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#1
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long ground back to battery
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since
the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. And it's a long run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Well now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that shouldn't be a problem?) I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there. So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short, or just add the short and leave the long ones too? Thanks, Mike |
#2
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long ground back to battery
kkmike wrote:
I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is. What matters is that the ground is sufficient. If you have 4 gauge from the battery feeding your amp, then a 4 gauge to the battery for the ground will be sufficient. But, it's an awful waste wire - the floorpan of most cars has the equivalent of a double 0 gauge wire. Grounding to the cars floor pan is more economical than paying a few bucks a foot for ground wire to run all the way back to the battery. And it's a long run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Sounds to me like he was trying to sell extra wire. Well now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that shouldn't be a problem?) Generally the whine you hear comes from a ground loop - a difference in "ground potential". Basically, one componant in your system has a better ground than another, either externally or due to a damaged componant inside some of the equipment. I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there. So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short, or just add the short and leave the long ones too? Neither. May I interest you in some literature? http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/rac-faq_2.html#SEC7 I would also help to know about the rest of your system. Is it an aftermarket radio? If stock, are there Line Output Converters installed (big source of noise). -- thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either" teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than usenet without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
#3
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long ground back to battery
"thelizman" wrote in message ... kkmike wrote: I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is. BZZZZT! Wrong answer. The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some. |
#4
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long ground back to battery
BZZZZT
Length of ground is not important as long as the amp has plenty of current... Its common for installers to use a short ground and get the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient size to supply plenty of juice... What installer school did you go to..?? Eddie Runner Pug Fugley wrote: "thelizman" wrote in message ... kkmike wrote: I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is. BZZZZT! Wrong answer. The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some. |
#5
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long ground back to battery
"Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... BZZZZT Length of ground is not important as long as the amp has plenty of current... Its common for installers to use a short ground and get the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient size to supply plenty of juice... A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire? What installer school did you go to..?? A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix. Eddie Runner Pug Fugley wrote: "thelizman" wrote in message ... kkmike wrote: I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is. BZZZZT! Wrong answer. The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some. |
#6
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long ground back to battery
"Pug Fugley" wrote in message ink.net... "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... BZZZZT Length of ground is not important as long as the amp has plenty of current... Its common for installers to use a short ground and get the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient size to supply plenty of juice... A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire? If the 20-foot length is connected to the battery terminal, and the 1-foot to whatever's handy, I'll take my chances on the long one. Not every piece of metal in the car is a good ground, and not all good amp-mounting locations come with a good grounding point within one foot. What installer school did you go to..?? A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix. Eddie Runner Pug Fugley wrote: "thelizman" wrote in message ... kkmike wrote: I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is. BZZZZT! Wrong answer. The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some. |
#7
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long ground back to battery
"KaeZoo" wrote in message ... "Pug Fugley" wrote in message ink.net... "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... BZZZZT Length of ground is not important as long as the amp has plenty of current... Its common for installers to use a short ground and get the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient size to supply plenty of juice... A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire? If the 20-foot length is connected to the battery terminal, and the 1-foot to whatever's handy, I'll take my chances on the long one. Not every piece of metal in the car is a good ground, and not all good amp-mounting locations come with a good grounding point within one foot. Well, make it 2 feet then. Anything shorter than 20 feet will be better. |
#8
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
BZZZZT! Wrong answer. The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some. Where you gonna find a ground within 1 foot on a corvette? You're a moron pug. The length of your ground wire doesn't matter as long as it is of sufficient size (gauge). If you paid for installer classes, you got ripped. -- thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either" teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than usenet without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
#9
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire? Depends on the gauge. 20 feet of 4 gauge wire has lest resistance than 1 foot of 22 gauge wire. What installer school did you go to..?? A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix. I've seen the course material for MD. They don't teach the kind of stupidity you're spewing. And the Phoenix school didn't exist 12 years ago. So...somewhere you're lying your ass off. -- thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either" teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than usenet without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
#10
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long ground back to battery
I would also help to know about the rest of your system. Is it an
aftermarket radio? If stock, are there Line Output Converters installed (big source of noise). HU is Alpine CDA-9813, front speakers component Polk DB6500, rear doors Polk DB650, sub JL 12W7; all using RCA preouts. The JL 450/4 amp channels 1&2 running the front speakers, channels 3&4 rear; JL 500/1 the sub. No other signal processors, no cap. I did notice tonight after playing around a bit that the noise is much louder when the HU is turned off. And it's a long run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Sounds to me like he was trying to sell extra wire. He didn't charge for the wire specifically - the total was $225, included the 3 miles of 4AWG wire, fuses, RCA's, speaker wire, and a little staggered "tier" he custom made to mount the amps onto so they both fit under one of the rear seats - it does look nice. The place came recommended; there are 5 or 6 of that chain of shops in my area, so it wasn't one of those "hey bud, I got a deal for you today" kind of places. They said bring it back tomorrow and they'll troubleshoot it. Neither. May I interest you in some literature? http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/rac-faq_2.html#SEC7 I'll print the FAQ and bring it with - thanks. Mike |
#11
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long ground back to battery
"thelizman" wrote in message ... Pug Fugley wrote: A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire? Depends on the gauge. 20 feet of 4 gauge wire has lest resistance than 1 foot of 22 gauge wire. What installer school did you go to..?? A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix. I've seen the course material for MD. They don't teach the kind of stupidity you're spewing. And the Phoenix school didn't exist 12 years ago. So...somewhere you're lying your ass off. Never said I WENT there 12 years ago. Learn to read. I've been in the INDUSTRY for 12 years. Didn't go to MD until much later. |
#12
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long ground back to battery
A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. bull**** you completely neglect the wire guage variable... what installer school DID you go to? -- sancho |
#13
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
Never said I WENT there 12 years ago. Learn to read. I've been in the INDUSTRY for 12 years. Didn't go to MD until much later. when did you go to md? and what'd you do before then? clean the restrooms at a circuit city? -- sancho |
#14
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long ground back to battery
"sancho" wrote in message ... Pug Fugley wrote: Never said I WENT there 12 years ago. Learn to read. I've been in the INDUSTRY for 12 years. Didn't go to MD until much later. when did you go to md? A few years ago. Why? and what'd you do before then? I banged your Mom for a while. clean the restrooms at a circuit city? I wouldn't take your job. You're made for it. |
#15
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long ground back to battery
"sancho" wrote in message ... A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. bull**** you completely neglect the wire gauge variable... Learn to read. Wire gauges are the S A M E. 1 foot of 4 gauge has less resistance than 20 feet of 4 gauge, dumbass. It's simple math. what installer school DID you go to? Mobile Dynamics..can you read? -- sancho |
#16
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long ground back to battery
The ground could be one of the problems. I have the 500/1 and I groun
it right to the seatbelt bolt and haven't had any problems at all. I never even gets warm when playing really loud. Think about the groun this way: there is much less resistance in grounding to the chassi because the chassis acts as one really really really big wire b utilizing the entire metal structure. Grounding back to the amp is jus going to increase the resistance by having to run the entre wire th length of the subburban. The only part of grounding to the chassis tha is restrictive is where the negative battery wire connects to th chassis, they often use thin gauge that is sufficient for the vehicl if no upgrades are added. So, to answer your question, go ahead an ground it to the chassis. Give it a try, if that doesn't work, we'l find another solution - timboritu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...threadid=17837 |
#17
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long ground back to battery
speaking of being made for jobs.... is this why your mouth is so "purty"??
-- fhlh..... this post was intended for usenet, if you are reading this post on a webforum it is because someone has STOLEN it to use as content to draw traffic to his site... please acquire a proper newsreader if you want to access rec.audio.car and rethink your patronage of said site... THIS SIG WAS STOLEN FROM SANCHO... **** it! "Pug Fugley" wrote in message link.net... I wouldn't take your job. You're made for it. |
#18
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long ground back to battery
"timboritus" wrote in message s.com... The ground could be one of the problems. I have the 500/1 and I ground it right to the seatbelt bolt and haven't had any problems at all. It never even gets warm when playing really loud. Think about the ground this way: there is much less resistance in grounding to the chassis because the chassis acts as one really really really big wire by utilizing the entire metal structure. Grounding back to the amp is just going to increase the resistance by having to run the entre wire the length of the subburban. The only part of grounding to the chassis that is restrictive is where the negative battery wire connects to the chassis, they often use thin gauge that is sufficient for the vehicle if no upgrades are added. So, to answer your question, go ahead and ground it to the chassis. Give it a try, if that doesn't work, we'll find another solution. -- timboritus Damn, finally someone around here with some sense. |
#19
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long ground back to battery
true, but then why not shorten your power wire to 1ft
also?? Pug Fugley wrote: "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... BZZZZT Length of ground is not important as long as the amp has plenty of current... Its common for installers to use a short ground and get the frame but a long run all the way to the battery is also acceptable if the power and ground wires are of sufficient size to supply plenty of juice... A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire? What installer school did you go to..?? A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix. Eddie Runner Pug Fugley wrote: "thelizman" wrote in message ... kkmike wrote: I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. This is a misnomer. It doesn't matter how long your ground is. BZZZZT! Wrong answer. The ground wire should be no more than 1 foot long. That's one of the first things you learn in installer classes..you should check into some. |
#20
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
What installer school did you go to..?? A place called Mobile Dynamics in Phoenix. Lots a money for nothing IMO.... I have had three installers that went there... 1st one, was working for me for a week or so, we were busy with several customers... I instructed this installer to do a simple task and I didnt think I needed to watch him closely cause he did goto a fancy pants installer school.... I told him to get in this pick up that was in the shop and pull the stereo out of it.... Figgured he could handle that right..?? Later, the other installer and myself get done with the imediate things and I goto check on the schooled installer... Where is he??? The truck he was supposed to be working on is GONE!!! Its not in the shop, we look outside and he is sitting in the truck relaxing! WTF!!!! What the hell are you doing out there....???? His reply. "You told me to pull it out.." DUH!! My other installer was laughing so hard he could hardy stand up...He said Look what wasting your money on a GOOD installer school will get cha... ha ha ha Next guy (yearslater) I hired TWO guys that went to the school together.. Number 1 couldnt even wire a relay... Number two was worse.... Need I say more..?? Eddie Runner |
#21
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long ground back to battery
"Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... true, but then why not shorten your power wire to 1ft also?? If it was 1 ft from the battery, I would. |
#22
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long ground back to battery
Here's a reply I got from JL when I asked why the owners manual reccommended
short ground, but the installer was told otherwise: Mike, Thank you for your interest in JL Audio. In the owners manual, you are going to find a recommendation to have the ground as short as possible. This can be done with most vehicle and most audio amplifiers. You can run a ground wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire, there is no problem. We have done some testing on all different vehicles. This test was to measure the resistance of frames and uni-body constructed vehicles. The best are the vehicles that have a true frame rail, like your Suburban. You want the ground wire from the amps to be mounted to the frame. You also want to upgrade the factory ground return wire. This runs from the negative side of the battery to the frame. Now the best results only equaled the same resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg. This installer made sure that the ground return of the amplifiers do have the least amount of resistance. This preventing any type of voltage choke. There is no problem doing this. As long as it is done correct. In this case, I am assuming it was. |
#23
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
"timboritus" wrote in message s.com... The ground could be one of the problems. I have the 500/1 and I ground it right to the seatbelt bolt and haven't had any problems at all. It never even gets warm when playing really loud. Think about the ground this way: there is much less resistance in grounding to the chassis because the chassis acts as one really really really big wire by utilizing the entire metal structure. Grounding back to the amp is just going to increase the resistance by having to run the entre wire the length of the subburban. The only part of grounding to the chassis that is restrictive is where the negative battery wire connects to the chassis, they often use thin gauge that is sufficient for the vehicle if no upgrades are added. So, to answer your question, go ahead and ground it to the chassis. Give it a try, if that doesn't work, we'll find another solution. -- timboritus Damn, finally someone around here with some sense. You're a moron. He just pointed out that the floor pan was equivalent to a large gauge wire. This in no way supports your stupidity that a "short" ground wire is "better". He also neglected to mention (though I'm sure it's on his mind) that you should opt to upgrade the factory ground to a larger gauge. Now, run along little man. -- thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either" teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than usenet without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
#24
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long ground back to battery
news.dls.net wrote:
Here's a reply I got from JL when I asked why the owners manual reccommended short ground, but the installer was told otherwise: Sounds to me like he did his best not to call the installer "full of ****". But what he said was correct, and supports what I've been saying. I suppose Pug ****ley is going to argue with JL tech support now. -- thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either" teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than usenet without the express written permission of the author is forbidden Mike, Thank you for your interest in JL Audio. In the owners manual, you are going to find a recommendation to have the ground as short as possible. This can be done with most vehicle and most audio amplifiers. You can run a ground wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire, there is no problem. We have done some testing on all different vehicles. This test was to measure the resistance of frames and uni-body constructed vehicles. The best are the vehicles that have a true frame rail, like your Suburban. You want the ground wire from the amps to be mounted to the frame. You also want to upgrade the factory ground return wire. This runs from the negative side of the battery to the frame. Now the best results only equaled the same resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg. This installer made sure that the ground return of the amplifiers do have the least amount of resistance. This preventing any type of voltage choke. There is no problem doing this. As long as it is done correct. In this case, I am assuming it was. .. |
#25
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long ground back to battery
"news.dls.net" wrote in message ... Here's a reply I got from JL when I asked why the owners manual reccommended short ground, but the installer was told otherwise: Mike, Thank you for your interest in JL Audio. In the owners manual, you are going to find a recommendation to have the ground as short as possible. This can be done with most vehicle and most audio amplifiers. You can run a ground wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire, there is no problem. We have done some testing on all different vehicles. This test was to measure the resistance of frames and uni-body constructed vehicles. The best are the vehicles that have a true frame rail, like your Suburban. You want the ground wire from the amps to be mounted to the frame. You also want to upgrade the factory ground return wire. This runs from the negative side of the battery to the frame. Now the best results only equaled the same resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg. Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to keep the ground wire short. When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with. |
#26
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long ground back to battery
You are too much of a newbie ti remember when JL asked
me to rewrite thier web tutorials because of all the erors on them.. Pug Fugley wrote: Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to keep the ground wire short. When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with. |
#27
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long ground back to battery
I have read every post below on this. This is one of the best debates I
have ever seen. So far, nobody thinks they are wrong. Keep it going. It is quite helpful to boot. "kkmike" wrote in message om... I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. And it's a long run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Well now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that shouldn't be a problem?) I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there. So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short, or just add the short and leave the long ones too? Thanks, Mike |
#28
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long ground back to battery
"Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... You are too much of a newbie ti remember when JL asked me to rewrite thier web tutorials because of all the erors on them.. Actually I was around BEFORE JL Audio, moron! My design team had quite a hand in Lucio Proni's Mustang back in the late 80's for your information. You may remove your foot from your mouth now. Pug Fugley wrote: Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to keep the ground wire short. When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with. |
#29
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long ground back to battery
"Douglas Conder" wrote in message news:EVS%b.3631$3X2.1866@okepread04... I have read every post below on this. This is one of the best debates I have ever seen. So far, nobody thinks they are wrong. Keep it going. It is quite helpful to boot. I think the problem is a lack of common sense. These morons around here get too caught up in what the read in magazines and the internet and they don't stop to think. There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as short as possible. "kkmike" wrote in message om... I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. And it's a long run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Well now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that shouldn't be a problem?) I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there. So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short, or just add the short and leave the long ones too? Thanks, Mike |
#30
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long ground back to battery
is that sposed to impress me..??
I startedinstallin in 1974... your still a newbie to me.... feel lucky we started this stuff for you so you could build competition cars... ;-) Pug Fugley wrote: "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... You are too much of a newbie ti remember when JL asked me to rewrite thier web tutorials because of all the erors on them.. Actually I was around BEFORE JL Audio, moron! My design team had quite a hand in Lucio Proni's Mustang back in the late 80's for your information. You may remove your foot from your mouth now. Pug Fugley wrote: Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to keep the ground wire short. When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with. |
#31
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
Learn to read. Wire gauges are the S A M E. " A long ground CAN work, but a short ground works better. Current likes to travel the path of least resistance, so which do you think would have the least resistance..20 feet of wire or 1 foot of wire?" that was the entirety of your argument... never do you mention gauge...it is obvious that you gave it no mind... as 20 feet of 1/0ga has markedly less resistance than 1 foot of 8ga for example... 1 foot of 4 gauge has less resistance than 20 feet of 4 gauge, pug's a dumbass. It's simple math. that is glaringly obvious... much like your failure to specify was... your answer was just plain wrong... a shorter ground is not inherently better... a suggestion that you must increase the guage of the wire to compensate for greater distance (like the competent folks were kind enough to offer) would have been a proper response... -- sancho |
#32
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long ground back to battery
there could be if the car chassis near the amp
is old, rusty, or corroded.... Fact is, like I said in the beginning... It doesnt matter where you ground it or how long the ground wire is as long as it is capable of handling enough current for the amplifier..... Eddie Runner Pug Fugley wrote: "Douglas Conder" wrote in message news:EVS%b.3631$3X2.1866@okepread04... I have read every post below on this. This is one of the best debates I have ever seen. So far, nobody thinks they are wrong. Keep it going. It is quite helpful to boot. I think the problem is a lack of common sense. These morons around here get too caught up in what the read in magazines and the internet and they don't stop to think. There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as short as possible. "kkmike" wrote in message om... I had a new amp installed yesterday (JL 450/4) - my 2nd amp, and since the 1st amp (JL 500/1) was running off 8 gauge wire, they wanted to run 4 gauge. So now I have 2 runs of 4 gauge, 1 to each amp; but he also ran 2 runs of ground back to the battery. I have read numerous times that ground should be short and to the chassis. And it's a long run since this is a Suburban. He said JL recommends grounding these amps directly back to the battery and so that is what he did. Well now I have alternator whine that fluctuates with the speed of the engine; worse the higher the gains are set. The RCA's & speaker wire don't run along with the power wires, so I'm hopeing I can rule that out (they do cross where they all meet up at the amps, but that shouldn't be a problem?) I don't want to go back and leave the car there again, it's a pain - I am skilfull enough to run a ground - there is a seat bolt right there. So I have 2 questions; Is the ground probably the problem? And if so, should I disconnect the long ground and replace it with the short, or just add the short and leave the long ones too? Thanks, Mike |
#33
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
to find a recommendation to have the ground as short as possible. This can be done with most vehicle and most audio amplifiers. You can run a ground wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire, there is no problem. We have done some testing on all different vehicles. This test was to measure the resistance of frames and uni-body constructed vehicles. The best are the vehicles that have a true frame rail, like your Suburban. You want the ground wire from the amps to be mounted to the frame. You also want to upgrade the factory ground return wire. This runs from the negative side of the battery to the frame. Now the best results only equaled the same resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg. Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to keep the ground wire short. holy ****... you just don't get it... "You can run a ground wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis of a vehicle." "Now the best results only equaled the same resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg." READ, ****wit -- sancho |
#34
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
Actually I was around BEFORE JL Audio, moron! My design team had quite a hand in Lucio Proni's Mustang back in the late 80's for your information. You may remove your foot from your mouth now. i though you've only been in the industry for 12 years... "I've been in the INDUSTRY for 12 years." 2004 - 12 = 1992 was 1992 in the 80's? -- sancho gettin confux0red |
#35
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
I think the problem is a lack of common sense. yes, your lack of it... These morons around here get too caught up in what the read in magazines and the internet and they don't stop to think. There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as short as possible. you just claimed to agree with a post that stated "This (running a ground to the battery) can be better then grounding to the chassis of a vehicle" and "Now the best results only equaled the same resistance as a 4awg wire. Uni-bodies are like an 8awg." humour me... which would be 'better'? a short ground to a unibody chassis that equated to an 8ga run back to the battery or a run of 4 awg back to the battery? there's not one single good reason not to use a long ground wire of sufficient gauge... -- sancho |
#36
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
Well well..looks like I'm proven right..AGAIN. Even JL says it's best to keep the ground wire short. When are you young punks going to learn? I can't be ****ed with. You're a ****ing illiterate. From the letter "You can run a ground wire back to the battery. This can be better then grounding to the chassis of a vehicle. As long as the ground wire is as large as the positive wire, there is no problem." Go home little man. -- thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either" teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than usenet without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
#37
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long ground back to battery
Douglas Conder wrote:
I have read every post below on this. This is one of the best debates I have ever seen. So far, nobody thinks they are wrong. The problem is, the one person in this thread who disagrees with everyone else has no facts to back himself up. But hey, the most important thing is that you learn something. -- thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either" teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than usenet without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
#38
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long ground back to battery
In article ,
Eddie Runner wrote: there could be if the car chassis near the amp is old, rusty, or corroded.... Fact is, like I said in the beginning... It doesnt matter where you ground it or how long the ground wire is as long as it is capable of handling enough current for the amplifier..... .... when everything is working properly, anyway. You better hope that the wire from the battery terminal to the vehicle chassis doesn't fall off or develop a bad connection. Work out what the return path for the current from the starter motor is in that scenario... You argued that one back in '95, remember? And do you know about bridging amps yet? big grin That said, I had noise (injector firing pulses, go figure) in the subs in my own car. I had to run a return power wire from the amps back to the common earth point for the system on the firewall to get rid of it. I have a wiring diagram for the car so I went over all the loom earth points but all were OK. There are some redundant earth paths in the loom, maybe one of them is broken internally. I could probably have tracked it down eventually but life's too short. In Mike's case I'd try grounding the amps to the chassis and see what happens. I'd also look very carefully at the wire from the battery to the chassis / body - if it's small or has bad connections he's going to get alternator noise appearing between the battery terminal and chassis. This will go down the ground wire to the amps and back on the RCA shield to the head unit and then to chassis. I suspect you know that very well, but I haven't seen it expressed in a way useful to Mike so far in this thread. And as for Pug's statement: There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as short as possible. Sooner or later it'll bite you in the butt, Pug. You claim to have been around car audio a long time, you ought to have learnt by now that there are no absolute rules, apart from the One Rule: You can't break Ohm's Law and get away with it. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand |
#39
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long ground back to battery
Sancho, you always catch em liein about dates...
Hell 12 years, 4 years, its all so short a time compared to how long I been doing it I would have never noticed his discrepencies.... ha ha ha Way to go Sancho sancho wrote: Pug Fugley wrote: Actually I was around BEFORE JL Audio, moron! My design team had quite a hand in Lucio Proni's Mustang back in the late 80's for your information. You may remove your foot from your mouth now. i though you've only been in the industry for 12 years... "I've been in the INDUSTRY for 12 years." 2004 - 12 = 1992 was 1992 in the 80's? -- sancho gettin confux0red |
#40
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long ground back to battery
Pug Fugley wrote:
I think the problem is a lack of common sense. For once, you've got something right. There's not one single good reason why NOT to use a ground wire that's as short as possible. That wasn't the argument dipstick. You said "a short ground works better". This is not the case. In fact, if you read the note from JL tech, you'll realize that in some vehicles a short ground is detrimental due to the construction of unibody vehicles utilising cold-rolled double-steel sheet. You also ignored the other obvious issues - that even if the chassis is unimpeded, you still only have a measly 8 - 10 gauge factory ground from the battery - terminal to the chassis - and on the fender at that. Unless you upgrade the factory ground, jump it to the firewall, and upgrade the factory + from the alternator to the voltage regulator/battery, then you dinky 1 foot ground is worth ****. Just like your overall knowledge of car audio. -- thelizman "I didn't steal the FAQ either" teamROCS Car Audio Forums http://www.teamrocs.com/caraudio/ teamROCS Car Audio News http://www.teamrocs.com/news/ "It's about the music, stupid" This post is Copyright (C) 2004. Reproduction of its content anywhere other than usenet without the express written permission of the author is forbidden. |
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