Is it ever possible to obtain a decent recording of solo classical
guitar in a room with bad acoustics?

I have been experimenting with various mics - all cardoids - and
various mic positions but without much success. The main problem is the
sound getting harsh and uneven when the mic is placed close enough not
to hear the room.

For acoustic guitars I hear of people getting good results with the
Schoeps MK 41 close up. But the classical guitar (the high end ones)
produces considerably more sound pressure and a wider image than
acoustic guitars, and I wonder whether close miking with a hyper would
work..

I really don't have a way to audition an MK 41 (I only tried the MK 4),
and must rely on the assistance of those who know this mic from
experience. Of course I am not restricted to the MK 41 and would
appreciate any further recommendations and suggestions.

Thanks!

H. Khalil wrote:
Is it ever possible to obtain a decent recording of solo classical
guitar in a room with bad acoustics?

Possible, yes. It might not sound like the original guitar, but you
might get somehting that you consider decent. You'll never know if you
don't try. Do you have something against trying to improve the acoustic
situation? You don't always have to start with a bulldozer.

I have been experimenting with various mics - all cardoids - and
various mic positions but without much success. The main problem is the
sound getting harsh and uneven when the mic is placed close enough not
to hear the room.

This is to be expected from cardioids. Try an omni. Also, try to find a
place where it's not objectionable to hear the room. Or you could try
another room. Can you record at some other time, like after the
neighbors stop mowing their lawns and the traffic dies down so you can
work in a different room?

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 06:55:32 -0400, H. Khalil wrote
(in article .com):

Is it ever possible to obtain a decent recording of solo classical
guitar in a room with bad acoustics?

It's very difficult.

I have been experimenting with various mics - all cardoids - and
various mic positions but without much success. The main problem is the
sound getting harsh and uneven when the mic is placed close enough not
to hear the room.

What mics and preamps are you choosing?

For acoustic guitars I hear of people getting good results with the
Schoeps MK 41 close up. But the classical guitar (the high end ones)
produces considerably more sound pressure and a wider image than
acoustic guitars, and I wonder whether close miking with a hyper would
work..

My D28S Martin is pretty loud. I don't have any problems with it and a cmc641

I really don't have a way to audition an MK 41 (I only tried the MK 4),
and must rely on the assistance of those who know this mic from
experience. Of course I am not restricted to the MK 41 and would
appreciate any further recommendations and suggestions.

Thanks!

The cmc641 (MK 41 capsule as you describe) is very well suited for classical
guitars because it doesn't hype the top end as most SD mics do. That means
the 1st and 2nd strings don't sound plasticky.

In addition, it's a wonderful sounding mic that ignores a LOT of the room. I
have an instrumental up in my OnLine archive called "Look Ma, I'm Flying."
One Martin, one Schoeps cmc641. The mic was about a foot away from the upper
bout. Pointed pretty much at it. I EQed the current mix a little warm because
there were no other instruments.

Get the Schoeps. If your room is THAT bad, find another room or fix yours.

Regards,

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Is it ever possible to obtain a decent recording of solo classical
guitar in a room with bad acoustics?

Depends on what you mean by bad acoustics. If it's just too dry, that
can be worked on with a good reverb. If there's a lot of outside noise,
you really need to find a different space. If the room is small enough
that anywhere you place a mic is in the diffuse field & that diffuse
field is unpleasant sounding, you would have to alter the room
acoustics to damp one or two modes of reflections.

I have been experimenting with various mics - all cardoids - and
various mic positions but without much success. The main problem is the
sound getting harsh and uneven when the mic is placed close enough not
to hear the room.

Classical guitar is pretty sensitive to overly close miking. From this
room description, it sounds like you need to deaden some early
reflections. If it's a low ceiling, place an area rug under your chair
& see if that helps. Otherwise hang a blanket on the nearest wall, pull
any curtains closed, put an upholstered sofa between you & the wall
behind you.

For acoustic guitars I hear of people getting good results with the
Schoeps MK 41 close up. But the classical guitar (the high end ones)
produces considerably more sound pressure and a wider image than
acoustic guitars, and I wonder whether close miking with a hyper would
work..

The image isn't any wider than a steel string guitar because the source
isn't physically any bigger, but, yes, a big rasgueado chord can have a
pretty big peak, only matched by a huge Bartok pizz on steel strings

I really don't have a way to audition an MK 41 (I only tried the MK 4),
and must rely on the assistance of those who know this mic from
experience. Of course I am not restricted to the MK 41 and would
appreciate any further recommendations and suggestions.

The MK2 omnis are worth considering too, although the room will be more
of a consideration then. Sounds like the room is your biggest issue,
not your mics. You really should pull back a good distance from a
classical guitar to minimize nail noise, string squeaks, etc. And for
that you need a space that at worst doesn't intrude on the recording,
or at best contributes warmth & pleasant ambience.

Scott Fraser

H. Khalil wrote:
Is it ever possible to obtain a decent recording of solo classical
guitar in a room with bad acoustics?

No.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mike Rivers schrieb:

You'll never know if you don't try. Do you have something against trying to improve the acoustic situation?

I did try, but failed so far. Currently the only way for me to improve
the acoustic situation is to move to a new place altogether. I was
hoping to achieve good results in my current place, but begin to
realize how difficult it is.

This is to be expected from cardioids. Try an omni.

I was under the impression that an omni cannot not be made to work in a
room so bad that even cardoids fail. Or am I missing something?

Ty Ford schrieb:

It's a wonderful sounding mic that ignores a LOT of the room.

Get the Schoeps. If your room is THAT bad, find another room or fix yours.


Would you still be recommending the MK 41, say over the MK 2, even
after I have changed to a better room?

Scott Fraser schrieb:

Depends on what you mean by bad acoustics. If it's just too dry, that
can be worked on with a good reverb. If there's a lot of outside noise,
you really need to find a different space. If the room is small enough
that anywhere you place a mic is in the diffuse field & that diffuse
field is unpleasant sounding, you would have to alter the room
acoustics to damp one or two modes of reflections.

It's not too dry and the outside noise is manageable, so I suppose it's
the room acoustics that needs to be treated.

Classical guitar is pretty sensitive to overly close miking. From this
room description, it sounds like you need to deaden some early
reflections. If it's a low ceiling, place an area rug under your chair
& see if that helps. Otherwise hang a blanket on the nearest wall, pull
any curtains closed, put an upholstered sofa between you & the wall
behind you.

I have tried these measures but with little effect. It really seems the
room is just too small for the big guitar sound.

Sounds like the room is your biggest issue,
not your mics. You really should pull back a good distance from a
classical guitar to minimize nail noise, string squeaks, etc. And for
that you need a space that at worst doesn't intrude on the recording,
or at best contributes warmth & pleasant ambience.

I am afraid you're right!

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 05:23:20 -0400, H. Khalil wrote
(in article .com):


Ty Ford schrieb:

It's a wonderful sounding mic that ignores a LOT of the room.

Get the Schoeps. If your room is THAT bad, find another room or fix yours.


Would you still be recommending the MK 41, say over the MK 2, even
after I have changed to a better room?


Absolutley

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com