as the Denon without the big price tag. That's $400 more to spend towards the amplifier. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn..._35168,00.html This one is better, actually. Does 6.1 audio out and a few other features. The DV-45A is their "Elite" series, which is much better than their consumer models. http://www.bestbuyplasma.com/plasma/..._X_SKU_Y_DV45A $339 and better than the Denon. Enjoy. Spend the $300 extra on the receiver, okay? |
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#33
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
From: Gary Eickmeier
Truestorys wrote: Yup... They sounded great. But......to your suggestions of Magnepan's front and rear and all around the house...... Well... Well.... I do have a wife..... and (GULP) she has some control over what HER place looks like.... and I don't think I'll be hanging any Magnepan's on hinges in HER house. But I am still the MAN in this house!!! g It's simple. For all you out there with WAP (Wife Approval Problems), all you have to do is fake a heart attack. While on your deathbed, you confess that you just wish you could have owned some of those Maggies and enjoyed them, if only for a little while, but you sacrificed for your family, and... then, you get a commitment from her that if you ever make it out of this, you WILL get those Maggies, because life is short, after all... Or, you could just tell her they were on sale for only $99.95 and you had to act fast. You do handle the family finances, right? Are women really this awful about stereo equipment? |
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#34
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Or, you could just tell her they were on sale for only $99.95 and you had to act fast. You do handle the family finances, right? Heh. Tell her the MMG-Ws were only $299 on sale. She'll not believe you until you show her the bill (was looking for a frequency slace vs a piano and ran into this) http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html After reading this, I'd splurge for the MMGs instead. 100hz is as low as a Tenor Sax goes, but 50 hz is just a few notes shy of the bottom of a bass guitar and covers a bass sax. That's just about right. "They sure don't sound like $550 speakers" is what I first thought when I heard a pair of MMGs. BTW - 24.5 hz is G0 - lowest normal composed note on a Tuba. This covers 98% of all music. This is about what most good subs will do cleanly down to, so that's really all you need. Most people just memorize 25hz as an optimal number. C0 is the bottom of the scale for normally recorded music. As low as a Tuba can go and the same for most organ music. 16.35hz isn't so bad, really. Some large subs can do around 16-18hz. Most people who are serious about Organ music usually have two subs or a big speaker that does about 30hz and then a 15 inch "thumper" for the last octave. Before CDs came out, this was la-la land, but in theory, a CD can capture C-1(biggest organ on the planet). Playing it back would likely shred your sub, though. But 16-20hz? No problem. |
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#35
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Farrell8882 wrote:
From: Gary Eickmeier Or, you could just tell her they were on sale for only $99.95 and you had to act fast. You do handle the family finances, right? Are women really this awful about stereo equipment? No, I was just kidding. Women LOVE stereo equipment and gadgets of all sorts. They really want nothing but your happiness, and the more you spend on your hobbies the better. Especially if the speakers dominate one end of your "living" room. The first thing my wife said to me on our honeymoon was "Hey, sweetie - why don't we convert our living room into a dedicated home theater?" Of course, the acoustical requirements alone blew all of my plans for hiding all the speakers behind the walls and having the chairs and sofa face each other in a cozy little circle.... Gary Eickmeier |
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#36
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Joseph Oberlander
wrote: Gary Eickmeier wrote: Or, you could just tell her they were on sale for only $99.95 and you had to act fast. You do handle the family finances, right? Heh. Tell her the MMG-Ws were only $299 on sale. She'll not believe you until you show her the bill (was looking for a frequency slace vs a piano and ran into this) http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html After reading this, I'd splurge for the MMGs instead. 100hz is as low as a Tenor Sax goes, but 50 hz is just a few notes shy of the bottom of a bass guitar and covers a bass sax. That's just about right. "They sure don't sound like $550 speakers" is what I first thought when I heard a pair of MMGs. BTW - 24.5 hz is G0 - lowest normal composed note on a Tuba. This covers 98% of all music. This is about what most good subs will do cleanly down to, so that's really all you need. Most people just memorize 25hz as an optimal number. C0 is the bottom of the scale for normally recorded music. As low as a Tuba can go and the same for most organ music. 16.35hz isn't so bad, really. Some large subs can do around 16-18hz. Most people who are serious about Organ music usually have two subs or a big speaker that does about 30hz and then a 15 inch "thumper" for the last octave. Before CDs came out, this was la-la land, but in theory, a CD can capture C-1(biggest organ on the planet). Playing it back would likely shred your sub, though. But 16-20hz? No problem. Let's not forget that there are also nature and other non-musical programming with content to 5 Hz or so. These are occasionally included in classical music recrdings such as the cannon shots in the "1812." |
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#37
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
Or, you could just tell her they were on sale for only $99.95 and
you had to act fast. You do handle the family finances, right? Are women really this awful about stereo equipment? In my house we have an arrangement. The area from the end of the rug to the front wall is mine for my stereo system. This constitutes a strip 16' wide by 2' deep, which unfortunately I have to share with the radiator. The large CD cabinet is outside this area, and was grandfathered in, since it was there before this arrangement was finalized. In practice, these restrictions have not proven onerous. However, they do eliminate from consideration all dipolar speakers. Norm Strong |
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#38
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
"Bob Marcus" wrote in message
... But when he considers all his needs AND constraints, he may well decide that there's a better system for him. Bob makes a good point here. And he should have capitalized CONSTRAINTS. On Bob's and others suggestions, I went out and heard some Paradigm speakers. I listen to Titian's and a model called Espirt. They sounded very good and would work great as a Surround sound system. To my Ear, they did not come up to Maggie level. They did not have the "Full" sound that the Maggies do. BUT......but... the Paradigm do fit more closely into the CONSTRAINTS that I must live with. First Constraints is the Money thing. If I go with Paradigm, I spend less money. Less money on Speakers, Less Money on Amp and Pre-amp and Power. Second Constraints is the Money thing. g Third Constraints is the large surface area the Maggies take up and the WAF that all that implies. So right now, I'm just stuck in decision-making Hell. I know that if I go with Paradigm I will have a good sounding system and I will sit in front of it and say to myself: "I wonder how good those Maggies would have been?" If I go with the Maggies, I watch more dollar bills fall out of my back pocket. And step on my wife's sense of House Decor. If I had no Constraints, I would go with the Maggies in a Heart beat. They clearly shine over the Paradigm. But I'm just stuck. I'll just stew all week, grinding on all this information, till I have a nervous break down or buy something. Thanks to all for all the input you have given. And a special Thanks, to Joseph for his advice with the cardboard box. "Step 1: Make a 10*8*8 cardboard box. Paint it black. Show her this on the wall in various positions and comment about and show her pictures of the typical wall mount brackets used for such midsize bookshelf speakers." My wife came home after a hard day at work and dragged her body to her favorite chair in the living room. She plopped her butt down. She screamed real loud, the "****" word at the walls of HER living room. Over and over again as I lay cringing on the floor behind the sofa. My 10 foot, by 8 foot , black painted pieces of cardboard, that were ducted taped to the front and rear walls, did not please here. I will not have sex for at least a month. |
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#39
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
"Truestorys" wrote in message
... *snip* I will not have sex for at least a month. In that case, get whatever the hell you want. How much worse could it get. |
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#40
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Design My Speaker system - continues....
"Truestorys" wrote in message
... *snip* On Bob's and others suggestions, I went out and heard some Paradigm speakers. I listen to Titian's and a model called Espirt. They sounded very good and would work great as a Surround sound system. To my Ear, they did not come up to Maggie level. They did not have the "Full" sound that the Maggies do. As I suggested earlier in this thread, you might want to take a listen to a system comprised of speakers from the higher end Paradigm line, such as the Studio 20s. A system of 5 such speakers coupled with one of the Paradigm subs, either the PW2200 or a Servo-15 (if you go used) will still have you within budget and, IMO, leave you with a better sounding overall system. BUT......but... the Paradigm do fit more closely into the CONSTRAINTS that I must live with. First Constraints is the Money thing. If I go with Paradigm, I spend less money. Less money on Speakers, Less Money on Amp and Pre-amp and Power. Second Constraints is the Money thing. g Third Constraints is the large surface area the Maggies take up and the WAF that all that implies. So right now, I'm just stuck in decision-making Hell. I know that if I go with Paradigm I will have a good sounding system and I will sit in front of it and say to myself: "I wonder how good those Maggies would have been?" If I go with the Maggies, I watch more dollar bills fall out of my back pocket. And step on my wife's sense of House Decor. If I had no Constraints, I would go with the Maggies in a Heart beat. They clearly shine over the Paradigm. Go back and listen to the better Paradigms with a wide variety of music. Include every genre that you listen too. You may find, as I did, that while panel speakers excel in certain areas, dynamic speakers are a better choice overall. |
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